Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

My AHJ nor my brothers did not enforce it so we've had a different experience.  
 


   On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 10:45:01 PM PDT, (-Phil-)  
wrote:  
 
 The NEC definitely accounts for this since 2011, and I know from experience 
AHJs enforce it.   (705.12 D 2)

There are 2 ways:1. Derate: Replace the main with a lower amperage, or:2. End 
Feed: Install the solar breaker at the opposite end of the busbars and put a 
sign that states: "SOLAR PV BREAKER - BREAKER IS BACKFED, DO NOT RELOCATE!"
Most brands of panels also now over-rate the busbars for this reason on at 
least some of their models.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 9:52 PM Lawrence Winiarski 
 wrote:

I'm going to chime in with a point.   Probably plenty all ready know it, but 
maybe some don't.
Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some 
electrical rules.   The reason is thatbreakers were not intended to be used to 
back feed power, but that is the easiest way, so the code peopleactually look 
the other way.

The problem is as follows.
Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.    It has a big 200 amp breaker at the 
top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.Further imagine that you 
have a 40 amp solar.
So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance and 
you are drawing 200 amps.  (or a tiny bit less).    No problem as the main 
breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet.  Now turn on the 40 amps of 
solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from the power 
company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances.    But the 
important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially seeing 200 
amps).    Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps)  so now the bus 
bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't flip (because it's 
now it only sees 200 amps.
So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they are 
rated for.
The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps but 
almost nobody does that.

But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not really 
correct.
Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to a 
solar panel not being entirely kosher.


  
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The NEC definitely accounts for this since 2011, and I know from experience
AHJs enforce it.   (705.12 D 2)

There are 2 ways:
1. Derate: Replace the main with a lower amperage, or:
2. End Feed: Install the solar breaker at the opposite end of the busbars
and put a sign that states: "SOLAR PV BREAKER - BREAKER IS BACKFED, DO NOT
RELOCATE!"

Most brands of panels also now over-rate the busbars for this reason on at
least some of their models.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 9:52 PM Lawrence Winiarski <
lawrence_winiar...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm going to chime in with a point.   Probably plenty all ready know it,
> but maybe some don't.
>
> Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some
> electrical rules.   The reason is that
> breakers were not intended to be used to back feed power, but that is the
> easiest way, so the code people
> actually look the other way.
>
> The problem is as follows.
>
> Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.It has a big 200 amp breaker at
> the top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.
> Further imagine that you have a 40 amp solar.
>
> So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance
> and you are drawing 200 amps.  (or a tiny bit less).No problem as the
> main breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet.  Now turn on the 40
> amps of solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from
> the power company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances.
> But the important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially
> seeing 200 amps).Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps)  so
> now the bus bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't
> flip (because it's now it only sees 200 amps.
>
> So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they are
> rated for.
>
> The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps
> but almost nobody does that.
>
> But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not
> really correct.
>
> Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to a
> solar panel not being entirely kosher.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

I'm going to chime in with a point.   Probably plenty all ready know it, but 
maybe some don't.
Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some 
electrical rules.   The reason is thatbreakers were not intended to be used to 
back feed power, but that is the easiest way, so the code peopleactually look 
the other way.

The problem is as follows.
Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.    It has a big 200 amp breaker at the 
top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.Further imagine that you 
have a 40 amp solar.
So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance and 
you are drawing 200 amps.  (or a tiny bit less).    No problem as the main 
breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet.  Now turn on the 40 amps of 
solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from the power 
company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances.    But the 
important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially seeing 200 
amps).    Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps)  so now the bus 
bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't flip (because it's 
now it only sees 200 amps.
So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they are 
rated for.
The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps but 
almost nobody does that.

But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not really 
correct.
Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to a 
solar panel not being entirely kosher.

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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yeah, NEC requires a GFCI for all outdoor outlets.  If you hardwire an EVSE
in, you don't need it, as the EVSE contains its own.

A common use for 15-50's outdoor is powering RV shore power.


On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 7:04 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> The NEC has changed through the years regarding GFCI protection.
>
> 120vac outdoor outlets were required to be GFCI protected since ~1972.
>
> In the '80s when I worked as an electrician, outdoor 240 volt NEMA 14-50
> outlets were not required to be GFCI protected, but when used to power a
> hot tub, or near a pool, they were required to be GFCI protected.
> However, the newest NEC regulations require, as I understand it, all
> outdoor outlets up to 50 amps be GFCI protected. (I suppose you could
> put in a 60 amp breaker to get around the regulation...)
>
> You should not even mention that an EV might use this outlet. It is
> simply an outdoor NEMA 14-50 outlet. Perhaps for a welder, or ???
>
> The NEC has become more strict in the past 40 years. :-)
>
> Depending on the brand of panel, 50amp 240V two-pole GFCI breakers are
> not insanely expensive. Typically $100 to $150. (For a Scheneider brand,
> they can cost over $400, however.) Choose your brand of sub-panel panel
> based on your breaker cost. :-) I would put the GFCI breaker so that is
> is handy to the outlet so you can easily reset it. At 5 mA trip
> threshold, you are likely to have to reset it with regularity. :-)
>
>  >>>> GFCI rant <<<
>
> In the USA, the GFCI is set at an insanely low trip threshold of 5 mA.
> This is a bit of overreach by the NEC folks. It was initially set far to
> conservatively and they can't go up now that they have set the standard
> at 5 mA.
>
> In NZ, and other parts of the civilized world, the ground fault (or
> residual current) trip threshold is 30 mA.  For context, it takes about
> 100 mA, directly across the chest of a healthy adult to cause a fatal
> shock. Small children and adults with unhealthy hearts, have a lower
> threshold than 100 mA. Thus, in hospitals, daycare facilities, etc. they
> set the requirement at 10 mA for devices with in their reach.
>
> The base voltage in NZ, and most of the world, is 230V. This actually
> doubles the chance of getting the critical 100 mA jolt across the chest,
> but 30 mA is is still a safer option. First, the threshold is 1/3 of
> what is considered the lowest fatal shock current. Next, a shock
> directly across the chest is quite rare. You have to touch something of
> opposite electrical potential with each hand or arm. This is a _very_
> rare occurrence.
>
> The consequence of 5 mA threshold is nuisance tripping. Indeed, less
> trip current is "more safe" than more, I suppose, but it is impractical
> to apply GFCI to more that select parts of the house (and to the
> business.) In contrast the ENTIRE house is protected by GFCI in NZ under
> the modern NZ electrical code. Your electric range is GFCI protected, as
> are all your appliances, and every light fixture. Every outlet in the
> entire house is GFCI protected. You have one GFCI 30 mA breaker to cover
> the entire house, and it rarely trips. If the trip was 5 mA, this would
> be completely impractical as the nuisance tripping would make normal
> activities impossible. A hair dryer could easily darken your entire house.
>
> I should note that commercial settings also have (with some exceptions)
> this facility-wide 30 mA GFCI protection on everything, under the modern
> electrical code.
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 3/11/2024 10:55 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
> >> Hi Folks
> >> I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer
> adds a 14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for EV
> charging). We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and
> pass inspection even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit
> (also tap off garage circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find
> anything direct on Google if it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet
> like we do a 120V outlet on the same 50A branch circuit?  Does anyone know
> if this is ok/code compliant?
> > I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since
> there’s two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit.
> >> Best regards Mark
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> > ___
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> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[Bill Dube via EV]

The NEC has changed through the years regarding GFCI protection.

120vac outdoor outlets were required to be GFCI protected since ~1972.

In the '80s when I worked as an electrician, outdoor 240 volt NEMA 14-50 
outlets were not required to be GFCI protected, but when used to power a 
hot tub, or near a pool, they were required to be GFCI protected. 
However, the newest NEC regulations require, as I understand it, all 
outdoor outlets up to 50 amps be GFCI protected. (I suppose you could 
put in a 60 amp breaker to get around the regulation...)


You should not even mention that an EV might use this outlet. It is 
simply an outdoor NEMA 14-50 outlet. Perhaps for a welder, or ???


The NEC has become more strict in the past 40 years. :-)

Depending on the brand of panel, 50amp 240V two-pole GFCI breakers are 
not insanely expensive. Typically $100 to $150. (For a Scheneider brand, 
they can cost over $400, however.) Choose your brand of sub-panel panel 
based on your breaker cost. :-) I would put the GFCI breaker so that is 
is handy to the outlet so you can easily reset it. At 5 mA trip 
threshold, you are likely to have to reset it with regularity. :-)


 GFCI rant <<<

In the USA, the GFCI is set at an insanely low trip threshold of 5 mA. 
This is a bit of overreach by the NEC folks. It was initially set far to 
conservatively and they can't go up now that they have set the standard 
at 5 mA.


In NZ, and other parts of the civilized world, the ground fault (or 
residual current) trip threshold is 30 mA.  For context, it takes about 
100 mA, directly across the chest of a healthy adult to cause a fatal 
shock. Small children and adults with unhealthy hearts, have a lower 
threshold than 100 mA. Thus, in hospitals, daycare facilities, etc. they 
set the requirement at 10 mA for devices with in their reach.


The base voltage in NZ, and most of the world, is 230V. This actually 
doubles the chance of getting the critical 100 mA jolt across the chest, 
but 30 mA is is still a safer option. First, the threshold is 1/3 of 
what is considered the lowest fatal shock current. Next, a shock 
directly across the chest is quite rare. You have to touch something of 
opposite electrical potential with each hand or arm. This is a _very_ 
rare occurrence.


The consequence of 5 mA threshold is nuisance tripping. Indeed, less 
trip current is "more safe" than more, I suppose, but it is impractical 
to apply GFCI to more that select parts of the house (and to the 
business.) In contrast the ENTIRE house is protected by GFCI in NZ under 
the modern NZ electrical code. Your electric range is GFCI protected, as 
are all your appliances, and every light fixture. Every outlet in the 
entire house is GFCI protected. You have one GFCI 30 mA breaker to cover 
the entire house, and it rarely trips. If the trip was 5 mA, this would 
be completely impractical as the nuisance tripping would make normal 
activities impossible. A hair dryer could easily darken your entire house.


I should note that commercial settings also have (with some exceptions) 
this facility-wide 30 mA GFCI protection on everything, under the modern 
electrical code.


Bill D.

On 3/11/2024 10:55 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Hi Folks
I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer adds a 
14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for EV charging). 
We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and pass inspection 
even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit (also tap off garage 
circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find anything direct on Google if 
it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet like we do a 120V outlet on the same 
50A branch circuit?  Does anyone know if this is ok/code compliant?

I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since there’s 
two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit.

Best regards Mark
Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The subpanel you would install there would have 3 breakers:  All
"dedicated":  1. For the Solar inverter(s), 2. For your 120v outlet, and
3. for your 14-50.  The feed from the main panel is no longer a "solar
feed", it's a "subpanel feed", this is what makes it legal.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 6:11 PM  wrote:

> Hi Phil,
>
>
>
> The 20A 120VAC courtesy outlet is on a 20A breaker at the ground mount
> array that we put on most volunteer solar jobs that pass inspection.  I
> don't see why a 240VAC on a 50A breaker tapped off (at the array or home)
> would be any different.
>
>
>
> The NEC code says the solar circuit is on a single dedicated line  - same
> for an EV charging circuit, so technically solar arrays shouldn't have
> *any* courtesy outlets on them even though they pass inspection.  The
> garage tap-off for solar seems like the same fudge since that's not
> dedicated either - but passes inspections & local electricians tell me that
> both are ok.
>
>
>
>
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Mark E. Hanson
>
> 184 Vista Lane
>
> Fincastle, VA 24090
>
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
>
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
>
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
>
> *UL* Certified PV Installer
>
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
>
> REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
>
> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> <https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd8975b8d/signature>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* (-Phil-)
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 10, 2024 6:07 PM
> *To:* Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> *Cc:* Mark Hanson 
> *Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array
>
>
>
> Yes, you'd need a subpanel, as any outlets you add could get 50A from the
> breaker PLUS whatever your solar is generating.  The 120v outlet without a
> proper breaker to limit current is super dangerous, as you'll definitely
> get 50A even at night, and even more during the day!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 2:56 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Hi Folks
> > I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer
> adds a 14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for EV
> charging). We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and
> pass inspection even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit
> (also tap off garage circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find
> anything direct on Google if it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet
> like we do a 120V outlet on the same 50A branch circuit?  Does anyone know
> if this is ok/code compliant?
> I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since
> there’s two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit.
> > Best regards Mark
> > Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[Mark E. Hanson via EV]

Hi Phil,

 

The 20A 120VAC courtesy outlet is on a 20A breaker at the ground mount array 
that we put on most volunteer solar jobs that pass inspection.  I don't see why 
a 240VAC on a 50A breaker tapped off (at the array or home) would be any 
different. 

 

The NEC code says the solar circuit is on a single dedicated line  - same for 
an EV charging circuit, so technically solar arrays shouldn't have *any* 
courtesy outlets on them even though they pass inspection.  The garage tap-off 
for solar seems like the same fudge since that's not dedicated either - but 
passes inspections & local electricians tell me that both are ok.  

 

 

Have a renewable energy day,

 

Mark

 

Mark E. Hanson

184 Vista Lane

Fincastle, VA 24090

540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell

REEVA: community service RE & EV project club

Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)

UL Certified PV Installer

My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh 

REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0 

Fincastle Solar Weather Station 
<https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd8975b8d/signature>
 

 

 

 

From: (-Phil-) 
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2024 6:07 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Mark Hanson 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

 

Yes, you'd need a subpanel, as any outlets you add could get 50A from the 
breaker PLUS whatever your solar is generating.  The 120v outlet without a 
proper breaker to limit current is super dangerous, as you'll definitely get 
50A even at night, and even more during the day!

 

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 2:56 PM Mark Hanson via EV mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> > wrote:


> 
> Hi Folks
> I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer adds a 
> 14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for EV 
> charging). We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and pass 
> inspection even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit (also 
> tap off garage circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find anything 
> direct on Google if it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet like we do a 
> 120V outlet on the same 50A branch circuit?  Does anyone know if this is 
> ok/code compliant?
I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since there’s 
two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit. 
> Best regards Mark
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[Zeke Yewdall via EV]

I believe the way to do it codewise would be to add a subpanel at the base
of the solar array, with a breaker in it feeding the dedicated solar
circuit (the inverter or inverters -- often I end up with multiple
inverters to get to 50A anyway unless using a single 11.4kW, so am adding
an inverter combiner panel for that reason) and a breaker feeding the EV
charging outlet.  It's legal to connect the PV to a subpanel, or a series
of subpanels, as long as you follow the 120% rule all the way back through
every panel along the way.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 3:08 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

> Yes, you'd need a subpanel, as any outlets you add could get 50A from the
> breaker PLUS whatever your solar is generating.  The 120v outlet without a
> proper breaker to limit current is super dangerous, as you'll definitely
> get 50A even at night, and even more during the day!
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 2:56 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > > Hi Folks
> > > I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer
> > adds a 14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for
> EV
> > charging). We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and
> > pass inspection even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit
> > (also tap off garage circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find
> > anything direct on Google if it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet
> > like we do a 120V outlet on the same 50A branch circuit?  Does anyone
> know
> > if this is ok/code compliant?
> > I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since
> > there’s two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit.
> > > Best regards Mark
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > ___
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> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yes, you'd need a subpanel, as any outlets you add could get 50A from the
breaker PLUS whatever your solar is generating.  The 120v outlet without a
proper breaker to limit current is super dangerous, as you'll definitely
get 50A even at night, and even more during the day!

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 2:56 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

>
> >
> > Hi Folks
> > I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer
> adds a 14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for EV
> charging). We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and
> pass inspection even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit
> (also tap off garage circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find
> anything direct on Google if it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet
> like we do a 120V outlet on the same 50A branch circuit?  Does anyone know
> if this is ok/code compliant?
> I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since
> there’s two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit.
> > Best regards Mark
> > Sent from my iPhone
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[Greg William via EV]

In our area an EV charging station 240 v outlet must be GFCI protected and
those breakers are expensive.  We've been recommending hard wired units and
try to convince the client to provide that and then we install it when we
are onsite.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 2:56 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

>
> >
> > Hi Folks
> > I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer
> adds a 14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for EV
> charging). We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and
> pass inspection even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit
> (also tap off garage circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find
> anything direct on Google if it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet
> like we do a 120V outlet on the same 50A branch circuit?  Does anyone know
> if this is ok/code compliant?
> I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since
> there’s two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit.
> > Best regards Mark
> > Sent from my iPhone
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[EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[Mark Hanson via EV]

> 
> Hi Folks
> I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer adds a 
> 14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for EV 
> charging). We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and pass 
> inspection even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit (also 
> tap off garage circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find anything 
> direct on Google if it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet like we do a 
> 120V outlet on the same 50A branch circuit?  Does anyone know if this is 
> ok/code compliant?
I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since there’s 
two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit. 
> Best regards Mark
> Sent from my iPhone
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