Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 7 Dec 2018 at 16:58, Steve Heath via EV wrote:

> The car is here:  http://www.evalbum.com/5368

Impressive!  Even more so when you consider the low cost of conversion.  
Well done.

You're absolutely right about the dismaying bloat of modern cars.  For EV 
conversions, a light glider is the secret to good range and performance 
without a high conversion cost.

In the early 1970s I owned a 1965 Opel Kadett Coupe.  It would have almost 
certainly made for a successful conversion, though I didn't consider it 
then.  

It was dirt-simple: manual brakes and steering, roll-up windows, heating and 
ventilation controlled by plain mechanical linkages.  The wiring diagram 
took up just 2 pages in the shop manual.  No computers, of course.  

All up weight was under 1500lb (670kg) with a GWVR of almost 2300lb.  

Best of all, it had a nice big square trunk. Pushing the GWVR a bit, I could 
probably have put 800lb of lead in there and under the hood.  I expect that 
12 golf car batteries (72 volts) would have given me a solid 40+mi of range. 
With modern batteries, much more.

https://postimg.cc/dZ01vRf5

https://postimg.cc/bs35sxBQ

A somewhat more recent light car for EV conversion is the mid-1980s Suzuki 
Swift (Chevrolet Sprint in the US) at 620 to 750kg  (Sprint: 680kg/1500lb).  
Unfortunately I suspect that these aren't much easier than mid-60s Opels to 
find in usable condition.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Nice job, Steve ! Compliments to you.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Heath" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc:
Sent: 07-Dec-18 8:58:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


The car is here:  http://www.evalbum.com/5368

It's the result of a bet that I couldn't built an EV for £750 (1000$). 
It is basically an urban run around as most of my driving is in and 
around Milton Keynes which has the highest density of ev charging 
points in the UK and many are free! It became part of my PhD studies. 
The area is full of gently rolling hills and is not flat which would 
help and yes power consumption is often higher in one direction than 
the other.


I simulated many donor cars and came to the conclusion that the biggest 
factors in efficiency were weight and friction/aerodynamic losses. 
Interestingly if you look at the weight of European vehicles of the 
last 20 years today's vehicles have doubled in weight compared to their 
20 year ancestors despite the use of lightweight materials. Some of it 
is improved safety but a lot of it are the extra gizmos that are deemed 
essential for today's market. Do away with those and the weight comes 
tumbling down.  So I selected a Reliant Kitten and found one that was 
being used as a chicken coop in a barn.


The result is a vehicle that weighs only 545kg including batteries 
which means I'm not expending energy moving things like electric 
windows, power steering etc etc. There is no wiring loom just a CAN bus 
and power and all the ancillaries are controlled by multiple micros. 
All the lights etc are LED including the headlamps, heating is done by 
taking the hot air from the motor cooling fan and ducting it into the 
vehicle. The whole vehicle is designed to be as miserly as possible. 
That is why it gets the good figures. Unfortunately the car has the 
aerodynamics of a brick but there may be some room for improvement.


It has also allowed me to do some clever power management to get the 
most from the batteries. One big improvement is the 22x 2600F 
ultracapacitor pack that is connected in parallel with the batteries. 
These smooth out the power surges and allow more power to be harvested 
during regen because they can accept higher charging currents than the 
battery packs. End result is better battery life and the ability to 
extract a bit more capacity.  It is quite fun watching the fuel gauge 
fill up when braking.


Anyway I can cope with manually winding the window up and down, locking 
the doors individually etc for the 1.5p (2 cents) a mile it costs to 
run. Especially as gas/diesel is around £6 (7.2$) a gallon in the UK!


If I had the aerodynamics of a Leaf, I'm sure I could get the figure to 
around 100 wh/mile. Not totally sure it would be cost effective though!




Steve


On 07/12/2018 15:34, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Steve,
Is your worst case really 230 Wh / mile? That's rather incredible 
(translates to 4.3 miles / kWh). That's around the *best* I ever get 
with my Leaf, in summer. What are you driving, and where?

Peri




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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Lee Hart via EV]

Steve Heath via EV wrote:

I'm not sure that I understand what the further complications are.  As
far as I can see, it should be just simple math. The energy use measured at
the motor should be the same as the energy consumed at the battery, minus
some percentage for losses in the controller, which will vary with
conditions, but can be averaged. Am I missing something?



Not really but there are other factors that come into play such as
battery recovery time, regen and so on. It makes these losses very
difficult to calculate as they are non-linear and condition dependent.
Averaging is better than nothing.


Yes, it's better than ignoring them. However, most of these losses are 
non-linear. For example, resistive losses in the motor, batteries, and 
wiring go up as the square of the current; not linearly. Controller and 
charger efficiency are highly non-linear as well. The batteries have 
something called the Peukert effect, which means their apparent amphour 
capacity goes down as current rises.



The level of effect is also dependent on how much leeway you have in your
vehicle.  To me it is very important as I have a small battery pack - it
is now around 6-7kw - and saving 10 or 20 watts per mile can make a big
difference.


I agree. For most of the history of EVs, our battery packs have always 
been "small" compared to a tank of gasoline. It has forced EV'ers to 
think about efficiency.



All this is all to do with removing/reducing range anxiety. Matters are
not helped when power consumption doubles when the heater is on. Why
manufacturers don't have a separate battery pack for the ancillaries so
that their use does not reduce the driving range, I don't know.
Presumably it is cost and the amount of power needed to power all the
gizmos that marketing insist must be present.  Anyway getting away from
the original topic.


It makes more sense to have one big battery than two smaller ones, only 
one of which is used to propel the car. Range inevitably drops when the 
heater or A/C is used. But that's true for ICEs as well (though not so 
much for the heater; ICE's have more heat than they know what to do with).


On the amount of power cars use: We go out of our way to have efficient 
home heating and cooling systems. We have portable clocks, computers, 
and radios that use tiny amounts of power. But cars (including EVs) are 
still designed for the "oil age" when power is infinite and free.


It takes more power to heat or cool a car than an entire apartment. Cars 
have negligible insulation, lots of air leaks, and are all single-pane 
windows. Most of the lights are still tungsten bulbs. A car's clock, 
radio, and computers use 100's of times more power than your other 
battery-operated clocks, radios, or computers. The automakers have 
simply not had to think about power.


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Steve Heath via EV]

The car is here:  http://www.evalbum.com/5368

It's the result of a bet that I couldn't built an EV for £750 (1000$). 
It is basically an urban run around as most of my driving is in and 
around Milton Keynes which has the highest density of ev charging points 
in the UK and many are free! It became part of my PhD studies. The area 
is full of gently rolling hills and is not flat which would help and yes 
power consumption is often higher in one direction than the other.


I simulated many donor cars and came to the conclusion that the biggest 
factors in efficiency were weight and friction/aerodynamic losses. 
Interestingly if you look at the weight of European vehicles of the last 
20 years today's vehicles have doubled in weight compared to their 20 
year ancestors despite the use of lightweight materials. Some of it is 
improved safety but a lot of it are the extra gizmos that are deemed 
essential for today's market. Do away with those and the weight comes 
tumbling down.  So I selected a Reliant Kitten and found one that was 
being used as a chicken coop in a barn.


The result is a vehicle that weighs only 545kg */including batteries/* 
which means I'm not expending energy moving things like electric 
windows, power steering etc etc. There is no wiring loom just a CAN bus 
and power and all the ancillaries are controlled by multiple micros. All 
the lights etc are LED including the headlamps, heating is done by 
taking the hot air from the motor cooling fan and ducting it into the 
vehicle. The whole vehicle is designed to be as miserly as possible. 
That is why it gets the good figures. Unfortunately the car has the 
aerodynamics of a brick but there may be some room for improvement.


It has also allowed me to do some clever power management to get the 
most from the batteries. One big improvement is the 22x 2600F 
ultracapacitor pack that is connected in parallel with the batteries. 
These smooth out the power surges and allow more power to be harvested 
during regen because they can accept higher charging currents than the 
battery packs. End result is better battery life and the ability to 
extract a bit more capacity.  It is quite fun watching the fuel gauge 
fill up when braking.


Anyway I can cope with manually winding the window up and down, locking 
the doors individually etc for the 1.5p (2 cents) a mile it costs to 
run. Especially as gas/diesel is around £6 (7.2$) a gallon in the UK!


If I had the aerodynamics of a Leaf, I'm sure I could get the figure to 
around 100 wh/mile. Not totally sure it would be cost effective though!



Steve


On 07/12/2018 15:34, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Steve,
Is your worst case really 230 Wh / mile? That's rather incredible 
(translates to 4.3 miles / kWh). That's around the *best* I ever get 
with my Leaf, in summer. What are you driving, and where?

Peri



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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Steve,
Is your worst case really 230 Wh / mile? That's rather incredible 
(translates to 4.3 miles / kWh). That's around the *best* I ever get 
with my Leaf, in summer. What are you driving, and where?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Heath" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc:
Sent: 06-Dec-18 9:28:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

It could well be. The charts you refer to have so many caveats that the 
figures are only a very rough guide.  This is one of the major problem 
of calculating range.


The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average 
is 190 and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the 
distance. i.e. measuring the amount of power supplied by the batteries 
to travel the distance. This is not the same as the amount of power 
from the plug to charge the batteries nor is it the same power that the 
motor uses which causes further complications. The distances btw are 
also near the theoretical maximum that my battery pack can support so 
that the effect of the battery capacity curve cancels out.


If I use the capacity used based on voltage then it can get very silly. 
I was getting figures of 600-700 w/mile because the voltage vs soc is 
non linear. I could drive 25% of the range and the capacity would drop 
to 50%. This did not make sense so I stopped using them and fitted 
coulomb counters. I do use the voltage to predict low battery but the 
rest of the data is just a rough guide. The gauge does  look pretty on 
the dash though.


Get the Leafspy and start collecting your own data and use that to 
build up the values for your car. That will indicate exactly what is 
happening.



Cheers

Steve


On 06/12/2018 16:24, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be 
inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how 
efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).


I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's 
where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2 
device?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Heath" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri 
Hartman" 

Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" 
Sent: 06-Dec-18 8:00:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot 
of stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the 
efficiency of the car.


I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising 
and there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15% 
difference is consumption in my experience.


I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps 
compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate 
from.


Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting 
instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the 
chargers and these agree within 1%.  I also have a voltage system 
that monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if  that 
will force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level. 
What is interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well 
consistent but the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%.  
LiION batteries are very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage 
except for the two extremes.


So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity 
estimate from the voltage can and does vary.


So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing 
power has gone.


I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.

Definitely worth getting more accurate data.



On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and 
a
quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed 
health

and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
capacity.

You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake 
issues
are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the 
brakes

don't get warmed/worked out much.


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:



Thanks, Collin.
That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Collin Kidder" 
To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"

Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 
miles.

The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
Winter and 60-70

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 7 Dec 2018 at 10:30, Steve Heath via EV wrote:

> To me it is very important as I have a small battery
> pack - it is now around 6-7kw - and saving 10 or 20 watts per mile can make a
> big difference.

Better extend that detention. :-)  I don't mean to make a big deal about 
this, but saying your battery capacity is 6-7kW is kind of like saying your 
ICEV's gas tank holds 20 horsepower.  

Kilowatts are a measure of power.  You want Kilowatt HOURS, the measure of 
energy stored in the battery.

> 
> All this is all to do with removing/reducing range anxiety. 

If you have a 7kWh battery, I can see why that would be important.  :-(

> Why manufacturers don't have a separate battery pack for the
> ancillaries so that their use does not reduce the driving range, I
> don't know. 

There's actually a good reason for that.  When you weren't using the heater, 
you'd be carrying around useless dead weight.  

It's because an EV has only so much room and weight capacity for the 
battery.  If you dedicated part of that space to a battery solely for heat 
and other extras, it would just be sitting there when you didn't need it, 
adding weight but not range.  

It turns out that the most efficient and cost-effective way to handle these 
extras is to make the traction battery as big as it can be (given space, 
weight and cost considerations), and power the extras from the traction 
battery.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Steve Heath via EV]

On 06/12/2018 22:09, Roger Stockton via EV wrote:

Steve Heath wrote:


The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average
is 190 and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the
distance.

I think you are meaning to state 180-230 Wh/mi?  180-230 mile/kWh would be 
extremely unusual efficiency for an on-road EV, and mile/kW just doesn’t make any 
sense ;^>

I am currently in detention for the typos...



If I use the capacity used based on voltage then it can get very silly.
I was getting figures of 600-700 w/mile because the voltage vs soc is
non linear. I could drive 25% of the range and the capacity would drop
to 50%. This did not make sense so I stopped using them and fitted
coulomb counters. I do use the voltage to predict low battery but the
rest of the data is just a rough guide. The gauge does  look pretty on
the dash though.

I understand your reasoning for not using battery voltage to estimate state of 
charge, but when you quote any efficiency values involving Wh or kWh (Wh/mi or 
mi/kWh), you are, of course, taking battery voltage into account because power 
depends upon both the battery voltage and current, and so, therefore, does 
energy in Wh or kWh.

Pure coulomb-counting will only give you energy usage in mi/Ah, which may be 
useful in the context of your own EV, but does not allow comparison to the 
usage of other EVs.
Yes you are correct that coulomb counting is only part of the 
measurements. The meters I use measure the voltage at the same time and 
calculate the power, and so on.
So my EV did a 29 mile journey last night and consumed 117 aH battery 
capacity and 5.7kW which works out at 196wh/mile.


Cheers

Steve




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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Steve Heath via EV]

On 07/12/2018 01:00, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 6 Dec 2018 at 17:28, Steve Heath via EV wrote:


The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average
is 190 ...

If you're getting 190 miles per kWh, I want your EV.

I think you probably mean Wh/mile, not miles/kWh.


and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the distance.
i.e. measuring the amount of power supplied by the batteries to travel
the distance.

I think you mean energy, not power.  :-)

My apologies - you are right. I have given myself 30 minutes detention :)

This is not the same as the amount of [energy] from the plug to charge the
batteries nor is it the same [energy] that the motor uses which causes
further complications.

I'm not sure that I understand what the further complications are.  As far
as I can see, it should be just simple math.  The  energy use measured at
the motor should be the same as the energy consumed at the battery, minus
some percentage for losses in the controller, which will vary with
conditions, but can be averaged.  Am I missing something?
Not really but there are other factors that come into play such as 
battery recovery time, regen and so on. It makes these losses very 
difficult to calculate as they are non-linear and condition dependent.
Averaging is better than nothing.  The level of effect is also dependent 
on how much leeway you have in your vehicle.  To me it is very important 
as I have a small battery pack - it is now around 6-7kw - and saving 10 
or 20 watts per mile can make a big difference.


All this is all to do with removing/reducing range anxiety. Matters are 
not helped when power consumption doubles when the heater is on. Why 
manufacturers don't have a separate battery pack for the ancillaries so 
that their use does not reduce the driving range, I don't know. 
Presumably it is cost and the amount of power needed to power all the 
gizmos that marketing insist must be present.  Anyway getting away from 
the original topic.



Cheers
Steve




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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Peri,
I selected the cheapest OBD2 that stated it supports the Leaf.
There was a warning not to use rev 2 of the ELM327 as they cost-reduced the 
necessary 2nd CAN interface away
But this actually states that it is rev 1.5 so that is good. All of $8.99
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ELM327/253856037016

Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 8:24 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be 
inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how 
efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).

I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's 
where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2 
device?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Heath" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri 
Hartman" 
Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" 
Sent: 06-Dec-18 8:00:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot of 
>stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the efficiency 
>of the car.
>
>I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising and 
>there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15% difference 
>is consumption in my experience.
>
>I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps 
>compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate 
>from.
>
>Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting 
>instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the 
>chargers and these agree within 1%.  I also have a voltage system that 
>monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if  that will 
>force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level. What is 
>interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well consistent but 
>the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%.  LiION batteries 
>are very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage except for the two 
>extremes.
>
>So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity 
>estimate from the voltage can and does vary.
>
>So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing power 
>has gone.
>
>I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.
>
>Definitely worth getting more accurate data.
>
>
>
>On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
>>Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a
>>quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed 
>>health
>>and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
>>capacity.
>>
>>You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
>>including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake 
>>issues
>>are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the 
>>brakes
>>don't get warmed/worked out much.
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV  
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Thanks, Collin.
>>>That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
>>>The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
>>>Peri
>>>
>>>-- Original Message --
>>>From: "Collin Kidder" 
>>>To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
>>>
>>>Cc:
>>>Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>
>>>>I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
>>>>miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
>>>>The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
>>>>Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
>>>>be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
>>>>they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly 
>>>>over
>>>>time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
>>>>better again.
>>>>
>>>>I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter 
>>>>and
>>>>you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be 
>>>>able
>>>>to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these 
>>>>things.
>>>>I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to 
>>>>work
>>>>(there's a J177

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Lee Hart via EV]

George Tyler via EV wrote:

I know my Prius computers draw a total of 250W standing still. if the
leaf was similar, whats 250Wh consumed in an hour even if you did not move.


Just a quick data point: My wife drove our 2013 Leaf to choir practice 
this evening. Temperature about 15 deg.F. It used 40% of its charge on 
the way there with the heater on. So on the way back, she left the 
heater off (just used the seat and steering wheel heaters), and it used 
20%. So the heater is using about as much power as driving the car down 
the road.


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[George Tyler via EV]

I know my Prius computers draw a total of 250W standing still. if the 
leaf was similar, whats 250Wh consumed in an hour even if you did not move.


On 07-Dec-18 5:24 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be 
inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how 
efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).


I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's 
where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2 
device?


Peri


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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 6 Dec 2018 at 17:28, Steve Heath via EV wrote:

> The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average 
> is 190 ...

If you're getting 190 miles per kWh, I want your EV.

I think you probably mean Wh/mile, not miles/kWh.  

> and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the distance.
> i.e. measuring the amount of power supplied by the batteries to travel
> the distance. 

I think you mean energy, not power.  :-)

> This is not the same as the amount of [energy] from the plug to charge the
> batteries nor is it the same [energy] that the motor uses which causes
> further complications. 

I'm not sure that I understand what the further complications are.  As far 
as I can see, it should be just simple math.  The  energy use measured at 
the motor should be the same as the energy consumed at the battery, minus 
some percentage for losses in the controller, which will vary with 
conditions, but can be averaged.  Am I missing something?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Steve Heath wrote:

> The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average
> is 190 and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the
> distance.

I think you are meaning to state 180-230 Wh/mi?  180-230 mile/kWh would be 
extremely unusual efficiency for an on-road EV, and mile/kW just doesn’t make 
any sense ;^>

> If I use the capacity used based on voltage then it can get very silly.
> I was getting figures of 600-700 w/mile because the voltage vs soc is
> non linear. I could drive 25% of the range and the capacity would drop
> to 50%. This did not make sense so I stopped using them and fitted
> coulomb counters. I do use the voltage to predict low battery but the
> rest of the data is just a rough guide. The gauge does  look pretty on
> the dash though.

I understand your reasoning for not using battery voltage to estimate state of 
charge, but when you quote any efficiency values involving Wh or kWh (Wh/mi or 
mi/kWh), you are, of course, taking battery voltage into account because power 
depends upon both the battery voltage and current, and so, therefore, does 
energy in Wh or kWh.

Pure coulomb-counting will only give you energy usage in mi/Ah, which may be 
useful in the context of your own EV, but does not allow comparison to the 
usage of other EVs.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Steve Heath via EV]

It could well be. The charts you refer to have so many caveats that the 
figures are only a very rough guide.  This is one of the major problem 
of calculating range.


The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average 
is 190 and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the 
distance. i.e. measuring the amount of power supplied by the batteries 
to travel the distance. This is not the same as the amount of power from 
the plug to charge the batteries nor is it the same power that the motor 
uses which causes further complications. The distances btw are also near 
the theoretical maximum that my battery pack can support so that the 
effect of the battery capacity curve cancels out.


If I use the capacity used based on voltage then it can get very silly. 
I was getting figures of 600-700 w/mile because the voltage vs soc is 
non linear. I could drive 25% of the range and the capacity would drop 
to 50%. This did not make sense so I stopped using them and fitted 
coulomb counters. I do use the voltage to predict low battery but the 
rest of the data is just a rough guide. The gauge does  look pretty on 
the dash though.


Get the Leafspy and start collecting your own data and use that to build 
up the values for your car. That will indicate exactly what is happening.



Cheers

Steve


On 06/12/2018 16:24, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be 
inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how 
efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).


I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's 
where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2 
device?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Heath" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri 
Hartman" 

Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" 
Sent: 06-Dec-18 8:00:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot 
of stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the 
efficiency of the car.


I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising 
and there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15% 
difference is consumption in my experience.


I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps 
compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate from.


Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting 
instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the 
chargers and these agree within 1%.  I also have a voltage system 
that monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if  that 
will force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level. 
What is interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well 
consistent but the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%.  
LiION batteries are very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage 
except for the two extremes.


So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity 
estimate from the voltage can and does vary.


So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing 
power has gone.


I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.

Definitely worth getting more accurate data.



On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a
quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed 
health

and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
capacity.

You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake 
issues
are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the 
brakes

don't get warmed/worked out much.


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:



Thanks, Collin.
That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Collin Kidder" 
To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"

Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly 
over

time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
better again.

I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter 
and

you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
to get. B

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Steve Heath via EV]

There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot of 
stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the efficiency 
of the car.


I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising and 
there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15% difference 
is consumption in my experience.


I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps 
compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate from.


Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting 
instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the 
chargers and these agree within 1%.  I also have a voltage system that 
monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if  that will 
force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level. What is 
interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well consistent but 
the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%.  LiION batteries are 
very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage except for the two extremes.


So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity 
estimate from the voltage can and does vary.


So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing power 
has gone.


I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.

Definitely worth getting more accurate data.



On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a
quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed health
and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
capacity.

You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake issues
are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the brakes
don't get warmed/worked out much.


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:


Thanks, Collin.
That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Collin Kidder" 
To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"

Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly over
time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
better again.

I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter and
you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these things.
I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to work
(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

Cor,

So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
you're assuming is
100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?

In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.

My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the table
in
the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of my
calculations are unchanged.

Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.

If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend it,
I
might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


Capacity bars are not linear.
The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting

>from memory)

So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less
than 15kWh.
Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly

to

10 or 9 and then arrive home wit

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Peri Hartman via EV]

So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be 
inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how 
efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).


I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's 
where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2 
device?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Heath" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri 
Hartman" 

Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" 
Sent: 06-Dec-18 8:00:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot of 
stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the efficiency 
of the car.


I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising and 
there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15% difference 
is consumption in my experience.


I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps 
compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate 
from.


Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting 
instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the 
chargers and these agree within 1%.  I also have a voltage system that 
monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if  that will 
force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level. What is 
interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well consistent but 
the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%.  LiION batteries 
are very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage except for the two 
extremes.


So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity 
estimate from the voltage can and does vary.


So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing power 
has gone.


I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.

Definitely worth getting more accurate data.



On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a
quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed 
health

and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
capacity.

You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake 
issues
are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the 
brakes

don't get warmed/worked out much.


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:



Thanks, Collin.
That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Collin Kidder" 
To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"

Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly 
over

time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
better again.

I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter 
and
you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be 
able
to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these 
things.
I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to 
work
(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge 
at

home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to 
home

in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV 


wrote:

Cor,

So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
you're assuming is
100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?

In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.

My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the 
table

in
the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of 
my

calculations are unchanged.

Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.

If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend 
it,

I
might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least 
I'd

know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?

Peri

-- 

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Getting LeafSpy and an OBD2 adapter: I've thought of that before, sounds 
like a good idea. I just looked at the app description and they no 
longer make any recommendations of brands. Anyone care to make a 
recommendation of one they bought recently and works with the Leaf?


As for brake drag, it's possible, but wouldn't that be reflected in the 
kWh used? Besides, it seems that 3.2 miles / kWh is pretty good for 
winter city driving.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Haudy Kazemi" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc:
Sent: 06-Dec-18 7:23:42 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a 
quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed 
health and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 
kWh capacity.


You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise, 
including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake 
issues are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because 
the brakes don't get warmed/worked out much.



On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

Thanks, Collin.
That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Collin Kidder" 
To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"

Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
>miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
>The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
>Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
>be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
>they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly 
over

>time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
>better again.
>
>I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter 
and

>you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
>to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these 
things.
>I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to 
work

>(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
>home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
>work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
>miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
>in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
>with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.
>
>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV 


>wrote:
>>
>>Cor,
>>
>>So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
>>you're assuming is
>>100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
>>
>>In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
>>100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
>>or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
>>
>>My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the 
table

>>in
>>the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of 
my

>>calculations are unchanged.
>>
>>Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
>>
>>If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend 
it,

>>I
>>might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
>>know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
>>
>>Peri
>>
>>-- Original Message --
>>From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
>>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>>Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
>>Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>
>> >Capacity bars are not linear.
>> >The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
>> >Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken 
(quoting

>> >from memory)
>> >So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so 
less

>> >than 15kWh.
>> >Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>> >My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 
quickly

>>to
>> >10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>> >Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at 
work

>> >with still 3 bars left….
>> >I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X
>>

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a
quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed health
and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
capacity.

You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake issues
are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the brakes
don't get warmed/worked out much.


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Thanks, Collin.
> That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
> The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Collin Kidder" 
> To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> 
> Cc:
> Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>
> >I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
> >miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
> >The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
> >Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
> >be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
> >they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly over
> >time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
> >better again.
> >
> >I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter and
> >you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
> >to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these things.
> >I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to work
> >(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
> >home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
> >work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
> >miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
> >in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
> >with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.
> >
> >On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>Cor,
> >>
> >>So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
> >>you're assuming is
> >>100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
> >>
> >>In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
> >>100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
> >>or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
> >>
> >>My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the table
> >>in
> >>the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of my
> >>calculations are unchanged.
> >>
> >>Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
> >>
> >>If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend it,
> >>I
> >>might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
> >>know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
> >>
> >>Peri
> >>
> >>-- Original Message --
> >>From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
> >>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> >>Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
> >>Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
> >>
> >> >Capacity bars are not linear.
> >> >The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
> >> >Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting
> >> >from memory)
> >> >So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less
> >> >than 15kWh.
> >> >Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
> >> >My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly
> >>to
> >> >10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
> >> >Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work
> >> >with still 3 bars left….
> >> >I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X
> >>bars
> >> >is so many kWh left.
> >> >GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better
> >> >judge what your Leaf is doing.
> >> >Hope this helps,
> >> >Cor.
> >> >
> >> >Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Thanks, Collin.
That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Collin Kidder" 
To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 


Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly over
time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
better again.

I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter and
you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these things.
I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to work
(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:


Cor,

So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
you're assuming is
100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?

In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.

My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the table 
in

the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of my
calculations are unchanged.

Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.

If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend it, 
I

might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>Capacity bars are not linear.
>The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
>Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting
>from memory)
>So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less
>than 15kWh.
>Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly 
to

>10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work
>with still 3 bars left….
>I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X 
bars

>is so many kWh left.
>GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better
>judge what your Leaf is doing.
>Hope this helps,
>Cor.
>
>Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
>From: Peri Hartman via EV
>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Cc: Peri Hartman
>Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>
>Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my
>2011
>Leaf ?
>
>Temp about 45F
>Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
>"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
>Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level 
is

>9 capacity bars)
>Average 3.2 miles / kWh
>Duration about 1 hr.
>Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.
>
>For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
>For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
>Total: 5.75 kWh.
>
>According to
>https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
>5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>
>Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, 
the

>battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>
>45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
>Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 
17.

>
>Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
>range.
>
>What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>
>And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
>miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
>
>Peri

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Collin Kidder via EV]

I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly over
time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
better again.

I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter and
you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these things.
I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to work
(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> Cor,
>
> So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
> you're assuming is
> 100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
>
> In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
> 100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
> or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
>
> My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the table in
> the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of my
> calculations are unchanged.
>
> Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
>
> If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend it, I
> might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
> know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
> Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>
> >Capacity bars are not linear.
> >The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
> >Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting
> >from memory)
> >So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less
> >than 15kWh.
> >Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
> >My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly to
> >10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
> >Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work
> >with still 3 bars left….
> >I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X bars
> >is so many kWh left.
> >GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better
> >judge what your Leaf is doing.
> >Hope this helps,
> >Cor.
> >
> >Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> >
> >From: Peri Hartman via EV
> >Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
> >To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >Cc: Peri Hartman
> >Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
> >
> >Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my
> >2011
> >Leaf ?
> >
> >Temp about 45F
> >Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
> >"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
> >Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is
> >9 capacity bars)
> >Average 3.2 miles / kWh
> >Duration about 1 hr.
> >Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.
> >
> >For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
> >For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
> >Total: 5.75 kWh.
> >
> >According to
> >https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
> >5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
> >
> >Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the
> >battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
> >
> >45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
> >Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.
> >
> >Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
> >range.
> >
> >What happened to the other 4 kWh?
> >
> >And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
> >miserable winte

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Cor,

So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which 
you're assuming is

100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?

In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.

My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the table in 
the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of my 
calculations are unchanged.


Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.

If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend it, I 
might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd 
know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


Capacity bars are not linear.
The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting 
from memory)
So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less 
than 15kWh.

Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly to 
10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work 
with still 3 bars left….
I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X bars 
is so many kWh left.
GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better 
judge what your Leaf is doing.

Hope this helps,
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman
Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my 
2011

Leaf ?

Temp about 45F
Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is
9 capacity bars)
Average 3.2 miles / kWh
Duration about 1 hr.
Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.

For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
Total: 5.75 kWh.

According to
https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.

Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the
battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).

45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.

Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
range.

What happened to the other 4 kWh?

And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.

Peri
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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Um, I'm getting a drop closer to 50%.

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 3:19:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


The range in my Mitsubishi i-MiEV drops about 10% in cold weather too.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 4, 2018, at 8:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:


Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my 
2011 Leaf ?


Temp about 45F
Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level 
is 9 capacity bars)

Average 3.2 miles / kWh
Duration about 1 hr.
Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.

For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
Total: 5.75 kWh.

According to
https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.

Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, 
the battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).


45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.

Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total 
range.


What happened to the other 4 kWh?

And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had 
miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.


Peri
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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[paul dove via EV]

The range in my Mitsubishi i-MiEV drops about 10% in cold weather too.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2018, at 8:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my 2011 Leaf 
> ?
> 
> Temp about 45F
> Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
> "other systems" drawing about .25 kW
> Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is 9 
> capacity bars)
> Average 3.2 miles / kWh
> Duration about 1 hr.
> Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.
> 
> For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
> For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
> Total: 5.75 kWh.
> 
> According to
> https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
> 5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
> 
> Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the 
> battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
> 
> 45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
> Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.
> 
> Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total range.
> 
> What happened to the other 4 kWh?
> 
> And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had 
> miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
> 
> Peri
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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[ken via EV]

 is there something Leaf Spyto see if you have a weak cell or
other losses ?

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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Capacity bars are not linear.
The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting from 
memory)
So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less than 
15kWh.
Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly to 10 or 9 
and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work with still 
3 bars left….
I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X bars is so 
many kWh left.
GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better judge 
what your Leaf is doing.
Hope this helps,
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman
Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my 2011 
Leaf ?

Temp about 45F
Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is 
9 capacity bars)
Average 3.2 miles / kWh
Duration about 1 hr.
Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.

For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
Total: 5.75 kWh.

According to
https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.

Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the 
battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).

45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.

Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total 
range.

What happened to the other 4 kWh?

And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had 
miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.

Peri
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[EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my 2011 
Leaf ?


Temp about 45F
Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is 
9 capacity bars)

Average 3.2 miles / kWh
Duration about 1 hr.
Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.

For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
Total: 5.75 kWh.

According to
https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.

Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the 
battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).


45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.

Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total 
range.


What happened to the other 4 kWh?

And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had 
miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.


Peri
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