RE: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[Chris de Morsella]

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 3:32 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

 

On 4/15/2014 3:19 PM, LizR wrote:

On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb  wrote:

What cultural ideas would those be?  Get out of Viet Nam?  Civil rights for 
blacks?  The pill? 

 

Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the 
anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of expression, a 
raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain...


I can see attributing some artistic ideas to the psychedelics, but I think the 
anti-establishment vibe came from the Viet Nam war and sexual freedom came from 
the pill. Ideals of equality drove the civil rights movement and its natural 
extension was to equal rights for women.

>>I don't see any useful insights as having come from psychedelics.  Sure, 
>>their effect is interesting from a neurophysiological standpoint - but so are 
>>brain lesions.

 

One can argue, in fact I am doing so – grin – that it is  a case of the sum 
being more than the  parts. 

On one level, certainly, it is a neuro-active-chemical experience, but on 
another the experience (however it is induced) leads to the kindling within of 
a kind of 3p bird’s eye view on the self – re-joined into a much vaster cosmic 
web – and that emerges within the self – or can emerge where conditions for 
such emergence exist. 

It is this emergent awareness, not so much the various psychedelic drugs 
themselves that were, are, can be the agents that  triggered awareness to trip 
over into the altered state of consciousness that is the more interesting 
phenomena of psychedelic experience.

Once transcendent awareness emerges it can, on occasion, take root on its own, 
without the need for doorways to become chemically opened.

Chris



Brent

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Re: Climate models

[spudboy100]

Pair bonding. A concept offered up by Ashly Montague. I don't think that many 
women would be thrilled with polygamy. They do much better with serial 
relationships. 


-Original Message-
From: meekerdb 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Tue, Apr 15, 2014 12:38 pm
Subject: Re: Climate models


  

On 4/15/2014 1:59 AM, Telmo Menezes  wrote:


  

  

  
Poligamy is common when  big disparity of wealt, inlow density 
coutries in harsh conditions or in societieswhere violence is 
increasing Do you thing that  theseconditions are in the 
aspirations of the civilizedsociety?. The fact that we are 
towards it.

  

  
  

  
  
I think that the aspiration of civilisation should be toallow humans to 
dream and transcend their current condition. Iimagine a more advances 
civilisation being much less concernedwith sexual norms.


Polygamy, freely  chosen, is probably a better system than serial 
monogamy - which  is what tends to be practiced by wealthy men in the west. 
 Robert  Wright makes the case polygamy was banned in the west as a  
populist measure to ensure that almost all men could find a wife;  which 
makes for a more stable society.  But it actually restricts  women's 
choices and goes against biological evolution. He quotes  Gloria Steinem as 
having said, "I'd rather be Robert Kennedy Jr's  second wife than Pee Wee 
Herman's first."  Of course polygamy as  actually practiced in cults and 
Afghanistan tends to be forced on  very young girls, and not freely chosen.
  
  Brent
  

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Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[LizR]

On 16 April 2014 10:32, meekerdb  wrote:

>  On 4/15/2014 3:19 PM, LizR wrote:
>
>  On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb  wrote:
>
>> What cultural ideas would those be?  Get out of Viet Nam?  Civil rights
>> for blacks?  The pill?
>>
>>   Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the
> anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of
> expression, a raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain...
>
>  I can see attributing some artistic ideas to the psychedelics, but I
> think the anti-establishment vibe came from the Viet Nam war and sexual
> freedom came from the pill. Ideals of equality drove the civil rights
> movement and its natural extension was to equal rights for women.
>

The anti-establishment vibe didn't just come from Viet Nam by a long shot.
Britain in the 60s was reacting against the austerity and downright terror
of the Second World War and having come so close to having been amalgamated
into the Third Reich, the anti-estab vibe was particularly directed at
Colonel Blimp type military figures because these had been in the public
consciousness since WW2 as authority figures, but I suspect it was also a
shadow of the anti-Nazi feeling that had gone before it, who were after all
the "ultimate authoritarians". (This is in my opinion the origin of
"Dalekmania.") However, I agree it wasn't specifically due to drugs, those
were more involved in the explosion of artistic creativity that happened
around the same time, notably the Beatles, new wave science fiction, Pop
art, the huge diversity of new fashions, TV shows like "Dr Who" and "The
Prisoner" ... I could go on but I don't want  to bore you. I agree with you
about the pill (although technically that *is* a drug :)

>
> I don't see any useful insights as having come from psychedelics.  Sure,
> their effect is interesting from a neurophysiological standpoint - but so
> are brain lesions.
>

Depends if you call "Dark side of the Moon" or whatever a useful insight, I
guess. As someone said, if you don't like drugs, you'd better burn your
music collection. And much of literature and art, of course.

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Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[meekerdb]

On 4/15/2014 3:19 PM, LizR wrote:

On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

What cultural ideas would those be?  Get out of Viet Nam?  Civil rights for blacks? 
The pill?


Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the 
anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of expression, a raft of 
artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain...


I can see attributing some artistic ideas to the psychedelics, but I think the 
anti-establishment vibe came from the Viet Nam war and sexual freedom came from the pill. 
Ideals of equality drove the civil rights movement and its natural extension was to equal 
rights for women.


I don't see any useful insights as having come from psychedelics. Sure, their effect is 
interesting from a neurophysiological standpoint - but so are brain lesions.


Brent

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Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[LizR]

On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb  wrote:

> What cultural ideas would those be?  Get out of Viet Nam?  Civil rights
> for blacks?  The pill?
>
> Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the
anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of
expression, a raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain...

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Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[meekerdb]

On 4/15/2014 1:41 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote:




On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb > wrote:


On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:



An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from 
synesthesia
caused by psychadelics.

Telmo.


I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link?


Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's 
"stoned
ape" theory, but I can't find anything...


That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit 
rudimentary
language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal 
is huge.


I  agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I 
see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention.


  I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the
development of language.


Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in 
the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a 
degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still 
reverberate today, were "unearthed" by using LSD, cannabis, etc.


What cultural ideas would those be?  Get out of Viet Nam?  Civil rights for 
blacks?  The pill?



I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, 
because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of 
computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational 
substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with 
the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of 
interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get "the dark side of the 
moon" -- if musical talent is already present, of course :)


I think the analogy is wrong.  Brains compute by chemical transmitters.  So when we 
interfere with the chemistry, its analogous to changing program steps in a digital 
computer - not to messing with the substrate (e.g. silicon).  A brain is a neural 
network.  It can (probably) be simulated by a digital computer; but the simulation will be 
a low level.  At that level LSD would be simulated as changing some connection strengths.


Brent



Telmo.


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Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[Telmo Menezes]

On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb  wrote:

>  On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>
> An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated
>> from synesthesia caused by psychadelics.
>>
>>  Telmo.
>>
>>
>>  I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link?
>>
>
>  Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to
> McKenna's "stoned ape" theory, but I can't find anything...
>
>
> That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit
> rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making
> social animal is huge.
>

I  agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is
far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the
reasons you mention.


>   I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse
> the development of language.
>

Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it
playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern
times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that
originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were "unearthed"
by using LSD, cannabis, etc.

I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for
AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ
from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if
we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an
inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some
transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting
things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get "the dark side of the
moon" -- if musical talent is already present, of course :)

Telmo.


>
> Brent
>
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>

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Re: Video of VCR

[Craig Weinberg]

On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:21:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 14 Apr 2014, at 21:47, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, April 13, 2014 12:44:37 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>> 
>
>
>> That my sun in law might not be a zombie/doll. Comp assumes that the   
>> brain is Turing emulable at some level of description. 
>>
>
> What does the brain being Turing emulable mean in this context other than 
> that "consciousness is generated by computation"? 
>
>
> "consciousness is generated by computation" is misleading, especially in 
> the Aristotelian era. 
> How will people understand that consciousness generates the appearance of 
> matter, without any matter, if they visualize consciousness as a brain 
> product. 
> I don't even say that the brain is Turing emulable, comp only asks for a 
> level of description of the brain so that I would genuinely survive or 
> experience if a simulation of my brain (which by itself might be a non 
> Turing emulable object) at that level.
>

We're not talking about what people will understand though, we're talking 
about the basic claim of comp. The brain is only involved because you bring 
it in to allow Church-Turing to build Frankensun.
 

>
>
>
>
> If sun in law is not a doll, and if he has a brain that is being emulated 
> by a Turing machine, then that means that the computation of the machine is 
> generating his consciousness.
>
>
> Not really. You reason in the aristotelian picture, where brain are real 
> object, etc. The classical comp picture is a priori very different, you 
> have a 3p ocean of computations in arithmetic, and a consciousness 
> particularization process made in play by natural coherence conditions 
> among some infinite sets of computations. 
>
>
I make no claims at all on the objectivity of brains, I only am reading 
back to you what your position seems to be to me. If you introduce the 
brain's presumed partial Turing emulability into the discussion, then I 
presume you do so to argue that emulability supports the sufficiency of 
computation to  generate consciousness. The ability of computation to 
generate consciousness is the sole aspect of computationalism/digital 
functionalism that I disagree with (and all of the consequences of it). If 
you are not saying that comp generates consciousness, then I'm not sure 
what you have been arguing all this time.
 

>
>
>
>
> In my work, comp is an assumption, but usually comp is seen as a   
>> consequence of other theories, and is usually an implicit theory of   
>> all materialist (and that is a problem for them, as UDA shows that   
>> comp does not marry well with materialism). 
>>
>> By materialism, as usual I mean the weak sense: the doctrine which   
>> asserts the primitive existence of matter (or time, space, energy, ...). 
>>
>> UDA assumes consciousness as subject matter of the inquiry, and   
>> assumes that it is invariant for digital functional substitution done   
>> at some level, and it explains from that assumption that both   
>> consciousness and matter emerges from arithmetic. 
>
>
> If you assume rather than prove digital functional substitution for 
> consciousness, then how can the conclusion that consciousness emerges from 
> arithmetic be something other than tautology?
>
>
> Because it implies very strong constraints on the physical reality. My 
> point is that comp is testable. 
> Comp makes theology an experimental science.
>
> In science, we never prove anything. We collect evidence and try theories.
>

You're the one who keeps demanding proof of the unprovable from me. I don't 
ask for proof, only sense.
 

>  
>
>
>  
>
>> Then AUDA (the   
>> arithmetical UDA) shows, by applying an idea of Theaetetus on Gödel's   
>> predicate of probability,  how to make the derivation, and derives the   
>> propositional physics, (the logic of the observable) making comp +   
>> Theaetetus is testable. 
>>
>
> It doesn't surprise me very much, as I would expect that formal, 
> linguistically based interactions could be automated to an impressive 
> degree.
>
>
> That is the computational metaphor, and it is another topic. Comp implies 
> that such metaphor is always wrong both for mind and matter, independently 
> of being useful.
>

Well, comp would have to imply that or else admit that it was a false 
theory.
 

>
>
>
>
> It has nothing to do with qualia though. The presence of aesthetic 
> phenomena, including intention and care, has no place in AUDA as far as I 
> can tell, which would run monotonously regardless of the consequences.
>
>
> X1*. You just don't study, 
>

How can I justify what seems to produce nothing of interest to me. A chef 
might be curious to see how plastic fruit is made, but he need not be 
interested in it professionally.

 

> I will pass also the commentary which just show that you have not study, 
> probably because you believe that if qualia are informal a theory about 
> them has to be informal. 
>

To the contrary, I am 

Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[Craig Weinberg]

On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 12:44:32 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>
>  On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>  
> An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated 
>> from synesthesia caused by psychadelics.
>>
>>  Telmo.
>>   
>>  
>>  I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link?
>>  
>
>  Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to 
> McKenna's "stoned ape" theory, but I can't find anything...
>
>
> That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit 
> rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making 
> social animal is huge.  I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but 
> confound and confuse the development of language.
>

I don't have any particular view on the possible role that psychedelics 
played in human evolution, but I can see how synesthesia could be an 
advantage if there were reason to think that it were present in some 
meaningful way. There is a guy who has acquired musical savant ability 
because he can see graphic symbols of notes that show him how to play. That 
sort of thing could be developed for language just as easily. The one who 
can see or hear or taste the sensibility of language could very well be in 
the best position to build consistent and aesthetically harmonized ways of 
integrating verbal language with gestures and writing. It would only be 
confusing if consciousness was an isolated program that can only build from 
the bottom up rather than the unifying resource of all phenomenabut 
there is no reason that we have to assume something like that.

Craig


> Brent
>  

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Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[Chris de Morsella]

 From: meekerdb 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
 


On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia 
caused by psychadelics.
>>>
>>>
>>>Telmo.
>>
>>
>>I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link?
>
>
>Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's 
>"stoned ape" theory, but I can't find anything...
That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit 
rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social 
animal is huge.  I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and 
confuse the development of language.

Brent

And there also is the whole evolution of our vocal chords dimension... without 
the ability to modulate and control sound that our vocal chords give us we 
would not have spoken language, beyond rudimentary grunts. Chimps lack our 
vocalization ability, the range of sounds they can produce is very limited as 
compared with our species. Spoken language at least depends on having the 
physical ability to produce a wide variety of sounds and pitches in a 
controlled manner. Chimps and other apes are pretty adept at learning symbolic 
sign (or other symbols)  language -- mastering a symbolic vocabulary of (if I 
recall correctly) around 500 symbols or so, but they cannot speak because they 
do not have vocal chords -- at least not ones that can be controlled to produce 
such a wide variety of sounds like our human vocal chords can.
Chris


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Re: Video of VCR

[Bruno Marchal]

On 14 Apr 2014, at 21:47, Craig Weinberg wrote:




On Sunday, April 13, 2014 12:44:37 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:


That my sun in law might not be a zombie/doll. Comp assumes that the
brain is Turing emulable at some level of description.

What does the brain being Turing emulable mean in this context other  
than that "consciousness is generated by computation"?


"consciousness is generated by computation" is misleading, especially  
in the Aristotelian era.
How will people understand that consciousness generates the appearance  
of matter, without any matter, if they visualize consciousness as a  
brain product.
I don't even say that the brain is Turing emulable, comp only asks for  
a level of description of the brain so that I would genuinely survive  
or experience if a simulation of my brain (which by itself might be a  
non Turing emulable object) at that level.





If sun in law is not a doll, and if he has a brain that is being  
emulated by a Turing machine, then that means that the computation  
of the machine is generating his consciousness.


Not really. You reason in the aristotelian picture, where brain are  
real object, etc. The classical comp picture is a priori very  
different, you have a 3p ocean of computations in arithmetic, and a  
consciousness particularization process made in play by natural  
coherence conditions among some infinite sets of computations.







In my work, comp is an assumption, but usually comp is seen as a
consequence of other theories, and is usually an implicit theory of
all materialist (and that is a problem for them, as UDA shows that
comp does not marry well with materialism).

By materialism, as usual I mean the weak sense: the doctrine which
asserts the primitive existence of matter (or time, space,  
energy, ...).


UDA assumes consciousness as subject matter of the inquiry, and
assumes that it is invariant for digital functional substitution done
at some level, and it explains from that assumption that both
consciousness and matter emerges from arithmetic.

If you assume rather than prove digital functional substitution for  
consciousness, then how can the conclusion that consciousness  
emerges from arithmetic be something other than tautology?


Because it implies very strong constraints on the physical reality. My  
point is that comp is testable.

Comp makes theology an experimental science.

In science, we never prove anything. We collect evidence and try  
theories.





Then AUDA (the
arithmetical UDA) shows, by applying an idea of Theaetetus on Gödel's
predicate of probability,  how to make the derivation, and derives the
propositional physics, (the logic of the observable) making comp +
Theaetetus is testable.

It doesn't surprise me very much, as I would expect that formal,  
linguistically based interactions could be automated to an  
impressive degree.


That is the computational metaphor, and it is another topic. Comp  
implies that such metaphor is always wrong both for mind and matter,  
independently of being useful.





It has nothing to do with qualia though. The presence of aesthetic  
phenomena, including intention and care, has no place in AUDA as far  
as I can tell, which would run monotonously regardless of the  
consequences.


X1*. You just don't study, I will pass also the commentary which just  
show that you have not study, probably because you believe that if  
qualia are informal a theory about them has to be informal. But that  
is wrong. As much as we can make a crisp theory on fuzzy set, the "&  
p" arithmetical hypostases provides forma logics concerning informal,  
intuitive and non definable objects.













hich is irrelevant as far as actually authenticating sentience.

?
If comp is true, we will never ever know it.
We can test it only if it is false, by finding a physical phenomenon
which violates the comp consequences in physics.

We could know if comp is true by having someone be uploaded to a new  
brain and then uploaded back into their old brain.



Ah! So if my sun in law get his original carbon back, he would be  
conscious again? And even retrospectively so, as you agree his  
behavior remains invariant.








It seems like I just gave a perfectly legitimate, clear, and common  
sense challenge, to which your response has no relation. You're  
talking about remote and obscure technologies, but I'm using a  
simple example from ordinary human experience.



To talk with me you are using that very technology. It is hardly  
remote, and I guess you find it obscure because you don't study it.








But *you*, on the contrary, pretends to have a general argument, not
based on your theory,  that comp has to be false, or that my sun-law
has to be a doll. But I have not yet seen it. In each case you refer
implicitly or explicitly to your theory.

I just gave you the argument. Since a computer voice can say 'baby'  
without feeling like it has lips or a voicebox or lungs, then we  
should pres

Re: Climate models

[Stephen Paul King]

This paper is the best I have seen as a method to construct a real AI:
 http://www.alexwg.org/publications/PhysRevLett_110-168702.pdf

It is already built, it is just a matter of scaling it up But don't
assume that such AI will perceive the same physical world as we do!


On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:59 PM, meekerdb  wrote:

>  On 4/15/2014 8:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> Read what I wrote. Machine intelligence is not a question of brickology.
> Intelligence is not something which can be engineered.
> It is a question of exploration of some reality, and it is a question of
> us being sufficiently inetlligent to recognize intelligence here and there
> along that exploration.
>
>
> Are you saying we cannot build an intelligent machine?  Or are you saying
> we can only build a machine capable of learning to be intelligent?
>
> Brent
>
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Re: Video of VCR

[Craig Weinberg]

On Sunday, April 13, 2014 2:26:21 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> Craig illustrates well that consciousness is in the true part, not in the 
> representation, but you need both to have a local particular person, 
> relatively to some universal number or system.
>

I agree that a local person needs representation to localize their 
experience, but that does not mean that universal numbers are not also 
representations for conditioning the primordial (sensory) presence. Numbers 
are not creative, they are recursive. Numbers can extend the creativity of 
an existing substrate to the extent that the substrate is intrinsically 
creative.

Craig
 

>
> Now this made him into a trivial step zero stopper, and I can be tired of 
> the accumulation of word play, and the begging questions. 
>
> I appreciate the intervention. 
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Bruno Marchal 
> > wrote:
>
>
> On 13 Apr 2014, at 00:46, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> Can sense not be allowed to represent itself in your court of argument?
>
>
>
> That is a very good idea. 
>
> That is quite close to what happens with the definition by Theatetus of 
> (rational) knowledge by saying that is a (rational) belief (finitely 3p 
> describable) which is also true (something not definable in general, but 
> well known in many situations). That truth might not be computable (like in 
> self-multiplication), nor definable (like in Peano Arithmetic or by Löbian 
> machines), and that is why we use the truth (p) to represent itself, in the 
> definition of know(p) by []p & p.
>
> That describes a knower (it obeys S4), and explains the existence of the 
> fixed point, the locus where the beliefs are incorrigible, and correctly 
> so, from that necessarily existing point of view.  It explains the 
> existence of proposition which will be trivially true from the first person 
> perspective, yet impossible to communicate rationally to another machine.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> ...

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Re: Climate models

[meekerdb]

On 4/15/2014 8:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Read what I wrote. Machine intelligence is not a question of brickology. Intelligence is 
not something which can be engineered.
It is a question of exploration of some reality, and it is a question of us being 
sufficiently inetlligent to recognize intelligence here and there along that exploration.


Are you saying we cannot build an intelligent machine?  Or are you saying we can only 
build a machine capable of learning to be intelligent?


Brent

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Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[meekerdb]

On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:



An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from 
synesthesia
caused by psychadelics.

Telmo.


I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link?


Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's "stoned ape" 
theory, but I can't find anything...


That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language 
and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge.  I don't see how 
synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language.


Brent

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Re: Climate models

[meekerdb]

On 4/15/2014 1:59 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:


Poligamy is common when  big disparity of wealt, in low density coutries in 
harsh
conditions or in societies where violence is increasing Do you thing that  
these
conditions are in the aspirations of the civilized society?. The fact that 
we are
towards it.


I think that the aspiration of civilisation should be to allow humans to dream and 
transcend their current condition. I imagine a more advances civilisation being much 
less concerned with sexual norms.


Polygamy, freely chosen, is probably a better system than serial monogamy - which is what 
tends to be practiced by wealthy men in the west.  Robert Wright makes the case polygamy 
was banned in the west as a populist measure to ensure that almost all men could find a 
wife; which makes for a more stable society.  But it actually restricts women's choices 
and goes against biological evolution. He quotes Gloria Steinem as having said, "I'd 
rather be Robert Kennedy Jr's second wife than Pee Wee Herman's first."  Of course 
polygamy as actually practiced in cults and Afghanistan tends to be forced on very young 
girls, and not freely chosen.


Brent

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Re: Climate models

[Bruno Marchal]

On 15 Apr 2014, at 00:30, Alberto G. Corona wrote:





2014-04-14 17:59 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal :

On 14 Apr 2014, at 09:40, Alberto G. Corona wrote:





2014-04-12 19:42 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal :

No doubt on this for me. Affordable, and with good user's manuals.  
Most pregnant kids get pregnant before having has the sexual  
education school classes according to a recent statistics.


 For people like most of you, most of you also childless, that are  
disconnected from your human inner sense, it is necessary to talk  
about very basic chains of causations. People that believe that men  
are machines, behave like machines. I ´m very sorry for you.


You silence the inner sense, your nous that tell you: No. that is  
not right. This inner sense is the legacy of knowledge from  
millions of previous generations.  It is so important that it is  
immediate. It is necessary a lot of indoctrination to silence it.  
What is most urgent today is to remove all this indoctrination to  
recover this inner sense, the common sense, the Nous of the Greek  
Philosophers.



On the contrary, for abortion, both studies + listening to women  
makes me feel according to women an inner sense on that matter.


Same for machine, I show that self-relatively correct machine can't  
avoid the presence of a fist person point of view, with qualitative  
properties, and this when using only the most classical definition  
of knowledge.


It is your prejudice on the machines which makes you feel that such  
an hypothesis would be a reductionism.








But how to talk about this with men that want other people to be  
machines at the image and likeness of themselves?



On the contrary, I challenge the comp hypothesis. At first sight I  
refute it, but then I shows that the math illustrates it is too  
premature to say that it is refuted.






How to talk with machines that hate what makes humans above  
anything else? how to talk with people that despises its own  
humanity?. the only way is to talk in its own language.


Contraception reproduce most of the problems that I mentioned and  
produce other new. You, machines, contemplate the blind process of  
natural selection: machines have other machines, and these machines  
have been selected to maximize fitness, In a firt approximation  
fitness can be assimilated to the number and strength of the child  
machines produced.


There are two kind of machines 1 and 2.  both produce third copies  
of themselves.


Think a little bit: machine 1 and 2 programs main purpose, by the  
very nature of natural selection, to produce copies. If machine 1  
and machine 2 get crazy by a virus program that impede the creation  
of copies. When the main program find that there is no copies  
produced for whatever reason, it is logical that natural selection  
have produced the following  automatic strategies:


1) try to intensify the frequency f transfer of information  in  
order to try to make the reproduction mechanism to work.


 2) if this does not work,  machine 1 and 2 will transfer  
information with other  machines 2  and 1 respectively.  infidelity


3) finally the pair will break. the process will repeat  
indefinitely. 1 2 3 again and again.



Because the phase 1 of the life program of machine 1 and 2 is not  
sucessfully executed, both stay in this phase of the program, that  
I may call "adolescence" , characterized by a look for couples,  
trying to be attractive and try to monopolize as much machines of  
the other type as possible by means of pacific or violen means or  
whatever in the middle. and for living in the urgence of the  
present. This is realized in the form of ridculous display of  
power, false intelligence, egotism, violence, money and beauty,  
even at advanced age. But also by excessive exhibitions of  
sentimentalsm hate and whatever that permits the creation of gangs.


Phases 2 and 3 never get executed: let´s call it "adult  
responsiblity" and "devotion to past and future generations"  since  
natural selected algoritms of the machines must cover second and  
third level of fitness parameters by making sure that the society  
of machines work well and will work well for the future  
generations. If this is not covered with proper machine activities  
then no matter the number of machines produced in the next  
generation, if the society dies a few generations later, the  
machine fitness will be zero.


The net effect is uncertainty, violence, hypersexualization and  
unhappiness. And the destruction of the society, by the way. but  
because you are machines uncapable to acknowledge that, since you  
hate and repress what is human, yo can not agree. is your  
reputation as machines what is at stake



I think you confuse me with someone else. I am a logician. All what  
I say is that IF we are machine, then Plato's theology and the  
mystic is more rational than Aristotle and the materialists/ 
naturalist.







So you not only are machines, but a d

Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[Telmo Menezes]

On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Kim Jones  wrote:

>
> On 15 Apr 2014, at 8:41 pm, Telmo Menezes  wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Kim Jones wrote:
>
>> I'm especially fascinated by this theory that human consciousness got
>> going via the plant teachers in the first place.
>>
>
> An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated
> from synesthesia caused by psychadelics.
>
> Telmo.
>
>
> I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link?
>

Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's
"stoned ape" theory, but I can't find anything...

Telmo.


>
> Kim
>
>
>
>
>>  I was listening to Benjamin Britten's operatic version of "A Midsummer
>> Night's Dream" the other day and it's easy to see that Shakespeare was
>> fascinated by altered states of consciousness. Essentially that play is
>> about consciousness-altering via herbal intervention.
>>
>> Kim
>>
>> Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL
>>
>> Email:   kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
>>  kmjco...@icloud.com
>> Mobile: 0450 963 719
>> Phone:  02 93894239
>> Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com
>>
>>
>> *"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain*
>>
>>
>>
>> On 14 Apr 2014, at 9:04 pm, LizR  wrote:
>>
>> Cool.
>>
>>
>> On 14 April 2014 01:12, Bruno Marchal  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 12 Apr 2014, at 09:33, Kim Jones wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w#t=174
>>>
>>>
>>> Cannot see why it was banned. Well, OK - I can. But here it is anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nice.
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kim
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL
>>>
>>> Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
>>> Mobile:   0450 963 719
>>> Landline: 02 9389 4239
>>> Web:   http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com
>>>
>>> "Never let your schooling get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[Kim Jones]

> On 15 Apr 2014, at 8:41 pm, Telmo Menezes  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Kim Jones  wrote:
>> I'm especially fascinated by this theory that human consciousness got going 
>> via the plant teachers in the first place.
> 
> An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from 
> synesthesia caused by psychadelics.
> 
> Telmo.

I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link?

Kim


>  
>> I was listening to Benjamin Britten's operatic version of "A Midsummer 
>> Night's Dream" the other day and it's easy to see that Shakespeare was 
>> fascinated by altered states of consciousness. Essentially that play is 
>> about consciousness-altering via herbal intervention. 
>> 
>> Kim
>> 
>> Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL
>> 
>> Email:   kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
>>  kmjco...@icloud.com
>> Mobile: 0450 963 719
>> Phone:  02 93894239
>> Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com
>> 
>> 
>> "Never let your schooling get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> On 14 Apr 2014, at 9:04 pm, LizR  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Cool.
>>> 
>>> 
 On 14 April 2014 01:12, Bruno Marchal  wrote:
 
> On 12 Apr 2014, at 09:33, Kim Jones wrote:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w#t=174
> 
> 
> Cannot see why it was banned. Well, OK - I can. But here it is anyway.
 
 
 Nice.
 
 Bruno
 
 
> 
> Kim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL
> 
> Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
> Mobile:   0450 963 719
> Landline: 02 9389 4239
> Web:   http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com
> 
> "Never let your schooling get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
 
 
 
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>>> 
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Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[Telmo Menezes]

On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Kim Jones  wrote:

> I'm especially fascinated by this theory that human consciousness got
> going via the plant teachers in the first place.
>

An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated
from synesthesia caused by psychadelics.

Telmo.


> I was listening to Benjamin Britten's operatic version of "A Midsummer
> Night's Dream" the other day and it's easy to see that Shakespeare was
> fascinated by altered states of consciousness. Essentially that play is
> about consciousness-altering via herbal intervention.
>
> Kim
>
> Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL
>
> Email:   kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
>  kmjco...@icloud.com
> Mobile: 0450 963 719
> Phone:  02 93894239
> Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com
>
>
> *"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain*
>
>
>
> On 14 Apr 2014, at 9:04 pm, LizR  wrote:
>
> Cool.
>
>
> On 14 April 2014 01:12, Bruno Marchal  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 12 Apr 2014, at 09:33, Kim Jones wrote:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w#t=174
>>
>>
>> Cannot see why it was banned. Well, OK - I can. But here it is anyway.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nice.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>> Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL
>>
>> Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
>> Mobile:   0450 963 719
>> Landline: 02 9389 4239
>> Web:   http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com
>>
>> "Never let your schooling get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)

[Kim Jones]

I'm especially fascinated by this theory that human consciousness got going via 
the plant teachers in the first place. I was listening to Benjamin Britten's 
operatic version of "A Midsummer Night's Dream" the other day and it's easy to 
see that Shakespeare was fascinated by altered states of consciousness. 
Essentially that play is about consciousness-altering via herbal intervention. 

Kim

Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL

Email:   kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
 kmjco...@icloud.com
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"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain

 

> On 14 Apr 2014, at 9:04 pm, LizR  wrote:
> 
> Cool.
> 
> 
>> On 14 April 2014 01:12, Bruno Marchal  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 12 Apr 2014, at 09:33, Kim Jones wrote:
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w#t=174
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Cannot see why it was banned. Well, OK - I can. But here it is anyway.
>> 
>> 
>> Nice.
>> 
>> Bruno
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Kim
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL
>>> 
>>> Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
>>> Mobile:   0450 963 719
>>> Landline: 02 9389 4239
>>> Web:   http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com
>>> 
>>> "Never let your schooling get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: Climate models

[Telmo Menezes]

On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:44 AM, Russell Standish wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 01:51:22PM +0200, Telmo Menezes wrote:
> > Hi Alberto,
> >
>
> > So who knows what our biological program looks like or how complex it is?
> > There are compelling reasons to think that it is very complex indeed. For
> > example: a counter-intuitive empirical observation is that the propensity
> > to procreate diminishes with prosperity. This simple observation already
> > falsifies the algorithm you propose. It could be that we have several
> modes
> > of operation: under scarcity try to have as much offspring as possible,
> > betting that some will make it -- this would be survival mode. Under
> > prosperity, bet on a high likelihood of survival of any offspring, and
> > instead avoid diluting the resources, in an attempt of maximising the
> > quality of the partners that your offspring can find. All of these is
> pure
> > speculation of course -- just like yours.
> >
>
> Biologists call your "survival mode" r-strategists (for
> r-selection). The other mode, involving extensive investment in
> offspring are known as K-strategists.
>
> Humans are inveterate K-strategists. Rabbits (or cockroaches) are
> r-strategists.
>
> The r and the K come from the logistic equation
>
>dx/dt = rx(1-x/K)
>
> where r is the reproductive rate (net of births & deaths) and K is the
> environmental carrying capacity.
>

Nice. Thanks Russell!


>
> Cheers
>
> --
>
>
> 
> Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders
> Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
> University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>
>  Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret
>  (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html)
>
> 
>
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Re: Climate models

[Telmo Menezes]

On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

>
>
>
> 2014-04-14 13:51 GMT+02:00 Telmo Menezes :
>
> Hi Alberto,
>>
>> What in my reasoning steps is wrong?
>>>
>>
>> I find a number of problems with your reasoning:
>>
>> 1) You assume to know what the reproductive strategy of our species is.
>>
>> Darwinian evolution is a theory on how biological complexity arrises. It
>> does not predict neither a single nor necessarily a simple algorithm for
>> reproduction. It simply states that a certain genotype that leads to some
>> phenotype that is more likely to have viable offspring *in a certain
>> environment* is more likely to be propagated into the future. In the *in a
>> certain environment* clause resides a universe of complexity, which is also
>> self-referential because the organisms expressed by the genotype can alter
>> the environment, constantly changing the fitness function.
>>
>>
> No. living beings do not optimize fitness.
>

I didn't say that. What I said is that their interaction with the
environment changes the fitness function and this tends to increase
complexity.


> they execute adaptations. if the fitness function changes, this does no
> change the behavour unless the change has been produced on the past and it
> has developped an adaptation to change. For example it is true that people,
> or for the matter many animals try to reproduce as fast and with as much
> number as possible when in uncertainty conditions and the oppossite: in a
> ambient of security they are more selective. That is because both ambients
> have existed in the past. An we developped dlexible strategies. Here enter
> the prosperity variable that you mention below.
>
> but what change that? these are second or third derivates that do not
> change the whole picture.
>

It makes it very hard to reason about what is in line or not with the
"reproductive program". Likely, homosexuality, abortions and the decision
of some people to not have children are actually part of the program.


>
>
>
>> So who knows what our biological program looks like or how complex it is?
>> There are compelling reasons to think that it is very complex indeed. For
>> example: a counter-intuitive empirical observation is that the propensity
>> to procreate diminishes with prosperity. This simple observation already
>> falsifies the algorithm you propose. It could be that we have several modes
>> of operation: under scarcity try to have as much offspring as possible,
>> betting that some will make it -- this would be survival mode. Under
>> prosperity, bet on a high likelihood of survival of any offspring, and
>> instead avoid diluting the resources, in an attempt of maximising the
>> quality of the partners that your offspring can find. All of these is pure
>> speculation of course -- just like yours.
>>
>> Then, we also know that humans have employed different reproductive
>> strategies throughout the ages. Monogamy, or serial monogamy, or the
>> concept of "cheating" (all essential to your theory), seems to be a very
>> recent invention. More tellingly, changes in the social norms associated
>> with sex and reproduction seem to come with technological revolutions. If
>> we look for the "nous", then it would make more sense to learn from
>> pre-agriculture tribes (99.whatever% of our History as Humans), instead of
>> taking our clues from the catholic church. In these tribes it was very
>> common for a woman to be inseminated by several men. Then, they would all
>> believe to be fathers, and take care of the children collectively. It was
>> also very common to trade sex for resources. Women would reward hunters
>> with sex if they brought them some meat.
>>
>
> That is the strategy of the whore that is the less desirable for a woman.
> For obvious reasons. it happens when women are in very bad conditions of
> insecurity.
>

You generalise too much. It is horrible when women are forced into
prostitution, of course, but the general shame associated with it is a
cultural norm. Some cultures have it, some don't. I know a social worker
who interacted with many prostitutes. Many of them are not depressed,
addicted or doing anything against their will. They like the idea of making
a lot of money, buying a nice house and not having to work for decades in a
boring job.


>
> Poligamy is common when  big disparity of wealt, in low density coutries
> in harsh conditions or in societies where violence is increasing Do you
> thing that  these conditions are in the aspirations of the civilized
> society?. The fact that we are towards it.
>

I think that the aspiration of civilisation should be to allow humans to
dream and transcend their current condition. I imagine a more advances
civilisation being much less concerned with sexual norms.


>
>> 2) You use evolutionary explanations selectively
>>
>> You claim that we are being brainwashed into not reproducing. Surely the
>> brainwashers are also following their own biological programs? So they are

Re: Climate models

[LizR]

Thank you. Could you now please state the arguments plainly, so I can see
what they actually are, shorn of the arrogance and disrespect.

Also I would appreciate a considered response to my arguments.

---Liz's arguments, restated for your convenience---

On top of avoiding suffering for me and the potential child, there is also
the fact that it is natural for females to spontaneously abort unwanted
offspring. It happens all the time in the animal kingdom, including humans.

Men don't like the idea that women might have control over their own
bodies, they want passive incubators who will just say "yes master, I will
spread your genes" - that's the inner voice Alberto apparently wants me to
have and listen to, but I actually have another one.

I *thought* I was listening to my inner voice, I just couldn't marshal my
thoughts sufficiently to put it into words earlier. It wasn't the "yes
master" voice that Alberto is talking about, the voice that says "hop into
bed with this plausible rogue then suffer the consequences when he leaves
you holding the baby."

I have another, more sensible, inner voice, also the product of millions of
years of evolution, that says "Well, he's gone and left me up the duff and
in the lurch... but I can do better than this. Rather than ruin my life and
the life of the person this bunch of cells will grow into if I let it,
instead I'm going to cut my losses and try again."

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Re: Climate models

[Alberto G. Corona]

Bruno, Litz and everyone:

I want to say sorry form muy arrogance and disrespect. The arguments
remain.
El 15/04/2014 00:37, "Alberto G. Corona"  escribió:

>
>
>
> 2014-04-15 0:25 GMT+02:00 LizR :
>
>> On 15 April 2014 03:59, Bruno Marchal  wrote:
>>
>>> On 14 Apr 2014, at 09:40, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>>>
>>> 2014-04-12 19:42 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal :
>>>

  No doubt on this for me. Affordable, and with good user's manuals.
 Most pregnant kids get pregnant before having has the sexual education
 school classes according to a recent statistics.

  For people like most of you, most of you also childless, that are
>>> disconnected from your human inner sense, it is necessary to talk about
>>> very basic chains of causations. People that believe that men are machines,
>>> behave like machines. I ´m very sorry for you.
>>>
>>> You silence the inner sense, your nous that tell you: No. that is not
>>> right. This inner sense is the legacy of knowledge from millions of
>>> previous generations.  It is so important that it is immediate. It is
>>> necessary a lot of indoctrination to silence it. What is most urgent today
>>> is to remove all this indoctrination to recover this inner sense, the
>>> common sense, the Nous of the Greek Philosophers.
>>>
>>> On the contrary, for abortion, both studies + listening to women makes
>>> me feel according to women an inner sense on that matter.
>>>
>>> Wow I forgot this argument.
> With arguments so ellaborated and complete like this I can say nothing
> against.
>
> Note for machines: This is what we the humans call sarcasm.
>

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