Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 26 Sep 2020 at 13:59, paul dove via EV wrote:

>  how many vehicles have a 12Kw charger on board?
> Not many I suspect.

Quite a few, actually, both in terms of models and in road population. 

Well, not 12kW (I have no idea where you got that number), but 11kW.

I think that the large road population is largely down to the Renault Zoe 
having 3-phase charging.  Zoes have sold very well across the EU since their 
2012 introduction. They charge at 22kW or 43kW, depending on model.

See below (after the lists) for some comments on this.

Here's a list of EVs offered in the EU with 3ph charging. US versions of 
them (if any) may not offer 3ph.  I may also have missed some that have a 
3ph charging option.

Renault Zoe, 22kW (43kW for Q90 models through 2019)
Smart EQ fortwo & forfour, 22kW
BMW I3, 11kW or 22kW
Tesla S & X, 16.5kW
Tesla 3, 11kW
Peugeot E-208 & E-2008, 11kW (optional)
Hyundai Kona, 11kW
Jaguar I-Pace, 11kW
Porsche Taycan, 11kW
Audi e-tron, 11kW
Mini Electric, 11kW
Vauxhall Corsa-e, 11kW
Polestar 2, 11kW

The following 3ph AC EVs aren't on sale yet, but are scheduled to be at 
dealers this year or next:

Nissan Ariya, 22kW 
BMW iX3, 11kW 
Volvo XC40, 11kW 
VW ID3 & ID4, 11kW 
Skoda Enyaq, 11kW 
Fiat 500e, 11kW
Vauxhall Mokka-e, 11kW 
Ford Mustang Mach-E, 11kW 

=

The Renault Zoe is an interesting study in the old chicken-and-egg 
principle, and its application by a relatively forward-looking automaker, 
one who actually wanted their EV to succeed.

1. When they were designing the car, Renault expected that most owners would 
charge their Zoes primarily at home.

2.  A surprising number of French homes have 3-phase power.

3. Therefore Renault gave Zoe 3-phase charging.

4. Zoe proved to be a good seller, so lots of 11kW and 22kW public charging 
points sprang up.*

5. With 11kW and 22kW AC charging widely available, more 3-phase 11kW+ EVs 
have been and are being introduced.

*I know someone in a small French town who drives a Zoe.  She hardly ever 
has to charge at home, because the supermarket and the tourist information 
center across from the laundromat offer free 22kW charging. :-)

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[paul dove via EV]

I did not see mention of 11Kw charging sorry my mistake. But even if you could 
get that from the pole. how many vehicles have a 12Kw charger on board? Not 
many I suspect. Unless we are talking DC which I didn’t see mentioned either.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, September 25, 2020, 12:36 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:

On 25 Sep 2020 at 11:20, paul dove via EV wrote:

> I donTMt agree with your math! 120v 8 amps is 960w/h or 5 miles and hour.

Cor was talking about Amsterdam, where 120v is not used.  He mentioned 11kW 
and 22kW charging.  That's 3-phase charging which is available or standard 
on several EU EVs.  Charging a 100kWh battery to 80% at 90% efficiency on 
11kW would take 8 hours.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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    The rain it raineth on the just
    And also on the unjust fella.
    But mostly on the just because
    The unjust steals the just's umbrella.

                                  -- Charles Bowen
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover - Simple EVSE

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

These days you can get a dual voltage L2 EVSE for about $199 from Amazon
that simply plugs into either a 120v outlet for L1, or the same unit can
plug into a 240 V outlet and provide L2.  And the EVSE box is in the line
cord.  Requires nothing more than a nail to hold it up.

https://www.amazon.com/Zencar-100-240V-Portable-Electric-Compatible/dp/B075GJK2S9/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?dchild=1=L2+EVSE=1601056761=8-2-spons=1=ASIYMWBVZG7J0=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE3V0haVzNYSlQ2Q1EmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA3MTc2NTUzS0VOQkI0NTczRlhJJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAyOTAxOTlMSVAxVUZCWUZWWEwmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

<https://www.amazon.com/Zencar-100-240V-Portable-Electric-Compatible/dp/B075GJK2S9/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?dchild=1=L2+EVSE=1601056761=8-2-spons=1=ASIYMWBVZG7J0=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE3V0haVzNYSlQ2Q1EmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA3MTc2NTUzS0VOQkI0NTczRlhJJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAyOTAxOTlMSVAxVUZCWUZWWEwmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl>Its16
amps at 240 and that charges about 200 miles range overnight (10 hrs).  But
the average American drives only about 40 miles a day.

Another way to look at it.  Plugged in 10 hours overnight every night for a
week is 1400 miles a week of charge.  Most people will never need that.

The only time you would need a public charge is when you drive more than
400 miles a weekend and still coming home each night.  Rare.

Bob

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 11:36 AM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> I don’t agree with your math! 120v 8 amps is 960w/h or 5 miles and hour.
> 240v 16 amps would be 3.8kw/h or 20 miles an hour. 240v at 32amps would be
> 7.6kw/h or 40 miles an hour. So the latter is the only situation where you
> would get close to charging a 100kwh battery over night.
>
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, September 21, 2020, 11:13 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> That's pretty decent. Even a 100kW battery would charge overnight, more
> or less. Do you know how the handle the financial aspect ?
>
> Further, how compact can be an L2 ESVE ? Compact enough to put on a
> utility pole ?
>
> Peri
>
> << Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ?
> https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
> Sent: 20-Sep-20 6:01:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover
>
> >On 19 Sep 2020 at 0:52, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> >
> >>  An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >
> >Here's the attachment.  FYI, this won't happen if you send plain text or
> >multipart/alternative with plain text one of the alternatives.
> >
> >=
> >
> >Not only in Amsterdam.
> >
> >*All through the country* there are public charging stations in every part
> >of town. Every few streets, even in suburbs, have a small metal pole with
> 2
> >sockets where you can charge at 11kW (16 Amps, 230V/400V 3-phase) or even
> >22kW (32 Amps).
> >
> >Not just near the strip malls or city centers, I mean in the residential
> >streets, every few blocks has a charging pole. Because there are few
> garages
> >and driveways, most people have streetside parking only, so the many EV
> >owners (some tax rates are reduced to zero for EVs) will park at the
> >charging nearest their home and leave the car charging during the evening
> or
> >night. It is what is needed and it is available, already several years
> now.
> >
> >Cor.
> >
> >David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> >To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> >offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >  In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks
> >  you take.
> >
> >-- Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 25 Sep 2020 at 11:20, paul dove via EV wrote:

> I donTMt agree with your math! 120v 8 amps is 960w/h or 5 miles and hour.

Cor was talking about Amsterdam, where 120v is not used.  He mentioned 11kW 
and 22kW charging.  That's 3-phase charging which is available or standard 
on several EU EVs.  Charging a 100kWh battery to 80% at 90% efficiency on 
11kW would take 8 hours.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 The rain it raineth on the just
 And also on the unjust fella.
 But mostly on the just because
 The unjust steals the just's umbrella.

   -- Charles Bowen
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[paul dove via EV]

I don’t agree with your math! 120v 8 amps is 960w/h or 5 miles and hour. 240v 
16 amps would be 3.8kw/h or 20 miles an hour. 240v at 32amps would be 7.6kw/h 
or 40 miles an hour. So the latter is the only situation where you would get 
close to charging a 100kwh battery over night. 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 21, 2020, 11:13 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

That's pretty decent. Even a 100kW battery would charge overnight, more 
or less. Do you know how the handle the financial aspect ?

Further, how compact can be an L2 ESVE ? Compact enough to put on a 
utility pole ?

Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 20-Sep-20 6:01:23 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

>On 19 Sep 2020 at 0:52, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>
>>  An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>
>Here's the attachment.  FYI, this won't happen if you send plain text or
>multipart/alternative with plain text one of the alternatives.
>
>=
>
>Not only in Amsterdam.
>
>*All through the country* there are public charging stations in every part
>of town. Every few streets, even in suburbs, have a small metal pole with 2
>sockets where you can charge at 11kW (16 Amps, 230V/400V 3-phase) or even
>22kW (32 Amps).
>
>Not just near the strip malls or city centers, I mean in the residential
>streets, every few blocks has a charging pole. Because there are few garages
>and driveways, most people have streetside parking only, so the many EV
>owners (some tax rates are reduced to zero for EVs) will park at the
>charging nearest their home and leave the car charging during the evening or
>night. It is what is needed and it is available, already several years now.
>
>Cor.
>
>David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
>To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>      In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks
>      you take.
>
>                                -- Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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>

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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 21 Sep 2020 at 4:03, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> Further, how compact can be an L2 ESVE ? Compact enough to put on a 
> utility pole ?

I'm not an expert, and what little I know mostly applies to the EU.  While I 
know of EU EVSEs (wallboxes) that are probably small enough to be mounted on 
utility poles, AFAIK their installation instructions call for mounting only 
on the wall or on a manufacturer-supplied pedestal.  

I'm not aware of any 3-phase L2 EVSEs that are specifically designed to be 
mounted on utility poles. 

That said, there are some plain receptacles that might work.  Again the 
following are for the EU.

Green'Up single-phase sockets are pretty common and I would think that they 
could be installed on poles.  However, AFAIK these are all single phase, 
rated for 14 amps / 3.2kW.  They work fine with the "granny cables" 
(portable EVSEs) that come standard with most or many EU EVs.  

https://www.carplug.com/en/legrand-green-up-socket-14a-220v-090471-32-kw-
surface-mounting

https://v.gd/VG2JuR

Here is a 32 amp single-phase receptacle.  However, it isn't rated for 
installation where it's exposed to weather.  Maybe it could be pole-mounted 
inside some kind of protective cabinet.  I will have to leave that question 
to someone who knows EU norms.  Or possibly there are weatherproof versions 
of these receptacles.

https://www.carplug.com/en/mennekes-cee-wall-socket-32a-230v-single-phase-3p-
420

https://v.gd/OeV0Ha

Here is a 32 amp 3-phase version of the above:

https://www.carplug.com/en/bal-cee-wall-socket-32a-380v-three-phase-5p-
bal103

https://v.gd/T0fu08

And here's a portable EVSE that will work with either of those  receptacles 
if you get the appropriate adapter cable.  It will supply up to 22kW on 3ph:

https://www.carplug.com/en/nrgkick-mobile-charging-station-32a-bluetooth-
type2-23-to-22kw-5m-ref-20219-v2

https://v.gd/ulvJ8n

Adapters:

https://www.carplug.com/en/15-accessories/s-3/manufacturer_2-nrgkick

The problem is that not all EU EVs can do 3-phase AC charging.  

The most common one that can is the Renault Zoe, which I'm pretty sure has 
had 3-phase onboard charging since its 2012 introduction.   FWIW, 3-phase 
residential power is more common in France than in some other countries.

The Zoe can charge at up to 22kW on 3ph.  In fact Zoe Q90 models through 
2019 could do 43kW AC, though not all EVSEs supported it.  That capability 
has now been replaced with CCS DC charging.  

I think the BMW I3 can also handle 22kW 3ph.

Some other EVs can do 3-phase, but at only 11kW.  AFAIK, this applies to the 
Tesla Model 3 and Peugeot E-208.  

There might be a few other models, but I don't think many.  For faster 
public charging, CCS seems to be where things are headed.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 If all our bicycles turn into cars, that's a horrible figure.
 It would scare the world.

  -- Zhai Guangming, China National Petroleum Corporation
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Peri Hartman via EV]

That's pretty decent. Even a 100kW battery would charge overnight, more 
or less. Do you know how the handle the financial aspect ?


Further, how compact can be an L2 ESVE ? Compact enough to put on a 
utility pole ?


Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 20-Sep-20 6:01:23 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover


On 19 Sep 2020 at 0:52, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:


 An HTML attachment was scrubbed...


Here's the attachment.  FYI, this won't happen if you send plain text or
multipart/alternative with plain text one of the alternatives.

=

Not only in Amsterdam.

*All through the country* there are public charging stations in every part
of town. Every few streets, even in suburbs, have a small metal pole with 2
sockets where you can charge at 11kW (16 Amps, 230V/400V 3-phase) or even
22kW (32 Amps).

Not just near the strip malls or city centers, I mean in the residential
streets, every few blocks has a charging pole. Because there are few garages
and driveways, most people have streetside parking only, so the many EV
owners (some tax rates are reduced to zero for EVs) will park at the
charging nearest their home and leave the car charging during the evening or
night. It is what is needed and it is available, already several years now.

Cor.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks
 you take.

-- Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 19 Sep 2020 at 0:52, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...

Here's the attachment.  FYI, this won't happen if you send plain text or 
multipart/alternative with plain text one of the alternatives.

=

Not only in Amsterdam.

*All through the country* there are public charging stations in every part 
of town. Every few streets, even in suburbs, have a small metal pole with 2 
sockets where you can charge at 11kW (16 Amps, 230V/400V 3-phase) or even 
22kW (32 Amps).

Not just near the strip malls or city centers, I mean in the residential 
streets, every few blocks has a charging pole. Because there are few garages 
and driveways, most people have streetside parking only, so the many EV 
owners (some tax rates are reduced to zero for EVs) will park at the 
charging nearest their home and leave the car charging during the evening or 
night. It is what is needed and it is available, already several years now.

Cor.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks 
 you take.
 
-- Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Cor van de Water via EV]

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

I was in Amsterdam back in February, seemed like every street had charging 
stations on it.

> That's already happening. France seems to be pretty much all in for EVs.
> 
> I was there in early March (right before the big lockdown) and both stops I
> made on the A10 heading north to Paris had good-sized charging areas. I
> didn't take time to look too closely, but I saw kiosks in use at each.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I think I agree with all your points.

In terms of major companies successfully transforming to a new business, the 
best examples are where technology and the market has changed - and this is 
exactly the case here.

I’m sure there are many examples that I can’t think of off the top of my head, 
but IBM may be one example. They were once a hardware company, made several 
transitions, and became mainly a services company.

In Europe, there is one energy company, whose name escapes me, that divested 
all of its fossil energy assets, and transitioned to renewables.

Sometimes though, large companies whose business is in secular decline just get 
absorbed into another large company.

Or maybe the opposite. Total, a big oil company, bought the largest EV charging 
company in the UK.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Sep 18, 2020, at 10:44 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> I don’t disagree, but neither do I care. I don’t want a company
>> holding on to a business that doesn’t work for them. I’d rather they
>> sell it to someone interested in making it work.
> 
> The problem with that is that if the business is poor, they can't get 
> anything for it. And if the business is good, they can sell it for a lot; but 
> then they lose out on the profits. The new business can wind up running the 
> old company out of their old business.
> 
> There are many examples where an old established company failed to appreciate 
> the promise of a new technology, or new market opportunity. One example would 
> be the mechanical watch industry. They *invented* the digital watch; but 
> couldn't see how it could ever pay. So they sold it. Digital watches took 
> over the market, and drove most of the mechanical watch companies out of 
> business.
> 
>> Further, if they can seed and build a company with solidly
>> environmental products, I’m thrilled. It’s tough to do if you don’t
>> have the wherewithal.
> 
> Ironically, it's the big companies that have the wherewithal to try something 
> new. They can afford to invest in the R to perfect a new idea, and bring it 
> to market.
> 
> The small start-up may have a great idea; but they struggle to bring it to 
> market. Especially because the big company is likely to fight them tooth and 
> nail to keep any new idea out of the market.
> 
>> Even better, if they can transition their business to make the
>> positive products a larger and larger part of their business until
>> the fossil portion disappears ... hallelujah!
> 
> Yes; but man, is that ever rare! Can you think of any examples where a major 
> company has successfully transitioned from their old business to a new 
> business? Most of them would rather DIE than change.
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> -- 
> A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
> nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
>-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

I don’t disagree, but neither do I care. I don’t want a company
holding on to a business that doesn’t work for them. I’d rather they
sell it to someone interested in making it work.


The problem with that is that if the business is poor, they can't get 
anything for it. And if the business is good, they can sell it for a 
lot; but then they lose out on the profits. The new business can wind up 
running the old company out of their old business.


There are many examples where an old established company failed to 
appreciate the promise of a new technology, or new market opportunity. 
One example would be the mechanical watch industry. They *invented* the 
digital watch; but couldn't see how it could ever pay. So they sold it. 
Digital watches took over the market, and drove most of the mechanical 
watch companies out of business.



Further, if they can seed and build a company with solidly
environmental products, I’m thrilled. It’s tough to do if you don’t
have the wherewithal.


Ironically, it's the big companies that have the wherewithal to try 
something new. They can afford to invest in the R to perfect a new 
idea, and bring it to market.


The small start-up may have a great idea; but they struggle to bring it 
to market. Especially because the big company is likely to fight them 
tooth and nail to keep any new idea out of the market.



Even better, if they can transition their business to make the
positive products a larger and larger part of their business until
the fossil portion disappears ... hallelujah!


Yes; but man, is that ever rare! Can you think of any examples where a 
major company has successfully transitioned from their old business to a 
new business? Most of them would rather DIE than change.


Lee Hart

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I don’t disagree, but neither do I care. I don’t want a company holding on to a 
business that doesn’t work for them. I’d rather they sell it to someone 
interested in making it work.

Further, if they can seed and build a company with solidly environmental 
products, I’m thrilled. It’s tough to do if you don’t have the wherewithal.

Even better, if they can transition their business to make the positive 
products a larger and larger part of their business until the fossil portion 
disappears ... hallelujah!

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Sep 17, 2020, at 6:01 PM, Mr. Sharkey via EV  wrote:
> 
> > Wouldn't you expect that these large oil companies would have
> > the ability to weather industry downturns, improve the
> > technology, and remain around to service warranties, like Siemens,
> > as opposed to a smaller company?
> 
> Well, sure, that would be the expectation, but in their prior exploits in PV, 
> they turned around and sold off the subsidiary when the market for those 
> products got soft and the price point started dropping. That's my point, they 
> aren't dedicated to the principle, only the profits. Even Siemens got out.
> 
> Essentially 100% of photovoltaic production is from China these days. Without 
> research, I couldn't name a single U.S producer of PV modules, and the BOS 
> equipment is mostly assembled in China as well. What will BO (Big Oil) do 
> when the profit drains away from the charging infrastructure? Maybe it won't, 
> then they will own more of the transportation fueling market. Is that a good 
> thing? IDK, I charge at home with power produced with those Siemens PV's...
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Lee Hart via EV]

From: Mark Abramowitz via EV 
> Wouldn’t you expect that these large oil companies would have the ability
> to weather industry downturns, improve the technology, and remain around
> to service warranties, like Siemens, as opposed to a smaller company?

One might naively expect it; but history has shown that big companies are all 
too eager to dodge responsibility for the consequences of their actions. They 
often have to be taken to court, and fight for years to avoid paying.

I have a set of Arco PV panels... remember them? They bought a PV manufacturer, 
and then killed it. No warranty on them, either!

There are exceptions. When Toyota came out with the Prius hybrid, they did 
everything possible to support it. Even though we had tire, brake, power 
steering, and battery problems with out 2001 Prius, Toyota fixed them all for 
free, without the slightest complaint.

But with their RAV-4 EV, they did everything they could to get them of the 
road, and avoid supporting them as soon as possible. They behave as if the car 
never existed.

Lee


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--
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Ok.

Wouldn’t you expect that these large oil companies would have the ability to 
weather industry downturns, improve the technology, and remain around to 
service warranties, like Siemens, as opposed to a smaller company?



- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Sep 17, 2020, at 9:37 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV  wrote:
> 
> > Are you saying that they didn't honor the warranty on
> > some panels you bought?
> 
> No, I purchased Siemens panels which are now out-of-warranty. The point of my 
> comment is that PV manufacturers have been a shifting landscape for years, 
> and few of them stay in business or sell the PV division well before the 
> warranty period expires.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Are you saying that they didn’t honor the warranty on some panels you bought?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Sep 16, 2020, at 5:32 PM, Mr. Sharkey via EV  wrote:
> 
> Don't forget that both BP and Shell (A.K.A. "Royal Dutch Shell") have 
> attempted to greenwash their image in the past by entering into photovoltaic 
> manufacturing.
> 
> Just try getting them to honor the 25 year warranty on any of those solar 
> panels they sold 15 and 20 years ago...
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 16 Sep 2020 at 13:59, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> I can't think of a more unpleasant place to spend 30-45 minutes 

Yeah, I see what you mean.  The French autoroute aires usually have nice 
bright cafes with quite respectable coffee and pastries, so they'd be a good 
place to kill a little charging time.  Somehow, loitering round the La Brea 
coffee urns at the Speedway or whatever here in the States just isn't quite 
the same.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Even when it shines, it looks like rain. 

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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Steves via EV]

If I owned a rest stop store , I’d be pushing to put in chargers. You get a 
captive customer for an hour. Sounds like good business. Might even pay off to 
make the charging free. 

-Steve

> On Sep 16, 2020, at 12:35 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> From: Peri Hartman via EV 
>> But adding ESVEs to existing service areas at 
>> interstate exits is a poor compromise. I can't think of a more 
>> unpleasant place to spend 30-45 minutes: a convenience store with 
>> asphault all around it. No where to go except 2 or 3 other gas stations. 
>> Maybe a diner a quarter mile walk away. This is not very conducive to a 
>> pedestrian - which you are while you spend time waiting for your charge.
> 
> Interstate service areas in the midwest are apparently a lot "friendlier" 
> than in your part of the country.
> 
> Some along the Chicago IL tollways are called an "Oasis", and are built on a 
> bridge over the tollway. They have half a dozen stores, gift shops, 
> restaurants, and of course gas stations and convenience stores.
> 
> The ones along I-94 through Wisconsin and Minnesota have picnic areas and 
> tourist centers (maps, brochures for area attractions, gift shops, and guides 
> to offer advice or travel information). Most also have nature walks leading 
> to lakes, forests to stretch your legs or relieve your dog.
> 
> It would not be hard to spend a pleasant hour at any of these.
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> 
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Lee Hart via EV]

From: Peri Hartman via EV 
>But adding ESVEs to existing service areas at 
>interstate exits is a poor compromise. I can't think of a more 
>unpleasant place to spend 30-45 minutes: a convenience store with 
>asphault all around it. No where to go except 2 or 3 other gas stations. 
>Maybe a diner a quarter mile walk away. This is not very conducive to a 
>pedestrian - which you are while you spend time waiting for your charge.

Interstate service areas in the midwest are apparently a lot "friendlier" than 
in your part of the country.

Some along the Chicago IL tollways are called an "Oasis", and are built on a 
bridge over the tollway. They have half a dozen stores, gift shops, 
restaurants, and of course gas stations and convenience stores.

The ones along I-94 through Wisconsin and Minnesota have picnic areas and 
tourist centers (maps, brochures for area attractions, gift shops, and guides 
to offer advice or travel information). Most also have nature walks leading to 
lakes, forests to stretch your legs or relieve your dog.

It would not be hard to spend a pleasant hour at any of these.

Lee Hart


--
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--
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Peri Hartman via EV]

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 15-Sep-20 9:18:07 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover


I think that you are correct, though I would not call it a green makeover. They 
are investing in energy that will make money.

*** PH: I used the publisher's title - I agree with you.

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 

[putting ESVE at gas stations along US interstates. Not so much on the 
US interstates.] Why not?  I mean other than the fact that in most of 
the nation, especially the middle, governments generally don't give a 
fig.


*** PH: expanding rest areas and doing something like France has done 
could work very well. But adding ESVEs to existing service areas at 
interstate exits is a poor compromise. I can't think of a more 
unpleasant place to spend 30-45 minutes: a convenience store with 
asphault all around it. No where to go except 2 or 3 other gas stations. 
Maybe a diner a quarter mile walk away. This is not very conducive to a 
pedestrian - which you are while you spend time waiting for your charge.

-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I think that you are correct, though I would not call it a green makeover. They 
are investing in energy that will make money.

Note that Equinor, whose projects BP bought into, is Shell.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2020, at 5:32 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> "BP is trying to reinvent itself as an energy company in the age of climate 
> change. The company is shrinking its oil and gas business, revving up 
> offshore wind power and developing solar and battery storage. It is even 
> considering installing electric car charging kiosks at its gas stations, part 
> of a drive to eliminate or offset its carbon emissions to a net zero level by 
> 2050."
> 
> -
> 
> I think this very encouraging and perhaps will be a trend for most of the 
> large energy companies. It's clear that oil, coal, and gas will cease to be a 
> major industry. It's just not clear exactly when. This kind of investment 
> into wind and solar could do more than practically any government incentives 
> or mandates. And if the early investments pan out, that should only 
> accelerate the overall investments.
> 
> Side note: if the US government were to expand interstate rest areas into 
> something like the French model (I don't know if that model exists in other 
> countries), that would help even more. The French autoroute stops have the 
> ubiquitous gas stations but also a few shops, some fast food, and sometimes 
> restaurants, all confined together so you can easily walk to any of them. 
> It's a shoe-in to put EV charging there. Not so much on the US interstates.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2020/09/15/bp-climate-change-transition/
> 
> 
> Now, BP, one of the world’s largest oil and gas companies, is aiming to ride 
> the waves of disruption instead of being crushed under them.
> 
> BP is giving it a try. On Thursday, the London-based oil giant said it would 
> spend $1.1 billion for a half ownership in Equinor’s wind projects off the 
> shores of Massachusetts and New York, with the hope that the partnership will 
> build more offshore wind projects in a global market expected to grow from 30 
> gigawatts now to more than 200 gigawatts by the end of the decade.
> 
> It’s just a start. The oil and gas company’s chief executive Bernard Looney, 
> a drilling and production engineer, said on Aug. 4 that it aims to boost 
> spending on low carbon projects from $500 million a year to $5 

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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 15 Sep 2020 at 20:04, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> Side note: if the US government were to expand interstate rest areas 
> into something like the French model (I don't know if that model exists 
> in other countries), that would help even more. The French autoroute 
> stops have the ubiquitous gas stations but also a few shops, some fast 
> food, and sometimes restaurants, all confined together so you can easily walk
> to any of them. It's a shoe-in to put EV charging there. 

That's already happening.  France seems to be pretty much all in for EVs.

I was there in early March (right before the big lockdown) and both stops I 
made on the A10 heading north to Paris had good-sized charging areas.  I 
didn't take time to look too closely, but I saw  kiosks in use at each.  

> Not so much on the US interstates. 

Why not?  I mean other than the fact that in most of the nation, especially 
the middle, governments generally don't give a fig.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

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offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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