Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
From: Denis Boutet via EV ev@lists.evdl.org If the population REALLY wants them to stop they will stop. And if the population doesn't want to stop, nature will stop it for them. The problems of energy use are not technical but cultural. Americans want speed, acceleration and big cars. -- Pat Murphy Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
So, not content with 100 years of greed-fueled destruction of the earths atmosphere through the squandering of a very finite resource, just when progress is being made to progress Humanity down a more responsible road to a cleaner and more sustainable future for us and and the Earth in general, Big Oil comes along and says No! You don't want to do it like that! Lets do the same thing all over again and cause earthquakes, rising sea levels, destruction of ground water systems and an even more poisonous atmosphere. Sounds like the plot from '2012'. And... I think I just outed myself publicly as an official tree-hugger. MW On 28 May 2014, at 20:23, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: So - NC will experience increasing earthquake activity (other regions are living this already) and contamination of groundwater sources (people can no longer use the wells that they have been drinking from for decades), in addition to a rise of fuel prices - that Martin hinted at. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 7:51 AM To: Martin WINLOW; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT I live in North Carolina - they are getting ready to frack in very uncertain geology here. That is what will happen next. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:13 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote: A Financial Times article a couple of weeks back was saying that $1T of recent investment in shale oil and gas extraction will never se a profit - due to too low oil and gas prices. Guess what's going to happen next? MW On 27 May 2014, at 07:02, Jan Steinman via EV wrote: From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Can we really disregard the energy cost of all those other items making up the totla cost? No! It's a totally essential concept! I think the Hummer versus Prius example was probably contrived and skewed, but the concept of energy cost accounting is something we don't do enough of these days. For example, some energy cost analysis indicates that some shale oil costs as much as $120/barrel to produce, although the market rate is only $100/barrel. Some studies even suggest that some shale oil well use more energy than they will ever produce. For more info, look into emergy, a concept rigorously developed by Howard (HT) Odum. The more the work is left to nature, the greater the net yield but the longer the time required... Thus sometimes the most apparently productive and high-yielding sources of energy involve a lot of activity for little return, while long-term investments, especially in naturally grown forests, provide the greatest value for future generations. -- David Holmgren Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edisonhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140528/3dfa d913/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
From: Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org And... I think I just outed myself publicly as an official tree-hugger. MW Goddess bless you! Burn down your cities and leave our farms, and your cities will spring up again as if by magic; but destroy our farms and the grass will grow in the streets of every city in the country. -- William Jennings Bryan Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
If the population REALLY wants them to stop they will stop. Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 2014-05-30 à 11:59, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org a écrit : So, not content with 100 years of greed-fueled destruction of the earths atmosphere through the squandering of a very finite resource, just when progress is being made to progress Humanity down a more responsible road to a cleaner and more sustainable future for us and and the Earth in general, Big Oil comes along and says No! You don't want to do it like that! Lets do the same thing all over again and cause earthquakes, rising sea levels, destruction of ground water systems and an even more poisonous atmosphere. Sounds like the plot from '2012'. And... I think I just outed myself publicly as an official tree-hugger. MW On 28 May 2014, at 20:23, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: So - NC will experience increasing earthquake activity (other regions are living this already) and contamination of groundwater sources (people can no longer use the wells that they have been drinking from for decades), in addition to a rise of fuel prices - that Martin hinted at. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 7:51 AM To: Martin WINLOW; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT I live in North Carolina - they are getting ready to frack in very uncertain geology here. That is what will happen next. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:13 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote: A Financial Times article a couple of weeks back was saying that $1T of recent investment in shale oil and gas extraction will never se a profit - due to too low oil and gas prices. Guess what's going to happen next? MW On 27 May 2014, at 07:02, Jan Steinman via EV wrote: From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Can we really disregard the energy cost of all those other items making up the totla cost? No! It's a totally essential concept! I think the Hummer versus Prius example was probably contrived and skewed, but the concept of energy cost accounting is something we don't do enough of these days. For example, some energy cost analysis indicates that some shale oil costs as much as $120/barrel to produce, although the market rate is only $100/barrel. Some studies even suggest that some shale oil well use more energy than they will ever produce. For more info, look into emergy, a concept rigorously developed by Howard (HT) Odum. The more the work is left to nature, the greater the net yield but the longer the time required... Thus sometimes the most apparently productive and high-yielding sources of energy involve a lot of activity for little return, while long-term investments, especially in naturally grown forests, provide the greatest value for future generations. -- David Holmgren Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edisonhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140528/3dfa d913/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
This thread is now totally off topic. Time to call it done, methinks. Thanks. David Roden EVDL Administrator http://www.evdl.org/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
A Financial Times article a couple of weeks back was saying that $1T of recent investment in shale oil and gas extraction will never se a profit - due to too low oil and gas prices. Guess what's going to happen next? MW On 27 May 2014, at 07:02, Jan Steinman via EV wrote: From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Can we really disregard the energy cost of all those other items making up the totla cost? No! It's a totally essential concept! I think the Hummer versus Prius example was probably contrived and skewed, but the concept of energy cost accounting is something we don't do enough of these days. For example, some energy cost analysis indicates that some shale oil costs as much as $120/barrel to produce, although the market rate is only $100/barrel. Some studies even suggest that some shale oil well use more energy than they will ever produce. For more info, look into emergy, a concept rigorously developed by Howard (HT) Odum. The more the work is left to nature, the greater the net yield but the longer the time required... Thus sometimes the most apparently productive and high-yielding sources of energy involve a lot of activity for little return, while long-term investments, especially in naturally grown forests, provide the greatest value for future generations. -- David Holmgren Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
Do you have a URL for that article? I collect that sort of thing to show to disbelieving friends and relatives. For the doubters out there, I highly recommend the blog Our Finite Earth, which is done by a professional actuary, not some wild-eyed hair-shirt: http://ourfiniteworld.com/ Jan On 2014-05-28, at 00:13, Martin WINLOW wrote: A Financial Times article a couple of weeks back was saying that $1T of recent investment in shale oil and gas extraction will never se a profit - due to too low oil and gas prices. Guess what's going to happen next? MW On 27 May 2014, at 07:02, Jan Steinman via EV wrote: From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Can we really disregard the energy cost of all those other items making up the totla cost? No! It's a totally essential concept! I think the Hummer versus Prius example was probably contrived and skewed, but the concept of energy cost accounting is something we don't do enough of these days. For example, some energy cost analysis indicates that some shale oil costs as much as $120/barrel to produce, although the market rate is only $100/barrel. Some studies even suggest that some shale oil well use more energy than they will ever produce. For more info, look into emergy, a concept rigorously developed by Howard (HT) Odum. The more the work is left to nature, the greater the net yield but the longer the time required... Thus sometimes the most apparently productive and high-yielding sources of energy involve a lot of activity for little return, while long-term investments, especially in naturally grown forests, provide the greatest value for future generations. -- David Holmgren Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op We talk about the state's attempts to ban the sale of raw milk, and a proposed labeling regulation that would require raw milk producers to label each bottle, WARNING: This raw milk producit is unpasteurized and may contain disease-causing bacteria... Other food -- hamburgers, chicken, commercial dairy products -- can contain disease-causing bacteria. These products are not required to carry a label declaring them dangerous. It is ludicrous to require producers of high quality raw milk to label their products in a way that is more likely to put them out of business than to protect anyone. -- Ron Schmid Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op (Send email to qu...@bytesmiths.com to get a random quote, or quo...@bytesmiths.com to get 50 random quotes. Put a word in the Subject line to filter for that word.) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
I live in North Carolina - they are getting ready to frack in very uncertain geology here. That is what will happen next. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:13 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote: A Financial Times article a couple of weeks back was saying that $1T of recent investment in shale oil and gas extraction will never se a profit - due to too low oil and gas prices. Guess what's going to happen next? MW On 27 May 2014, at 07:02, Jan Steinman via EV wrote: From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Can we really disregard the energy cost of all those other items making up the totla cost? No! It's a totally essential concept! I think the Hummer versus Prius example was probably contrived and skewed, but the concept of energy cost accounting is something we don't do enough of these days. For example, some energy cost analysis indicates that some shale oil costs as much as $120/barrel to produce, although the market rate is only $100/barrel. Some studies even suggest that some shale oil well use more energy than they will ever produce. For more info, look into emergy, a concept rigorously developed by Howard (HT) Odum. The more the work is left to nature, the greater the net yield but the longer the time required... Thus sometimes the most apparently productive and high-yielding sources of energy involve a lot of activity for little return, while long-term investments, especially in naturally grown forests, provide the greatest value for future generations. -- David Holmgren Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edisonhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140528/3dfad913/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
So - NC will experience increasing earthquake activity (other regions are living this already) and contamination of groundwater sources (people can no longer use the wells that they have been drinking from for decades), in addition to a rise of fuel prices - that Martin hinted at. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 7:51 AM To: Martin WINLOW; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT I live in North Carolina - they are getting ready to frack in very uncertain geology here. That is what will happen next. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:13 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote: A Financial Times article a couple of weeks back was saying that $1T of recent investment in shale oil and gas extraction will never se a profit - due to too low oil and gas prices. Guess what's going to happen next? MW On 27 May 2014, at 07:02, Jan Steinman via EV wrote: From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Can we really disregard the energy cost of all those other items making up the totla cost? No! It's a totally essential concept! I think the Hummer versus Prius example was probably contrived and skewed, but the concept of energy cost accounting is something we don't do enough of these days. For example, some energy cost analysis indicates that some shale oil costs as much as $120/barrel to produce, although the market rate is only $100/barrel. Some studies even suggest that some shale oil well use more energy than they will ever produce. For more info, look into emergy, a concept rigorously developed by Howard (HT) Odum. The more the work is left to nature, the greater the net yield but the longer the time required... Thus sometimes the most apparently productive and high-yielding sources of energy involve a lot of activity for little return, while long-term investments, especially in naturally grown forests, provide the greatest value for future generations. -- David Holmgren Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edisonhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140528/3dfa d913/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
I don't know about earthquake activity, this is very stable land, but yes
my lovely 12GPM well could become useless even though I am 60 to 100 miles
from the activity. Many more people are closer to the danger. I would
have to go with chlorinated tap water, at $5k to get a hook up.
We currently have a very business pliant legislature, they are accepting
allowing the exact formulations and nature of the chemicals used to be kept
secret - even suggesting that revealing them would be a felony. Yes, if a
journalist were to discover and reveal them they would be jailed as a
felon. How crazy is that?
The geology where they are headed is not like the areas where fracking has
been performed with no known effect on the aquifers, the structure there
is very jumbled up with hardened dikes, of unknown topology and unknown
fissures that could very well reroute the stuff unpredictably.
The sorriest thing is there is barely enough gas to make it worth while -
debatable if it is worth doing. Even so, there will be a lot of salaries
paid regardless of the amounts of gas. Much of the rural areas where they
want to do this are pretty low income - which usually means they get
screwed as they have little clout. The monetary return for the people
living above the area is not going to be much, and the risks possibly very
high.
It is ugly what is going on here.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote:
So - NC will experience increasing earthquake activity (other regions
are living this already) and contamination of groundwater sources
(people can no longer use the wells that they have been drinking from
for decades),
in addition to a rise of fuel prices - that Martin hinted at.
Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross
via EV
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 7:51 AM
To: Martin WINLOW; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
I live in North Carolina - they are getting ready to frack in very
uncertain geology here. That is what will happen next.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:13 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV
ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote:
A Financial Times article a couple of weeks back was saying that $1T
of
recent investment in shale oil and gas extraction will never se a
profit -
due to too low oil and gas prices. Guess what's going to happen next?
MW
On 27 May 2014, at 07:02, Jan Steinman via EV wrote:
From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
Can we really disregard the energy cost of all those other items
making
up the totla cost?
No! It's a totally essential concept!
I think the Hummer versus Prius example was probably contrived and
skewed, but the concept of energy cost accounting is something we
don't do
enough of these days.
For example, some energy cost analysis indicates that some shale oil
costs as much as $120/barrel to produce, although the market rate is
only
$100/barrel. Some studies even suggest that some shale oil well use
more
energy than they will ever produce.
For more info, look into emergy, a concept rigorously developed by
Howard (HT) Odum.
The more the work is left to nature, the greater the net yield
but
the longer the time required... Thus sometimes the most apparently
productive and high-yielding sources of energy involve a lot of
activity
for little return, while long-term investments, especially in
naturally
grown forests, provide the greatest value for future generations. --
David
Holmgren
Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *
Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A.
Edisonhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html
A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*
Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google
Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk
michael.e.r...@gmail.com
michael.e.r...@gmail.com
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140528/3dfa
d913/attachment.htm
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
The northern part of The Netherlands is also an extremely stable geology, but also very rich in natural gas, especially the province of Groningen. These days it is not uncommon to see all older houses there damaged from shifting ground, some houses were condemned and many have broken walls from regular small earthquakes and moving soil, so the walls tear from bottom to top (these are brick walls). After pressure from the public, the disclosure was made that there is no guarantee that the strength of earthquakes (which were unheard of in this area) can stay below 2.5 as they promised before - now they do not know how strong the eartquakes will get... Can we say a man-made disaster? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info http://www.cvandewater.infom Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:42 PM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT I don't know about earthquake activity, this is very stable land, but yes my lovely 12GPM well could become useless even though I am 60 to 100 miles from the activity. Many more people are closer to the danger. I would have to go with chlorinated tap water, at $5k to get a hook up. We currently have a very business pliant legislature, they are accepting allowing the exact formulations and nature of the chemicals used to be kept secret - even suggesting that revealing them would be a felony. Yes, if a journalist were to discover and reveal them they would be jailed as a felon. How crazy is that? The geology where they are headed is not like the areas where fracking has been performed with no known effect on the aquifers, the structure there is very jumbled up with hardened dikes, of unknown topology and unknown fissures that could very well reroute the stuff unpredictably. The sorriest thing is there is barely enough gas to make it worth while - debatable if it is worth doing. Even so, there will be a lot of salaries paid regardless of the amounts of gas. Much of the rural areas where they want to do this are pretty low income - which usually means they get screwed as they have little clout. The monetary return for the people living above the area is not going to be much, and the risks possibly very high. It is ugly what is going on here. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So - NC will experience increasing earthquake activity (other regions are living this already) and contamination of groundwater sources (people can no longer use the wells that they have been drinking from for decades), in addition to a rise of fuel prices - that Martin hinted at. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 tel:%2B1%20408%20383%207626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 7:51 AM To: Martin WINLOW; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT I live in North Carolina - they are getting ready to frack in very uncertain geology here. That is what will happen next. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:13 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote: A Financial Times article a couple of weeks back was saying that $1T of recent investment in shale oil and gas extraction will never se a profit - due to too low oil and gas prices. Guess what's going to happen next? MW On 27 May 2014, at 07:02, Jan Steinman via EV wrote: From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Can we really disregard the energy cost of all those other items making up the totla cost? No! It's a totally essential concept! I think the Hummer versus Prius example was probably contrived and skewed, but the concept of energy cost accounting is something we don't do enough of these days. For example, some energy cost analysis indicates that some shale oil costs as much as $120/barrel to produce, although the market rate is only $100/barrel. Some studies even suggest that some shale oil well use more energy than they will ever produce. For more info, look into emergy, a concept rigorously developed by Howard (HT) Odum. The more the work is left to nature, the greater the net yield but the longer the time required... Thus sometimes the most apparently productive and high-yielding sources of energy involve a lot of activity for little return, while long-term investments, especially in naturally grown forests, provide the greatest value for future generations. -- David Holmgren
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
On this topic, about 75 years ago the oil and gas wells in Pennsylvania began showing depletion symptoms. These were the firs oil wells and gas wells in the world. When they stopped producing the casings were puled out for scrap steel. and they were supposed to be sealed with concrete. Many were not and salt water lies below oil in the region fresh water above. The salt water contaminated the farm and home wells. the drilling of another well is not a solution in this situation. These farms and homes had to make do with water from creeks and rivers. A very poor substitute. winter stops the flo in almost all creeks and ice and snow cover all winter, the spring thaws bring flooding and mud and contaminates soil the creeks and rivers. I have been told the long term residents consider oil and gas wells a curse on their lives... *Dennis Lee Miles * *Director **E.V.T.I. Inc.* *E-Mail:* *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913* Dade City, Florida 33523 USA On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote: The northern part of The Netherlands is also an extremely stable geology, but also very rich in natural gas, especially the province of Groningen. These days it is not uncommon to see all older houses there damaged from shifting ground, some houses were condemned and many have broken walls from regular small earthquakes and moving soil, so the walls tear from bottom to top (these are brick walls). After pressure from the public, the disclosure was made that there is no guarantee that the strength of earthquakes (which were unheard of in this area) can stay below 2.5 as they promised before - now they do not know how strong the eartquakes will get... Can we say a man-made disaster? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info http://www.cvandewater.infom Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:42 PM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT I don't know about earthquake activity, this is very stable land, but yes my lovely 12GPM well could become useless even though I am 60 to 100 miles from the activity. Many more people are closer to the danger. I would have to go with chlorinated tap water, at $5k to get a hook up. We currently have a very business pliant legislature, they are accepting allowing the exact formulations and nature of the chemicals used to be kept secret - even suggesting that revealing them would be a felony. Yes, if a journalist were to discover and reveal them they would be jailed as a felon. How crazy is that? The geology where they are headed is not like the areas where fracking has been performed with no known effect on the aquifers, the structure there is very jumbled up with hardened dikes, of unknown topology and unknown fissures that could very well reroute the stuff unpredictably. The sorriest thing is there is barely enough gas to make it worth while - debatable if it is worth doing. Even so, there will be a lot of salaries paid regardless of the amounts of gas. Much of the rural areas where they want to do this are pretty low income - which usually means they get screwed as they have little clout. The monetary return for the people living above the area is not going to be much, and the risks possibly very high. It is ugly what is going on here. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So - NC will experience increasing earthquake activity (other regions are living this already) and contamination of groundwater sources (people can no longer use the wells that they have been drinking from for decades), in addition to a rise of fuel prices - that Martin hinted at. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 tel:%2B1%20408%20383%207626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 7:51 AM To: Martin WINLOW; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT I live in North Carolina - they are getting ready to frack in very uncertain geology here. That is what will happen next. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:13 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote: A Financial Times article a couple of weeks back was saying that $1T of recent investment in shale oil and gas extraction will never se a profit - due to too low oil and gas prices. Guess what's going
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote: We currently have a very business pliant legislature, they are accepting allowing the exact formulations and nature of the chemicals used to be kept secret - even suggesting that revealing them would be a felony. Yes, if a journalist were to discover and reveal them they would be jailed as a felon. How crazy is that? I have a friend who works at OSHA. I asked her how this is possible, knowing that every chemical in commercial use requires an MSDS that lists all the hazardous ingredients. She confirmed my belief - these laws hiding the formulations of fracking chemicals are a direct violation of federal law. And yes, federal law applies, just as it does regarding MSDSs for any chemicals. I have no idea why this is still going on, why someone hasn't challenged these state laws in federal court. I would hope some suits are coming soon. Chris -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140528/6c707de2/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 19, Issue 39 - OTT
Folks, this thread is getting pretty far off topic. Let's get back to EVs, please. David Roden EVDL Administrator http://www.evdl.org/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
