Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[dovepa via EV]

erator as 
well, there are lots of DC motor systems that *do* have effective 
regen... when it was designed in to begin with.

> A lot of good and expensive silicon has become smoke trying to handle regen.
> Very few commercial EV controllers today try to do it.  Zapi is the only
> brand I know of, but there may be others.

Zapi, Sevcon, GE, Cableform, and more... Even Curtis has a regen 
controller (the 1221R).

> While I'm not in the market for a $150k high performance sports car,
> if I were, I wouldn't buy one with a DC series motor.

I think that's exactly it. DC is not flashy and high-tech enough for an 
expensive luxury sports car.  You want cutting-edge style, you want 
flash and glamor; you want to make a statement.

-- 
Knowledge is better than belief. Belief is when someone else does
your thinking.  -- anonymous
--
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[dovepa via EV]

) Be able for me to drive back and forth to work (12.6 miles each way.
>Allows me to claim "daily driver" and gain daily exposure, free
>advertising, on the road).
>
>Obviously it would be great to exceed these but if I can meet all of
>these
>I will consider my prototype car a success.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

p it and start all over
from ground zero.

Finally, this business is simply a platform so that I can continue
designing, building and racing cars. I current own a ICE drag car that has
produces 1000 horsepower on the engine alone and another 600 horsepower on
nitrous oxide (two stages, 300 horsepower each). If I could, I would simply
drop that engine in my prototype and be done with it. But the fuel
consumption could almost be measured in gallons per mile instead of miles
per gallon.

Oh yeah... with that in mind, I view this prototype and its successor as
"throw away cars used as learning tools". IF they become very successful I
MIGHT change my mind. But, even so, the REAL success of my business will be
based on my third car. And $150k won't even come close to buying one of
those. Again, this realization didn't even come to me until I had a new
vision of my "target customer" inspired by both the business advisers and
someone that used to build custom exotic cars. The latter actually told me
my entire business was misguided and, at best, would only be moderately
successful but  not unbelievably successful. And he was right because he
learned it from the hindsight that can only come from first hand
experience! . (See, I DO listen to advice!) ;^)

Again, thanks for your input. All of your points are completely valid IF I
was going the route you describe.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

formance numbers 
following
the NEDRA model. I have already talked to John Metric and priced out 
the EV
drivetrain long ago, I just need to "Pull the trigger" on that order. 
So I
will be following the path of Zombie 222 but targeting a different 
customer

with a different product.

If you haven't, go to the Zombie 222 site. They have expanded from the 
"EV
DC Motor Drag Race Musclecar" into "We will build whatever you want, AC 
or
DC". But their DC Drag Car got them the initial publicity they needed. 
Then

they expanded to set speed records as well (Texas Mile) and gained even
more exposure. Besides, my "Marketing Plan" will also be fun! 8^)

BTW, this prototype only represents my first and second car. The car 
that
will actually allow my business to be successful will be my third car. 
It
will be a COMPLETELY different design and will leverage what I learned 
to
date and set my "market niche". Again, something I learned AFTER I 
already
had too much time and money invested in this prototype. It makes more 
sense
to do the final 25% on my current car than to scrap it and start all 
over

from ground zero.

Finally, this business is simply a platform so that I can continue
designing, building and racing cars. I current own a ICE drag car that 
has
produces 1000 horsepower on the engine alone and another 600 horsepower 
on
nitrous oxide (two stages, 300 horsepower each). If I could, I would 
simply

drop that engine in my prototype and be done with it. But the fuel
consumption could almost be measured in gallons per mile instead of 
miles

per gallon.

Oh yeah... with that in mind, I view this prototype and its successor 
as
"throw away cars used as learning tools". IF they become very 
successful I
MIGHT change my mind. But, even so, the REAL success of my business 
will be

based on my third car. And $150k won't even come close to buying one of
those. Again, this realization didn't even come to me until I had a new
vision of my "target customer" inspired by both the business advisers 
and
someone that used to build custom exotic cars. The latter actually told 
me

my entire business was misguided and, at best, would only be moderately
successful but  not unbelievably successful. And he was right because 
he

learned it from the hindsight that can only come from first hand
experience! . (See, I DO listen to advice!) ;^)

Again, thanks for your input. All of your points are completely valid 
IF I

was going the route you describe.
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[EVDL] Series motor overspeed protection

[- - via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Gov. Brown $65/yr CA-Roadtax-Fee for all (not just plugins)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 15 Jan 2016 at 1:23, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> oeThose who have vehicles that don't use any gasoline aren't paying the
> gas tax and they're getting to use our roads, Assemblywoman Catherine
> Baker told KPIX 5 [TV] on Sunday.

Oh, the horror.

Guess what else they aren't doing: contributing to your air pollution.  Get 
a clue, Baker.

> 
> Baker is proposing a fee on electric vehicles, instead of the governor's $65
> fee. 

Yeah, that's real smart.  Discourage EV usage.  Get a clue, Baker.

Left hand, meet right hand.  Oh, sorry, I forgot; left and right can't ever  
cooperate on anything here in the US.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

t;Screw it... just build SOMETHING!"
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Re: [EVDL] Over-speed protection for a series motor ...

[brucedp5 via EV]

[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Series-motor-overspeed-protection-tp4679797.html
]

The evdl member must be new as their email is incorrectly set to send out
their text as a html attachment (no one can easily read your posts). As our
beloved evdl.org sys admin would say, ***Please change your email settings
to only send as plain ASCII text (not html, nor as an attachment).

I pulled down the html attachment and paste it for all to read:

-
I recently bought an EV conversion that uses an ADC 9 inch series wound
motor and a Curtis controller. The original owner wanted to add a motor
speed sensor and a way to shut down the controller if the speed was too high
(as in someone reving it in neutral), but that hasn't been done.

It seems pretty easy to add a speed sensor and a circuit that will over ride
the "throttle" pot and kill power to the motor, but I'm wondering how fast
it needs to react. I'd like to average the speed over a few pulses from the
speed sensor (to reduce the impact of noise) but still shut off fast enough
to save the motor. Any ideas?
Bill
-

Bill,
because you did not subscribe to the evdl with your name (which means your
posts do not easily state who we are talking to), *Please always include
your name (the same point of reference) in each post you make.

Please tell us more details of your conversion: make, model, year, and how
you are driving it (on flat roads & highways, or up in mountains at lower
speeds, etc.).

The converter than made my former S-10 Blazer conversion EV [
http://brucedp.150m.com/blazer/
] warned me to be careful of over rev'ing the AdvancedDC 9" motor they used.
Except for when I was proofing/testing a new-prototype for a startup
controller company (Auburn C600), I never had to really spend much effort to
worry about over rev'ing the motor. It is only during some mountain-climbing
driving when that proto-controller went full on (fried) that I had to pull
the red-knob kill-power switch, and I easily pulled-over coasting to a stop.
A tow home eventually got the proto-controller issue resolved (they replaced
it).

At one time, I had a converter check the motor brushes and he found with all
the 'anywhere everywhere' long trip driving I had done, the brushes were
fine and still had years to go before they needed replacing. He did not
report any damage like over speeding, etc. So I can feel safe in saying that
I drove that Blazer EV for 15+ years and never had a e-motor over-speed
issue during daily/normal driving.

If the previous owner put the fear of God in you, perhaps if you do not have
a kill-power switch, you ought to install one. It came in handy more than
that one instance.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.150m.com}

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Re: [EVDL] Series motor overspeed protection

[Bill C. via EV]

>The evdl member must be new as their email is incorrectly set to send out
their text as a html attachment 

Sorry about that, my hosting provider recently changed their webmail system
and wiped out all the previous settings for text vs HTML, sender's name etc.
I think it's fixed now.

>Please tell us more details of your conversion: make, model, year, and how
you are driving it.

It's a 2002 Ford Focus with and ADC 9 inch motor and Curtis controller,
driven mostly on flat roads. It's wired to open the main contactor when the
accelerator is released, so I'm not too worried about shutting it off if the
controller fails. I'm concerned about shutting off the motor if the
accelerator is pressed and the clutch is in or the transmission is in
neutral. I know not to do that, but it will be driven by a state inspection
technician and possibly other people not familiar with EV conversions.

Bill


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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 15 Jan 2016 at 12:52, Jack Wendel via EV wrote:

>  I just need a seat, steering wheel, pedals, enough crude
> instrumentation to ensure I'm not damaging anything and VERY dark
> tinted windows! 

Well, it worked for GM with the Volt. If memory serves, they showed early 
prototypes with what amounted to golf car motors and controllers.  They (the 
cars, I mean) could barely move under electric power.  

Would the trade publication reporters who gave them a pass for this have 
done the same for anyone but GM?  Ehh, I'll have to get back to you on that.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Series motor overspeed protection

[Lee Hart via EV]

Please tell us more details of your conversion: make, model, year, and how

you are driving it.


Bill C. via EV wrote:

It's a 2002 Ford Focus with and ADC 9 inch motor and Curtis controller,
driven mostly on flat roads. It's wired to open the main contactor when the
accelerator is released, so I'm not too worried about shutting it off if the
controller fails. I'm concerned about shutting off the motor if the
accelerator is pressed and the clutch is in or the transmission is in
neutral. I know not to do that, but it will be driven by a state inspection
technician and possibly other people not familiar with EV conversions.


Hi Bill,

Welcome to the EVDL!

Being a 2002, your Escort may already has switches on the clutch, and 
transmission to detect neutral. They are there so you can't crank the 
engine with the car in gear and the clutch engaged. So, you can simply 
rewire these switches to limit motor RPM via the potbox resistance.


Note: These switches are in the 12v system. The Curtis potbox is in the 
high voltage system. So, you need a relay to provide isolation. Use the 
switches to control the coil of a 12v relay, and use the relay's 
contacts to switch a fixed resistor in place of the throttle pot. Pick 
this resistor so the motor still runs, but at low RPM.


--
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your thinking.  -- anonymous
--
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Here is what I got from John Metric. His initial comment is with respect to
the fact that I saw him interviewed on a TV show. A 12 second 1/4 mile time
 would be just fine. A 10 second time would be AWESOME. The problem is that
it would take slicks to hitthat 10 second time and I fear driveline carnage
would ensue due to the excessive torque of the two electric motors.

BTW, I originally asked him about two Warp 11s. He said they were overkill
for my project. They just added cost with no real payback.

With respect to batteries, he doesn't provide much detail. But my intial
thought was that "If they can fit batteries in a little Miata, surely I can
fit them in a Corvette!"

Yes, a Corvette is really heavy body to start with. I kind of thought he
would mention that he was asking about my Miata Conversion when I told him
how much it would take to go fast and how much to set records in drag
racing as I represent the National Electric Drag Racing Association. So far
since that show, I have gotten calls about converting a F250 pickup,. a
hummer, and a rock climber, now a corvette No miatas...

HOWEVER, I like a challenge...

First are we on the same page? You want to go fast at the dragstrip right?
or at the Indy 500? Two completely different things.
You want to be the fastest Corvette to highway speed but have a top speed
of 100mph, thats pretty easy.
You want to go 200mph land speed racing, very much more difficult request.

Can I ask you to give me a call. We can say 1000 things much faster over
the phone than a short email and this is a complicated subject.

Base parts only numbers for the cheapest build for a corvette at about
3500lbs final weight (which is about 1000lbs heavier than a miata
Conversion):
Two warp9 motors $4000
One Zilla Controller $5000
One drag racing battery pack $7,000

That should get you to the 12's like a real corvette.

Want to spend about another $5000 on batteries you could be in the 10's.

The real question is how much range you want, cause that's where the
project really balloons. With my drag racing hat on and the show about EV
Drag Racing, most people are disappointed in the range of drag racing pack.
10-20miles.  Of course, the one in my Miata makes 1000 battery horsepower
and has about a 40 mile range, but at a price.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

uarter mile times.  Sorry, I couldn't resist 8>).


Not from the numbers I have seen. But the bottom line is "Who cares?" I
know my target market couldn't care less. Most would consider racing
another car at least crazy if not downright stupid and irresponsible.
Again, different perspective than we have. Besides, if I want performance
I'll get a motorcycle.

Funny, I read about complaints from Tesla owners that they couldn't outrun
cars that they thought they should outrun on paper. Not in initial
acceleration but in passing power or what we call a "roll on".  Guess they
shoulda bought an ICE! Sorry, couldn't resist. ;^)
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Paul Dove via EV]

I can try to explain the significance.

I believe he uses Kokam LiPo cells. The have a very high energy density. They 
can operate continuously at 10 C but will cause heating and capacity loss... C 
being the capacity of the cell so a 2Ah cell can put out 20 amps continuous and 
up to 8 C without significant heating (around 50 degrees Celsius). 

The KOK 340 HSC can be operated at 20 C. The effect is that the user can tailor 
a pack to do what is needed without excessive size, weight, capacity and cost.

John has a very small powerful pack but without having a high capacity since 
he's drag racing.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 15, 2016, at 8:19 PM, jackinausti...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Paul replied: 
> 
>> John metric uses lithium polymer batteries like the ones used in quad 
>> copters.
> 
> Can you enlighten the ignorant on the significance of that? It doesn't mean 
> anything hing to me. 
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[via EV]

Thanks Paul. I had seen those C references on this list in the past but had no 
clue what the significance was. 

> On Jan 15, 2016, at 10:08 PM, Paul Dove  wrote:
> 
> I can try to explain the significance.
> 
> I believe he uses Kokam LiPo cells. The have a very high energy density. They 
> can operate continuously at 10 C but will cause heating and capacity loss... 
> C being the capacity of the cell so a 2Ah cell can put out 20 amps continuous 
> and up to 8 C without significant heating (around 50 degrees Celsius). 
> 
> The KOK 340 HSC can be operated at 20 C. The effect is that the user can 
> tailor a pack to do what is needed without excessive size, weight, capacity 
> and cost.
> 
> John has a very small powerful pack but without having a high capacity since 
> he's drag racing.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Jan 15, 2016, at 8:19 PM, jackinausti...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> Paul replied: 
>> 
>>> John metric uses lithium polymer batteries like the ones used in quad 
>>> copters.
>> 
>> Can you enlighten the ignorant on the significance of that? It doesn't mean 
>> anything hing to me. 
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[via EV]

Paul replied: 

> John metric uses lithium polymer batteries like the ones used in quad 
> copters. 

Can you enlighten the ignorant on the significance of that? It doesn't mean 
anything hing to me. 
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[EVDL] High specific power cells/packs (was:Leaf donor car?.....)

[Bill Dube via EV]

Folks talk about C-rate, but what you really care about is specific 
power. That is the maximum number of watts that a cell will put out, 
divided by it's weight. Power to weight is what it is all about. (A 
capacitor has phenomenal C rate, but only a _tiny_ capacity. What good 
does that do you at the end of the 1/4 mile?) A good quality car battery 
will put out 300 w/kg, just to give you a sense of scale for the number.


The high power and high capacity version of the A123 Systems cordless 
tool cells, 26650 M1 -B, can easily put out 50C. (Not to be confused 
with the factory seconds or "B" cells.) When warmed to the optimal 
temperature, they will put out over 70C. This is ~180+ amps from a 2.5 
a-hr cell. About 4500 w/kg.


If you need a lot of energy, then cordless tool cells are a bit small, 
so their hybrid pouch cells are more like it. Their hybrid pouch cells 
will put out 32 C (450 A from a 14 a-hr cell) continuously. This is what 
is in our land speed vehicle. About 2700 w/kg.


Their 20 a-hr "energy" pouch cell, which has smaller tabs and internal 
interconnects, will only put out about ~15C continuously. Larger under 
short duration loads. Basically, the tabs overheat and limit the 
current. These were originally built for the Volt.


The A123 Systems F1 cells are absolutely the king as far as specific 
power. No one makes anything even close. Their F1 18700 1.5 a-hr cell 
will put out an unbelievable 500 amps (continuous!) Over 20,000 w/kg. 
Over 300C. There newest cells for Formula 1 put out much higher numbers, 
but they won't even tell me the exact numbers.


The high capacity high power cordless tool cells cost about $8 each, and 
you have to weld a _lot_ of tabs together to build a drag racing pack. 
The upside is, these cells will last forever if properly cared for. Well 
over 15,000 cycles. The pouch cells will last awhile as well. I think 
their spec sheet says greater than 5000 cycles.


The pouch cells cost about $700 per kw-hr, (in quantity) and they are 
already built into a pack.


The F1 cells cost so much that if you have to ask, you simply can't 
afford them. They are insanely expensive.


Bill D.

On 1/15/2016 9:42 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

People who build racing packs, such as Lightning Motorcycle,
use brands not really available to "hobbyists/converters"
such as Enerdel.
Enerdel expects that their cells (in pairs, each on one side) are
sitting against a metal sheet that is heatsink for the cells, this is
brought out to the side and can be pressed against a surface that
conducts the heat away.

I asked Derek Barger from High Tech Systems and he did not want to
reveal
which pouch cells he is using and I did not want to press him, I was
happy enough that he would entertain me on my visit to his place and
discuss EVs and battery packs in general and his racing designs
specifically. He noted that he could reach extreme high power and energy
density because he did not need to contain the pouches, they never
swelled and never got hot, he only needed to stabilize them against the
vibration and G forces of racing.
He did include a BMS with his packs though.

Then there is the famous A123 20Ah pouch cell that sustains 20C, in
other words that small cell can dish out 400A and almost melt its own
tabs off.
I do believe that it needed containment (pressure from the side) to
avoid swelling up.
Just some more datapoints.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
   
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water

XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of via EV
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 8:21 PM
To: Paul Dove
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

Thanks Paul. I had seen those C references on this list in the past but
had no clue what the significance was.


On Jan 15, 2016, at 10:08 PM, Paul Dove  wrote:

I can try to explain the significance.

I believe he uses Kokam LiPo cells. The have a very high energy

density. They can operate continuously at 10 C but will cause heating
and capacity loss... C being the capacity of the cell so a 2Ah cell can
put out 20 amps continuous and up to 8 C without significant heating
(around 50 degrees Celsius).

The KOK 340 HSC can be operated at 20 C. The effect is that the user

can tailor a pack to do what is needed without excessive size, weight,
capacity and cost.

John has a very small powerful pack but without having a high capacity

since he's drag racing.

Sent from my 

Re: [EVDL] Series motor overspeed protection

[Cor van de Water via EV]

My EV truck does have an overspeed sensor (a sensor sitting next to the
rear shaft of the motor, which has a pulley for the steering pump belt
and that pulley has an extra screw which passes in front of the sensor,
so only one pulse per rotation, I believe though I did not bother to
inspect the pulley if it might have 2 or more bolt heads sticking out
that result in more pulses per rotation.

One of the ways to detect overspeed is to measure the distance between
two pulses from the sensor and compare that this is always at least a
certain minimum, if it gets too low the power must be cut back.
This can be done in a processor and a hardware timer measuring the time
between pulses, or even in a simple monostable multivibrator, first one
that is triggered by one edge of the pulse from the sensor and stretches
it by a configurable amount of time, such that when the max RPM is
reached the output no longer returns because it is re-triggered before
the pulse stretch finishes. It is easy to detect (by a second one) that
the signal level no longer returns and cut power.
Another nice feature build-in to my controller is a detection of
overcurrent. At a certain configurable maximum the power is reduced to
maintain the current at max, but if the current rises to a next
threshold level, the contactor is dropped.
Before closing the contactor (during starting) the controller also
senses whether the controller output is free floating and not stuck due
to blown transistor or fly back diode. Either will avoid starting and
these features have saved me from turning my motor into shrapnel or
blowing stuff up more than it already was, since my switching IGBT tends
to self-destruct once in a while due to errors in the layout of the
controller.
Note: this is the EV versoin of an old "forklift" DC controller, EVT-100

Hope this gives some ideas,

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill C. via EV
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 12:02 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Series motor overspeed protection

>The evdl member must be new as their email is incorrectly set to send
out
their text as a html attachment 

Sorry about that, my hosting provider recently changed their webmail
system
and wiped out all the previous settings for text vs HTML, sender's name
etc.
I think it's fixed now.

>Please tell us more details of your conversion: make, model, year, and
how
you are driving it.

It's a 2002 Ford Focus with and ADC 9 inch motor and Curtis controller,
driven mostly on flat roads. It's wired to open the main contactor when
the
accelerator is released, so I'm not too worried about shutting it off if
the
controller fails. I'm concerned about shutting off the motor if the
accelerator is pressed and the clutch is in or the transmission is in
neutral. I know not to do that, but it will be driven by a state
inspection
technician and possibly other people not familiar with EV conversions.

Bill


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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

People who build racing packs, such as Lightning Motorcycle,
use brands not really available to "hobbyists/converters"
such as Enerdel.
Enerdel expects that their cells (in pairs, each on one side) are
sitting against a metal sheet that is heatsink for the cells, this is
brought out to the side and can be pressed against a surface that
conducts the heat away.

I asked Derek Barger from High Tech Systems and he did not want to
reveal
which pouch cells he is using and I did not want to press him, I was
happy enough that he would entertain me on my visit to his place and
discuss EVs and battery packs in general and his racing designs
specifically. He noted that he could reach extreme high power and energy
density because he did not need to contain the pouches, they never
swelled and never got hot, he only needed to stabilize them against the
vibration and G forces of racing.
He did include a BMS with his packs though.

Then there is the famous A123 20Ah pouch cell that sustains 20C, in
other words that small cell can dish out 400A and almost melt its own
tabs off.
I do believe that it needed containment (pressure from the side) to
avoid swelling up. 
Just some more datapoints.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of via EV
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 8:21 PM
To: Paul Dove
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

Thanks Paul. I had seen those C references on this list in the past but
had no clue what the significance was. 

> On Jan 15, 2016, at 10:08 PM, Paul Dove  wrote:
> 
> I can try to explain the significance.
> 
> I believe he uses Kokam LiPo cells. The have a very high energy
density. They can operate continuously at 10 C but will cause heating
and capacity loss... C being the capacity of the cell so a 2Ah cell can
put out 20 amps continuous and up to 8 C without significant heating
(around 50 degrees Celsius). 
> 
> The KOK 340 HSC can be operated at 20 C. The effect is that the user
can tailor a pack to do what is needed without excessive size, weight,
capacity and cost.
> 
> John has a very small powerful pack but without having a high capacity
since he's drag racing.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Jan 15, 2016, at 8:19 PM, jackinausti...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> Paul replied: 
>> 
>>> John metric uses lithium polymer batteries like the ones used in
quad copters.
>> 
>> Can you enlighten the ignorant on the significance of that? It
doesn't mean anything hing to me. 
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Paul Dove via EV]

John metric uses lithium polymer batteries like the ones used in quad copters. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 15, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Jack Wendel via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> Here is what I got from John Metric. His initial comment is with respect to
> the fact that I saw him interviewed on a TV show. A 12 second 1/4 mile time
> would be just fine. A 10 second time would be AWESOME. The problem is that
> it would take slicks to hitthat 10 second time and I fear driveline carnage
> would ensue due to the excessive torque of the two electric motors.
> 
> BTW, I originally asked him about two Warp 11s. He said they were overkill
> for my project. They just added cost with no real payback.
> 
> With respect to batteries, he doesn't provide much detail. But my intial
> thought was that "If they can fit batteries in a little Miata, surely I can
> fit them in a Corvette!"
> 
> Yes, a Corvette is really heavy body to start with. I kind of thought he
> would mention that he was asking about my Miata Conversion when I told him
> how much it would take to go fast and how much to set records in drag
> racing as I represent the National Electric Drag Racing Association. So far
> since that show, I have gotten calls about converting a F250 pickup,. a
> hummer, and a rock climber, now a corvette No miatas...
> 
> HOWEVER, I like a challenge...
> 
> First are we on the same page? You want to go fast at the dragstrip right?
> or at the Indy 500? Two completely different things.
> You want to be the fastest Corvette to highway speed but have a top speed
> of 100mph, thats pretty easy.
> You want to go 200mph land speed racing, very much more difficult request.
> 
> Can I ask you to give me a call. We can say 1000 things much faster over
> the phone than a short email and this is a complicated subject.
> 
> Base parts only numbers for the cheapest build for a corvette at about
> 3500lbs final weight (which is about 1000lbs heavier than a miata
> Conversion):
> Two warp9 motors $4000
> One Zilla Controller $5000
> One drag racing battery pack $7,000
> 
> That should get you to the 12's like a real corvette.
> 
> Want to spend about another $5000 on batteries you could be in the 10's.
> 
> The real question is how much range you want, cause that's where the
> project really balloons. With my drag racing hat on and the show about EV
> Drag Racing, most people are disappointed in the range of drag racing pack.
> 10-20miles.  Of course, the one in my Miata makes 1000 battery horsepower
> and has about a 40 mile range, but at a price.
> -- next part --
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> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160115/068332f3/attachment.htm>
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Jack, 

A few thoughts here.

First, let me say that I'm not as negative on this idea as some here seem to 
be.  But I suggest that you try not to get too miffed at the naysayers.  
There's wisdom in what they say.  Hop in and grab what helps you, and leave 
the rest.

Second, I think your original question about using a Leaf drive has been 
pretty well answered.  A lot of the rest of this thread has dealt more with 
your business plan, which you weren't really asking about.

However, that's what I'm concerned with.

It's not entirely clear to me what you really want to do with this project.  
You may have to (I hope patiently) correct my impressions.  

It sounds like first and foremost you want to build a fast, exciting EV 
that's to your own liking.  Also, and possibly secondarily, you want to show 
it to potential investors and/or buyers in hopes of developing iterest in it 
as a limited-edition product targeted at (forgive me) people who have more 
money than sense.  ;-)

Your plan, on the surface, sounds great.  If the business idea flops, hey, 
you have the EV you always wanted!  However, I see a potential problem 
unrelated to things like whether you use an AC or DC drive.

Understand that I speak here not as a financial expert or business owner, 
but rather as a longtime EV enthusiast.  (I've been following EVs in one way 
or another since the mid-1960s.)  

Maybe because for a long time EVs were way out of the mainstream, and 
investors mostly didn't know much about them, the EV business has attracted 
a dismaying number of questionable people.

Probably the type we've seen most often here on this list is the "free 
energy" promoter.  Some of these guys sincerely think they've invented 
perpetual motion, when they're actually measuring something that isn't 
there.  Others are outright criminals.  Either way, they usually end up 
being prosecuted for fraud.

These are the folks who are going to demonstrate a revolutionary EV that 
runs forever without ever being plugged in - next week, next month, or next 
year.  They just need your investment to finish it, and then they'll have 
their highly promoted demonstration at Indy Speedway or wherever.  The 
automotive world will beat a path to their door.  They'll sell the design to 
GM, or the military, or some shadowy figure from Russia, or some oil company 
oligarch who wants to lock it up forever.  Whatever.  But for sure, you'll 
get your 10% cut of the immense profits!

Yeah, right.

Believe it or not, these people actually manage to get investors.

There are also the truly sincere EV lovers who are out to save the world 
with EVs.  You don't see these guys so much any more, now that mainstream 
automakers have actually (against all odds) started offering production EVs. 
However, they used to pop up regularly.  As has been mentioned, most wanted 
to convert ICEVs. A few wanted to build purpose-built EV. 

These guys always failed.  The ones with carefully designed business plans, 
those with large personal fortunes, and those who diversified their 
businesses, all lasted longer.  Some are still in business today.  

But eventually, they all failed at building EVs for sale.  They went  
bankrupt and saw their inventory auctioned off to pay the bills.  Or they 
padlocked the workshop and left the computer-rendered prototypes up on the 
website, hoping against hope that someday, some automaker would license the 
design, or a good-hearted fairy godmother would sprinkle them with fiscal 
fairy dust so they could go back to work.  Or they quietly sold most of the 
parts and prototypes, maybe keeping a favorite, and carried on with some 
other kind of business (EV related or not).

Either type of EV entrepreneur above is a money sink for investors.

No matter how sincere you are about this project, you may be dipping water 
from the well these folks have gradually poisoned over the years.  To a 
savvy investor (I'm assuming here that you ARE looking for investors), you 
somehow have to avoid giving the impression that you'd actually be just fine 
if this venture failed and you got to keep your dream EV.  You may have 
already kind of blown that, because that's the impression I've gotten from 
reading your posts here. 

Again, speaking only for myself, if I were an investor, I'd want to see 
evidence that you're really committed to making this a business - something 
other than saying "I'm committed to making this a business."  (GM said that 
too about the EV1, and you see where that went.)

I don't think that you can get away with a prototype that isn't close to 
what your production version will be.  Short range won't fly, for example.  
You'll have to be able to demonstrate that your stated goals are attainable. 
You'll have to be able to say, "It'll be this - or better."

You'll also need to make constant, documentable progress toward actually 
building the cars and selling them.  In my (admittedly naïve) view, this 
would mean moving ahead ASAP with 

[EVDL] EVLN: Another new GM EV right-hand-drivers won’t get> pre-Bolt

[brucedp5 via EV]

% Duh> Right-Hand-Drive markets don't have a CARB mandate (?!?) %

http://www.motoring.com.au/detroit-motor-show-another-new-gm-ev-wont-bolt-down-under-100888/
DETROIT MOTOR SHOW: Another new GM EV we won’t get
January 13, 2016  Bruce Newton

[images  
http://motoring.li.csnstatic.com/motoring/general/editorial/Chevy-Bolt-001-yjdl.jpg?width=1024
(side-front view)

http://motoring.li.csnstatic.com/motoring/general/editorial/Chevy-Bolt-004-s2dy.jpg?width=1024
(front seats)

http://motoring.li.csnstatic.com/motoring/general/editorial/Chevy-Bolt-002-egj0.jpg?width=1024
(rear seat)
]

Ground-breaking new Chevy Bolt plug-in is right-hand drive capable, but GM
has no plans to swap its steering wheel yet

It’s one of the most important General Motors models in many years, but the
battery-electric Chevrolet Bolt small car is a no-go for now when it comes
to right-hand drive sales and therefore a presence in Australia.

Combined with its decision not to offer the second-generation Volt plug-in
hybrid, Holden’s green cupboard looks decidedly bare for now.

After breaking cover at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas last
week, the Bolt was the star of the Chevrolet presentation on Monday (US
time) at the Detroit show. It will be built nearby and will go on sale later
this year, initially only in the USA.

The compact five-seat hatch is a purpose-designed EV powered by a
GM-developed electric motor and a lithium-ion battery pack with a new
“nickel-rich” chemistry. The drivetrain pumps out 147kW and 360Nm.

All that combines for a 320km driving range and a zippy sub-seven second
0-60mph acceleration time. The optional DC charging system can provide 150km
of range in 30 minutes, but a full recharge using the standard onboard
charger and 240-volt service takes nine hours, says GM.

But the figure GM is really pushing the is the purchase price around
$US30,000 (once US federal incentives are taken into account).

“The Bolt EV is the first EV that truly cracks the code of long range and
affordable pricing,” declared GM chairman and CEO Mary Barra on stage at
Detroit’s Cobo Hall on Monday.

You can read Todd Hallenbeck’s first drive impression of the Bolt EV here.

It might not be coming to Australia, but the Bolt does have a local design
connection, with the Melbourne-based General Motors studio doing the design
and build work on last year’s Bolt concept on behalf of the car’s GM Korea
homeroom.

But that wasn’t enough to get the car into Australian showrooms – or any
other RHD market for that matter.

“It’s early days,” said Chevrolet chief and former Holden boss Alan Batey.
“We had to look at it from a capital perspective very carefully, so we are
going to go where the biggest capital opportunity is first.

“Learn and then move, learn and then move. And that is what we are really
doing.”

Separately, GM global product chief Mark Reuss – another former Holden boss
— confirmed the theoretical capability of right-hand drive for Bolt.

“It’s a left-hand drive car we are showing here today, but it’s a new
platform and it’s very flexible and we haven’t made any announcements on
that yet,” he said.

And he threw the responsibility for Bolts ever driving on the left-side of
the road back on RHD markets such as Australia.

“You need to talk to the people running the market,” Reuss told Australian
journalists. “We engineer and design them and do all that and they decide
what they want.”
[© 2016 carsales.com]
...
http://www.caradvice.com.au/408790/chevrolet-bolt-ev-will-tackle-us-before-anywhere-else/
Chevrolet Bolt EV will tackle US before anywhere else
[January 13, 2016] … it won’t be available to other world markets for some
time, and a right-hand drive version is not on the cards at all …




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
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{brucedp.150m.com}

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[EVDL] EVLN: pre-Bolt specs & inside views and details

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://www.engineering.com/DesignerEdge/DesignerEdgeArticles/ArticleID/11294/Inside-the-Chevrolet-Bolt-EV.aspx
Inside the Chevrolet Bolt EV
January 12, 2016  Kagan Pittman

[images  / © General Motors
http://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/w_640,h_640,c_limit/Bolt_3_g0wagy.jpg
(transparent/x-ray view)

http://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/w_640,h_640,c_limit/Bolt_2_day3am.jpg
Chevrolet Bolt EV Battery System

http://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/w_640,h_640,c_limit/Bolt_1_omi3xk.jpg
(body-less chassis view)
]

GM recently released the specs on their 2017 Chevrolet Bolt Electric Vehicle
(EV) not long after unveiling the completed vehicle at CES 2016.

GM engineers designed the Bolt EV’s propulsion system to offer a range of
more than an estimated 200 miles on a single charge. The drive system uses a
single high capacity electric motor to power the car.

Constructed from steel and aluminum, the front-wheel drive, five-passenger,
five-door and all-electric crossover utility vehicle has a maximum speed of
91mph (145kph).

The electric motor has an offset gear and shaft configuration to meet the
200mi estimate and is capable of producing up to 266lbs-ft (360Nm) of torque
and 200hp (150kW).

With a final drive ratio of 7.05:1, the Bolt EV can go from 0-60mph in under
seven seconds.

The 2017 model will control power delivery with Chevrolet’s first Electronic
Precision Shift system. The shift and park-by-wire system will send
electronic signals to the Bolt EV’s drive unit to manage delivery of power
and torque based on drive mode selection and accelerator inputs. An
additional benefit of the new shift system comes from the added interior
space and layout.
Bolt EV’s Battery Offers over 200 miles of Range

The engineers behind the Bolt EV battery teamed up with strategic partner LG
Electronics to develop the vehicle’s new cell and battery pack.

Preliminary specifications detail a 60kWh lithium-ion battery pack with 288
lithium ion cells. The cells are arrayed in five sections with 10 modules
and 96 cell groups (three cells per group). The battery pack weighs 906lbs
(435kg) total.

“You usually have a battery cell that delivers either the desired levels of
energy or power, but not traditionally both,” said Gregory Smith, Bolt EV
battery pack engineering group manager. “With this cell design and chemistry
we were able to deliver a battery system with 160 kilowatts of peak power
and 60 kilowatt hours of energy.”

The Bolt EV’s battery, similar to the Chevrolet Volt’s, uses active thermal
conditioning to keep the battery at optimum temperature.

Cells are arranged in a “landscape” format, similar to Faraday Future’s
FFZERO1. Each cell measures 3.9in (100mm) high and 13.1in (338mm) wide.
Lower profile cell design allows for additional interior space.

The Bolt EV’s battery system is mated to a standard equipment 7.2kW onboard
charger for regular overnight charging from a 240-V wall box. A commute of
50mi can be recharged in under two hours. Alternatively, the optional DC
Fast Charging system with an SAE Combo connector can charge 90mi of range in
30 minutes.

However, outside temperatures may effect charging times.
Bolt EV utilizes Regenerative Braking for One Pedal Driving

The Bolt EV features a new regenerative braking system to allow for one
pedal driving.

Increased regenerative deceleration and software controls allow the vehicle
to slow down and come to a complete stop without using the brake pedal in
certain driving conditions. Drivers can bring the Bolt EV to a stop when
driving in “Low” mode or by holding the Regen on Demand paddle located on
the back of the steering wheel and lifting their foot off the accelerator.

However, wise drivers won’t rely on the technology in heavy rain or during
particular bad winter days. This is a technology best used cautiously – the
brake pedal will not be eliminated any time soon.

The Chevrolet Bolt EV is scheduled to enter production in October of 2016.
An exact list price has not yet been released, but speculation puts it
between USD$30,000-40,000 after government subsidies.

With key competitors in the Nissan Leaf, BMW i3, Ford Focus Electric, Kia
Soul EV, VW eGolf and Mercedes-Benz B-Class Electric, it’s looking certain
that the big auto names are ready for a market turning electric ...

For more information ... www.chevrolet.com.
[© 2016 ENGINEERING.com]



http://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-ev-specs-revealed-60-kwh-0-60-in-less-than-7-seconds/
Chevrolet Bolt EV Specs Revealed: 60 kWh, 0-60 In “Less Than” 7 Seconds –
Video
[January 11, 2016]  Jay Cole

[images
http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Chevrolet-Bolt-EV-engine.jpg
Chevrolet Bolt EV Motor – 266 lb-ft of torque/200 hp

http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/2017-Bolt-EV-specs-1.jpg
2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV Specs

http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/2017-Bolt-EV-specs-2b.jpg
(charge times/performance)

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Books on converting a car to ev?

[Daniel Eyk via EV]

 Daniel Eyk Vancouver, Wa. Electric S-10 project E-15 project E8M 

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 9:42 PM, John Lussmyer via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
 

 On Thu Jan 14 21:31:03 PST 2016 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>You will need power similar to the 650 hp of the stock Corvette.  The Tesla 
>P85D has over 700 hp for 4600 pounds, so in the ball park.  That 650 hp is 
>about 485 kW.  With a battery voltage of 400V, you need 1200 amps from your 
>batteries, through the controller, and into your motor(s).  That is serious 
>power!

And something like th White Zomie (and Black Zombie) beat those power levels 
quite handily.
Oops, oh yeah, those are DC systems.  Not sexy enough.

--

Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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[EVDL] EVLN: Gov. Brown $65/yr CA-Roadtax-Fee for all (not just plugins)

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/01/11/gov-jerry-brown-vehicle-fee-fix-roads-bridges/
Gov. Brown Proposes $65 Vehicle Fee To Fix Crumbling Roadways
January 11, 2016  Anne Makovec 

[video
http://cbsloc.al/1ZWMIlS
]

SACRAMENTO (KPIX 5) – Gov. Jerry Brown has revived a proposal to help fix
California’s crumbling roads and bridges with a $65 annual fee.

Lawmakers put the brakes on the proposal last year, but the proposal being
revved up again.

“The roads we have to deal with. They’re just there, they cost money,” Brown
said during last week’s budget news conference.

The fee would apply to all cars, trucks and motorcycles, raising about $2
billion a year.

Californians already pay about 40 cents a gallon in state taxes and fees for
gas, but some drivers don’t.

“Those who have vehicles that don’t use any gasoline aren’t paying the gas
tax and they’re getting to use our roads,” Assemblywoman Catherine Baker
told KPIX 5 [TV] on Sunday.

Baker is proposing a fee on electric vehicles, instead of the governor’s $65
fee. “We’re taking a lot from Californians for transportation, we’re not
spending it very well, we need to reform and not just rely on new revenue
streams,” Baker said.

The governor’s office said the $65 fee would be “ongoing.” If approved, the
fee would take effect next year.
[© 2016 CBS Local Media]




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.150m.com}

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[EVDL] EVLN: Leaf EV hatchback reaches the top of Arthur's-Pass.nz

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/75760774/electric-hatchback-reaches-the-top-of-arthurs-pass
Electric hatchback reaches the top of Arthur's Pass
January 11 2016  JACK MONTGOMERIE

[image  / MARTIN KANE/SUPPLIED
http://www.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/9/3/t/j/z/image.related.StuffPortrait.238x286.193tdy.png/1452450076950.jpg
Martin Kane's Nissan Leaf electric car stops at the top of Arthur's Pass on
its West Coast round trip from Timaru.
]

Martin Kane's Nissan Leaf electric car stops at the top of Arthur's Pass on
its West Coast round trip from Timaru.

An electric hatchback touring the South Island has climbed Arthur's Pass as
it begins its return trip to Timaru.

Martin Kane left Timaru on January 3 on a 1344-kilometre, 10-day journey to
test the limits of his Nissan Leaf, an electric car with an estimated range
of 100km on a single charge on flat road.

Before driving out of reliable cellphone coverage on Sunday, Kane reported
his car used two fifths of its charge climbing to 920 metres above sea
level, making the pass through the Southern Alps on State highway 73 "very
do-able".

He intended to reach Flock Hill Station, located 90 minutes' drive in a
petrol-powered car from Christchurch, on Sunday.

Kane's drive has been slower than most, however. He has been travelling at
80kmh to preserve the car's batteries' range.

He is scheduled to pass through Christchurch on Monday on his way back to
Timaru, which he plans to reach on Tuesday.

Although plans exist for fast-charging stations in various parts of the
North Island and South Island, Kane has relied on private arrangements to
charge the car on the way to Punakaiki, about 45km north of Greymouth.

Charging stations on his trip have included holiday parks, a school and the
Alpine Motel at Arthur's Pass.

Using 16-ampere, 240-volt camping ground outlets allowed the car to fully
charge from empty in five hours, while standard 10A plugs charged the car in
eight.

Kane had been concerned rain which fell near Greymouth on Friday might have
added to friction on the road and reduced his range, but said he encountered
relatively little.

He believes electric cars have the potential to reduce New Zealand's
greenhouse gas emissions.
[© stuff.co.nz]
...
http://stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/75603966/
* Electric hatchback reaches Wanaka
...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/71316432/flat-points-will-not-deter-timarus-electric-road-tripper.html
* Flat points will not deter Timaru's electric road tripper
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur's_Pass
Arthur's Pass NZ
http://www.arthurspass.com/




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{brucedp.150m.com}

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[EVDL] Poor wealthy e-motorcycle-EVSE bizman> Banks won't ca$h his coins.cn

[brucedp5 via EV]

% For fear of fake knock-offs.cn %

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/1900066/no-small-change-chinese-businessman-has-18-tonnes-dollar-coins
No small change: Chinese businessman has 1.8 tonnes of dollar coins on his
hands
12 January, 2016  Gloria Chan

[images  
http://cdn3.scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/980w/public/images/methode/2016/01/12/313365e2-b8db-11e5-9ce7-2395197ababe_1280x720.jpg?itok=iizt31Yg
Coining it: The man, surnamed Zhang, made a small fortune, a dollar at a
time, in coin-operated businesses. But no bank will accept such a large
amount of coins. Photo: CNS

http://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/486w/public/images/methode/2016/01/12/30c187ba-b8db-11e5-9ce7-2395197ababe_486x.jpg?itok=iUNu-KjP
Mr Zhang’s rapidly expanding mountain of coins has become a growing problem.
Photo: CNS
]

Hard-earned hoard is worth 300,000 yuan [US$45.6k], but banks are unwilling
to accept it

A businessman in central China has been left with a weighty problem on his
hands: what to do with a pile of 300,000 one yuan coins weighing 1.8 tonnes,
state media reports.


The man, surnamed Zhang, built up the small fortune running coin-operated
laundries and electric motorcycle charging stations in Zhengzhou, the
capital of Henan province.


Despite the money being carefully packed into bags of 500 coins each, no one
is willing to take it.

A chain of supermarkets that used to exchange his coins for cash stopped
doing so three months ago as the demand for coins dropped.

Since then, his coin pile has grown so large that banks are turning Zhang
away.

According to the report, banks in China are unwilling to accept large
deposits of coins because of the space required to store them, and out of
fear of fake coins.
[© 2016 South China Morning Post]
...
[related  dated
http://www.scmp.com/news/china-insider/article/1816326/chinese-petrol-station-worker-buys-68-yuan-car-massive-stash
Chinese petrol station worker buys 680,000-yuan car … with a massive stash
of coins
04 June, 2015
https://cdn4.scmp.com/sites/default/files/2015/06/04/12764301_980x1200_0.jpg
]



http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/U-S-Marshals-changzhoued-busted-shutdown-e-1wheel-knockoff-cn-CES-v-tp4679591.html
U.S. Marshals changzhoued(busted) e-1wheel-knockoff.cn @CES (v)
Jan 09 2016




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