Re: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[Jay Summet via EV]

final Status report:

Thanks to Paul Dove who had a spare 1231C controller he sold me, I'm now 
back on the road!


I'll be accelerating at a much gentler pace and watching my motor amp 
gauge more, which will be good for my controller (and efficiency), but 
not as much fun as taking full advantage of the Nissan Leaf battery 
modules



I also have a blown 1231C on my workbench that I do plan on opening up 
and trying to repair at some point. Since I have a working controller 
right now, I'll probably try and upgrade the MOSFETS to increase the 
power capacity so that I can unleash my lead foot without knocking out 
the controller ;>  I'll let the list know what I'm up to when I start 
that project, but it will probably be a while as I have other priorities 
right now.


Jay


On 01/01/2017 01:56 PM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:

For those of you following the drama:

A few days ago my main HV fuse blew.

I used a lightbulb to test the Curtis 1231C controller and it was able
to control the bulb when I pressed on the throttle, so I thought it
might be a problem with my motor or wires. After I checked out the motor
and wires and everything appeared OK, I put a new fuse in and gave the
truck a test drive after I was able to spin the motor in neutral just fine.

Everything was fine at low speeds and current (100A or less) but as soon
as I tried to accelerate to 25-35 mph speeds I noticed that my motor was
only getting 300 amps max. In the past I've had it peg my 500 amp meter
under heavy acceleration.

 (This is the point I probably should have let up on the throttle ;>)

After holding the throttle down for about 5 seconds longer than I should
have, the controller failed completely and I was no longer able to get
any current to the motor. (But I had built up enough speed to coast back
home)

My guess:
When my HV fuse blew the first time, it was because one or more of the
IBGT's in the controller had fried (shorted I assume, blowing the fuse).

At some point later, they became "un-shorted" and the remaining
controllers were able to drive the lightbulb and even my motor at low
current draws, but when I tried to use the vehicle at street speeds they
became overwhelmed and then also blew. (At least they did not take out
my replacement fuse this time)

I assume it may be possible to repair the controller by replacing just
the IGBT's if nothing else was fried?

Any pointers on repair procedures?

(I'm also in the market for a replacement controller, see my other
email...I'm thinking of attempting the repair mostly to have a spare and
for the experience...)

Thanks,
Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 2 Jan 2017 at 11:43, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> The problem is that an EV controller leads a very hard life. Shock,
> vibration, heat, cold, water, dirt, very high current surges, voltage spikes,
> and time will eventually do it in.

Curtis primarily makes golf car controllers, which don't have as tough a 
life as those for road EVs.

That said, they seem a lot better protected than their distant ancestors, 
the old PMC DCC range of "shoebox" controllers from the late 1970s and early 
1980s.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[Lee Hart via EV]

brucedp5 via EV wrote:

my S-10 Blazer conversion... arrived as a 120VDC T125 system using a
Curtis 1221x controller to power the 9" ADC dual-shaft e-motor... the
first curtis died...

openings in that potting material...  outside air would breath in moisture...
would cause corrosion, which would lead to eventual internal component failure.

So, anyone doing a curtis repair, ensure the controller is back in a
sealed, air tight environment again (make sure the unit has no way
for moisture to get in).


Right! The hard potting does not stick well to the aluminum case. Often, 
the end with no terminals will simply fall out. The end with the 
terminals can't fall out (the terminals still hold it in position), but 
there will be a crack all the way around between it and the case.


After repair, I reseal them with silicone rubber. It is soft, adheres 
well to the case, and is easy to cut (the NEXT time it fails).


Heat: The life of any electronic device is roughly *halved* by every 10 
deg.C rise in temperature. That's why it's important to do whatever you 
can to cool it. If you can't comfortably leave your hand on it after a 
drive, it's too hot! Find some way to cool it better.


Don't get me wrong: The Curtis is not a bad design. In fact, it's better 
than most. The problem is that an EV controller leads a very hard life. 
Shock, vibration, heat, cold, water, dirt, very high current surges, 
voltage spikes, and time will eventually do it in.



Also, another item causing failures was having proper cooling.
Typically, the controller was mounted on a heat sink for low power
use. But in the higher (144V) use, the best cooling even on hot
days, was to have the controller mounted on a large heat sink, with
12V fans mounted on the top and bottom (like a sandwich) to ensure
the controller had enough cooling.



--
Teaching children to program goes against the grain of modern education.
Just imagine the chaos if they learned to think logically, plan, create,
implement, test, and execute!
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[brucedp5 via EV]

On the topic of repairing a Curtis 1221x controller ...

When I received my S-10 Blazer conversion EV from the converter (no, I did
not make my own. I had no garage, she got the house. But I did have an
income, but no time, I was always working), it arrived as a 120VDC T125
system using a Curtis 1221x controller to power the 9" ADC dual-shaft
e-motor.

After the first curtis had died, I paid to have that converter replace it.
Later, (way back when Otmar resided in Palo Alto, CA), Otmar gave some
pointers when we looked under my hood. He noticed the way the converter had
secured the power cabled to and from the controller needed more support.

The reason was the cheap potting material the curtis controller used. Any
vibrations of those cables would eventually cause openings to occur in that
potting material. Otmar explained, that it was when outside air could breath
through the controller (instead of it being sealed, air tight) that was one
of the major causes of premature failure. As the controller would heat up
with use, and then cool when not in use, outside air would breath in
moisture. That moisture with the heating cooling of the components would
cause corrosion, which would lead to eventual internal component failure.

*So, anyone doing a curtis repair, ensure the controller is back in a
sealed, air tight environment again (make sure the unit has no way for
moisture to get in). 

Also, another item causing failures was having proper cooling. Typically,
the controller was mounted on a heat sink for low power use. But in the
higher (144V) use, the best cooling even on hot days, was to have the
controller mounted on a large heat sink, with 12V fans mounted on the top
and bottom (like a sandwich) to ensure the controller had enough cooling.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Hoegberg via EV wrote:

I have an 1221 that I want to use for a new car, but this one has not been
used and have been outdoors for 20 years.. in bad climate, so it probably need 
some internal drying..


After that length of time, I would assume the electrolytic capacitors 
are bad. I'd replace them.


Once you're inside the case, check the screw heads for rust. If they're 
rusty, then for sure water has been inside the case as well. That can be 
very bad; corrosion can open traces, and cause shorts between pads.



if I remember correct it is 72-120V 400 Motoramps. (dont have the 1khz at low 
pwm/speeds)
Anyone on this list that have a service manual?
or just the circuit schematics with component values and so for me?


That sounds right. I have manuals and schematics. The final 4 digits 
after the model number identify the voltage, current, and other options.


1221B-48xx  24-36v, 600a
1221B-57xx  36-48v, 550a
1221B-66xx  48-72v, 500a
1221B-74xx  72-120v, 400a

The model 1221B does not have the fix to lower the switching frequency 
when starting a big low-resistance motor (like the ADC 9"). The 1221C 
*does* have this fix.


Without this fix, the current limit does not work for a low-resistance 
motor from a dead stop. You get a strong starting "jerk", and the high 
current can damage and eventually break the controller. But if you're 
using a smaller, higher-resistance motor and starting it is smooth and 
jerk-free, the B model is fine.


I'll email you a schematic directly. I don't have an electronic copy of 
the manual; just the printed version.


--
Teaching children to program goes against the grain of modern education.
Just imagine the chaos if they learned to think logically, plan, create,
implement, test, and execute!
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[Hoegberg via EV]

> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 13:56:04 -0500
> Subject: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> For those of you following the drama:
>
> A few days ago my main HV fuse blew.
>
> I used a lightbulb to test the Curtis 1231C controller and it was able


I have an 1221 that I want to use for a new car, but this one has not been 
used and have been outdoors for 20 years.. in bad climate, so it probably need 
some internal drying..
 
It might still work, but capacitors and stuff might gone bad over time (?)
, I assume it is the model before 1231c ,

if I remember correct it is 72-120V 400 Motoramps. (dont have the 1khz at low 
pwm/speeds)
Anyone on this list that have a service manual?
 or just the circuit schematics with component values and so for me?

I would be very happy to be able to repair it, IF it blows up..   

If you have, please send me "off list", ..or link, if it is not already in the 
public domain

// John
  
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Re: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[Thos True via EV]

Jay,

I too would steer clear from the Kelly controller. We tested a couple of
these when they first started selling in the states (they were looking for
distributors). We found that the specs were overstated (possibly peak level
at best). Smoked both units well before expectations.
I would go with either a Zilla or the Cafe unit that Roland cited.
(My 2 watts worth)

-Tom

On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 6:29 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Jay Summet via EV wrote:
>
>> I have sent a message to the seller of the used Kelly controller on
>> EVTrading post as that appears to be the best option available right
>> now...
>>
>> The Zilla 1K would be my choice for a new build, as I've heard nothing
>> but good things about the Zillas...
>>
>> A drop in replacement 1231C would be ideal for getting back on the road
>> quickly, but if I'm paying new prices I may decide to go with something
>> else (as the 1232C blew up ;>)
>>
>> I'd seen the ZEVA controller listed online, and the 600 A one is nicely
>> priced, so it's good to hear from Matt that it works well for him.
>>
>
> Random comments:
>
> Kelly controllers seem to be of lower quality than the others.
>
> Don't try to use regen on the ADC FB4001 motor. Arc! Zap! Bang!
>
> The Zilla controllers are great. I've had two.
>
> It ain't easy to fix the Curtis 1231C, but it is possible (I've done it).
> A lot depends on just how much damage was done when it failed. It might be
> worse opening it up to take a look. If not too badly damaged, get it fixed.
>
> I don't have any experience with the ZEVA controllers, good or bad.
>
> --
> Teaching children to program goes against the grain of modern education.
> Just imagine the chaos if they learned to think logically, plan, create,
> implement, test, and execute!
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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>
>


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merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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Re: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Jay Summet via EV wrote:

I have sent a message to the seller of the used Kelly controller on
EVTrading post as that appears to be the best option available right
now...

The Zilla 1K would be my choice for a new build, as I've heard nothing
but good things about the Zillas...

A drop in replacement 1231C would be ideal for getting back on the road
quickly, but if I'm paying new prices I may decide to go with something
else (as the 1232C blew up ;>)

I'd seen the ZEVA controller listed online, and the 600 A one is nicely
priced, so it's good to hear from Matt that it works well for him.


Random comments:

Kelly controllers seem to be of lower quality than the others.

Don't try to use regen on the ADC FB4001 motor. Arc! Zap! Bang!

The Zilla controllers are great. I've had two.

It ain't easy to fix the Curtis 1231C, but it is possible (I've done 
it). A lot depends on just how much damage was done when it failed. It 
might be worse opening it up to take a look. If not too badly damaged, 
get it fixed.


I don't have any experience with the ZEVA controllers, good or bad.

--
Teaching children to program goes against the grain of modern education.
Just imagine the chaos if they learned to think logically, plan, create,
implement, test, and execute!
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[via EV]

They use MOSFET's in the 1231, if you want to experitment I can give you some 
free of charge, I get lot's of samples for free and would like to see them used 
for an EV project. 

On Sunday, January 1, 2017 8:56 PM, paul dove via EV  
wrote:
 

 It's called an IGBT 
Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor 

However a Curtis 1231C has MOSFETS bony IGBTs as far as I know. 

Repairing them is not for the novice. They are packed in there tight.

I have one I'm not using I would sell.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 1, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
> 
> For those of you following the drama:
> 
> A few days ago my main HV fuse blew.
> 
> I used a lightbulb to test the Curtis 1231C controller and it was able to 
> control the bulb when I pressed on the throttle, so I thought it might be a 
> problem with my motor or wires. After I checked out the motor and wires and 
> everything appeared OK, I put a new fuse in and gave the truck a test drive 
> after I was able to spin the motor in neutral just fine.
> 
> Everything was fine at low speeds and current (100A or less) but as soon as I 
> tried to accelerate to 25-35 mph speeds I noticed that my motor was only 
> getting 300 amps max. In the past I've had it peg my 500 amp meter under 
> heavy acceleration.
> 
> (This is the point I probably should have let up on the throttle ;>)
> 
> After holding the throttle down for about 5 seconds longer than I should 
> have, the controller failed completely and I was no longer able to get any 
> current to the motor. (But I had built up enough speed to coast back home)
> 
> My guess:
> When my HV fuse blew the first time, it was because one or more of the IBGT's 
> in the controller had fried (shorted I assume, blowing the fuse).
> 
> At some point later, they became "un-shorted" and the remaining controllers 
> were able to drive the lightbulb and even my motor at low current draws, but 
> when I tried to use the vehicle at street speeds they became overwhelmed and 
> then also blew. (At least they did not take out my replacement fuse this 
> time)
> 
> I assume it may be possible to repair the controller by replacing just the 
> IGBT's if nothing else was fried?
> 
> Any pointers on repair procedures?
> 
> (I'm also in the market for a replacement controller, see my other 
> email...I'm thinking of attempting the repair mostly to have a spare and for 
> the experience...)
> 
> Thanks,
> Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[Jay Summet via EV]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I have sent a message to the seller of the used Kelly controller on 
EVTrading post as that appears to be the best option available right 
now. I like the fact that it is smaller than the current controller 
(will fit in the same place) and also offers regen as an option. And 
aside from changing the precharge/contractor setup the wiring is almost 
the same.



The Zilla 1K would be my choice for a new build, as I've heard nothing 
but good things about the Zillasbut, I don't want to have to rig up 
a water cooling solution, and the hairball would add a bit of wiring to 
my current system.



A drop in replacement 1231C would be ideal for getting back on the road 
quickly, but if I'm paying new prices I may decide to go with something 
else (as the 1232C blew up ;>)


I'd seen the ZEVA controller listed online, and the 600 A one is nicely 
priced, so it's good to hear from Matt that it works well for him.


Jay

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Re: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[Roland via EV]

Hello Jay,

I have been using a 1000 amp at 300 volt rating motor controller from Café 
Electric for over 15 years.  You can purchase them Directly from Café 
Electric.com who also makes them.  Can be interface with any BMS.


Back in year 2000, my EV weigh 7050 lbs with ninety 300 ah two volt cells.  
Drove two miles uphill every day to work at 55 to 65 mph drawing up to 800 amps 
holding the voltage drop to 12 volts from a no load battery voltage of 192 
volts.


Doing this drive for 10 years, I cook the motor enamel to a dark brown.  No 
problem with the controller and had the 11 inch GE motor which is the same 
frame as a Net Gain Warp 11 motor re-enamel,  Still using this controller today 
on 226 volt 200 ah Li-Poly battery packs with the same EV that now weighs 5500 
lbs.


My motor amps is now about 200 amps and the battery amps normally between 50 
and 100 amps.


This controller also have a motor ampere output  call AMPS ON TACK.  Just use a 
tachometer to read the motor ampere which I think is important.   The motor 
ampere is always higher then the battery amp.


Roland



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Jay Summet via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2017 11:56 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

For those of you following the drama:

A few days ago my main HV fuse blew.

I used a lightbulb to test the Curtis 1231C controller and it was able
to control the bulb when I pressed on the throttle, so I thought it
might be a problem with my motor or wires. After I checked out the motor
and wires and everything appeared OK, I put a new fuse in and gave the
truck a test drive after I was able to spin the motor in neutral just fine.

Everything was fine at low speeds and current (100A or less) but as soon
as I tried to accelerate to 25-35 mph speeds I noticed that my motor was
only getting 300 amps max. In the past I've had it peg my 500 amp meter
under heavy acceleration.

  (This is the point I probably should have let up on the throttle ;>)

After holding the throttle down for about 5 seconds longer than I should
have, the controller failed completely and I was no longer able to get
any current to the motor. (But I had built up enough speed to coast back
home)

My guess:
When my HV fuse blew the first time, it was because one or more of the
IBGT's in the controller had fried (shorted I assume, blowing the fuse).

At some point later, they became "un-shorted" and the remaining
controllers were able to drive the lightbulb and even my motor at low
current draws, but when I tried to use the vehicle at street speeds they
became overwhelmed and then also blew. (At least they did not take out
my replacement fuse this time)

I assume it may be possible to repair the controller by replacing just
the IGBT's if nothing else was fried?

Any pointers on repair procedures?

(I'm also in the market for a replacement controller, see my other
email...I'm thinking of attempting the repair mostly to have a spare and
for the experience...)

Thanks,
Jay
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[EVDL] Blew my Curtis 1231C Controller - repair procedures?

[Jay Summet via EV]

For those of you following the drama:

A few days ago my main HV fuse blew.

I used a lightbulb to test the Curtis 1231C controller and it was able 
to control the bulb when I pressed on the throttle, so I thought it 
might be a problem with my motor or wires. After I checked out the motor 
and wires and everything appeared OK, I put a new fuse in and gave the 
truck a test drive after I was able to spin the motor in neutral just fine.


Everything was fine at low speeds and current (100A or less) but as soon 
as I tried to accelerate to 25-35 mph speeds I noticed that my motor was 
only getting 300 amps max. In the past I've had it peg my 500 amp meter 
under heavy acceleration.


 (This is the point I probably should have let up on the throttle ;>)

After holding the throttle down for about 5 seconds longer than I should 
have, the controller failed completely and I was no longer able to get 
any current to the motor. (But I had built up enough speed to coast back 
home)


My guess:
When my HV fuse blew the first time, it was because one or more of the 
IBGT's in the controller had fried (shorted I assume, blowing the fuse).


At some point later, they became "un-shorted" and the remaining 
controllers were able to drive the lightbulb and even my motor at low 
current draws, but when I tried to use the vehicle at street speeds they 
became overwhelmed and then also blew. (At least they did not take out 
my replacement fuse this time)


I assume it may be possible to repair the controller by replacing just 
the IGBT's if nothing else was fried?


Any pointers on repair procedures?

(I'm also in the market for a replacement controller, see my other 
email...I'm thinking of attempting the repair mostly to have a spare and 
for the experience...)


Thanks,
Jay
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