Re: Exact Theology was:Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
Bruno, sorry for taking it jokingly (ref: Steinhart): Latest research revealed that Shakespeare's oeuvre was not written by William Shakespeare, but by quite another man named William Shakespeare. John From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-l...@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 4:57:17 AM Subject: Re: Exact Theology was:Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5 Ah bravo Günther, now I am depressing :( I don't succeed in finding my Steinhart book. I don't either find the book on the net, and I begin to doubt it is a book by the same Steinhart. I have some doubt that my Steinhart has Eric as first name. I remember only that the book was taking Pythagorus very seriously, which is rare in the literature. Once I find the information, I will let you know. Your Steinhart seems interesting too (and open to Pythagorus), like Leslie is interesting too, btw. Of course those people seems not to be aware of all the progress in the field ... Have a good day, Bruno Le 11-janv.-09, à 16:54, Günther Greindl a écrit : Which one did you have? Was it good? (I only know his papers) Cheers, Günther Bruno Marchal wrote: Gosh, you make me realize that I have lost my book by Steinhart. . I did appreciated it some time ago. Thanks for the references. Best, Bruno On 09 Jan 2009, at 21:26, Günther Greindl wrote: Hello, My domain is theology. scientific and thus agnostic theology. I specialized my self in Machine's theology. Or Human's theology once assuming comp. The UDA shows (or should show) that physics is a branch of theology, so that the AUDA makes Machine's theology experimentally refutable. Will machines go to paradise? Some related work: http://www.ericsteinhart.com/abstracts.html Especially: Steinhart, E. (2004) Pantheism and current ontology. Religious Studies 40 (1), 1 - 18. ABSTRACT: Pantheism claims: (1) there exists an all-inclusive unity; and (2) that unity is divine. I review three current and scientifically viable ontologies to see how pantheism can be developed in each. They are: (1) materialism; (2) platonism; and (3) class-theoretic pythagoreanism. I show how each ontology has an all-inclusive unity. I check the degree to which that unity is: eternal; infinite; complex; necessary; plentiful; self-representative; holy. I show how each ontology solves the problem of evil (its theodicy) and provides for salvation (its soteriology). I conclude that platonism and pythagoreanism have the most divine all-inclusive unities. They support sophisticated contemporary pantheisms. and Steinhart, E. (2003) Supermachines and superminds. Minds and Machines 13 (1), 155 - 186. ABSTRACT: If the computational theory of mind is right, then minds are realized by computers. There is an ordered complexity hierarchy of computers. Some finite state machines realize finitely complex minds; some Turing machines realize potentially infinitely complex minds. There are many logically possible computers whose powers exceed the Church-Turing limit (e.g. accelerating Turing machines). Some of these supermachines realize superminds. Superminds perform cognitive supertasks. Their thoughts are formed in infinitary languages. They perceive and manipulate the infinite detail of fractal objects. They have infinitely complex bodies. Transfinite games anchor their social relations. Especially the first paper (concerning Pythagorenaism) is interesting. Best Wishes, Günther http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- Günther Greindl Department of Philosophy of Science University of Vienna guenther.grei...@univie.ac.at Blog: http://www.complexitystudies.org/ Thesis: http://www.complexitystudies.org/proposal/ http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Exact Theology was:Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
Gosh, you make me realize that I have lost my book by Steinhart. . I did appreciated it some time ago. Thanks for the references. Best, Bruno On 09 Jan 2009, at 21:26, Günther Greindl wrote: Hello, My domain is theology. scientific and thus agnostic theology. I specialized my self in Machine's theology. Or Human's theology once assuming comp. The UDA shows (or should show) that physics is a branch of theology, so that the AUDA makes Machine's theology experimentally refutable. Will machines go to paradise? Some related work: http://www.ericsteinhart.com/abstracts.html Especially: Steinhart, E. (2004) Pantheism and current ontology. Religious Studies 40 (1), 1 - 18. ABSTRACT: Pantheism claims: (1) there exists an all-inclusive unity; and (2) that unity is divine. I review three current and scientifically viable ontologies to see how pantheism can be developed in each. They are: (1) materialism; (2) platonism; and (3) class-theoretic pythagoreanism. I show how each ontology has an all-inclusive unity. I check the degree to which that unity is: eternal; infinite; complex; necessary; plentiful; self-representative; holy. I show how each ontology solves the problem of evil (its theodicy) and provides for salvation (its soteriology). I conclude that platonism and pythagoreanism have the most divine all-inclusive unities. They support sophisticated contemporary pantheisms. and Steinhart, E. (2003) Supermachines and superminds. Minds and Machines 13 (1), 155 - 186. ABSTRACT: If the computational theory of mind is right, then minds are realized by computers. There is an ordered complexity hierarchy of computers. Some finite state machines realize finitely complex minds; some Turing machines realize potentially infinitely complex minds. There are many logically possible computers whose powers exceed the Church-Turing limit (e.g. accelerating Turing machines). Some of these supermachines realize superminds. Superminds perform cognitive supertasks. Their thoughts are formed in infinitary languages. They perceive and manipulate the infinite detail of fractal objects. They have infinitely complex bodies. Transfinite games anchor their social relations. Especially the first paper (concerning Pythagorenaism) is interesting. Best Wishes, Günther http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
On 10 Jan 2009, at 02:26, Kim Jones wrote: On 10/01/2009, at 5:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I admire too. Kim is courageous. Well, for the tenacity we will see :) Gee thanks Doctor! I'll try not disappoint you. At the moment I am devoting an egregious amount of time to searching for employment as my ability to sit and cogitate on Correct Machine Theology will be severely curtailed if I don't find a job soon. Life is not easy. Wish you the best. In the meantime, is there any chance of a bus slogan campaign: There Probably Is a Universal Dovetailer Computing All of Reality. Too much technical and ambiguous imo. The danger with comp is that a slight misunderstanding of it can transform it into a reductionism or even a nihilism. Now, All Of You Theologians, Start Worrying and Start Studying Quantum Physics, Computationalism and Modal Logic. Modal logic is generally considered as an invention of theologian. It has been a practical tool for religious metaphysics among Middle-Age theologians, especially in Middle East. You could as well have said Scientists, Start Worrying to have to ReStart the Study of Plato's Theology. But I am not sure we should start worry people with a subject which can so easily give too much metaphysical vertigo. Take it easy, Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Exact Theology was:Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
Which one did you have? Was it good? (I only know his papers) Cheers, Günther Bruno Marchal wrote: Gosh, you make me realize that I have lost my book by Steinhart. . I did appreciated it some time ago. Thanks for the references. Best, Bruno On 09 Jan 2009, at 21:26, Günther Greindl wrote: Hello, My domain is theology. scientific and thus agnostic theology. I specialized my self in Machine's theology. Or Human's theology once assuming comp. The UDA shows (or should show) that physics is a branch of theology, so that the AUDA makes Machine's theology experimentally refutable. Will machines go to paradise? Some related work: http://www.ericsteinhart.com/abstracts.html Especially: Steinhart, E. (2004) Pantheism and current ontology. Religious Studies 40 (1), 1 - 18. ABSTRACT: Pantheism claims: (1) there exists an all-inclusive unity; and (2) that unity is divine. I review three current and scientifically viable ontologies to see how pantheism can be developed in each. They are: (1) materialism; (2) platonism; and (3) class-theoretic pythagoreanism. I show how each ontology has an all-inclusive unity. I check the degree to which that unity is: eternal; infinite; complex; necessary; plentiful; self-representative; holy. I show how each ontology solves the problem of evil (its theodicy) and provides for salvation (its soteriology). I conclude that platonism and pythagoreanism have the most divine all-inclusive unities. They support sophisticated contemporary pantheisms. and Steinhart, E. (2003) Supermachines and superminds. Minds and Machines 13 (1), 155 - 186. ABSTRACT: If the computational theory of mind is right, then minds are realized by computers. There is an ordered complexity hierarchy of computers. Some finite state machines realize finitely complex minds; some Turing machines realize potentially infinitely complex minds. There are many logically possible computers whose powers exceed the Church-Turing limit (e.g. accelerating Turing machines). Some of these supermachines realize superminds. Superminds perform cognitive supertasks. Their thoughts are formed in infinitary languages. They perceive and manipulate the infinite detail of fractal objects. They have infinitely complex bodies. Transfinite games anchor their social relations. Especially the first paper (concerning Pythagorenaism) is interesting. Best Wishes, Günther http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- Günther Greindl Department of Philosophy of Science University of Vienna guenther.grei...@univie.ac.at Blog: http://www.complexitystudies.org/ Thesis: http://www.complexitystudies.org/proposal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Exact Theology was:Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
Steinhardt is supposed to get his book Infinite Flesh published sometime soon. His premise is similar to Philosopher, John Leslie, save that Steinhardt see clones of ourselves being re-born in alternate universes, though the each incarnation is improved over the previous. Leslie is more linear (as am I) where as the deceased continue on, in a pantheistic-spinoza- kind of way, as part of an infinite series of divine minds. Steinhardt teaches at Patterson University in New Jersey, and Leslie retired from University of Guelph in Canada, is now at the University of Vancouver in British Columbia, Canada. In both cases, I would surmise, that both scholars, would agreee that, if the Machines are sufficiently, complex; they also can join the humans in the great whatever. I am guessing that if a transhumanist tech breakthrough would extend human existence, life, enjoyment, they too, would choose to stick around. Mitch In a message dated 1/9/2009 3:29:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, guenther.grei...@gmail.com writes: Hello, My domain is theology. scientific and thus agnostic theology. I specialized my self in Machine's theology. Or Human's theology once assuming comp. The UDA shows (or should show) that physics is a branch of theology, so that the AUDA makes Machine's theology experimentally refutable. Will machines go to paradise? Some related work: http://www.ericsteinhart.com/abstracts.html Especially: Steinhart, E. (2004) Pantheism and current ontology. Religious Studies 40 (1), 1 - 18. ABSTRACT: Pantheism claims: (1) there exists an all-inclusive unity; and (2) that unity is divine. I review three current and scientifically viable ontologies to see how pantheism can be developed in each. They are: (1) materialism; (2) platonism; and (3) class-theoretic pythagoreanism. I show how each ontology has an all-inclusive unity. I check the degree to which that unity is: eternal; infinite; complex; necessary; plentiful; self-representative; holy. I show how each ontology solves the problem of evil (its theodicy) and provides for salvation (its soteriology). I conclude that platonism and pythagoreanism have the most divine all-inclusive unities. They support sophisticated contemporary pantheisms. and Steinhart, E. (2003) Supermachines and superminds. Minds and Machines 13 (1), 155 - 186. ABSTRACT: If the computational theory of mind is right, then minds are realized by computers. There is an ordered complexity hierarchy of computers. Some finite state machines realize finitely complex minds; some Turing machines realize potentially infinitely complex minds. There are many logically possible computers whose powers exceed the Church-Turing limit (e.g. accelerating Turing machines). Some of these supermachines realize superminds. Superminds perform cognitive supertasks. Their thoughts are formed in infinitary languages. They perceive and manipulate the infinite detail of fractal objects. They have infinitely complex bodies. Transfinite games anchor their social relations. Especially the first paper (concerning Pythagorenaism) is interesting. Best Wishes, Günther **New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://news.aol.com?ncid=emlcntusnews0002) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
Brent, there are misunderstood phenomena and epistemologically underdeveloped explanations over the past 10,000 years - plus conclusion (upon conlusions)^n - quantizations with and without zero (14th c. AD) to develop in our conventional scientific view the figment Bruno puts into - called The Physical World (view). Within this there is 'physics' as a conventional science. Never mind that beyond its 101 there are included QM etc. considered 'less' conventional - still within the figment. Clicking in your kind post on the *DrChinese.com* ref, you may find more formulated trains than I care to follow, with a --- *Conclusion *QM predicts an expectation value for cases [2] and [7] of -.1036, which is less than 0 and seemingly absurd. However, this is born out by actual experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments, in defiance of common sense! This result means that the seemingly reasonable assumption (the Realistic view) that we started with in *c.* above is invalid. This is easily explained in QM because cases [2] and [7] are *not* real, they are literally imaginary. (Note that X, Y and Z can be separately tested anywhere in the world at any time and you still end up with the same conclusion once you combine the results per *h.* above.) --- you may follow the critical ways what I did not. Many of the posts on this list are transcending limitations of the * conventionally* *physical world* figment (although many still use elements taken from there). Just try to roll back how many levels of concludings you have to pass into arriving at a 'pair of entangled photons diverted into opposite dir.' or other conditions of 'experiments' and you will not deny the Gedankenexperiment status of EPR with its conclusions, all experiments with supportive (Aspect?) and criticizing (Bell? Dr.Chinese?) ideas in spite of the success in our present technology based on such conventional science and human ingenuity. I read Bell and Aspect 2 decades ago and thanks for the http://www-ece.rice.edu/~kono/ELEC565/Aspect_Nature.pdf for a refresher. John M On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 12:42 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote: John Mikes wrote: Brent wrote: ...But the EPR experiments show that this can only hold if the influence of the rest of the world is non-local (i.e. faster than light) and hence inconsistent with relativity... EPR is a thought-experiment, constructed (designed) to make a point. How can one use such artifact as 'evidence' that shows...? Because it has been performed in various ways and is not just a thought experiment. http://www.drchinese.com/David/EPR_Bell_Aspect.htm Brent Furthermore: relativity is a (genius) human idea, based on the figment of the 'physical world' (assumption). Whether something is consistent or inconsistent with it, is also no 'proof' to be considered in dubious theories (like the conventional - or not so conventional - physics). (Anyway this side-line was far from 'random' or 'probabiliyt' the focus of my post.) John M On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: John Mikes wrote: Dear Bruno, I decided so many times not to reflect to the esoteric sci-fi assumptions (thought experiments?) on this list - about situations beyond common sense, their use as templates for consequences. Now, however, I can't control my 'mouse' - in random and probabilistics. * Bruno quotes in -- lines, like the starting proposition: It is because an event can be random or probabilistic... * ...the perfect throwing of the perfect coin gives an random experience with a probability measure HEAD = 1/2, TAIL = 1/2 Wrong. A PERFECT coin PERFECTLY thrown gives ALWAYS either HEAD or TAIL. It is those imperfections unobserved(?) that makes the difference in the outcome to 50-50. The only difference that really counts is the starting condition - whether it is thrown head or tail UP. Interestingly, the statistician Persis Diaconis can flip a coin so that it lands heads or tails as he chooses. Many professional magicians can do it to. To your subsequent 3 questions the answer is YES - depending how you identify 'probability'. (I don't). To your evaluating paragraph Fair Enough: fair enough. That makes my point. * The experiments with sleeping in the room with whiskey are above my head (=my common sense). The Einstein conclusions show that even a big genius like him cannot cope with epistemic enrichment coming AFTER his time. (Which extends into the contemporary novelties as well?!) ...Einstein missed
Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
Hi John, I decided so many times not to reflect to the esoteric sci-fi assumptions (thought experiments?) on this list - about situations beyond common sense, their use as templates for consequences. It is as you wish, but it is my way to question the humans, through UDA. Then the number is my way to question the machine, through AUDA. You seem to have a problem with thought experiences and with numbers, which prevent you to follow both path. Don't worry, because perhaps you have your own path and interest and I know we agree on some fundamental issue. The only thing which sometimes worries me is when it looks you are sure that machine or number are dumb, which for me illustrates a common human prejudice (the feeling superior ...) Now, however, I can't control my 'mouse' - in random and probabilistics. * Bruno quotes in -- lines, like the starting proposition: It is because an event can be random or probabilistic... * ...the perfect throwing of the perfect coin gives an random experience with a probability measure HEAD = 1/2, TAIL = 1/2 Wrong. A PERFECT coin PERFECTLY thrown gives ALWAYS either HEAD or TAIL. It is those imperfections unobserved(?) that makes the difference in the outcome to 50-50. The only difference that really counts is the starting condition - whether it is thrown head or tail UP. It seems to me that I agree with you. Let me give you my precise definition of a perfect throw of a dice. You know, as Brent Meeker recall nowadays there are magician which can cheat on those things in extreme brilliant ways. So I will accept that a thrown of coin is perfect (relatively to the Probability 1/2) if the coin is enclosed in a velvet box and the box is shaken during 5 days by 500 monkeys themselves taken randomly among 10 monkeys, and this when God is not looking (to prevent God for being the magician accomplice, who knows ...). To your subsequent 3 questions the answer is YES - depending how you identify 'probability'. (I don't). To your evaluating paragraph Fair Enough: fair enough. That makes my point. * The experiments with sleeping in the room with whiskey are above my head (=my common sense). The Einstein conclusions show that even a big genius like him cannot cope with epistemic enrichment coming AFTER his time. Einstein was alas still a bit brainwashed by Aristotle, imo. You know that I think that the Platonists, and especially Plotinus, has well coped with the epistemic enrichment coming after him, and I believe, after us (Lewis Carroll too I think, actually). And I would so much be pleased to let you guess that the little Lobian machine can cope a so big epistemic enrichment too... Theology has to come back in Academy, I think, if only we want some human human science ... I'm afraid that science has been interrupted in 529. The enlightnment period has only aggravated the gap between human science and exact science. This could explain in part the inhuman mess on the planet. (Which extends into the contemporary novelties as well?!) ...Einstein missed comp by its conventionalist math blindness perhaps, togethet with the fact that he was not interested in computer science. ... I admire Kim's scientific tenacity to absorb your 'explanations' to the level of asking resonable questions. I admire too. Kim is courageous. Well, for the tenacity we will see :) I could not spend so much time to submerge myself - and - maybe I am further away from your domain to do so. My domain is theology. scientific and thus agnostic theology. I specialized my self in Machine's theology. Or Human's theology once assuming comp. The UDA shows (or should show) that physics is a branch of theology, so that the AUDA makes Machine's theology experimentally refutable. Will machines go to paradise? As a scientist I *know* nothing, but I can appreciate some theories. Theories are always hypotheses, waiting to be changed or reinterpreted. Thanks for the (*) added post scriptum, I missed it so far. One word of how I feel about probability: In the conventional (scientific/math) view we consider model domains for our observation (interest). Within such domain we 'count' the item in question (that is statistical) irrespective of occurrences beyond the boundaries of that domain. The next occurrence in the future history is undecided from a knowledge of the domain's past history in our best effort: we can consider only the 'stuff' limited into our model, cannot include effects from 'the rest of the world', so we cannot tell a 'probability' of the 'next' occurrence at all. Ominscient is different. I am not. I am not sure I understand, given that probability is a measure of our ignorance (from us to God, depending on the domain indeed). In deterministic theories like comp or Everett QM (the Many-World), all computable probabilities
Exact Theology was:Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
Hello, My domain is theology. scientific and thus agnostic theology. I specialized my self in Machine's theology. Or Human's theology once assuming comp. The UDA shows (or should show) that physics is a branch of theology, so that the AUDA makes Machine's theology experimentally refutable. Will machines go to paradise? Some related work: http://www.ericsteinhart.com/abstracts.html Especially: Steinhart, E. (2004) Pantheism and current ontology. Religious Studies 40 (1), 1 - 18. ABSTRACT: Pantheism claims: (1) there exists an all-inclusive unity; and (2) that unity is divine. I review three current and scientifically viable ontologies to see how pantheism can be developed in each. They are: (1) materialism; (2) platonism; and (3) class-theoretic pythagoreanism. I show how each ontology has an all-inclusive unity. I check the degree to which that unity is: eternal; infinite; complex; necessary; plentiful; self-representative; holy. I show how each ontology solves the problem of evil (its theodicy) and provides for salvation (its soteriology). I conclude that platonism and pythagoreanism have the most divine all-inclusive unities. They support sophisticated contemporary pantheisms. and Steinhart, E. (2003) Supermachines and superminds. Minds and Machines 13 (1), 155 - 186. ABSTRACT: If the computational theory of mind is right, then minds are realized by computers. There is an ordered complexity hierarchy of computers. Some finite state machines realize finitely complex minds; some Turing machines realize potentially infinitely complex minds. There are many logically possible computers whose powers exceed the Church-Turing limit (e.g. accelerating Turing machines). Some of these supermachines realize superminds. Superminds perform cognitive supertasks. Their thoughts are formed in infinitary languages. They perceive and manipulate the infinite detail of fractal objects. They have infinitely complex bodies. Transfinite games anchor their social relations. Especially the first paper (concerning Pythagorenaism) is interesting. Best Wishes, Günther --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
Brent wrote: ...But the EPR experiments show that this can only hold if the influence of the rest of the world is non-local (i.e. faster than light) and hence inconsistent with relativity... EPR is a thought-experiment, constructed (designed) to make a point. How can one use such artifact as 'evidence' that shows...? Furthermore: relativity is a (genius) human idea, based on the figment of the 'physical world' (assumption). Whether something is consistent or inconsistent with it, is also no 'proof' to be considered in dubious theories (like the conventional - or not so conventional - physics). (Anyway this side-line was far from 'random' or 'probabiliyt' the focus of my post.) John M On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote: John Mikes wrote: Dear Bruno, I decided so many times not to reflect to the esoteric sci-fi assumptions (thought experiments?) on this list - about situations beyond common sense, their use as templates for consequences. Now, however, I can't control my 'mouse' - in random and probabilistics. * Bruno quotes in -- lines, like the starting proposition: It is because an event can be random or probabilistic... * ...the perfect throwing of the perfect coin gives an random experience with a probability measure HEAD = 1/2, TAIL = 1/2 Wrong. A PERFECT coin PERFECTLY thrown gives ALWAYS either HEAD or TAIL. It is those imperfections unobserved(?) that makes the difference in the outcome to 50-50. The only difference that really counts is the starting condition - whether it is thrown head or tail UP. Interestingly, the statistician Persis Diaconis can flip a coin so that it lands heads or tails as he chooses. Many professional magicians can do it to. To your subsequent 3 questions the answer is YES - depending how you identify 'probability'. (I don't). To your evaluating paragraph Fair Enough: fair enough. That makes my point. * The experiments with sleeping in the room with whiskey are above my head (=my common sense). The Einstein conclusions show that even a big genius like him cannot cope with epistemic enrichment coming AFTER his time. (Which extends into the contemporary novelties as well?!) ...Einstein missed comp by its conventionalist math blindness perhaps, togethet with the fact that he was not interested in computer science. ... I admire Kim's scientific tenacity to absorb your 'explanations' to the level of asking resonable questions. I could not spend so much time to submerge myself - and - maybe I am further away from your domain to do so. Thanks for the (*) added post scriptum, I missed it so far. One word of how I feel about probability: In the conventional (scientific/math) view we consider model domains for our observation (interest). Within such domain we 'count' the item in question (that is statistical) irrespective of occurrences beyond the boundaries of that domain. The next occurrence in the future history is undecided from a knowledge of the domain's past history in our best effort: we can consider only the 'stuff' limited into our model, cannot include effects from 'the rest of the world', so we cannot tell a 'probability' of the 'next' occurrence at all. Ominscient is different. I am not. I think it is an open question whether there is inherent randomness in quantum mechanics. In Bohmian QM the randomness comes from ignorance of the rest of the world. But the EPR experiments show that this can only hold if the influence of the rest of the world is non-local (i.e. faster than light) and hence inconsistent with relativity. Brent --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
John, Brent, John said: EPR is a thought-experiment, constructed (designed) to make a point. How can one use such artifact as 'evidence' that shows...? Aspect Et Al tested it ages ago, see for instance here: http://www-ece.rice.edu/~kono/ELEC565/Aspect_Nature.pdf Brent said: But the EPR experiments show that this can only hold if the influence of the rest of the world is non-local (i.e. faster than light) and hence inconsistent with relativity. QM lives well with special relativity (the physics community speaks of peaceful coexistence) due to the fact that non-local effects can not be used for signalling. QM and Relativity only clash at the level of General Relativity (gravity)- at Black Holes and other Singularities (Big Bang). Cheers, Günther --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
On 10/01/2009, at 5:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I admire too. Kim is courageous. Well, for the tenacity we will see :) Gee thanks Doctor! I'll try not disappoint you. At the moment I am devoting an egregious amount of time to searching for employment as my ability to sit and cogitate on Correct Machine Theology will be severely curtailed if I don't find a job soon. In the meantime, is there any chance of a bus slogan campaign: There Probably Is a Universal Dovetailer Computing All of Reality. Now, All Of You Theologians, Start Worrying and Start Studying Quantum Physics, Computationalism and Modal Logic. Perhaps we can get it down to something a bit shorter? cheers, Kim --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
John Mikes wrote: Brent wrote: ...But the EPR experiments show that this can only hold if the influence of the rest of the world is non-local (i.e. faster than light) and hence inconsistent with relativity... EPR is a thought-experiment, constructed (designed) to make a point. How can one use such artifact as 'evidence' that shows...? Because it has been performed in various ways and is not just a thought experiment. http://www.drchinese.com/David/EPR_Bell_Aspect.htm Brent Furthermore: relativity is a (genius) human idea, based on the figment of the 'physical world' (assumption). Whether something is consistent or inconsistent with it, is also no 'proof' to be considered in dubious theories (like the conventional - or not so conventional - physics). (Anyway this side-line was far from 'random' or 'probabiliyt' the focus of my post.) John M On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: John Mikes wrote: Dear Bruno, I decided so many times not to reflect to the esoteric sci-fi assumptions (thought experiments?) on this list - about situations beyond common sense, their use as templates for consequences. Now, however, I can't control my 'mouse' - in random and probabilistics. * Bruno quotes in -- lines, like the starting proposition: It is because an event can be random or probabilistic... * ...the perfect throwing of the perfect coin gives an random experience with a probability measure HEAD = 1/2, TAIL = 1/2 Wrong. A PERFECT coin PERFECTLY thrown gives ALWAYS either HEAD or TAIL. It is those imperfections unobserved(?) that makes the difference in the outcome to 50-50. The only difference that really counts is the starting condition - whether it is thrown head or tail UP. Interestingly, the statistician Persis Diaconis can flip a coin so that it lands heads or tails as he chooses. Many professional magicians can do it to. To your subsequent 3 questions the answer is YES - depending how you identify 'probability'. (I don't). To your evaluating paragraph Fair Enough: fair enough. That makes my point. * The experiments with sleeping in the room with whiskey are above my head (=my common sense). The Einstein conclusions show that even a big genius like him cannot cope with epistemic enrichment coming AFTER his time. (Which extends into the contemporary novelties as well?!) ...Einstein missed comp by its conventionalist math blindness perhaps, togethet with the fact that he was not interested in computer science. ... I admire Kim's scientific tenacity to absorb your 'explanations' to the level of asking resonable questions. I could not spend so much time to submerge myself - and - maybe I am further away from your domain to do so. Thanks for the (*) added post scriptum, I missed it so far. One word of how I feel about probability: In the conventional (scientific/math) view we consider model domains for our observation (interest). Within such domain we 'count' the item in question (that is statistical) irrespective of occurrences beyond the boundaries of that domain. The next occurrence in the future history is undecided from a knowledge of the domain's past history in our best effort: we can consider only the 'stuff' limited into our model, cannot include effects from 'the rest of the world', so we cannot tell a 'probability' of the 'next' occurrence at all. Ominscient is different. I am not. I think it is an open question whether there is inherent randomness in quantum mechanics. In Bohmian QM the randomness comes from ignorance of the rest of the world. But the EPR experiments show that this can only hold if the influence of the rest of the world is non-local (i.e. faster than light) and hence inconsistent with relativity. Brent --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
Dear Bruno, I decided so many times not to reflect to the esoteric sci-fi assumptions (thought experiments?) on this list - about situations beyond common sense, their use as templates for consequences. Now, however, I can't control my 'mouse' - in random and probabilistics. * Bruno quotes in -- lines, like the starting proposition: It is because an event can be random or probabilistic... * ...the perfect throwing of the perfect coin gives an random experience with a probability measure HEAD = 1/2, TAIL = 1/2 Wrong. A PERFECT coin PERFECTLY thrown gives ALWAYS either HEAD or TAIL. It is those imperfections unobserved(?) that makes the difference in the outcome to 50-50. The only difference that really counts is the starting condition - whether it is thrown head or tail UP. To your subsequent 3 questions the answer is YES - depending how you identify 'probability'. (I don't). To your evaluating paragraph Fair Enough: fair enough. That makes my point. * The experiments with sleeping in the room with whiskey are above my head (=my common sense). The Einstein conclusions show that even a big genius like him cannot cope with epistemic enrichment coming AFTER his time. (Which extends into the contemporary novelties as well?!) ...Einstein missed comp by its conventionalist math blindness perhaps, togethet with the fact that he was not interested in computer science. ... I admire Kim's scientific tenacity to absorb your 'explanations' to the level of asking resonable questions. I could not spend so much time to submerge myself - and - maybe I am further away from your domain to do so. Thanks for the (*) added post scriptum, I missed it so far. One word of how I feel about probability: In the conventional (scientific/math) view we consider model domains for our observation (interest). Within such domain we 'count' the item in question (that is statistical) irrespective of occurrences beyond the boundaries of that domain. The next occurrence in the future history is undecided from a knowledge of the domain's past history in our best effort: we can consider only the 'stuff' limited into our model, cannot include effects from 'the rest of the world', so we cannot tell a 'probability' of the 'next' occurrence at all. Ominscient is different. I am not. Thanks for an interesting reading. John M On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:48 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 03 Jan 2009, at 12:59, Kim Jones wrote: Bruno, In this step, one of me experiences (or actually does not experience) the delay prior to reconstitution. In Step 2, it was proven to me that I cannot know that any extra time (other than the 4 minutes necessary transmission interval) has elapsed between my annihilation and reconstitution on Mars. The same thing will now happen to one of me in the duplication-plus-delay in Step 4. Essentially, Step 4 is identical to Step 2 with duplication as the only added feature. We cannot attribute a measure to my 1-pov in either step because the outcome is truly random. It is because an event can be random or probabilistic that we have to put a measure on it (like a distribution of probabilities, or of credibilities). Example: the perfect throwing of the perfect coin gives an random experience with a probability measure HEAD = 1/2, TAIL = 1/2. I will ask you questions, if you don't mind. I prefer to ask question and illustrate the use of the word in place of teaching you the probability theory. - Do you agree that if you throw a coin, you have a probability of 1/2 to get HEAD? - Do you agree that if you throw a dice, you have a probability of 1/6 to get six? - Do you agree that if you play lottery, you will win the biggest price with a probability like 1/big number In most discrete case, we can infer equivalence of the elementary events on the base of symmetry (like in the old Pascal probability calculus). Here I would merely like to ask, random to whom? *Fair enough.* In all situation which will interest us: it means random for the subject who performs the (first person) experience. You are the one throwing the dice? Then it will be random for you (despite it will be random for your friend too, but perhaps not for God). Doesn't random mean that no conscious mind (mine or yours) can see the determinism behind it? I could agree, although it is not necessary to dig on such detailed analysis, imo. We are tempted to say probability 1/2 but that is only a comp-style bet. I am not sure I understand. There is just one comp bet: the yes doctor, which we can be paraphrased in step 1by I survive (or I go to Mars) with probability 1. (and idem in step 2) But in step 3, ASSUMING comp, it is hard for me to see any difference with the throwing of a coin, *for the subject of the experience*. Suppose I propose the following two type of experiences/experiments. The ROOM ZERO and the ROOM ONE are NOT distinguishable from inside (but are of
Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
John Mikes wrote: Dear Bruno, I decided so many times not to reflect to the esoteric sci-fi assumptions (thought experiments?) on this list - about situations beyond common sense, their use as templates for consequences. Now, however, I can't control my 'mouse' - in random and probabilistics. * Bruno quotes in -- lines, like the starting proposition: It is because an event can be random or probabilistic... * ...the perfect throwing of the perfect coin gives an random experience with a probability measure HEAD = 1/2, TAIL = 1/2 Wrong. A PERFECT coin PERFECTLY thrown gives ALWAYS either HEAD or TAIL. It is those imperfections unobserved(?) that makes the difference in the outcome to 50-50. The only difference that really counts is the starting condition - whether it is thrown head or tail UP. Interestingly, the statistician Persis Diaconis can flip a coin so that it lands heads or tails as he chooses. Many professional magicians can do it to. To your subsequent 3 questions the answer is YES - depending how you identify 'probability'. (I don't). To your evaluating paragraph Fair Enough: fair enough. That makes my point. * The experiments with sleeping in the room with whiskey are above my head (=my common sense). The Einstein conclusions show that even a big genius like him cannot cope with epistemic enrichment coming AFTER his time. (Which extends into the contemporary novelties as well?!) ...Einstein missed comp by its conventionalist math blindness perhaps, togethet with the fact that he was not interested in computer science. ... I admire Kim's scientific tenacity to absorb your 'explanations' to the level of asking resonable questions. I could not spend so much time to submerge myself - and - maybe I am further away from your domain to do so. Thanks for the (*) added post scriptum, I missed it so far. One word of how I feel about probability: In the conventional (scientific/math) view we consider model domains for our observation (interest). Within such domain we 'count' the item in question (that is statistical) irrespective of occurrences beyond the boundaries of that domain. The next occurrence in the future history is undecided from a knowledge of the domain's past history in our best effort: we can consider only the 'stuff' limited into our model, cannot include effects from 'the rest of the world', so we cannot tell a 'probability' of the 'next' occurrence at all. Ominscient is different. I am not. I think it is an open question whether there is inherent randomness in quantum mechanics. In Bohmian QM the randomness comes from ignorance of the rest of the world. But the EPR experiments show that this can only hold if the influence of the rest of the world is non-local (i.e. faster than light) and hence inconsistent with relativity. Brent --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Kim 2.4 - 2.5
On 03 Jan 2009, at 12:59, Kim Jones wrote: Bruno, In this step, one of me experiences (or actually does not experience) the delay prior to reconstitution. In Step 2, it was proven to me that I cannot know that any extra time (other than the 4 minutes necessary transmission interval) has elapsed between my annihilation and reconstitution on Mars. The same thing will now happen to one of me in the duplication-plus-delay in Step 4. Essentially, Step 4 is identical to Step 2 with duplication as the only added feature. We cannot attribute a measure to my 1-pov in either step because the outcome is truly random. It is because an event can be random or probabilistic that we have to put a measure on it (like a distribution of probabilities, or of credibilities). Example: the perfect throwing of the perfect coin gives an random experience with a probability measure HEAD = 1/2, TAIL = 1/2. I will ask you questions, if you don't mind. I prefer to ask question and illustrate the use of the word in place of teaching you the probability theory. - Do you agree that if you throw a coin, you have a probability of 1/2 to get HEAD? - Do you agree that if you throw a dice, you have a probability of 1/6 to get six? - Do you agree that if you play lottery, you will win the biggest price with a probability like 1/big number In most discrete case, we can infer equivalence of the elementary events on the base of symmetry (like in the old Pascal probability calculus). Here I would merely like to ask, random to whom? Fair enough. In all situation which will interest us: it means random for the subject who performs the (first person) experience. You are the one throwing the dice? Then it will be random for you (despite it will be random for your friend too, but perhaps not for God). Doesn't random mean that no conscious mind (mine or yours) can see the determinism behind it? I could agree, although it is not necessary to dig on such detailed analysis, imo. We are tempted to say probability 1/2 but that is only a comp- style bet. I am not sure I understand. There is just one comp bet: the yes doctor, which we can be paraphrased in step 1by I survive (or I go to Mars) with probability 1. (and idem in step 2) But in step 3, ASSUMING comp, it is hard for me to see any difference with the throwing of a coin, *for the subject of the experience*. Suppose I propose the following two type of experiences/experiments. The ROOM ZERO and the ROOM ONE are NOT distinguishable from inside (but are of course distinguishable from outside). In particular, to make things 100% clear later, i add in both room a close box with a bottle of whisky inside. And you know this fact about the rooms. Type 1 experience: I make you asleep, then I throw a coin, if the outcome is HEAD I put you in the ROOM ZERO, if I get TAIL, I put you in the ROOM ONE. In the room, I wake you up, and I ask you to evaluate the chance of finding whisky in the box, and then the chance (probability) of being in room ZERO. Type 2 experience: I make you asleep, then I scan you and annihilate you, and I reconstitute you in both rooms ZERO and ONE. I wake you up in both room. In both rooms, you have to evaluate the chance (probability) of being in room ZERO or ONE, and the chance of finding whisky in the box. From the first person points of view, sequences of such experience will seem equivalent, except for the Harry Potter or white rabbit youS, which will believe in special computable sequences. OK? Now the question can be asked BEFORE you undergo the experience. You can predict you will have whisky with probability 1. So you can predict that you will NOT know in which room you are with probability one. So you can predict with certainty that you *will be* uncertain of which room you are. So you are now not knowing in which room you will be. So the 1/2 can be lifted in your past. You could not have known! (This I sum up by the drawing: Y = II, bifurcation of futures differentiates the pasts) You explained on this in Step 2: We see that the MEC hypothesis, generally considered as imposing a strong determinacy in nature, introduces on the contrary a form of strong indeterminacy. Even a God, or whatever possible Omniscient Being, cannot predict to you, before a duplication (of you) experiment, where you will feel to be after. If he told you you will feel to be the one in room A, the Kim in room A will say that such God was right, but the one in room B will know or believe that that God was wrong, and the point of MEC is that we have no reason to listen more to one Kim than to the other Kim. In particular the Kim of room A will not convince the Kim of room B, that God was right. No Kim will ever be able to convince its counterpart about any possible method of prediction for the particular future. I want to grok this more. At this stage I can
Kim 2.4 - 2.5
Bruno, In this step, one of me experiences (or actually does not experience) the delay prior to reconstitution. In Step 2, it was proven to me that I cannot know that any extra time (other than the 4 minutes necessary transmission interval) has elapsed between my annihilation and reconstitution on Mars. The same thing will now happen to one of me in the duplication-plus-delay in Step 4. Essentially, Step 4 is identical to Step 2 with duplication as the only added feature. We cannot attribute a measure to my 1-pov in either step because the outcome is truly random. Here I would merely like to ask, random to whom? Doesn't random mean that no conscious mind (mine or yours) can see the determinism behind it? We are tempted to say probability 1/2 but that is only a comp- style bet. You explained on this in Step 2: We see that the MEC hypothesis, generally considered as imposing a strong determinacy in nature, introduces on the contrary a form of strong indeterminacy. Even a God, or whatever possible Omniscient Being, cannot predict to you, before a duplication (of you) experiment, where you will feel to be after. If he told you you will feel to be the one in room A, the Kim in room A will say that such God was right, but the one in room B will know or believe that that God was wrong, and the point of MEC is that we have no reason to listen more to one Kim than to the other Kim. In particular the Kim of room A will not convince the Kim of room B, that God was right. No Kim will ever be able to convince its counterpart about any possible method of prediction for the particular future. This does not mean that nothing can be predicted. I want to grok this more. At this stage I can only believe you. I have always felt (with Einstein) that reality is fundamentally deterministic, even if we have to point to stochastic features along the way. I know you will be able to debunk this easily and to my (and Einstein's) satisfaction. Maybe dwell a little on this and then move on to Step 5 where you manage to email me to me. This is truly scary because here I meet myself. I recall with horror what Angier did about his double in The Prestige... Actually, I believe I have already met my double. Once, a man stopped outside my house and stroked my cat, which was on the verandah. I greeted him and he told me that he had a cat that looked exactly like my cat and that it was his dearest and most cherished friend (I feel much the same way about my cat). I then asked him what name he had given his cat. He told me Cindy Bingy. I think my mouth must have fallen open in shock because that is the name of my cat too. From memory, the man looked rather like me as well. He then walked off while I stood there wondering about the improbability of all this (I cannot remember whether cannabis was in my system at the time) regards, K --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---