Re: [EVDL] Lithium EV battery in colder weather

[Hoegberg via EV]

EV  för Robert Bruninga via EV 
den 23 oktober 2018 04:52
Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Robert Bruninga
[EVDL] Lithium EV battery in colder weather


> I know that Lithium batteries perform worse at lower temps.  But what does
that mean?
> Charging, or using? which is worse.


The "rule of thumb":
-Avoid any normal/slow charging below zero degrees in cell temp,

(I dont know what that is in the degrees of freedom-scale, lets call it "below 
freezing")

That rule also apply to deeply frozen laptops, cellphones and so on...

(a sloow trickle charge might be without harm if it is not like 
deep-space-winter-cold standard chemistry cell, just a bit below freezing or 
so. But  I do not know, probably "it depends"..)

Li plating seems real! I think I destroyed a Thundersky, at "only" 0.3C 
charging test at -28'C

*

Discharging cold cells seems "ok" , if you do Low C-rates.
(May be to run the battery heater for several hours?)

The Thundersky 90Ah cells did perform *extremely* poor in my low temp Discharge 
test.
Like -BAM- down to my cut off at 1.8 volt, with a very weak load..



/John
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Re: [EVDL] Lithium EV battery in colder weather

[Hoegberg via EV]

EV  för Robert Bruninga via EV 
den 23 oktober 2018 04:52
Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Robert Bruninga
[EVDL] Lithium EV battery in colder weather

> I know that Lithium batteries perform worse at lower temps.  But what does
that mean?
> Charging, or using? which is worse.

In general, semifast/fastCharging (or any charging at all below about zero 
degrees seems to be the killer,

look up: the "Li-plating" problem in cold cells at fast charging


/John


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Re: [EVDL] unfurling panels [was: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars]

[Hoegberg via EV]

> Peri Hartman
> [EVDL] unfurling panels [was: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars]

> I think what would be interesting, perhaps not so practical, would be to
design an EV for aerodynamcis. But, when parked, it would "unfurl" a
large collection of solar panels which could be more-or-less aimed.

> It would still require having a fairly large battery, so this isn't the
same sort of thing as the Stella. Depending on how much wind the panels
might catch, it might need stabilizers, similar to what excavators use.
I can imagine all sorts of geometries.

> Even on a dull Seattle december day, this might capture enough energy
for the daily commute to never need plugging in.

> Peri

*

I really like the Hyundai Ionic for its superb efficiency
On the ABRP-site it seems like it has even lower consumption than the Model3.
but the double curved shape of the roof is probably not optimal for solar cell 
bending..

Sunpower cells can actually bend, but only in one direction at the time!  :- )

Ionic, yes very very good eff. but still, the Ionic is a bit old now,
 would I buy a car with a 28kWh pack in 2019? for 40 000 USD...
Or go for the Kona instead?

Kona is not the type of car that I need, also it consumes more energy at higher 
speeds, but it have a very large and modern battery pack, at the same price as 
the Ionic, hmm..

I just wish they did an nice upgrade to the Ionic pack very soon, to something 
at least similar to the Zoe 40(?)kWh pack, or the "new" 120Ah cells in the 
BMWi3.


But for a person that have any kind of need for off-grid solar installation 
that produce several hundreds of watts for the full 17-20 hours summer days, 
and if he also like to get a huge lithium battery storage for the house for 
"free", +a powerful inverter to "plug in and charge up the house" using a 
normal Schuko 1 phase 16Amp 3.7kW 2.5mm2 cord , or use the the type 2 plug(or a 
3phase redplug?) to get even higher power levels if there is a need for that, 
up to 11kW peak output,

If that kind of needs do exists from time to time, maybe at a visit to the 
remote summer-house/cabin?  Then I think the Sion is probably a really good 
idea compared to buy all that stuff exra for a permanent installation, and use 
it probably not so much,

https://sonomotors.com/sion.html/

To me this seems like a complete off-grid installation, on wheels  :- )



it is a boxy looking car, so the Aero is probably not that great..
(but the size/frontal area seems relatively small. Also the kWh/km and 
indicated range looks "ok")

If needed, you can also just drive away with your nice mobile offgrid solar 
installation to a charging station, or visit some nice on-grid-friends, to get 
some more juice for the house,

https://sonomotors.com/wp-content/uploads/Information_Sheet_Sion_EN.pdf

I like the car and the concept overall, at that price-point,

and solar cells is not that expensive any more, ..so why not?

In the summer this car would probably do all my regular trips on "self charge" 
sunlight power only, so it might be some months without a need to plug it in at 
all.. I think that is cool :- )

Yes the same solar cells on a 300 degree or 360 tracker would perform better, 
but then I need to buy a much larger battery for the home, if not there for 
some days or weeks, So I guess it will not be "more" energy for the same amount 
of money. And I also need to buy a bigger charge controller. And a tracker... 
and install a second larger inverter at home to, for the peak loads.

I also like the "open source" attitude they seems to have at sonomotors,
free access to stuff like servicemanuals and online step by step videos for any 
local car repair shops


/ John

















-- Original Message --
From: "Bobby Keeland via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Bobby Keeland" 
Sent: 22-Oct-18 6:47:55 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
(charging while parked)

>My wife and I are on the waiting list for a 220 mile range Model 3. We
>don't need the 310 mile range or the high performance.
>
>When we travel it is usually by motorhome. I've thought about towing
>the EV
>on a trailer that is covered with solar panels. A recharge while boon
>docking would be no problem.
>BobK
>
>On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:41 AM Robert Bruninga via EV
>
>wrote:
>
>>ALL EV's are predominantly charged while parked.  Solar panels on EV's
>>are
>>not for propulsion power but for battery charging during the 8 to 16
>>hour
>>solar day while parked in the sun, not just the 30 minutes the car is
>>in
>>use.  This is for those without a dedicated charger at home.
>>
>>Bob
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: EV  On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via EV
>>Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 7:26 PM
>>To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>>Cc: Alan Arrison 
>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
>>
>>The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have,
>>never
>>will.
>>
>>This has been 

Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

[Hoegberg via EV]

Från: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> för Hoegberg via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Skickat: den 5 december 2017 06:23
Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Kopia: Hoegberg
Ämne: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are 
incredibly dumb


I just dont get it.. why burn the good Toyota brand like this? 
To me it seems like a big ZeppelinSeppuku move. :-/ 

..if it really consumes 4 times (!!) more solar energy per mile (?), then 
it is just crazy to push a product like the Mirai in year 2018? 

 
Bonus video!
Tony Seba, he did this 8 minute talk about hydrogen vs battery storage for ev:s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23lz9ercqvA 

/ J
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Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

[Hoegberg via EV]

I really dont get this , but many many people now talk about this instead of 
ev:s:

Toyota here(Sweden) tries hard to push the Mirai as the "future" of cars, (yes 
it seems to be a nice hybrd EV, but the battery is ultra small!!) ,

So, Mirai..a car that might be using something like 4 times(?) as much solar 
panel installations m2 to run the same distances as the Hyundai ionic electric 
(they are about the same size cars) , 

Toyoda runs multiple tv-ads here about the thing, even many at the same night, 
also full page ads in EV-magazines, and so on.

 -"Mirai, the electric car that charges as you drive it!", 

or the fantastic(?) "-H2O is the new Co2!" -slogan.. 

it seems to be, in total, 4 hydrogen stations here in the country, so you maybe 
get about 200 km range from that pump, if you want to make it back again. ..and 
you dont, :-) because the pump is not in/close to the city. 

For example here in the capital city (Stockholm) , you probably at the moment 
need to go all the way up to the Arlanda airport to fill it up, and then go 
back home again..   Hmm.
(yes this point can impove a lot and millions of filling stations like the wall 
outlets might be the future (hmm,, no)  ,  but can the car really improve 
enough?  or the electrolyzer?)
/ J 




Från: EV  för Michael Ross via EV 
Skickat: den 29 oktober 2017 17:37
Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Kopia: Michael Ross
Ämne: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are 
incredibly dumb

I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
to work on HFCVs.

A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.

I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..

He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
environment and habitat, etc.

At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough the
200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
production and use.

I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages.

I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.

BentMIke



On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with
> hydrogen anyway
> Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
>
> [image
> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
> electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
> quality=82=1024#038;strip=all=1600
>
> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
> hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82=all
> ]
>
> For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
> battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
> the
> Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
>
> Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
> “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing
> in
> the technology.
>
> Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as
> an
> energy storage system for vehicles.
>
> For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
> compared to battery-powered vehicles.
>
> Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell vehicle
> ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
> 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buy your Bolt EV @Costco> (offer expires January 2, 2018)

[Hoegberg via EV]

Från: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> för Peter Eckhoff via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Skickat: den 13 oktober 2017 16:35
Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Kopia: Peter Eckhoff
Ämne: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buy your Bolt EV @Costco> (offer expires January 2, 2018)

I don’t think there is just one price.  It’s Costco working with local
dealers who want to sell cars to people who don’t want to haggle.   Costco
bargains with eventually an ”approved” dealer or dealers to bring the price
down to where everyone wins.  The dealer sells a car, the Costco member
receives or perceives a better deal than they would have received through
their own negotiations, and Costco gains a commission.

If you search on Costco car buying service reviews, you’ll find a number of
reviews where the buyer screwed up, the dealership was not ethical and
Costco didn’t exert itself and all were left with unhappy experiences.

The bottom line is that it can work well but you have to read and
understand the agreements, be willing to stay the course or walk away, and
provide Costco with feedback at appropriate times.

The 2018 Bolt was not being offered but the 2017 was listed.

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 9:53 AM Hoegberg via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

>
> 
> Från: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> för brucedp5 via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Skickat: den 12 oktober 2017 18:58
> Till: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Kopia: brucedp5
> Ämne: [EVDL] EVLN: Buy your Bolt EV @Costco> (offer expires January 2,
> 2018)
>
>
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1113092_costco-members-can-now-get-gm-supplier-pricing-on-chevy-bolt-ev-volt
> Costco members now get GM Supplier Pricing on Chevy Bolt EV, Volt
> Oct 5, 2017  Sean Szymkowski
>
>
> ***
>
> - So what is the costco-Bolt prices in USA?
>
> / John
>


ok, Hmm , 

So you think it can be different costco-prices in different states ?

Do we have any Costco-member on this list that can check it?
( Price on different Zip / locations)

/ John
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buy your Bolt EV @Costco> (offer expires January 2, 2018)

[Hoegberg via EV]

Från: EV  för brucedp5 via EV 
Skickat: den 12 oktober 2017 18:58
Till: ev@lists.evdl.org
Kopia: brucedp5
Ämne: [EVDL] EVLN: Buy your Bolt EV @Costco> (offer expires January 2, 2018)

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1113092_costco-members-can-now-get-gm-supplier-pricing-on-chevy-bolt-ev-volt
Costco members now get GM Supplier Pricing on Chevy Bolt EV, Volt
Oct 5, 2017  Sean Szymkowski


***

- So what is the costco-Bolt prices in USA?

/ John

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Re: [EVDL] Self discharge never sleeps (was: Curtis 1238-6501...)

[Hoegberg via EV]

Från: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> för Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Skickat: den 9 augusti 2017 21:01
Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Kopia: Hoegberg via EV; Eva Hakansson
Ämne: [EVDL] Self discharge never sleeps (was: Curtis 1238-6501...)

"Self discharge has an _extremely_ strong function of temperature.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/elevating_self_discharge "

hmm,
Based on my limited experience that seems a bit high for LFP, 
have you seen this for a123-cells thet have been in long storage ?


/John
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Re: [EVDL] Curtis 1238-6501 State of Charge

[Hoegberg via EV]

Hi

LFP:
You might with some(all?) LFP even find a slight hysteresis in pack voltage, at 
exactly the same SOC..

 (most visible if you are in the 30-70% SOC-zone) 
depending on ..if you have had a regen or a discharge pulse as your last event, 
then the no load voltage seems not to be exactly the same, at the same SOC. 
A higher rest voltage if you did a charge/regen pulse compared to if you just 
did a very short discharge.  

I agree with the others, count Ah is the way ot go to know the SOC % in the 
flat part of the discharge curve, 

Also my experience was, that decent cells dont have any / a lot of self 
discharge to balance out when in normal use, only milliamps might be needed 
over time, so if they are well (top)balanced once they seems to stay well 
balanced. But if the cells are damaged / have mfg problems from the begining 
then it might be a different situation,

Regarding balancers maximum current:
 we had a 5 Amp as the charger minimum current, so we did a pulse charge 
instead of use large balance currents, 

So if one cell reach the "balancing" voltage then we can just stop the charger, 
and wait for that cell to reach its lower voltage, with only 100mA or so as 
balancer discharge current, then we re-enable the charger(5Amp) until any 
cell(s) again reach the balance-start voltage. 

If you dont have any cell voltage monitoring , or any kind of signal / feedback 
from the balancers, then it might be tricky to do this, I dont have any good 
solution to shut of the charger in time if we dont know when we have a problem. 
(other than to use a lower charge current than your balancers can handle, but 
if one balancer do fail, then you will probably overcharge that cell later)

 I would prefer to use some kind of good cell voltage monitoring so you can get 
a warning in time if some cell go to low or to high, and also use it to shut 
of/cut down the charger, or cut back on the trottle if some of the cells get to 
low when driving.

in my opinion that should be a minimum when charging a large expensive pack..of 
more than 4 cells in series. :-)  

If we only use the full pack voltage for the charger to decide whan to go in to 
constant voltage mode, then we can get in troubles, for example if one cell in 
the pack reach "full" and lift off almost like a capacitor, long before all the 
others have start to climb up faster in the end, so if all the other cells that 
still are the flat and lower voltage region the charger will give the pack and 
the already full cell its maximum current. Not good.
 
For example:
if we use 3.60 V as the chargers maximum cell voltage * 25 cells = 90 volt
what now if one cell is full and the others are still at 3.45 V each?

3.45 * 24 cells = 82.8 volt  
Minus..say..89.8 Volt from the charger? 
 = 1 cell will now try to reach up to about 7 Volt, and maybe still at full 
charger current...if so, that can probably be "bad".  :-)

/ John



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Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

[Hoegberg via EV]

Från: EV  för Bill Dube via EV 
Skickat: den 29 april 2017 09:21
Till: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Ämne: Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

> Ideally, the car should be loaded as it will be most often driven.

> Years ago when I had my electric Wabbit aligned for minimum rolling
> resistance, I actually sat in the driver's seat while the car was on the
> alignment machine. They then set the wheels for as close to straight
> ahead as possible.


-Aha, So you did not use the motor-torq at
stand still to simulate for higher speed road driving?

maybe that could be an interesting test to do?
Use F ,apply the torq needed for 80kmh
and look at the adjustment tools, if it is a
lot then some component might be in slightly bad shape?

/ John
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Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

[Hoegberg via EV]

Från: EV  för Cor van de Water via EV 

Skickat: den 28 april 2017 02:25
Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Ämne: Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

> After doing the toe-OUT on my Leaf I had parked it for a while
(I am selling it, as I am always driving my electric truck)
But today I decided to take it to work for the day so it is not
Sitting for too long.
> Wow! The miles/kWh varied a bit, traffic was mixed, some local and
Some freeway, but it stayed between 4.9 and 5.2 miles/kWh.
Before the toe adjustment, I had difficulty to keep it above 3.8
So, apparently this is an *important* adjustment if you are driving
Your Leaf careful but are not getting the efficiency near 5 mi/kWh.
This is greatly extending the range of my Leaf, now that I know how!
Cor.


- Thank you for the report, interesting!
  What is the battery-power at 70(or90) kmh?

How to convert that "efficiency"-number to standard
energy consumption?  (kWh/100km)

I have done this on my Volvo V70 also some years ago, it
did help a lot, but the car with more neutral toe adjustment -
needs a bit more active driver on the steering wheel,

It would be interesting to try to adjust it *live* and watch
the power needed when running 90kmh or so.

Also the main problem with this fossil-car is the engine..
it uses more energy than the leaf per km,
just at no load to turn the crankshaft and other tings..
and about 4-5 times more energy when running 90kmh

It takes about 2kwh per 10 km *at engine idle*
no load, with the clutch down in 60 kmh..

/john
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla cell size

[Hoegberg via EV]

Från: EV  för Michael Ross via EV 
Skickat: den 14 april 2017 04:04
Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Mark Hanson
Ämne: Re: [EVDL] Tesla cell size 


> Regarding fuses, if you check out some images of pack teardowns you can see
the fuses are really just a fusible link welded to each cell, connecting it
to the "backplane." They have simply sized the connecting wire to melt
under a damaging short condition. Foolproof, they fail open, and cheap.


I think that also pouch cells can have "fuses", 
sometimes I have seen punched holes in the Foil/tabs close to the cell, I think 
that is "fusing", less area just below where they will be welded in parallel at 
the end of the tabs 

/ John
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[EVDL] Coal power for Ev:s, Greener China , was RE: Curtis 1231c physical disassembly - cut the rear panel or not?

[Hoegberg via EV]

> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 17:58:13 -0500
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Curtis 1231c physical disassembly - cut the rear panel or 
> not?
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org

I change the name, as it don't have any curtis info.
Still interesting subject about the fuel we use to drive our ev:s
 and it does indeed relate to Ev:s,  i think
 
>
>> CFBs and LEDs are inherently more complex and costly
>> than old incandescents. But we’ve “externalized” those costs
>> (and their carbon footprint and energy of production) to China,
>> which is using cheap coal for goods production ...

mmm
We buy it, so we did choose this power solution for our products?


> The excuse of "china" and their coal consumption is so 2008 legacy and
> triggers a response...
>
> Every person in China got the message at the 2008 Olympics that coal was
> killing them. SInce then China has so completely reversed course that they
> are eating our lunch. In 2013 they installed more solar and wind in one
> year than we have done to date. And this year, their investment in solar
> and wind is DOUBLE the entire investment of the USA in clean energy. We are
> even behind the Europeans I think.
> China is phasing out coal faster than we are, switching to solar and wind
> faster than we are, and now with our new administration we are even going
> backwards by promising to shut down clean energy ( and 13 million new
> forward thinking jobs) and to restore COAL (and only a few thousand
> dead-end jobs).
>
> I fear we hold on too long to the news of the past and we are not thinking
> clearly to the future...


-Se this! for some great POSITIVE info about the progress in china! (and US to)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAqjcpGwFB4



> Glad to hear the BOLT won top honors at the Autoshows! and it is AMERICAN!
> Bob

Im not sure that is a good thing , :-) 
 they(us) build cars that dont last long 
enough, crappy rust protection, on purpose ?

have you seen a 10-15 year old us-car used in a climate 
where it is wet and salty (Sweden for example) Normal car have not started to 
rust yet,   
Many US or german made cars have HOLES. or already gone to the scrapyard.

at least 20 years life as a family car would be a minimum target to aim for?



Opel/gm dont dare to sell them here at all now... 
not in 2017, maybe not even 2018 :-( 

Bolt/ampera (They call it "opel amperae as GM dont sell the Cheverolet brand 
any more, they try to kill its best brand names, to use "opel" that many people 
relate to as a low end crap-brand with electrical failures )
 
Bolt Could probably be an ok car here to, if they use a decent paint and normal 
rust protection 
(Ask Volvo how to do it right.. My 17 years old car in salt spray and no vax 
ever, still no rust..) 
Bolt would be very interesting car at our market, ..right now, probably a 
massive hit, 
Gmboltopelampeerae have a BIG "time to market" advantage, NOW,  
but still they chose to not sell it, at all.. wtf..??
vw, daimler and many others lags behind in the timeline. 

They did not even bother to show up at the EV-fair show in Gothenburg and 
Stockholm recently, plenty of Teslas, BMW, KISaSoul, Nissan, and so on,
most other producers did show up, even very strange things like Toyota Mirai 
..that cant be charged at home at all... and have very very crapy primary 
energy / mile consumption. (things that they refused to answer questions about. 
"Toyuta dont know how much energy/km it consumes", -yea.. sure! :-)  

And they have only 4 "gas-stations" in the whole country..
Still they got plenty media coverage anyway, So just imagine what the 
Amperae with its eu-"500" km range would have seen!

I find it Very very strange that they dont even dare to show 
the cars here now, take pre-pay-preorders and so on, 
 in a time when they have one of the best performer,
 ..at the moment.

But I am very glad to see that they DO sell them in Norway now!
and at a good pricepoint to, it seems: 299 NOK 
(a lot of money, but still "cheap" compared to norway-gas cars, that is heavy 
taxed)
EL-cars get Several benefits in the cities to, can drive by clogged roads in 
the Buss-lanes, tax benifits, sometimes free charging, sometimes free parking 
in expensive city center, and so on.

299 000 NOK , That is today about 34 000 usd I think, 
 including winter package, heated steering wheel, and front seat, etc.
 AND also including the DC slowcharging option. (But 50kW only, so probably 
that thing is not compatible with our 150kW chargers, or the upcoming 300+)

http://www.opel.no/kjoretoy/opel-serie/biler/ampera-e/models-specification.html


/ John
  
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Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element

[Hoegberg via EV]

> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 12:12:35 +0100
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an 
> Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
>


Sorry for the multiple emails,, some problem with the webmail

// Microb$oft
  
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Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element

[Hoegberg via EV]

> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 21:32:51 -0800
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an 
> Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> I read the claims of the Patent (which is the meat of the invention)
> and while I understand that you can establish parameters for a pack and
> determine for example loss of a single cell in a parallel configuration
> in a number of ways, for example because that set of parallel cells will
> have lower capacity than the other (series connected) sets, so the
> voltage of the set with one less (functioning) cell will rise and fall
> faster with SoC;
> it is also possible to determine (increase of) impedance of a set of
> parallel cells by monitoring the short-term voltage variation correlated
> with changes ("transient" in terms of the patent) in the current flowing
> through the cells (from acceleration and regen or charging start/stop),
> but I do not understand their claim that they determine an overcharge
> event by finding a *lower* impedance of the cell than normal 
> All data that I have seen show that pack impedance goes *up* at the low
> and the high end of SoC, so how can they determine overcharging from
> lowered impedance???
> Unless the Panasonic/Tesla cells react differently to overcharge than
> other chemistries.
> For over*dis*charge they do expect and detect a rise in cell impedance.
>
> After Claim 9 we find the usual stuff for a Lithium-ion battery with BMS
> that balances cells, the only really new thing that this patent seems to
> claim is the *de*crease of impedance during overcharge and the fact that
> it uses an independent system for the over- and under-charge threshold
> detection so that if the main BMS fails and balancing is unavailable, at
> least this backup system prevents the battery from over- and
> under-charge so the car can continue to be used (and driven to the
> service appointment) with the main BMS out.
> This fact of a backup BMS as well as the *lowered* impedance measured to
> represent overcharging was probably never claimed before and thus it is
> possible to get a patent on this, but I find this a very flimsy basis
> for a patent.
> It is always possible that I misunderstood the patent - reading and
> interpreting claims is never easy stuff but I have a bit of experience
> ;-)
>
> Cor van de Water


Hmm, 
all decent bms do allt/most of this already today, right?
At least the one we build at the hobby-level, hehe
 
Statistics used on all individual cells/modules and using the peak load/regen 
and the charger, no load voltage drop after charge andso on, statistics on 
temperature dependancy at high currents, 
 
Dont we all use the car as the ultimate "heavy duty battery tester"?
 
Also the "oooh-shit"-redundant solution from Linear about 7-10 years ago, had 
a fallback, at least monitoring the min max voltage -levels(?) 

This was Done at a different chip, 
..if the main ltc680x chip or computer / signal lines 
fails for any reason, right?
 
if I remember their solution right it was just pulses out, as long "all ok", 
it could be daisy-chained on all pack cells groups, 
just monitoring a single output "allgood"-pulse, 

or monitor individual banks pulse-chanels in paralell, 
one pulse channel for each bank of 12 cell-levels, if you did like that.
 
At least I think I have this redundant circuits on my now very old 48chanel 
dev-boards from Linear..  :-)
 
/ John
  
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[EVDL] FW: TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element

[Hoegberg via EV]

> From: hoegb...@hotmail.com
> To: billd...@killacycle.com
> Subject: RE: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an 
> Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element
> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 11:57:30 +0100
>
> Hmm,
> all decent bms do allt/most of this already today, right?
> At least the one we build at the hobby-level, hehe
>
> Statistics used on all individual cells/modules and using the peak load/regen 
> and the charger, no load voltage drop after charge andso on, statistics on 
> temperature dependancy at high currents,
>
> dont we all use the car as the "heavy duty battery tester"?
>
> Also the "oooh-shit"-redundant solution from Linear about 7-10 years ago had 
> a fallback,
> at least monitoring the min max voltage -levels(?) Done at a different chip,
> ..if the main ltc680x chip or computer / signal lines fails for any reason, 
> right?
>
> if I remember their solution right it wasjust puses out as long all ok, could 
> be daisy on all pack cells monitoring to a single output "allgood", or 
> individual pulse-chanels in paralell, one pulse channel for each bank of 12 
> cell-levels if you like that better.
>
> At least I think I have this redundant circuits on my dev-boards from 
> Linear..  :-)
>
> / John
>
>
> 
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 23:29:39 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an 
>> Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element
>> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>>
>> Doesn't Lee Hart's "Batt Bridge" do this?
>> Seems like it monitors cell behavior (impedance, voltage) and
>> continuously compares it with the group behavior.
>> Wouldn't the Batt Bridge be prior art?
>> Seems like it to me.
>>
>> Bill D.
>>
>> On 1/7/2017 10:32 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>>> I read the claims of the Patent (which is the meat of the invention)
>>> and while I understand that you can establish parameters for a pack and
>>> determine for example loss of a single cell in a parallel configuration
>>> in a number of ways, for example because that set of parallel cells will
>>> have lower capacity than the other (series connected) sets, so the
>>> voltage of the set with one less (functioning) cell will rise and fall
>>> faster with SoC;
>>> it is also possible to determine (increase of) impedance of a set of
>>> parallel cells by monitoring the short-term voltage variation correlated
>>> with changes ("transient" in terms of the patent) in the current flowing
>>> through the cells (from acceleration and regen or charging start/stop),
>>> but I do not understand their claim that they determine an overcharge
>>> event by finding a *lower* impedance of the cell than normal 
>>> All data that I have seen show that pack impedance goes *up* at the low
>>> and the high end of SoC, so how can they determine overcharging from
>>> lowered impedance???
>>> Unless the Panasonic/Tesla cells react differently to overcharge than
>>> other chemistries.
>>> For over*dis*charge they do expect and detect a rise in cell impedance.
>>>
>>> After Claim 9 we find the usual stuff for a Lithium-ion battery with BMS
>>> that balances cells, the only really new thing that this patent seems to
>>> claim is the *de*crease of impedance during overcharge and the fact that
>>> it uses an independent system for the over- and under-charge threshold
>>> detection so that if the main BMS fails and balancing is unavailable, at
>>> least this backup system prevents the battery from over- and
>>> under-charge so the car can continue to be used (and driven to the
>>> service appointment) with the main BMS out.
>>> This fact of a backup BMS as well as the *lowered* impedance measured to
>>> represent overcharging was probably never claimed before and thus it is
>>> possible to get a patent on this, but I find this a very flimsy basis
>>> for a patent.
>>> It is always possible that I misunderstood the patent - reading and
>>> interpreting claims is never easy stuff but I have a bit of experience
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> Cor van de Water
>>> Chief Scientist
>>> Proxim Wireless
>>>
>>> office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
>>> XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
>>>
>>> http://www.proxim.com
>>>
>>> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
>>> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received
>>> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any
>>> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>>> this message is prohibited.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2017 3:59 PM
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an
>>> Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected 

Re: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[Hoegberg via EV]

> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 13:56:04 -0500
> Subject: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> For those of you following the drama:
>
> A few days ago my main HV fuse blew.
>
> I used a lightbulb to test the Curtis 1231C controller and it was able


I have an 1221 that I want to use for a new car, but this one has not been 
used and have been outdoors for 20 years.. in bad climate, so it probably need 
some internal drying..
 
It might still work, but capacitors and stuff might gone bad over time (?)
, I assume it is the model before 1231c ,

if I remember correct it is 72-120V 400 Motoramps. (dont have the 1khz at low 
pwm/speeds)
Anyone on this list that have a service manual?
 or just the circuit schematics with component values and so for me?

I would be very happy to be able to repair it, IF it blows up..   

If you have, please send me "off list", ..or link, if it is not already in the 
public domain

// John
  
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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Hoegberg via EV]

> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 16:22:48 -0800
> To: j...@k6ccc.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Jim Walls via EV  wrote:
>
>> Not trying to agree or disagree, but remember that one of the biggest
>> issues with the US economy is the regular moving of jobs off-shore. A
>> second is a substantial un-balance of trade. Mr. Trump has somewhat
>> regularly pushed that we need to get Americans working again. If he is
>> able to enact his item five, it will put a bunch of Americans to work in
>> largely well paying jobs, and reduce oil imports which will have at least a
>> little improvement in the balance of trade.
>
>
> That's a good argument, except that it completely ignores the large number
> of people employed in the U.S. in "clean energy" industries, for which
> Trump would remove incentives. Solar jobs alone amount to 205,000 jobs.

Im sure he/his party dont ignore this rapidly growing industry(..money) and 
the new companies IN the right country that they want all jobs and money 
to stay in, and Tesla really is a fantastic leader, Even Trumb will understand 
this

> Moving all those people into the coal/oil/gas industry is stupid, on many
> levels. How many rooftop solar installers would rather mine coal??

Hehe,  :-)


Speaking of carbon, here is UN talk Regarding Climate change 
and the "before the Flood"-film From National Geographic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-FM845giaI
6m, Published on Apr 22, 2016 United Nations - Statement by
Mr. Leonardo DiCaprio, United Nations Messenger of 
Peace at the opening of the High-level Signature Ceremony 
for the Paris Agreement.



And a fresh talk from Obama/Leonardo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxHKsaG6Guc

"Published on Oct 3, 2016
-On Monday, DiCaprio and Obama were joined by climate scientist 
Katharine Hayhoe from Texas Tech University. DiCaprio, who 
took on the role of interviewer for the evening, began by 
thanking Obama for his “extraordinary leadership” on environmental 
issues. “If you do not believe in climate change, you do not believe 
in facts,” the actor said, noting that anyone who doesn’t agree with 
the settled science “should not hold public office.” That comment, a 
clear dig at candidates like at Donald Trump who has called climate 
change a hoax perpetrated by China, was met with loud cheers from 
the crowd in attendance.

In turn, Obama told DiCaprio that he is “very proud” of his 
administration’s record on climate action, citing last year’s Paris 
agreement as an example of the progress being made. But he 
also admitted that even if every country held up their end of 
the bargain, it wouldn’t be enough. "Climate change is happening 
at a faster rate than what was predicted even 5 years ago,” the 
president said, adding that we’re in a “race against time.” While 
the idea of a carbon tax also got a big ovation from attendees, the 
president admitted the likelihood of any “immediate” action in 
that area is still a “ways away.”"


And, take a look at the film they made, 
/ John
  
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Re: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help smoothout the grid, +more

[Hoegberg via EV]

> From: michael.e.r...@gmail.com 
> Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 19:17:41 -0400 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help  
> smoothout the grid, +more 
> To: hoegb...@hotmail.com; ev@lists.evdl.org 
>  
> I get a lot of flack for this, but Li - ion cells don't function the  
> way PbSO4 and others do.  They are essentially bi-stable.  You put and  
> ion on the cathode (charge it) and it nestles between some platelets of  
> graphene within a stable pocket of carbon atoms around it.  Until you  
> create a potential and current path in the discharge direction nothing  
> happens.  Before the "until" point there is nothing to cause the ion to  
> move, unlike other battery cells.  This is called intercalation. 
>  
> If there is self discharge of a Li-ion cell happening when it is not in  
> a circuit, it is a fault in its manufacture. There is a lot of variety  
> of manufacturing expertise and quality.  We could, any one of us, make  
> a functional Li-ion cell in our garage, but it would be unlikely to  
> have a long life or good performance. 
>  
> One good way to treat a new cell is to charge it for long term storage  
> is charge to about 50% DOD (or SOC if you prefer).  This ensures that  
> the degradation that occurs when a fully charged cell sees too high  
> temperature.  This degradation is a loss of capacity however, not  
> necessarily a loss of charge % relative to the whatever functional  
> cathode, anode and electrolyte is left. A shitty cell of a particular  
> chemistry will be alike to the same cell made well made and formed  
> properly of the same chemistry. 
>  
> At 50% SOC you theoretically are seeing the nominal cell voltage.  But  
> I warn you that you may not really know the true midpoint cell voltage.  
> Spec sheets are notoriously vague to incorrect on this point.  Also it  
> is not easy tp tell anything about SOC from voltage. a tenth of a volt  
> can be a lot of difference in charge, a characteristic of Li-ion  
> generally.  You might see the voltage change 0.3V from 20% to 80% soc.  
> Every change in chemistry can effect this.  Do you have LiFePO4? One of  
> the combinations of Li with nickel, aluminum manganese, etc.? THe  
> nominal can range from 3.2V to 4.2V depending.  Do you really know what  
> the cells are made of? You said "high voltage after six years, a high  
> nominal voltage for one could be a low voltage for another. 

Yes I agree (but not 4.2 at old fully charged cells after some storage,
 they seems to go back and settle about a bit over nominal, probably a bad 
thing :-)

And the sonys I have not done any discharge test on them yet, 
But they have about 3.73-3.80V now
Do you / someone know how to read the mfg year out from that code?



The 100Ah lifepo4 on the other hand, they did of course 
stay at the nominal voltage, almost as a constant voltage source :-)
As you say we cant really tell based on the voltage for
 SOC between 30 or 40 up to 70% , or so.

But I did a discharge test, and got the Ah out, so they where almost full,

And I did not even charge them 100% full before the storage years
So I conclude it is almost "zero" self discharge in some lifepo4, I would say



Also some 25650 DLG-EV cells (K2) 3.3Ah LiFePo4 show the same, but 
they have also been short circuit tested until half of the 16p-pack popped
 up and disconnected the cells internally, the rest of them was long term
 stored, at least 5 years later they still had not gone below 3 volt.

Some of the cells are not ok in capacity, but that I assume was part due 
to the extreme abuse, they have had very high internal pressure..
(the bottom of the cells are round..,) and half of the brothers in that 
parallel 
pack did die and "went" the cap & therefore also open the disconnect switch.  
They where also dry inside on the active material layers..



The thundersky we tested DID seem to have some self discharge, 
I don't know why if there is some junk in the electrolyte or the separator
 or.. I dont know, so then maybe some small leak currents would occur?

Also they did leak "acid" from the vent/cap,  bad seal /mfg problems. 
Sign: The TS-logo almost disappeared from the clear plastic cap,
end they did come loose, and we also measured very acid electrolyte spill 
around the plastic nut.
(The electrolyte seems to form HF-acid when in contact with moist from air,
So I also guess its not good at all to get humid air IN to the cell that way...)



the *very* old Russian NiMh still had some juice left, but not full.
they did seem to operate normal now even after all this years, 

if I find one again I can do a capacity plot- test on them to when I build the 
tester.
BTW the seller in 1992 told me it was something similar to the thoughts 
about the Tesla gigafactory layout in Russia back then, :-)  they had their own 
nickel mining in one end of the process, battery cells in the other end  
and thousands of employees, something 

Re: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help smoothout the grid, +more

[Hoegberg via EV]

> Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 01:11:12 -0700
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help smoothout 
> the grid, +more
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> I don't think battery's self-discharge is any significant factor, if
> that is what you are talking about. Typical self-discharge of Li packs
> is less than 0.1% per day so for a storage that should be able to bridge
> a couple days as in grid storage, this issue is irrelevant.
> Otherwise, people would not be doing just this...
>
> Cor van de Water



I just tried some Lipo cells that have been on the shelf for..about 16 years,,
 without any charging

They had almost full voltage..  !! Wow, thats interesting
Some day I will do a voltage capacity plot of them, I have 3pcs

Sony Energytech from Ericsson Phones, 
size code VP383562A A1

year/Date code:(??) 
WHK16B  


I also had some russian NiMh AAcells from 1992, they 
also had ok voltage still, after about 10 years now without a charge..

The Powercells from Honda Civic hybrid (NiMh, D-size) 
seems to have a *very* high self discharge, some months before they are low on 
energy.
but they seems to always recover great with some overcharging.


And I also have some chinese HY-power(?) White 100Ah LiFePo4 pack 
(20 Ah bags inside) that have not seen charge since 2008, 
 They was also not dead now 2016, in fact it had a lot of Ah left,

 (and they had been shorted/overcharged
 back in 2009, badly. And only 5 of 16 cells was not big balloon-ed back then,, 

1 was slightly swollen 

 I have seen a slight increase of the balooning over
 the years now on the bad cells.  But the 4 non-balooned cells have stayed flat 
and fine over the years. 

/ John
  
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Re: [EVDL] SteveS wants to plug-in his Volt pih at or near his destination hotel ...

[Hoegberg via EV]

> From: ev...@evdl.org
> To: hoegb...@hotmail.com
> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:04:45 -0400
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] SteveS wants to plug-in his Volt pih at or near his 
> destination hotel ...
>
> On 28 Apr 2016 at 22:34, Hoegberg via EV wrote:
>
>> the main fuses is normally 16 or 20 Amp,
>>  for a house with electric heating at about (about 9kW) I think it would be
>> normal with 20,
>
> From this, it is easy to see how wasteful we are here in the USA. The main
> circuit breaker in my old house is 100 amps. New houses have 200 amp main
> breakers. Very big houses for rich people have 400 amp breakers!
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator


yes, hehe, crazycurrents! 

Due to the crazylow voltages mainly, and a lot of headroom on the main fuses?

So what is the normal house consumption/year ?
 (without the EV-charging )

for older(1700-1900 almost and non-insulated houses) I guess it is normally 
about 15-25 000 kwh/year

New houses can be almost energy neutral,  :-)
But the rules still allows a lot net consumption

I think the modern building rules allows a private house or an apartment 
building to consume maximum 50-45 kwh/m2 / year. (South Sweden, electric 
heating)


// John
  
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Upgraded 2016 Tesla-S 90D is the first 300mi/483km production Electric car

[Hoegberg via EV]

> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 13:02:36 -0400
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Upgraded 2016 Tesla-S 90D is the first 300mi/483km 
> production Electric car
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> On 2 May 2016 at 5:45, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
>> Tesla's updated Model S 90D ... 285.7-mile city range ... 303.2-mile
>> highway range.
>
> Interesting. Every other EV I know of (including conversions) gets markedly
> better range in city driving than on the highway. Is the Tesla S so
> aerodynamic that its friction losses are higher than its aero losses? Or is
> it just wasting more energy than other EVs when it's "idling"?
>


Mmm, 
"
While the 2015 85D had MPGe ratings 
of 95 city, 106 highway, 100 combined, 
the 2016 90D is rated at 101/107/103."

- I guess it CAN be linked to the very oversized motor/s,
 the eff. numbers at the very low partial load in city steady slow trafic must 
be insane, right?


// John
  
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Re: [EVDL] SteveS wants to plug-in his Volt pih at or near his destination hotel ...

[Hoegberg via EV]

> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:46:21 -0700
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] SteveS wants to plug-in his Volt pih at or near his 
> destination hotel ...
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> Standard wall plug in Netherlands and Germany are fused with 16A (230V)
> while in UK I believe it is 13A.
> It is relatively easy to get a 25A 3-phase outlet (400V) for things like 
> power tools or an electric stove cooktop. I was even allowed to install the 
> house wiring and outlet for it, after which the utility company came to 
> switch out the single phase meter for a 3-phase one, no other cost than an 
> increase in monthly pay for the 3-phase connection instead of single phase.
> But that was many moons ago.

wow, extra fee to get 3phase ,
 but that was in the Netherlands and Germany, right?

Here (Sweden) I assume they will probably charge us a lot extra IF we 
wanted to load down the grid out of balance with only 1 phase and large main 
fuse :-)
but who would want to do that? anything over 10A should be 3phase, in my 
opinion. hehe.

In Sweden it is 6,10,16, 20, 32 that is the most common plug current 

and the main fuses is normally 16 or 20 Amp,
 for a house with electric heating at about (about 9kW) I think it would be 
normal with 20,
 I have 20A mains but would probably do well on 16 also if I dont run
 the heater and "boiler" at the same time as the microwave, cookingplates and 
things like that.

(It is also possible to install relays that cut the power to for example the 
hot water heater for the short time as that the micro or stove is at full power)
  


> 3phase FTW!   ;-)
>
>
> // John
>

// John
  
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Re: [EVDL] SteveS wants to plug-in his Volt pih at or near his destination hotel ...

[Hoegberg via EV]

> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:04:40 +
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] SteveS wants to plug-in his Volt pih at or near his 
> destination hotel ...
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> Hard to say if hotels, motels are a good venue for charge points, long
> term. I know this sounds really bizarre - one's first thought is, yes,
> that's a very logical place to charge. But here are my thoughts.
>
> 1. Today most people driving far enough to need a hotel aren't driving
> an EV.
>
>
> 3. Level 1 charging won't be enough for people driving long distances.
> Assume even 200 mile range on a charge. That would mean about a 60kWh
> battery. To charge that in 8 hours requires 7.5kW. That would require
> a 70A circuit at 110 volts.

or.. about 10.4 Amps here in EU? + losses. 
(at powerfactor 1.0) 

3phase FTW!   ;-)


// John



  
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Re: [EVDL] Updated: Outdoor home EVSE: Installing External ChargeAccess

[Hoegberg via EV]

> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 14:02:10 -0800
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Updated: Outdoor home EVSE: Installing External 
> ChargeAccess
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> Mike,
> L1 is only 110V as fas as I know,
> so 240V 50A is more than most L2 can sustain and definitely L2.
> I think many countries do not have L1 where the household supply is 230V
> (delivered as 3-phase 400V to reduce copper usage by 1/3 since
> the "Neutral" return only needs to be the same gauge as of each of the
> phases, since the phases partially cancel each other,

-Hm, I have almost forgotten about the situation in your place

how do you do 1 phase motors efficient? I dont get it
Say if you have a large motor? for example *over* 2kW 
that is about what a normal 1.5mm2 cable for 1phase 
can do here, over that level it really starts to be 
a bit crazy to use a 1 phase motor here

BTW
I think here (Sweden) the maximum "unbalanced" *feed in* 
power at 1 of the phases(=230V) is about 3500 W, after that 
it is "illegal" / not allowed by the powercompany to install. 
And about 4600W allowed unbalanced power in Germany 
(feed in = for example grid tied solar, or the steamengine :-)



But what if you need to connect your 40 kW windmill at 
your 1phase house ? that would demand insane cables 
and crazy currents at the very low voltage us-system.

And do you still *always* use only 1 wire(phase) systems 
instead of 3 , even if it is rotating stuff you need in the endpoint?
(like motors or generators)

what if you get a bigger async motor, how to turn that efficient if 
there is no rotating field between the normal L1,L2,L3 at the terminals?  :-)
Do you use inverters for your big motors/generators to generate the 3phases?




> which is similar to the common US "two phase" system that saves 1/4 of
> the copper as also here the Neutral is the same gauge as the 2 phase
> wires instead of double the surface.

-Sometimes it is just 3 of the powerwires +shield(connected to earth/ground)
and sometimes it is no shield. (+neutral +protective earth)

Because if you have no 230V-stuff (1phase = 230V) at 
the end of the 400Vac motor cable, then you probably dont need the neutral 
anyway





> The standard household outlets in Europe are 230V 16A which means that
> they can deliver about 3kW continuously 

- Almost correct, I think

The old standard is called Schuko, se pictures 
http://www.internationalconfig.com/icc6.asp?item=70141
that translate to "safety-plug", I guess.. and I remember reading 
that it is not always specified to be continuous used at max load. 
i think it is 6hour at 16A. but did not find that now,
So about 3600W resistive load.

Also some have 1phase blueplug=230V outdoors, a 16Amp Europlug. 
it is similar to the normal industrial 3phase "redplugs", red =400V
("IEC 60309" , but they are 16A @ 6h rating.  but it is more robust,
   have lock, & IP44 if they are mounted to face downwards)

 -But of course it is only ok with 16A per phase if you 
 have copper enough and then fuses for this.
16Amp needs the fat cables of 2.5mm2 inside 
the walls to be correct. 1.5mm2 will get hot.. 

Normal households plugs here have 1.5 mm2 and 10Amp fuses
So that is enough for about 2.3kW resistive per group and 
1 phase plug(s) = 230V = and we use neutral for return.



(I assume it CAN be ok / legal to install a wall-charger at 
"400Vac from 2 phases", then we use no neutral 
as I think 400 Volt also is the voltage between 2 phases, 
in that way you get even more power(4kw?) 
out from 2pcs of 10A 1.5mm2wires :-)
and if we have 16A 2-phase I think it wil be: 
400V*16A =6400W @1.5mm2 :-P

but.. you should of course NOT use a "230V 1-phase" 
shucko/IEC-plugs at a 400Vac extensioncord.., as dangerous 
fuckups *will* occur later when you plug in something 
else there, that cant handle you nice and lethal illegal 400Vac "230"-cord  
:-) 




> incidentally the older Leaf L2
> charger power spec (half the full L2 spec of 6kW of 240V 24A which maxes
> out a standard 30A dryer outlet)

And 6kW switchmode 3phase chargers would only be 
about 8.7 amps here = we use 1.5mm2 copper.
(my houses main fuses are 20Amp)
 
3phase FTW ! ;-)


/ John
  
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Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] Ten states impose flat EV fees, Georgia is highest

[Hoegberg via EV]

Uhm.. ?
So the new upcoming global idea from usa in UN will be that the ones that 
actually DO solve the 
main problem in the years to come, to get us all fossil free ASAP, ..they will 
also have highest tax, ..and that solutionPunishment starts now??

 Or is it an extra-tax forced to all kind of vehicles in states/usa,, both gas 
and 
electrics, to share the local economical "loss" of fossil related money-making 
in your local country?

In general.. Making local money with a main focus of a more *inefficient* usage 
of 
fossil fuel  and try to reach even higher global pollution costs ...that seems 
not like a very good idea right now, ParisMeeting and all.. Right? 




> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:45:27 -0700
> To: bruce...@operamail.com; ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] Ten states impose flat EV fees, Georgia is highest
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> The Idaho charges aren't QUITE as bad as they look ($100 hybrid and $150 EV). 
> Due to a shortfall in road maintenance revenue, they passed a law this year 
> charging an additional levy when vehicle license is renewed. Normal vehicles 
> also get an extra tax, but less than above. I believe the non hybrid vehicle 
> fee is about $40.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On December 6, 2015 1:59:57 AM MST, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>>
>>http://www.autoblog.com/2015/12/01/ten-states-impose-ev-flat-fees-georgia-highest/
>>Ten states impose EV flat fees; Georgia is highest
>>Dec 1st 2015 Danny King
>>
>>[image
>>http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-shared/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/800x450/format/jpg/quality/85/http://hss-prod.hss.aol.com/hss/storage/midas/a61247bb248c07ecbd3ff545ce8ea090/203057143/41e7831c9fda4726ac9a33fa2f9a3666.jpeg
>>]
>>
>>Washington, Colorado, Virginia And Oregon Also On Growing List
>>
>>Plug-in vehicle advocates will certainly have Georgia on their mind
>>after
>>reviewing a US Department of Energy list of the ten states that impose
>>special fees for plug-in vehicles. These fees were put into place in
>>order
>>to offset the revenue shortfall from more fuel efficient vehicles,
>>electrified powertrains, and the resulting lower gas taxes. Georgia
>>charges
>>the highest fee out of any state in the country for plug-in vehicles.
>>Idaho
>>is a distant second.
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences

[Hoegberg via EV]

 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:00:00 +
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org

 Hello Michael,
 Some companies do not pay a lot of attention to their website and rely on 
 their marketing department.  EnerDel is an OEM supplier and I suspect not 
 interested in attracting hobbyists via the internet.
 The product, cell to complete battery systems, is made in the Indiana 
 facilities.  There were 2 plants operating when I toured last, about 2 years 
 ago.  One place made the cells starting with slurry mix.  They were 
 transferred to the other plant to complete formation and packaging or 
 assembly into modules.  They are LiNMC chemistry.  They make one basic cell 
 there in several varieties.
 The pdf you linked shows 2 cell varieties.  The CE175-360 is 17.5Ah and 
 indicated at 2500 cycles to 80%.  The CP160-365 is 16Ah and indicated at 3000 
 cycles to 85%.  I believe the test procedures can be found by searching for 
 USCAR Advanced Battery Consortium. 
 Jeff M


Hmm,

But the problem with these cells seems to be a very short life at elevated 
temperatures 
It would be VERY interesting to look at a test from cells in the IEC 61427 
evaluation (with voltages adjusted for the Li-chemistry)

Especially the phase B part might give these cells even a shorter life than 
Lead Acids??

The complete test (cycles and capacity testing) is performed under elevated 
temperature (+40 °C ± 3 °C) 

Phase B, shallow cycling at high stage of charge”
100  cycles discharge with current = 1,25 * I 10 [A] for 2h
recharge with current = I 10 [A] for 6h 

capacity test: discharge with current = I 10 [A] final voltage = 1.80Vpc
recharge to fully charged condition

http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/RE_IEC61427_Premium.pdf
http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal2009/BruhlPaper2009FINAL_17.pdf



Enerdel;
 please look at the cycle test i graph at the last page
It says c/2 , so it is 2 hours up, + 2 hours down for each cycle(?)

http://www.enerdel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Cell-Binder.pdf
 
So I guess that will be a total of 4hours time for each cycle (right?), 
and about 6 months only in total at this elevated temperature, 
and not long time was spent at SOC = full then.  Right?

the graph indicates just 1000, at 45 degrees.
but combine that with TIME.. 
and closer to normal/ full SOC, 

The graph in the lower right side also indicate only 
6 Years life(?) at only 30 degrees cell temp, and that was at low 75% SOC..  
:-/   




/ John


  
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Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] EVLN: Will replacement USPS mail-trucks be Electric?

[Hoegberg via EV]

 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 20:06:48 +
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] EVLN: Will replacement USPS mail-trucks be 
 Electric?
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org

 Actually, the Nissan e-NV200 could be an option. Here, in Seattle, the
 USPS mostly uses minivans for delivery. (They have their stepvans for
 package delivery making separate routes.)

 I don't know if it has enough range for a full day or not. But, with a
 20 minute quick charge during lunch, I'm sure it would.

Range would be a big problem here, (I assume the driver has a routes of about 
400km a day, and no charge time would be possible)  but maybe as an inner city 
delivery company only then it would probably work.


 What would it take to get USPS to start replacing their 12mpg(*)

-A miracle ? :-)

UPS is one of the most stupid delivery company on earth, drivers are not alowed 
to have a phone so they can ask for directions.. AND not allowed to have 
GPS!!??! Well..Good luck with that in Sweden, our country is not made of square 
blocks.  :-P 

it is common that they drive the daily 350 km with an insane bad aero truck 
just to find out that they cant find the way to the customer,  the last 2km or 
so..

They sometimes print out the Googlemaps-route instead, for the poor stressed 
out driver to use,, 
I got packages with 5 different zoom levels taped to the boxes.. wow.

The thing also have one of the lowest ratings I have ever seen on any company


 minivans with EVs? What would USPS driver acceptance be for a vehicle
 that is already well accepted by others?

The driver is not the problem, they are in general good.. 
But it is an US-based company, and ruled by some very stubborn top dogs 
dictators without common sense. and without Ears?  :-)

I dont know if google translate will do a good job on the reviews, but it 
should be a good laugh to read and a hint about how to NOT run a delivery 
company!
http://gulasidorna.eniro.se/f/ups-united-parcel-service-sweden-ab:3513033
http://translate.google.se/#sv/en/ 

/ John
  
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Admits Bolt EV Confusion, ? A r:200mi compliance-EV-gen2 ?

[Hoegberg via EV]

 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 08:55:57 -0500
 To: bruce...@operamail.com; ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Admits Bolt EV Confusion, ? A r:200mi 
 compliance-EV-gen2 ?
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 The Bolt/Volt confusion is just another example of refusing to learn from
 past mistakes.  What happens when you call your new model a Nova in Spanish
 speaking countries?  You're telling your customers your car won't go.
 

Haha, yes, its hard to chose new names that will be OK everywhere..

 Or , for example Honda Pussy here in Europe, ..wow..what an epic fail!
(yes..exactly that, ..the female part) This marketing did NOT end so well for 
Honda.., 
it is still a lot of jokes about this car on the net :-)  So maybe it actually 
WAS a god marketing? :-)


At great expenses they later had to change it to Honda Fit, not as in the 
original commercials where it was Honda Fitta  , ( FITTA = PUSSY)

I think they even had to change the name completely in some markets, like here 
in EU, as people had just endless jokes about it, the new small imported Asian 
Fitta that was on sale. Would you pay that much for a used Fitta? , ..Hmm, 
This Fitta looks small on the outside, but surprisingly large wen you get 
inside it.., , and just endless about periods and need for good lubrication, 
..bring your friends to try your FITTA, This FITTA has room for All the 
Family, everyone can use it.. 
..and so on and on , 

So they later had to change it to Honda Jizz instead..  hrm, JAZZ!   :-P

Here is some more Swedish and international funny Fails!,
 
http://www.amelia.se/artiklar/lost-in-translation-8-olyckliga-produktnamn-och-reklammissar-som-aldrig-borde-ha-gatt-igenom/
   So even IKEA and others DO mistakes, and they do it over and over again, 
even when they actually know the en/de/se/es languages very well..  

(maybe that page dont translate so well with google.. But you will for 
sure be able to spot some of the big marketing mistakes, even if this page are 
written in Swedish.)


Or the Swedish large producer of sweetcrackers that made a 2-pack..
http://gfx2.aftonbladet-cdn.se/image/14410726/485/normal/2356d0fd46ccf/BALLERINA-1.jpg
The outside wrap masks out the original print on the tubes of the popular 
chocolate crackers Ballerina, 

Just a small problem here with that product wrapp, as Balle = your Dick.. 
So all the new 2 pack of Ballerinas in the stores did now say  dick, ..a 
smooth and creamy dick!  , 
well.. FAIL! :-)
 
Im sure there is a lot of more examples

/ John
  
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[EVDL] FW: IR cameras - energy tool

[Hoegberg via EV]

Oops, replys to list go direct to Rod (only), hmm.

OK, I try again:


 From: hoegb...@hotmail.com
 To: rodho...@ameritech.net
 Subject: RE: [EVDL] IR cameras - energy tool
 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 01:02:16 +0100

 There is at least 3 or more make/models out there in the cheap range,

 Seek Thermal:
 this was $200 usd a short while a go, (but now it seems a bit higher priced)
 and there is a very new XR model now:
 http://obtain.thermal.com/category-s/1818.htm
 I can just guess that they did run in to ramp-up problem at that low prices 
 before, now at 300 they should do good profit :-)

 FLIR:
 A iphone back-cover, that also have a built in battery.
 Compared to the Seek it has a crappy resulution (80*60pixl) , that is if we 
 only speak of LWIR-pixels.., but they do a very good overlay together with 
 an extra normal vga camera, that software then put together, give us the 
 edges on top of the blobby thermal image/movies, so the result is enhanced 
 a lot, really nice actually! Also less of visible noise than the SeekThermal. 
 And might have a more uniform measurement over the full screen, (Some say 
 Seek did have some problem with that, maybe the 
 shutter-calibration..something.. As it was like several degrees difference 
 from top of the image compared to lower part of the sensor/image.  Strange 
 error..  )

 But the thermal range of FLIR One seems very limited! only  0-100 degrees, I 
 dont know if it is just a software problem to fix that later for a more 
 usefull EV-range for us.  Also it is limited to just a very few of i-tings, 
 may be iphone 5 only, I dont know if it is hackable (angle-grinder.. :-)  for 
 ipads and so on..  Also it is a bit more expensive than SeekTermal. (For 
 RaspberryPi-guys the module can be bought also,  for more info google: 
 lepton +LWIR

 http://www.flir.com/cores/content/?id=66257
 That is the Module-page for lepton,

 (FLIR of course have a lot more modules for OEM:s and also have ready made 
 products, I like the FLIR E8 camera, and stuff like that class and up are *a 
 lot* more expensive.  Lepton on the web (module only), is now about 200 usd . 
 ( http://www.pureengineering.com/projects/lepton ) But if you have an iphone 
 5 and think you will have that phone for X more years it might be a good idea 
 to buy that complete FlirOne-product that is ready and the VGA-overlay that 
 works good,  but I would choose the SeekThermal to be compatible with Android 
 stuff in the longer run. And to get the more useful winter outdoor 
 temp-range. But is seems like it is harder to see the smaller diffs in 
 temperatures with the SeekThermal compared to FlirOne, I guess that might be 
 fixed by a software update later, or.. the noise in SeekThermal might be to 
 bad for a more narrow range)


 here is a Comparison between SeekThermal  FlirOne:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cr8oZck5m8
 Here he also shows an add on lens (for a laser cutter) that seems to work 
 very good as a macro lens here, useful for PCB-thermal images (6m30s)


 And there is also Therm-app:
 this is the next more expensive in the mobi-LWIR-camera segment,
 384 x 288 pixels  Give nice result, but 1600 usd...
 Therm-app have a *much* better IR-resolution than FlirOne,
 and it also looks(to me) a lot better than SeekThermal.
 A Side by side video here:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FvVJE-qLhw
 But very pricy for home-use.
 http://therm-app.com/product/therm-app-device/


 /John



 
 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 11:09:00 -0800
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] IR cameras - energy tool
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org

 What brand and model number were you using? I have one at work they bought 
 for $15,000 about 12 years ago,
 but the software is not compatible with newer computers, so it's time for an 
 upgrade.
 Thank Rod


 On Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:51 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV 
 ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:



 If you own an iPhone (or probably other smart phones too) you can get a 
 'caddy' that turns your phone into a TI camera. Might be a cheaper/more 
 convenient way of doing this as the dedicated cameras are, as you say, quite 
 exy! Have a look on eBay etc. MW



 On 24 Jan 2015, at 16:12, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I borrowed an IR camera to look around the house. Its amazing waht these
 $400 cameras can see. In my old house, I can see vertical columns in the
 walls where the blown in insulation never reached.


  
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Hoegberg via EV]

Yes, 
Solar inverters, for example SMA uses the PV-arrays constant current output 
to fint the Maximum power point of the source,

They sink the source deep down in voltage to find the optimum current*voltage , 
To find the load at the moment that produces the panels Arrays max output 
Power.
 
,
So,
 that is not a good thing if we use a solar inverter and put a big 
strong battery as the PV-array-source and sinks it to zero volt to 
find the sources max currents after the max voltag :-)  BAM!  ? 

http://www.aurora-energy.com/iv-curve-of-a-solar-panel/
http://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/solar-cell-operation/iv-curve

Im
 not good at designing electronics, but maybe some of you can design a 
currentsource that mimics the PV array?  To put between the inverter 
and battery,

And also give it a maximum output current... 4000 
amp non regulated input current ( ..the BAM!) is not good for my solar 
inverter when it hunts down the I V  curve  to find the max,

  I believe that they do not have a fast max current protection inside them at 
all, 
probably they just uses the max current output from the array. 

/ John


 

 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:00:28 -0800
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org

 Many solar inverters can be (user) configured to do different types of
 optimization, so they can be adapted to different solar panels and even
 different inputs (wind, battery bank) but I did not see which inverter
 you use, so it is not possible to say if *your* inverter can handle
 batteries as a source. Some (cheap) PV optimizers short-circuit the
 panel when they do not need the power from it. Obviously that is a bad
 idea when using a battery as the source instead of a solar panel.

 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
 Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
 Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via
 EV
 Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 1:08 PM
 To: John Lussmyer; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

 On Dec 21, 2014, at 1:53 PM, John Lussmyer via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:

 Actually, bad assumption. Many/Most PV Inverters don't like being fed
 from batteries. Throws off their attempts to find the Max Power Point.

 I didn't know that. Would it matter that the batteries would mostly be
 feeding the inverter only when the panels aren't producing?

 Also, PV inverters are more expensive than regular inverters.

 Well, the system is already in place and has been for a few years. I've
 already got the inverter, in other words. Seems like, unless it's likely
 to do bad things, it's better to spend no money on a less-than-perfect
 but still-usable solution, than to spend more money to get a better
 version of something I already have that'll work.

 So...is it a matter of this not being the ideal way to design the system
 if starting from scratch, or of this being something that's workable at
 all?

 Or...are regular inverters so inexpensive relative to the total
 battery system cost that I'm being silly for not considering one as part
 of the cost of the system...?

 b
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Re: [EVDL] BiPolar NiMH (was: Kawasaki Concept J 3wheel GIGACELL powered EV)

[Hoegberg via EV]

 To: michael.e.r...@gmail.com; ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:39:17 +1200
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] BiPolar NiMH (was: Kawasaki Concept J 3wheel GIGACELL 
 powered EV)
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 I can only talk about the D Cell battery of the original Prius, I have
 worked on many of those, changed many cells, tested them to see what is
 wrong, etc. I have not seen ANY lose capacity. What happens is some cells
 suffer from increased self discharge. I measure at 1.270 V, this is about
 where they are normally. Leave it charging at this voltage on a precision 4
 wire charger until the current stabilizes. A good cell has 0.01 mA leakage,
 one that causes a problem will be 5mA. Some cells are 50mA.
   When a car has been driven until the wheels stop turning the pack is
 wrecked, most of the cells are bad, many have leaked. I think this a due to
 overcharging. Any cell that gets reversed very quickly loses electrolyte,
 avoid these conditions and they have a long life, of course it it the best
 cells that are damaged by overcharging. I have one car that still has the
 original battery apart from a few cells I have changed, this was made in
 1998. The Prius has no balancing mechanism, apart from charging the whole
 pack so that the high cells are overcharged.
 


-Thank you for adding this knowledge/info about your method,
 
I use Honda cells from a scrap car for some projects.
The useful capacity seems to be lower in this model, about 4.5Ah, 

charging eff. seems ok if i dont top them of with 
a overcharge and heat them at every cycle.  

They are good powercells. 
But therefore not so high Wh/kg

Very stiff until they go below this 4-4.5Ah level in discharge,  
I also limit them to only about 120 amp discharges.

probably they are about 5.5 Ah capacity if I max 
them out at lower rates, but as you say, I guess 
that is a very bad idea with this type of chemistry.

/John
  
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Re: [EVDL] V2G at L1 is practical

[Hoegberg via EV]

[ That one below was aimed for the list, 
hotmail seems not to like the new evdl-settings, a reply goes only to 
the original sender. I noticed it to late.   / John ] 


From: hoegb...@hotmail.com
To: leeah...@earthlink.net
Subject: RE: [EVDL] V2G at L1 is practical
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 13:28:36 +0200






 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 18:30:06 -0500
 To: pe...@kotatko.com; ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] V2G at L1 is practical
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
  You wouldn't even need a central instruction.  It could be the same V2G
  electronics, but only one way.  That is, when there's a dip in voltage
  charging decreases.  The bigger the dip, the more the charge shuts down.
 
  I suppose it could also react to spikes and absorb extra current for a
  moment, too.
 
  But it wouldn't put anything back into the grid.
 
 Frankly, I think the quest for perfect power factor 1.0 chargers is a 
 waste of time and money (in America, at least). *Nothing else* in our 
 homes is power factor corrected. No one is trying to impose extra cost 
 and mandate 1.0 PF for anything else. Everyone would holler!

Hmm, isnt everything *new* and larger than x Watt or so made
to have a PF of 1 nowdays? a Rule/Law?  (At least in Europe )

As far as I know everyone also do have Reactive-blink
 LED  +the normal kWh Blinker on the meter,  but i think 
the power companies just remote-monitor the consumers 
now, so no charge for the losses (yet..), 

industrial customers pay and many compensate 
locally (capacitors) for bad PF, to be able to save 
money, but also to be able to increase the output 
at the site, I assume.

In the US it might even save more from resistive losses, if they did it right?  
As you have so very low voltage lines. 


 
 I think a better solution would be to make a charger that *compensates* 
 for the power factor of the home as a whole. That is, since most home 

Yes. I think we can do that here with the solar inverters if we like to. Make 
them produce Capacitive power  :-)   But as no one yet get charged on 
individual level there is not many asking for this. But some do.

Lee: if I use an Async motor to generate power to the grid (Like in a small 
vind turbine, by overspeeding the motor it runs as a generator) But will that 
still be reactive power(inductive) The current is on the other side of grid 
wave now, ..i assume, as it tries to increase the grid frequency, or? .. Hmm I 
feel that i'm a bit out of phase here :-)  

/John

  
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