Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-27 Thread Ben Goren via EV 
On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:38 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> Another problem that's come to the fore in recent years is convincing the 
> car's body computers that they should let the accessories work without the 
> car's orginal engine running.

Modern cars are miracles of engineering...but I personally want nothing at all 
to do with most of the computerization parts. The stories in the news recently 
about "subprime" auto loan companies requiring remote kill switches in the cars 
they lease, and then getting overly aggressive in turning off cars...and 
combine with drive-by-wire systems and over-the-air updates and built-in 
Internet connections...and throw in an heaping helping of warrantless FISA and 
NSA and similar activities, plus "script kiddies"...

...and I'm much happier sticking with '60s-era vehicular technology, 
thankyouverymuch.

It's something I've put serious thought into for the '64 1/2 Mustang PHEV 
conversion. The first iteration is going to have a regular hall effect sensor 
sending its own signal straight to the motor controller, but a later iteration 
is likely to stick a GEVCU controller between the two...which means a CAN bus. 
But I'll be keeping the ICE side purely mechanical. Even if some pimply-faced 
youth tries to hack the EV half of the car "for the lulz," flip the main 
disconnect to turn off the EV system and drive away with the V8 -- with breaks 
and steering always being all mechanical.

Of course, that doesn't stop old-fashioned means of mayhem, like slashing tires 
or cutting break lines or a banana in the tailpipe...but those have to be done 
in person, and can't be done from the other side of the planet.

If you want real scary...just wait for one of the Mexican kidnapping cartels to 
figure out how to use remote hacks to take full control of a car.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/we-drove-a-car-while-it-was-being-hacked

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread Chris Meier via EV 
A recent upstart ZElectricBug is having a go at it, one of the cases you 
pointed out. Will be interesting to watch.

On September 26, 2014 3:15:37 PM CDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
>On 26 Sep 2014 at 10:15, Rick Beebe via EV wrote:
>
>> In order to make it work on a massive scale you have to pick one or
>two
>> models of cars so that you can streamline the process and make
>> standardized components like battery racks. Choose the wrong car and
>> you're dead because no one will buy it.
>
>Even if you choose right, you have only a few years at best before the 
>automaker redesigns the car.  Then you have the choice of redesigning
>your 
>conversion, retooling, making new molds and dies and so on; or letting
>your 
>conversions get older and more used.  People who are paying something
>north 
>of $25k for a car don't want an 8-10 year old car, even if it's
>electric, so 
>the answer to this one isn't hard to find.
>
>You could pick a "classic car" glider to convert.  But there you run
>into 
>availability problems - clean gliders and parts.  You also have to
>restore 
>the vehicle before you can convert it.  It becomes a real challenge to
>sell 
>the car for a profit at a price that any normal person can or will pay.
>
>You could contract with an automaker, almost always in Asia or Eastern 
>Europe, to supply you with new gliders.  You end up buying from small, 
>financially strapped automakers whose vehicles aren't state of the art
>or 
>appealing to buyers. Your supplier is also more likely to go out of
>business 
>or stop offering cars in your country.  (Electricar of Athol Fiats and 
>Renaults, anyone?)
>
>Hobbyists have built thousands of conversions, some better than others,
>of 
>course, but often quite successfully.  There's a whole mini-industry
>that 
>serves EV hobbyists with components, batteries, and even a few kits
>(where 
>model-specific, mostly for now rather old cars and trucks).  It's a
>small 
>but still (I think / hope) viable business.
>
>However, I can't think of a case where EV conversion has ever really
>been 
>what you'd call successful on a commercial scale.  Solectria probably
>came 
>closest, and IIRC they only sold 300-some cars and trucks during the
>1990s.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV 
On 26 Sep 2014 at 15:16, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

> ...of course, a really big problem is the batteries. Until we have battery
> packs that can gracefully fit in the space previously occupied by a gas tank,
> _all_ conversions are going to be...interesting

That is indeed one major problem.  I remember Mike Brown talking about what 
he went through with the Voltsrabbit kits.  IIRC, he designed the 
Voltsrabbit battery boxes to fit an early  ('78 or '79) Rabbit perfectly.  
The next year, VW changed the front end of the car - I think that was when 
they went from round to rectangular headlights - and the front battery box 
wouldn't fit any more.

Another problem that's come to the fore in recent years is convincing the 
car's body computers that they should let the accessories work without the 
car's orginal engine running.  ABS brakes sometimes don't work right if the 
engine computer isn't answering the brake computer's insistent questions.  
Traction control?  Good luck.  

Figuring out how to give all these computers the fake input they want isn't 
trivial, and if the manufacturer changes things from one model year to the 
next, you can end up back at square one.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV 
On 27 Sep 2014 at 8:32, George Tyler via EV wrote:

> Yes, so take it out of the realm of DIY by having a world wide not for
> profit company that does it, all you guys shareholders ..

Minor detail : at least in the US, a non-profit corporation can't have 
shareholders.  Well, in a few states it sort of can, but they aren't the 
same as regular shares of stock.  

Nonprofits CAN, however, accept donations, and offer contributors 
significant tax advantages.  Unfortunately many high dollar contributions 
come with strings attached, however.

I thought of something akin to this idea - a nonprofit EV manufacturing 
concern - back in the 1980s.  I figured that since it didn't have to turn a 
profit for stockholders, it could be a more public-minded, risk-taking 
operation.

Since then I've had a fair bit more experience with nonprofit organizations, 
and it's made me more cynical.  I've realized that many of them end up being 
at least as cautious and risk-averse as for-profit companies are.  Often 
they start out with ideals and guts and courage, but hunker down at the 
first sign of economic hardship.  They can easily become so focused on 
surviving as an organization that the original goal kind of recedes into the 
distance.  

Nonprofits do get some tax advantages, but otherwise, most of their expenses 
aren't much different from for-profits'.  

Look at what the big charities pay their executives, for example.  Again, 
they start off being idealists, but at some point they decide (correctly or 
not) that they can't attract savvy bosses unless they pay them like private 
business.  (Whether these executives, profit or non, are really worth the 
salaries they're paid will be left as an exercise for the reader.)

So, call me a cynic (you wouldn't be the first), but I'm skeptical that a 
nonprofit automaker or converter would be any more successful than the for-
profits that have failed at the business in the past.  Prove me wrong!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread Ben Goren via EV 
On Sep 26, 2014, at 1:15 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> There's a whole mini-industry that 
> serves EV hobbyists with components, batteries, and even a few kits (where 
> model-specific, mostly for now rather old cars and trucks).

EVWest has such kits for the aircooled VW platform. Engines are already 
interchangeable between all vehicles in the line, from the earliest Bugs to the 
ones made recently in Mexico, and from Bugs to Busses to Ghias to Things...and 
also, with minimal work, all the rear-engine Porsches as well. Many of those 
cars -- especially the Ghias and Porsches -- are ideal candidates for 
electrification: they're lightweight and aerodynamic.

Since I've gotten the '64 1/2 Mustang, I've learned an awful lot about that 
platform, as well. I'm pretty sure that a similar near-universal kit could be 
made for Ford front-engine RWD cars from at least the 50s through the early 
70s, and I suspect similar possibilities exist for others. For example, I could 
buy a brand-new ludicrous horsepower crate engine from Ford Motor Company 
Racing (or many others) to drop into the '64 1/2 Mustang, and the 260 in3 
engine in the car right now would similarly fit in any car that the new engines 
would. Making a standardized electric equivalent like what EVWest has put 
together for VWs would seem to be a no-brainer.

...of course, a really big problem is the batteries. Until we have battery 
packs that can gracefully fit in the space previously occupied by a gas tank, 
_all_ conversions are going to be...interesting

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread Alan Brinkman via EV 
Co-operation

In San Diego, California there is an EV club or coop that meets at Montgomery 
Field (small airport?) on Saturdays to work on member's conversion projects. 
They also have workshops ($75) and have displays at fairs, etc... They help 
members get their conversions started, and then members usually take their 
projects home to complete when the major electrical and motor install is done. 
This works good  because all of the oil, grease, and gas could be removed at 
their shop. You can see lots of conversions, see what safety items are needed, 
etc..
https://www.facebook.com/kickgasclub/info?ref=page_internal

Here is their home page, scroll down to see an old Dodge truck.
http://kickgasclub.org/

I live two hours away, but my son is in San Diego and wants to convert a small 
truck.

I think in the Bay Area (San Francisco, CA) there are community work shops that 
you can subscribe to for the use of tools and space.

The old Volkswagen beetle is a pretty good platform to standardize an EV 
conversion process for. I also really like the Chevrolet S-10 for a modern 
conversion. Just look what EV-Blue has done as a business entity.

Alan




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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread George Tyler via EV 
Yes, so take it out of the realm of DIY by having a world wide not for
profit company that does it, all you guys shareholders. In this company an
individual can make profits on conversions done for others.
It's the same in NZ, incentives are only for registered companies.
These companies told the government that they would pick up the incentive
payments themselves instead of passing it on to the consumers, government
agreed, so now the incentive does not make it cheaper. This is for home
insulation.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jan Steinman via EV
Sent: Saturday, 27 September 2014 5:12 a.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation

> From: Stephen via EV 
> 
> How about getting a conversion to be recognized with the same 
> incentives that are provided with most new EV sales?

YES!

Unfortunately, governments *rarely* provide incentives to DIYers. I think
they feel there is too much potential for fraud and abuse -- people can and
will claim all sorts of stuff, and the government can only afford to qualify
mass-market *designs*, not individual implementations. Also, they have no
way of telling if a DIY system is even functional or safe.

I went through this regarding domestic hot water in the 70s. They wouldn't
provide the tax break to DIYers, only to professionally-installed systems.
Now, I see the same thing with PV systems.

I don't have an easy answer to satisfying the government's need to get
decent quality for its "investment." Perhaps DIYers could be "certified"
with a test or something - less rigorous than a contractor's license, but
able to weed out those who would do crappy installations that would stop
working in short order.

 At any public relations luncheon, the quality of the food is inversely
related to the quality of the information. -- Earl Ubell
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV 
On 26 Sep 2014 at 10:15, Rick Beebe via EV wrote:

> In order to make it work on a massive scale you have to pick one or two
> models of cars so that you can streamline the process and make
> standardized components like battery racks. Choose the wrong car and
> you're dead because no one will buy it.

Even if you choose right, you have only a few years at best before the 
automaker redesigns the car.  Then you have the choice of redesigning your 
conversion, retooling, making new molds and dies and so on; or letting your 
conversions get older and more used.  People who are paying something north 
of $25k for a car don't want an 8-10 year old car, even if it's electric, so 
the answer to this one isn't hard to find.

You could pick a "classic car" glider to convert.  But there you run into 
availability problems - clean gliders and parts.  You also have to restore 
the vehicle before you can convert it.  It becomes a real challenge to sell 
the car for a profit at a price that any normal person can or will pay.

You could contract with an automaker, almost always in Asia or Eastern 
Europe, to supply you with new gliders.  You end up buying from small, 
financially strapped automakers whose vehicles aren't state of the art or 
appealing to buyers. Your supplier is also more likely to go out of business 
or stop offering cars in your country.  (Electricar of Athol Fiats and 
Renaults, anyone?)

Hobbyists have built thousands of conversions, some better than others, of 
course, but often quite successfully.  There's a whole mini-industry that 
serves EV hobbyists with components, batteries, and even a few kits (where 
model-specific, mostly for now rather old cars and trucks).  It's a small 
but still (I think / hope) viable business.

However, I can't think of a case where EV conversion has ever really been 
what you'd call successful on a commercial scale.  Solectria probably came 
closest, and IIRC they only sold 300-some cars and trucks during the 1990s.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread Jan Steinman via EV 
> From: Stephen via EV 
> 
> How about getting a conversion to be recognized with the same incentives
> that are provided with most new EV sales?

YES!

Unfortunately, governments *rarely* provide incentives to DIYers. I think they 
feel there is too much potential for fraud and abuse -- people can and will 
claim all sorts of stuff, and the government can only afford to qualify 
mass-market *designs*, not individual implementations. Also, they have no way 
of telling if a DIY system is even functional or safe.

I went through this regarding domestic hot water in the 70s. They wouldn't 
provide the tax break to DIYers, only to professionally-installed systems. Now, 
I see the same thing with PV systems.

I don't have an easy answer to satisfying the government's need to get decent 
quality for its "investment." Perhaps DIYers could be "certified" with a test 
or something — less rigorous than a contractor's license, but able to weed out 
those who would do crappy installations that would stop working in short order.

 At any public relations luncheon, the quality of the food is inversely 
related to the quality of the information. -- Earl Ubell
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread Lee Hart via EV 

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

It was a rude awakening to me when I realized that all the Greatness of an
EV to solve all our problems does not apply to congestion...


How about if the EV is Rick Woodbury's Tango (see www.commutercars.com)? 
This is a car the size of a motorcycle; 1/4th the size of a normal car. 
It seats two, is fully freeway capable, and has met NHTSC crash 
standards. You can legally "lane split" like motorcycles (driving two 
abreast) in most states. potentially doubling the capacity of highways. 
Four can park in a normal car's parking place, greatly expanding parking.


--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do these great deeds, worth repeating.
-- Ben Franklin, from Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread Stephen via EV 
I tend to agree... The HOV lanes in the Bay Area are generally almost as
full as any other lane nowadays due to all the single person EVs in them.
So any advantage on those grounds is really muted.

I suppose my point is that there are various incentives that apply to new
EVs that are not extended to conversions, and so back to the original post,
I don't think there's as much interest in conversions simply because it
doesn't offer the incentives of buying new.

Furthermore, I think if the government was to really get behind
conversions, I fear they would implement some fairly strict implementation,
inspection and verification requirements that would make it more difficult
to do. Things like weight requirements that are in place in other
countries, that really impact the implementation of converting a car which
wasn't designed from the ground up as an EV into an EV. That would
effectively kill most conversions right there.

Regards,
Stephen

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 5:38 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> It was a rude awakening to me when I realized that all the Greatness of an
> EV to solve all our problems does not apply to congestion (unless one
> switches to an electric bike).  So I have not been a supporter of HOV
> stickers for EV's.
>
> HOV stickers for EV's with only 1 person in them does not make sense.  AND
> it just adds to anti-EV sentiment...  Doing more damage than long term
> gain...
>
> Bob
>
> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 4:53 AM, George Tyler via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Well, if you had Elon Musk on your side maybe he, with his resources,
> could
> > get this changed, as well as other laws around EV's
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de
> Water
> > via EV
> > Sent: Friday, 26 September 2014 3:21 p.m.
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation
> >
> > I too have tried to get HOV stickers, but the agency providing the
> sticker
> > have made a very narrow interpretation of the California laws, where it
> > indicates that all qualified vehicles should get a sticker (clearly
> > meaning:
> > all zero emissions vehicles) the agency has changed their interpretation
> > and
> > enforcement to only give stickers to vehicles where the *manufacturer* of
> > the vehicle has certified that the vehicle qualifies (meets a set of
> rules
> > that they have defined).
> > I am doubting whether this was an attempt to kill interest in EVs in
> > general
> > by making it unattractive (difficult) to qualify for HOV stickers, but it
> > certainly causes all pre-existing and self-converted vehicles to become
> > disqualified from HOV stickers, which sounds arbitrary.
> > Anyway, the interpretation of the agency causes this and it seems that it
> > is
> > an incorrect interpretation of the law. Either a lot of pressure on this
> > agency or a lawsuit might be needed to change this interpretation - or
> > enough politicians that hear from their (EV driving) constituency and
> make
> > it explicit to the agency that they must issue stickers to *all* EVs.
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Chief Scientist
> > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> > Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Stephen via EV
> > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 3:06 PM
> > To: HARSHA GODAVARI; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation
> >
> > How about getting a conversion to be recognized with the same incentives
> > that are provided with most new EV sales? I converted my own car, at my
> own
> > full cost, with no tax breaks or other incentives, and now can not even
> get
> > a HOV sticker in California, even though the CA DMV and state BAR have
> both
> > verified it as a pure electric vehicle and is fully exempt from any
> future
> > smog certification.
> >
> > In the end, I did it for the savings in fuel costs, the silence, and it
> > leaves me open to do whatever performance increases I want without any
> > limitation (e.g. smog certification. It would be nice though to get to
> use
> > that car pool lane ;-). from what I see, most EV buyers in CA are simply
> > buying their way to a more convenient commute.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Stephen
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:58 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org
> > >
> > wrote:
>

Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread Rick Beebe via EV 
On 09/25/2014 07:47 PM, George Tyler via EV wrote:
> Well, I am also a bit senior! Elon Musk wants to see an electric car
> industry develop. Current new EV's are the only way in which most people can
> get them, but they are too expensive for most people. The conversions could
> cost less, there are companies doing conversions but not main stream. Tesla
> (Elon) wants to see basically only electrics on the road, he could help many
> here to get into the main stream market and further his aims by achieving a
> critical mass.
I like your sentiment but I don't think the argument works. A conversion
is going to cost at least $15,000 plus the price of the car being
converted. There is a lot of extra labor involved in getting the car
de-gassified. And if you're doing the conversion for Joe Everybody, it
can't be--as many of our conversions are--a rolling science experiment.
That involves a lot of extra work and expense in figuring out things
like transmissions and interfacing to the car's computers. And you end
up with a vehicle that is probably only repairable by the conversion
shop that did it, that's hard to get financing for, and that likely has
a very low resale value.

In order to make it work on a massive scale you have to pick one or two
models of cars so that you can streamline the process and make
standardized components like battery racks. Choose the wrong car and
you're dead because no one will buy it. Frankly I think that's part of
what killed Solectria...who really wants a Geo Metro?

An electric car industry is developing and it's going to be new cars.
And the price is coming down. I am leasing a Smart ED for for which I
paid $238 down and $124 per month. I've seen Leafs for $199/mo and a
dealer in California is offering (a very limited number of) BMW i3's for
$329 per month. There are options if you want an electric car.

And we don't want to hit critical mass yetthe supply chain isn't
mature enough to provide all those cars. But I think we're making
progress and I believe EVs are not going away this time.

--Rick
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV 
It was a rude awakening to me when I realized that all the Greatness of an
EV to solve all our problems does not apply to congestion (unless one
switches to an electric bike).  So I have not been a supporter of HOV
stickers for EV's.

HOV stickers for EV's with only 1 person in them does not make sense.  AND
it just adds to anti-EV sentiment...  Doing more damage than long term
gain...

Bob

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 4:53 AM, George Tyler via EV 
wrote:

> Well, if you had Elon Musk on your side maybe he, with his resources, could
> get this changed, as well as other laws around EV's
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> via EV
> Sent: Friday, 26 September 2014 3:21 p.m.
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation
>
> I too have tried to get HOV stickers, but the agency providing the sticker
> have made a very narrow interpretation of the California laws, where it
> indicates that all qualified vehicles should get a sticker (clearly
> meaning:
> all zero emissions vehicles) the agency has changed their interpretation
> and
> enforcement to only give stickers to vehicles where the *manufacturer* of
> the vehicle has certified that the vehicle qualifies (meets a set of rules
> that they have defined).
> I am doubting whether this was an attempt to kill interest in EVs in
> general
> by making it unattractive (difficult) to qualify for HOV stickers, but it
> certainly causes all pre-existing and self-converted vehicles to become
> disqualified from HOV stickers, which sounds arbitrary.
> Anyway, the interpretation of the agency causes this and it seems that it
> is
> an incorrect interpretation of the law. Either a lot of pressure on this
> agency or a lawsuit might be needed to change this interpretation - or
> enough politicians that hear from their (EV driving) constituency and make
> it explicit to the agency that they must issue stickers to *all* EVs.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Stephen via EV
> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 3:06 PM
> To: HARSHA GODAVARI; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation
>
> How about getting a conversion to be recognized with the same incentives
> that are provided with most new EV sales? I converted my own car, at my own
> full cost, with no tax breaks or other incentives, and now can not even get
> a HOV sticker in California, even though the CA DMV and state BAR have both
> verified it as a pure electric vehicle and is fully exempt from any future
> smog certification.
>
> In the end, I did it for the savings in fuel costs, the silence, and it
> leaves me open to do whatever performance increases I want without any
> limitation (e.g. smog certification. It would be nice though to get to use
> that car pool lane ;-). from what I see, most EV buyers in CA are simply
> buying their way to a more convenient commute.
>
> Regards,
> Stephen
>
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:58 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV  >
> wrote:
>
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: George Tyler via EV 
> > To: 'brucedp5' , 'Electric Vehicle Discussion
> > List' 
> > Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:43:05 -0600 (MDT)
> > Subject: [EVDL] co-operation
> >
> > > In this forum we have all the skills necessary to set up a franchise
> > that is in it's self  >not for profit but works to further the
> development
> > of a market for converted cars which  >could be a fraction of the cost
> of
> > the current manufacturer's cars. This would really get >things going.
> >
> > Could you elaborate a little on this. I am a little confused (senior
> > moment..my natural state) as to what you are saying. Thanks.
> >
> > regards
> > hg
> > ___
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> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-26 Thread George Tyler via EV 
Well, if you had Elon Musk on your side maybe he, with his resources, could
get this changed, as well as other laws around EV's

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: Friday, 26 September 2014 3:21 p.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation

I too have tried to get HOV stickers, but the agency providing the sticker
have made a very narrow interpretation of the California laws, where it
indicates that all qualified vehicles should get a sticker (clearly meaning:
all zero emissions vehicles) the agency has changed their interpretation and
enforcement to only give stickers to vehicles where the *manufacturer* of
the vehicle has certified that the vehicle qualifies (meets a set of rules
that they have defined).
I am doubting whether this was an attempt to kill interest in EVs in general
by making it unattractive (difficult) to qualify for HOV stickers, but it
certainly causes all pre-existing and self-converted vehicles to become
disqualified from HOV stickers, which sounds arbitrary.
Anyway, the interpretation of the agency causes this and it seems that it is
an incorrect interpretation of the law. Either a lot of pressure on this
agency or a lawsuit might be needed to change this interpretation - or
enough politicians that hear from their (EV driving) constituency and make
it explicit to the agency that they must issue stickers to *all* EVs.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Stephen via EV
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 3:06 PM
To: HARSHA GODAVARI; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation

How about getting a conversion to be recognized with the same incentives
that are provided with most new EV sales? I converted my own car, at my own
full cost, with no tax breaks or other incentives, and now can not even get
a HOV sticker in California, even though the CA DMV and state BAR have both
verified it as a pure electric vehicle and is fully exempt from any future
smog certification.

In the end, I did it for the savings in fuel costs, the silence, and it
leaves me open to do whatever performance increases I want without any
limitation (e.g. smog certification. It would be nice though to get to use
that car pool lane ;-). from what I see, most EV buyers in CA are simply
buying their way to a more convenient commute.

Regards,
Stephen

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:58 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV 
wrote:

>
> - Original Message -
> From: George Tyler via EV 
> To: 'brucedp5' , 'Electric Vehicle Discussion 
> List' 
> Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:43:05 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: [EVDL] co-operation
>
> > In this forum we have all the skills necessary to set up a franchise
> that is in it's self  >not for profit but works to further the
development
> of a market for converted cars which  >could be a fraction of the cost
of
> the current manufacturer's cars. This would really get >things going.
>
> Could you elaborate a little on this. I am a little confused (senior 
> moment..my natural state) as to what you are saying. Thanks.
>
> regards
> hg
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-25 Thread Cor van de Water via EV 
I too have tried to get HOV stickers, but the agency providing the
sticker have made a very narrow interpretation of the California laws,
where it indicates that all qualified vehicles should get a sticker
(clearly meaning: all zero emissions vehicles) the agency has changed
their interpretation and enforcement to only give stickers to vehicles
where the *manufacturer* of the vehicle has certified that the
vehicle qualifies (meets a set of rules that they have defined).
I am doubting whether this was an attempt to kill interest in EVs in
general
by making it unattractive (difficult) to qualify for HOV stickers, but
it
certainly causes all pre-existing and self-converted vehicles to become
disqualified from HOV stickers, which sounds arbitrary.
Anyway, the interpretation of the agency causes this and it seems that
it is an incorrect interpretation of the law. Either a lot of pressure
on this agency or a lawsuit might be needed to change this
interpretation - or enough politicians that hear from their (EV driving)
constituency and make it explicit to the agency that they must issue
stickers to *all* EVs.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Stephen via EV
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 3:06 PM
To: HARSHA GODAVARI; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation

How about getting a conversion to be recognized with the same incentives
that are provided with most new EV sales? I converted my own car, at my
own
full cost, with no tax breaks or other incentives, and now can not even
get
a HOV sticker in California, even though the CA DMV and state BAR have
both
verified it as a pure electric vehicle and is fully exempt from any
future
smog certification.

In the end, I did it for the savings in fuel costs, the silence, and it
leaves me open to do whatever performance increases I want without any
limitation (e.g. smog certification. It would be nice though to get to
use
that car pool lane ;-). from what I see, most EV buyers in CA are simply
buying their way to a more convenient commute.

Regards,
Stephen

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:58 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV

wrote:

>
> - Original Message -
> From: George Tyler via EV 
> To: 'brucedp5' , 'Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List' 
> Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:43:05 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: [EVDL] co-operation
>
> > In this forum we have all the skills necessary to set up a franchise
> that is in it's self  >not for profit but works to further the
development
> of a market for converted cars which  >could be a fraction of the cost
of
> the current manufacturer's cars. This would really get >things going.
>
> Could you elaborate a little on this. I am a little confused (senior
> moment..my natural state) as to what you are saying. Thanks.
>
> regards
> hg
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-25 Thread Stephen via EV 
How about getting a conversion to be recognized with the same incentives
that are provided with most new EV sales? I converted my own car, at my own
full cost, with no tax breaks or other incentives, and now can not even get
a HOV sticker in California, even though the CA DMV and state BAR have both
verified it as a pure electric vehicle and is fully exempt from any future
smog certification.

In the end, I did it for the savings in fuel costs, the silence, and it
leaves me open to do whatever performance increases I want without any
limitation (e.g. smog certification. It would be nice though to get to use
that car pool lane ;-). from what I see, most EV buyers in CA are simply
buying their way to a more convenient commute.

Regards,
Stephen

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:58 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV 
wrote:

>
> - Original Message -
> From: George Tyler via EV 
> To: 'brucedp5' , 'Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List' 
> Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:43:05 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: [EVDL] co-operation
>
> > In this forum we have all the skills necessary to set up a franchise
> that is in it's self  >not for profit but works to further the development
> of a market for converted cars which  >could be a fraction of the cost of
> the current manufacturer's cars. This would really get >things going.
>
> Could you elaborate a little on this. I am a little confused (senior
> moment..my natural state) as to what you are saying. Thanks.
>
> regards
> hg
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-25 Thread George Tyler via EV 
Well, I am also a bit senior! Elon Musk wants to see an electric car
industry develop. Current new EV's are the only way in which most people can
get them, but they are too expensive for most people. The conversions could
cost less, there are companies doing conversions but not main stream. Tesla
(Elon) wants to see basically only electrics on the road, he could help many
here to get into the main stream market and further his aims by achieving a
critical mass.
If there was an organisation that approved conversions, that would
advertise on TV? Imagine, tell everyone they can buy a converted car that
would be like new for a cheaper price, guaranteed by a trust fund (part of
the sale price goes into the trust account), get the government to extend
the rebates to these as well? Tesla could supply
batteries/motors/controllers as a kit, mass produced they would be cheaper
too. Put a tax on sale of 2nd hand ICE cars to fund the rebates on electric,
the price of cars would fall too. 
This could be added to as well, all I have at the moment.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of HARSHA GODAVARI via
EV
Sent: Friday, 26 September 2014 8:58 a.m.
To: EV
Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation


- Original Message -
From: George Tyler via EV 
To: 'brucedp5' , 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'

Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:43:05 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [EVDL] co-operation

> In this forum we have all the skills necessary to set up a franchise that
is in it's self  >not for profit but works to further the development of a
market for converted cars which  >could be a fraction of the cost of the
current manufacturer's cars. This would really get >things going.

Could you elaborate a little on this. I am a little confused (senior
moment..my natural state) as to what you are saying. Thanks.

regards
hg
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-25 Thread HARSHA GODAVARI via EV 

- Original Message -
From: George Tyler via EV 
To: 'brucedp5' , 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' 

Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:43:05 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [EVDL] co-operation

> In this forum we have all the skills necessary to set up a franchise that is 
> in it's self  >not for profit but works to further the development of a 
> market for converted cars which  >could be a fraction of the cost of the 
> current manufacturer's cars. This would really get >things going.

Could you elaborate a little on this. I am a little confused (senior moment..my 
natural state) as to what you are saying. Thanks.

regards
hg
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

2014-09-25 Thread Sean Korb via EV 
This is more of a philosophical discussion and may be off topic.  It's
worth mentioning that Elon Musk *does* want to make money and thinks this
is a good way to do it.  The industry will follow not out of the goodness
of their heart but for all the profits they could make.  Consumers will
follow to get the best deal.  Tesla does have some not so secret sauce on
battery packaging and management so they could be a supplier to the
hobbyist if they wanted to... but  won't as it dilutes their brand as a car
company.

The high cost of entry continues to be a barrier to most consumers.  If you
are investing that money you need something that you know will last 10
years doing what you want it to do.  I think we have cars now that indeed
do this.  It's just going to take some time for it to be cool enough for it
to take off.  I'll tell you one thing, if they do last 10 years that should
be long enough to see another gas crunch and then everyone will know a
person with an electric car that is less impacted.  That will be quite a
boost to the industry.  Consumers wallets are an overriding force in most
markets.

sean

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 4:43 PM, George Tyler via EV 
wrote:

> Elon Musk says that America is the easiest place to get any new thing
> going, and he is probably right. There are more EV conversions in USA than
> anywhere else, and there are people doing it commercially. Why has this
> market not taken off? In this forum we have all the skills necessary to set
> up a franchise that is in it's self not for profit but works to further the
> development of a market for converted cars which could be a fraction of the
> cost of the current manufacturer's cars. This would really get things going.
> Someone could speak to Elon Musk, get some help, financially and
> in other ways. With other big players they are only interested in the money
> they can make out of it, but Elon aims to create an electric car industry,
> does not really care about the money for it's own sake, only for what it
> can do to make a difference to the world. We should work with this as much
> as possible as the people on here and Elon have this in common, something
> unique, it is too good an opportunity to miss.
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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