Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
. And that has happened. The > majority of bit coins are owned by the minority of participants. If bitcoin > were to become a global currency an oligarchy is already in place to wield > injustice upon the 99.% of us. The only way to achieve equity is through centralised control. We've been through that, I pass... It is possible to buy bitcoins with dollars. Mining is not terribly lucrative. Sure, the first movers are (already) getting rich, but why not? And how could this oligarchy be worse? Ok, let's assume they have most of the money -- this is already the world we live in. A very small percentage of the population controls most of the money. But in our world it's a double-whammy: they also have the power to regulate, so they can decide, for example, that if you want to watch porn in the UK you will have to put your name in a government list. I dream of post-scarcity. To get to post-scarcity we need technological and scientific progress. My belief is that the fastest way to get there is through free-market capitalism. I might be wrong. Sorry for ranting so much :) Telmo. > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 11:58:47 -0400 > > Subject: Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR > From: jami...@gmail.com > To: everything-list@googlegroups.com > > Nobody raised the point that we are living in the aura of some obsolete > dream about a world that is long gone and 'apply' the same words to regulate > our lives in an advanced (completely changed) world (system) 2-300 years > later. The world changed. > > We are obsolete. > > Nobody 'owns' NATURE, the environment (agricultural(?) and mining(!) > products), forests, prairies and their ecosystems (from wood to wolves) nor > 'water' and should not 'sell' those items for profit. It is only the > activity to bring them about that may charge for reimbursement. Not even the > access to it. > It is not different from 'owning' persons. > We not only need a new law-construct, we need a new perspective. > > Freedom means to feel free to do ANYTHING without any infringement of > anybody else's freedom. > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 1:15 PM, meekerdb wrote: > > On 7/18/2013 2:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Also, it's a funny moment in History to pretend that giving this much > power to governments does not have consequences. What if the economy > is saved but we end up living under a modern global Stasi? This > sounded like "conspiracy theory" stuff a few weeks ago, but what about > now? > > My hope is that bitcoin or something like that will finally set us > free from the criminals that have been running the financial systems. > I still believe in technology more than I believe in politics. > > > But it's technology that's enabling the global Stasi. If someone had to > actually listen to your phonecalls and take notes our privacy would be > secure. > > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
Thanks Telmo That sheds a little more light on where you're coming from. I watched those videos with interest and found the Austrian school fascinating. Apologies in advance for the length of this post and for the howling errors in reasoning it undoubtedly contains. I’m just a beginner! So the Australian school sees the interest related activities of a central bank to have a distorting effect on the pool of information available to market participants and that this distortion is responsible for booms and busts. i.e. Artificially high interest rates gives investors the impression that people are saving for future consumption, when in fact they might not be. And so on. But the central banks are not secretive about the fluctuations in interest rates they impose, the exact increases/decreases they make are available and are frequently reviewed. The reasons they are imposed are out in the open. In other words, it should be possible to adjust for central bank activity and invest wisely. Why doesn't that happen? As far as I can tell, the spectre of market fundamentalism lurks behind the scenes in the Austrian school. The view is that the market behaves rationally in the absence of regulation. It doesn't entertain the idea that human understanding is inherently distorted and fallible and that errors in judgement arise quite naturally. I depart from the Austrian school at this point. If distortion is just part of the human condition then an argument for regulation re-emerges. Of course, if the central bank is the only source of distortion then it needs to be gotten rid of. But is it really a major culprit? Boom bust cycles existed long before central banks, so they can not be a necessary cause. And we see wild 'boom busts' in decentralized systems like bitcoin. Why? You say the hope is that it will just 'settle down'. I say it is behaving as any decentralized system would. Its acute in bitcoin because it is the classical fiat currency. It is anchored by nothing but perception of value and is therefore blown this way and that by the naturally distorted perceptions of those who participate in it. Like you I wish the system was more equitable. But is bitcoin equitable? I don't think so. From its conception it creates a natural bitcoin aristocracy because as time goes on it gets harder and harder to mine coins and, as usual, an individual's ability to gather resources depends on the power they already have. Rich people can afford bigger and better computers to crunch numbers, me with my zx81, well … im screwed. And that has happened. The majority of bit coins are owned by the minority of participants. If bitcoin were to become a global currency an oligarchy is already in place to wield injustice upon the 99.% of us. Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 11:58:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR From: jami...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Nobody raised the point that we are living in the aura of some obsolete dream about a world that is long gone and 'apply' the same words to regulate our lives in an advanced (completely changed) world (system) 2-300 years later. The world changed. We are obsolete. Nobody 'owns' NATURE, the environment (agricultural(?) and mining(!) products), forests, prairies and their ecosystems (from wood to wolves) nor 'water' and should not 'sell' those items for profit. It is only the activity to bring them about that may charge for reimbursement. Not even the access to it. It is not different from 'owning' persons. We not only need a new law-construct, we need a new perspective. Freedom means to feel free to do ANYTHING without any infringement of anybody else's freedom. On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 1:15 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 7/18/2013 2:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Also, it's a funny moment in History to pretend that giving this much power to governments does not have consequences. What if the economy is saved but we end up living under a modern global Stasi? This sounded like "conspiracy theory" stuff a few weeks ago, but what about now? My hope is that bitcoin or something like that will finally set us free from the criminals that have been running the financial systems. I still believe in technology more than I believe in politics. But it's technology that's enabling the global Stasi. If someone had to actually listen to your phonecalls and take notes our privacy would be secure. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email t
Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
Nobody raised the point that we are living in the aura of some obsolete dream about a world that is long gone and 'apply' the same words to regulate our lives in an advanced (completely changed) world (system) 2-300 years later. The world changed. We are obsolete. Nobody 'owns' NATURE, the environment (agricultural(?) and mining(!) products), forests, prairies and their ecosystems (from wood to wolves) nor 'water' and should not 'sell' those items for profit. It is only the activity to bring them about that may charge for reimbursement. Not even the access to it. It is not different from 'owning' persons. We not only need a new law-construct, we need a new perspective. *Freedom means to feel free to do ANYTHING without any infringement of anybody else's freedom. * On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 1:15 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 7/18/2013 2:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Also, it's a funny moment in History to pretend that giving this much > power to governments does not have consequences. What if the economy > is saved but we end up living under a modern global Stasi? This > sounded like "conspiracy theory" stuff a few weeks ago, but what about > now? > > My hope is that bitcoin or something like that will finally set us > free from the criminals that have been running the financial systems. > I still believe in technology more than I believe in politics. > > > But it's technology that's enabling the global Stasi. If someone had to > actually listen to your phonecalls and take notes our privacy would be > secure. > > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
These derivatives had not been sold if not for the euphoria generated by cheap credits deliberately promoted by the central Banks and the craziness of credit for everyone even if no assets, no income, no job, by Clinton´s Freeddy & Fanny and the pressure of ACORN over the banks. So the ball goes again to the regulations. The markets optimize the assignment of resources for what you want. It ever gives what you want. if you demand pencils, you will receive cheap pencils. If you demand madness, euphoria, inmorality, then the market amplifies that. What money and capitalism produces is to align the individual goals with the social goals by forcing you to work doing what the others demand, receiving a payment for your needs. If the social goals are right, then even inmoral people are forced to créate right things and services trough the market. That is the desired thing. If the social goals are perverse because people has lost the contact with reality (for example by the promises of cheap money build of thin air) then the market forces virtuous, moral and hardworking people to do evil things. 2013/7/16 chris peck > Hi Roger > > hmmm. sort of. Lowering interest rates, creating cheap money, in part > encouraged banks to lend to people they ordinarily would not have. This put > more buyers on the market and that increase in demand led to a rise in > house prices. Of course, when the interest rates went up, those loans > became much more expensive and people found they couldn't afford the > mortgages they had taken. People began to default, demand decreased and > then so did the house prices. > > But, there was a whole lot more to it than that. Deregulation, (ie. free > market sensibility), allowed banks to collect together and carve up loans > into complex derivatives and sell them on as 'high quality' assets. In > other words, free market sensibility led to a situation in which banks no > longer bore responsibility for the loans they made. They just made the IOUs > and then sold them on to pension schemes. Consequently, they loaned to > anybody because these derivatives enabled them to get an immediate return > on the loans, rather than have to wait 40 years. Crucially, they made loans > to people without demanding any kind of equity in the underlying asset. > This meant that defaulting became an extremely attractive proposition once > interest rates went up. So people defaulted willy nilly because they had no > stake in the houses they had bought. > > So really it was deregulation that buggered things up and generated false > hopes and deregulation that led to massively inflated house prices and then > .... bust. > > ------------------ > Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 20:11:45 -0400 > Subject: Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR > From: jami...@gmail.com > To: everything-list@googlegroups.com > > > How can an otherwise well educated and smart person write such stupidity? > Capitalism creates wealth out of the sweat of the expolited and enslaved > workforce they (the capitalists) keep on an economical/political leash. > MONEY does not grow on trees. > Doctor, you should know better! > Dr. phil - D.Sc. John M > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > > *Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR* > > There are two ways of cheapening money: mechanically, by printing it, > and emoltionally, by making it more easily available > (less desirable) by lowering the interest rates. > > There is also a way of enriching money, and that is by NOT doing either of > the above, > by not interfering with the market. > > Here is why. > > If somebody came along and told you that you can make gasoline out of > water, you'd call him a > con man. Can't be done. But I am here to tell you that you can create > money out of thin air. > The govt creates it by printing it, which is bad, for it cheapens money > and thus creates no real wealth. > This is the mechanical creation of wealth. But wealth can also be achieved > by simply believing > that it can be done (by naturally rising prices in hopes of future gain). > > Profit, the magic ingredient of capitalism, is the creation of wealth OUT > OF THIN AIR, where nobody loses, > if they both choose wisely enough. Both parties can profit-- the seller by > receiving a higher price and > the buyer by paying a higher price in the hope that he can resell it at an > even higher price or make use of > it in some other profitable way, such as buying in bulk. So the hope of > the seller-- for a brighter day tomorrow-- > is what creates wealth in the economy. > > Before the bubble burst, the housing market was an example of this, except > that there was a third party-- the go
Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
On 19 Jul 2013, at 08:49, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 7:15 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 7/18/2013 2:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Also, it's a funny moment in History to pretend that giving this much power to governments does not have consequences. What if the economy is saved but we end up living under a modern global Stasi? This sounded like "conspiracy theory" stuff a few weeks ago, but what about now? My hope is that bitcoin or something like that will finally set us free from the criminals that have been running the financial systems. I still believe in technology more than I believe in politics. But it's technology that's enabling the global Stasi. If someone had to actually listen to your phonecalls and take notes our privacy would be secure. True :( My reasoning is this: I believe that it is possible to create a network that cannot be compromised, by a combination of strong encryption, pear to pear topology and decentralised everything. This things already exist. The reason they aren't popular is that they are too inconvenient to use. The more intrusive governments become, the higher the incentive to both improve these technologies and put up with inconveniences. So I have this hope that things like PRISM will be the catalyst of their own demise. Even the hardware medium can become decentralised with the advent of very small computers that can be deployed everywhere, including balloons and other crazy ideas. Communication through quantum entanglement would set us free for good, unless I'm missing something. In the long future, entanglement might provide a way to secure classical teleportation, and permit to avoid being copied and reconstituted by some pirate. Quite possibly. But technology is orthogonal to politics, and if humans does not develop the spiritual maturity to treat themselves better, technology will continue to be misused for special and criminal interests. In fact I do think that some spiritual maturity is needed to discover new technologies, but technology, like DNA and books, can be easily copied and used (and perhaps misused) by people having not the mature mind to invent or discover it. As long as theology will be a taboo in science, the human sciences will not develop, and we will get more of the dangerous mixing of high technologies and barbary, like the 20th and 21th centuries illustrate. Bruno Telmo. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
fun times :) > >>> My hope is that bitcoin or something like that will finally set us > free from the criminals that have been running the financial systems. > > I don't think you eliminate fraud by decentralizing a currency and a fair > amount of fraud has already been associated with bitcoin. I think we have different meanings for the word. Most of the "fraud" associated with Bitcoin is in the form of economical transactions between consenting adults which I don't think the government has any business interfering with. What I do mean by fraud is an entire financial system that is rigged at its core, and when it fails this results in an astronomical transfer of money from the middle class to the already super-wealthy. I see no reason why this won't happen over and over again under the current system of "too big to fail". Politicians will always show up with their suits and grave faces and explain that there are very sensible reasons why X has to be done, and every fucking single time X = transfer more money to the already obscenely rich. Sometimes it is necessary to use the illusion of choice to appease the people, as in replacing Bush with Obama. > Plus, the value of > a bitcoin seems to fluctuate wildly. Isn't that the kind of value activity > that necessitates central banks in the first place? Whatever currency the > future uses it will need to be stable rather than jump and drop in value > just because a server crashes or an exchange's database gets hacked. Those > are the cyber equivalents of bad weather and a currency needs to ride them. You're right, these are real problems. The proponents of bitcoin hope that the currency will stabilise as it's market cap increases, has the idea becomes more mainstream, as more and more businesses use it in physical transactions and so on. I don't think anybody knows for sure if this is a pipe dream or not. It's a hope... > And as a side point, you can't have both bitcoin (money) and a resource > based economy (moneyless). Again, I didn't mean resource based economy in that sense. Bitcoin configures a limited supply of money, so it might converge to being resource-bound *if* it survives for long enough. Cheers, Telmo. > > Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:15:49 -0700 > From: meeke...@verizon.net > > To: everything-list@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR > > On 7/18/2013 2:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Also, it's a funny moment in History to pretend that giving this much > power to governments does not have consequences. What if the economy > is saved but we end up living under a modern global Stasi? This > sounded like "conspiracy theory" stuff a few weeks ago, but what about > now? > > My hope is that bitcoin or something like that will finally set us > free from the criminals that have been running the financial systems. > I still believe in technology more than I believe in politics. > > > But it's technology that's enabling the global Stasi. If someone had to > actually listen to your phonecalls and take notes our privacy would be > secure. > > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 7:15 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 7/18/2013 2:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Also, it's a funny moment in History to pretend that giving this much > power to governments does not have consequences. What if the economy > is saved but we end up living under a modern global Stasi? This > sounded like "conspiracy theory" stuff a few weeks ago, but what about > now? > > My hope is that bitcoin or something like that will finally set us > free from the criminals that have been running the financial systems. > I still believe in technology more than I believe in politics. > > > But it's technology that's enabling the global Stasi. If someone had to > actually listen to your phonecalls and take notes our privacy would be > secure. True :( My reasoning is this: I believe that it is possible to create a network that cannot be compromised, by a combination of strong encryption, pear to pear topology and decentralised everything. This things already exist. The reason they aren't popular is that they are too inconvenient to use. The more intrusive governments become, the higher the incentive to both improve these technologies and put up with inconveniences. So I have this hope that things like PRISM will be the catalyst of their own demise. Even the hardware medium can become decentralised with the advent of very small computers that can be deployed everywhere, including balloons and other crazy ideas. Communication through quantum entanglement would set us free for good, unless I'm missing something. Telmo. > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
@ Telmo Hi Telmo >> The key word here is "leveraged". Ultimately, this level of leveraging is only possible because the Fed can create money out of thin air. You'll have to elaborate on that. As far as I am aware the banks were leveraged by money currently in circulation. Loans made by insurance companies, pension schemes, hedge funds etc. Of course, central banks can print money and they will do that in a crisis to ensure liquidity, but Im not aware that they do it to support leverage in investment banks. And they are reluctant to do it at all because of the dangers of inflation. But maybe I don't really get your gist here and you are saying something more fundamental ... >> In a rational resource based economy, this entire situation would not be possible to begin with. Again, you have the edge here because Im new to economics and had to look up 'resource based economy'. As attractive as the idea seems to me one thing strikes me as essential about it right off the bat and that is that they must emerge rather than get imposed. This, to stop them becoming the very kind autocracy that they don't wish to be. From a brief read I gather there is agreement about that, advocates do not wish to be seen as revolutionary. Given that, we seem stuck with the current system for the time being. >>If you begin with the dogma that government must control the money supply, then sure. But it might be a bit early to claim that the economy was saved. What I see is western governments accumulating unprecedented levels of debt. China seems to be winning the game, but then what? When I say that in mid sept. 2008 the global market was in cardiac arrest I really mean that. I think there's a strong case that argues capitalism would have come to an end there and then had the central banks not stepped in. Of course, solutions to that issue might cause subsequent problems. An immediate catastrophe was averted but that isn't to say the system is not still in crisis. I can certainly agree with you there. There will be another crisis sooner or later and the question is whether we fix the problems we observed in 2008 (ie. regulate) or carry on as normal... As for China, I think the relationship is pretty symbiotic. China, being an export economy, can't 'win the game' without US Debt. So what you see emerging is less China vs. US and more China + US. >> My hope is that bitcoin or something like that will finally set us free from the criminals that have been running the financial systems. I don't think you eliminate fraud by decentralizing a currency and a fair amount of fraud has already been associated with bitcoin. Plus, the value of a bitcoin seems to fluctuate wildly. Isn't that the kind of value activity that necessitates central banks in the first place? Whatever currency the future uses it will need to be stable rather than jump and drop in value just because a server crashes or an exchange's database gets hacked. Those are the cyber equivalents of bad weather and a currency needs to ride them. And as a side point, you can't have both bitcoin (money) and a resource based economy (moneyless). Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:15:49 -0700 From: meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR On 7/18/2013 2:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Also, it's a funny moment in History to pretend that giving this much power to governments does not have consequences. What if the economy is saved but we end up living under a modern global Stasi? This sounded like "conspiracy theory" stuff a few weeks ago, but what about now? My hope is that bitcoin or something like that will finally set us free from the criminals that have been running the financial systems. I still believe in technology more than I believe in politics. But it's technology that's enabling the global Stasi. If someone had to actually listen to your phonecalls and take notes our privacy would be secure. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
On 7/18/2013 2:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Also, it's a funny moment in History to pretend that giving this much power to governments does not have consequences. What if the economy is saved but we end up living under a modern global Stasi? This sounded like "conspiracy theory" stuff a few weeks ago, but what about now? My hope is that bitcoin or something like that will finally set us free from the criminals that have been running the financial systems. I still believe in technology more than I believe in politics. But it's technology that's enabling the global Stasi. If someone had to actually listen to your phonecalls and take notes our privacy would be secure. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 1:45 AM, chris peck wrote: > @ Telmo > > >> Free markets assume rational agents performing symmetrical >> transactions for their one self-interest. What we have in reality is a >> centralised secret bureaucracy with unchecked economical and >> regulatory powers. Hi Chris, > The 70s through to the 00s was typified by the dismantling of Glass-Steagall > such that financial markets were increasingly unregulated rather than > regulated. Free rather than governed. Yes, but at the same time the Fed controlled the supply of money. The system is irrational at its core. Money stopped being equivalent to resources a long time ago. Now it's just a political convention. > The market in CDOs and Credit Default Swaps and all the other derivatives at > the center of the GFC was not regulated. The Big Banks like Lehman Brothers > and Bear Stearns leveraged themselves to the hilt ... unchecked. The key word here is "leveraged". Ultimately, this level of leveraging is only possible because the Fed can create money out of thin air. In a rational resource based economy, this entire situation would not be possible to begin with. > The event that sent liquidity in the economy into cardiac arrest was the > refusal of Hank Paulson to intervene in the failure of Lehman Bros. The > refusal of government to interfere. > > What de-fribullated the economy? As bitter a pill as it must be for market > fundamentalists to swallow recovery was instigated by bail outs and > intervention. > > That's the irony isn't it? That faith in Adam Smith's invisible hand in fact > nurtured the growth of financial institutions that became 'too big to fail'. > It ended up cementing the requirement of government to intervene in finance. If you begin with the dogma that government must control the money supply, then sure. But it might be a bit early to claim that the economy was saved. What I see is western governments accumulating unprecedented levels of debt. China seems to be winning the game, but then what? Also, it's a funny moment in History to pretend that giving this much power to governments does not have consequences. What if the economy is saved but we end up living under a modern global Stasi? This sounded like "conspiracy theory" stuff a few weeks ago, but what about now? My hope is that bitcoin or something like that will finally set us free from the criminals that have been running the financial systems. I still believe in technology more than I believe in politics. And let's not kid ourselves, part of what's going on in the world right now, financially and otherwise is a struggle between the world that could be (enabled by the Internet) and the ruling elites. > Interest rates though, they can go up and down and be fiddled with by > government for decades without triggering the kind of crisis witnessed in > 2008. > >> From: marc...@ulb.ac.be >> To: everything-list@googlegroups.com > >> Subject: Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR >> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:22:49 +0200 > >> >> >> On 16 Jul 2013, at 16:08, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 2:09 AM, chris peck >> > wrote: >> >> Hi Roger >> >> >> >> hmmm. sort of. Lowering interest rates, creating cheap money, in part >> >> encouraged banks to lend to people they ordinarily would not have. >> >> This put >> >> more buyers on the market and that increase in demand led to a rise >> >> in house >> >> prices. Of course, when the interest rates went up, those loans >> >> became much >> >> more expensive and people found they couldn't afford the mortgages >> >> they had >> >> taken. People began to default, demand decreased and then so did >> >> the house >> >> prices. >> >> >> >> But, there was a whole lot more to it than that. Deregulation, (ie. >> >> free >> >> market sensibility), >> >> allowed banks to collect together and carve up loans >> >> into complex derivatives and sell them on as 'high quality' assets. >> >> In other >> >> words, free market sensibility led to a situation in which banks no >> >> longer >> >> bore responsibility for the loans they made. >> > >> > We haven't had a free market in the western world for a long time now. >> > >> > Banks loan money that, in turn, they borrowed from the fed (or the >> > ECB, or...). Central banks have the power to create money out of thin >> > air. They control the supply of money.
RE: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
@ Telmo > Free markets assume rational agents performing symmetrical > transactions for their one self-interest. What we have in reality is a > centralised secret bureaucracy with unchecked economical and > regulatory powers. The 70s through to the 00s was typified by the dismantling of Glass-Steagall such that financial markets were increasingly unregulated rather than regulated. Free rather than governed. The market in CDOs and Credit Default Swaps and all the other derivatives at the center of the GFC was not regulated. The Big Banks like Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns leveraged themselves to the hilt ... unchecked. The event that sent liquidity in the economy into cardiac arrest was the refusal of Hank Paulson to intervene in the failure of Lehman Bros. The refusal of government to interfere. What de-fribullated the economy? As bitter a pill as it must be for market fundamentalists to swallow recovery was instigated by bail outs and intervention. That's the irony isn't it? That faith in Adam Smith's invisible hand in fact nurtured the growth of financial institutions that became 'too big to fail'. It ended up cementing the requirement of government to intervene in finance. Interest rates though, they can go up and down and be fiddled with by government for decades without triggering the kind of crisis witnessed in 2008. > From: marc...@ulb.ac.be > To: everything-list@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR > Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:22:49 +0200 > > > On 16 Jul 2013, at 16:08, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 2:09 AM, chris peck > > wrote: > >> Hi Roger > >> > >> hmmm. sort of. Lowering interest rates, creating cheap money, in part > >> encouraged banks to lend to people they ordinarily would not have. > >> This put > >> more buyers on the market and that increase in demand led to a rise > >> in house > >> prices. Of course, when the interest rates went up, those loans > >> became much > >> more expensive and people found they couldn't afford the mortgages > >> they had > >> taken. People began to default, demand decreased and then so did > >> the house > >> prices. > >> > >> But, there was a whole lot more to it than that. Deregulation, (ie. > >> free > >> market sensibility), > >> allowed banks to collect together and carve up loans > >> into complex derivatives and sell them on as 'high quality' assets. > >> In other > >> words, free market sensibility led to a situation in which banks no > >> longer > >> bore responsibility for the loans they made. > > > > We haven't had a free market in the western world for a long time now. > > > > Banks loan money that, in turn, they borrowed from the fed (or the > > ECB, or...). Central banks have the power to create money out of thin > > air. They control the supply of money. This is not capitalism, it's > > something else. Something insane. > > > > Free markets assume rational agents performing symmetrical > > transactions for their one self-interest. What we have in reality is a > > centralised secret bureaucracy with unchecked economical and > > regulatory powers. > > I agree. We assist to a criminal perversion of capitalism. It seems to > me that there are evidences that this has been prepared between the > assassination of Kennedy and the election of Nixon. > > > > > > > In a real free market, I would be able to loan you money and act like > > a bank myself. The big banks would have to make do with the money > > reserves they had. > > And the worst is yet to come when you see how Obama is handling the > TPP (the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement). > I hear also often in that context the idea that "corporation are > person", which is a non sense, and a real threat on the people. > > But Obama's NDAA 2012 is quite clear, and is literally a confession of > terrorism. For now I am waiting for a serious inquest for 9/11, as the > official conspirary theory makes less and less sense to me. In fact > they have not yet provided one evidence for their case, except a > passport which has survived a fire so hot that steal melted and made a > skyscraper collapsing. > > I am optimist because the bandits made a fatal error: the prohibition > of marijuana and drugs. You need an infinite amount of money to > maintain craps like that. It might still last for some time, though, > and the number of direct and indirect victims will keep gro
Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
On 16 Jul 2013, at 16:08, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 2:09 AM, chris peck wrote: Hi Roger hmmm. sort of. Lowering interest rates, creating cheap money, in part encouraged banks to lend to people they ordinarily would not have. This put more buyers on the market and that increase in demand led to a rise in house prices. Of course, when the interest rates went up, those loans became much more expensive and people found they couldn't afford the mortgages they had taken. People began to default, demand decreased and then so did the house prices. But, there was a whole lot more to it than that. Deregulation, (ie. free market sensibility), allowed banks to collect together and carve up loans into complex derivatives and sell them on as 'high quality' assets. In other words, free market sensibility led to a situation in which banks no longer bore responsibility for the loans they made. We haven't had a free market in the western world for a long time now. Banks loan money that, in turn, they borrowed from the fed (or the ECB, or...). Central banks have the power to create money out of thin air. They control the supply of money. This is not capitalism, it's something else. Something insane. Free markets assume rational agents performing symmetrical transactions for their one self-interest. What we have in reality is a centralised secret bureaucracy with unchecked economical and regulatory powers. I agree. We assist to a criminal perversion of capitalism. It seems to me that there are evidences that this has been prepared between the assassination of Kennedy and the election of Nixon. In a real free market, I would be able to loan you money and act like a bank myself. The big banks would have to make do with the money reserves they had. And the worst is yet to come when you see how Obama is handling the TPP (the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement). I hear also often in that context the idea that "corporation are person", which is a non sense, and a real threat on the people. But Obama's NDAA 2012 is quite clear, and is literally a confession of terrorism. For now I am waiting for a serious inquest for 9/11, as the official conspirary theory makes less and less sense to me. In fact they have not yet provided one evidence for their case, except a passport which has survived a fire so hot that steal melted and made a skyscraper collapsing. I am optimist because the bandits made a fatal error: the prohibition of marijuana and drugs. You need an infinite amount of money to maintain craps like that. It might still last for some time, though, and the number of direct and indirect victims will keep growing. But you are right, capitalism is not the problem. It is just the total perversion of the markets by special interests and corporations' unscrupulous deregulating strategies. The middle class (and banks) is taken into hostage, and is already shrinking. Bruno Telmo. They just made the IOUs and then sold them on to pension schemes. Consequently, they loaned to anybody because these derivatives enabled them to get an immediate return on the loans, rather than have to wait 40 years. Crucially, they made loans to people without demanding any kind of equity in the underlying asset. This meant that defaulting became an extremely attractive proposition once interest rates went up. So people defaulted willy nilly because they had no stake in the houses they had bought. So really it was deregulation that buggered things up and generated false hopes and deregulation that led to massively inflated house prices and then bust. Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 20:11:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR From: jami...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com How can an otherwise well educated and smart person write such stupidity? Capitalism creates wealth out of the sweat of the expolited and enslaved workforce they (the capitalists) keep on an economical/political leash. MONEY does not grow on trees. Doctor, you should know better! Dr. phil - D.Sc. John M On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR There are two ways of cheapening money: mechanically, by printing it, and emoltionally, by making it more easily available (less desirable) by lowering the interest rates. There is also a way of enriching money, and that is by NOT doing either of the above, by not interfering with the market. Here is why. If somebody came along and told you that you can make gasoline out of water, you'd call him a con man. Can't be done. But I am here to tell you that you can create money out of thin air. The govt creates it by printing it, which is bad, for it cheapens money and thus creates no real wealth
Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 2:09 AM, chris peck wrote: > Hi Roger > > hmmm. sort of. Lowering interest rates, creating cheap money, in part > encouraged banks to lend to people they ordinarily would not have. This put > more buyers on the market and that increase in demand led to a rise in house > prices. Of course, when the interest rates went up, those loans became much > more expensive and people found they couldn't afford the mortgages they had > taken. People began to default, demand decreased and then so did the house > prices. > > But, there was a whole lot more to it than that. Deregulation, (ie. free > market sensibility), > allowed banks to collect together and carve up loans > into complex derivatives and sell them on as 'high quality' assets. In other > words, free market sensibility led to a situation in which banks no longer > bore responsibility for the loans they made. We haven't had a free market in the western world for a long time now. Banks loan money that, in turn, they borrowed from the fed (or the ECB, or...). Central banks have the power to create money out of thin air. They control the supply of money. This is not capitalism, it's something else. Something insane. Free markets assume rational agents performing symmetrical transactions for their one self-interest. What we have in reality is a centralised secret bureaucracy with unchecked economical and regulatory powers. In a real free market, I would be able to loan you money and act like a bank myself. The big banks would have to make do with the money reserves they had. Telmo. > They just made the IOUs and > then sold them on to pension schemes. Consequently, they loaned to anybody > because these derivatives enabled them to get an immediate return on the > loans, rather than have to wait 40 years. Crucially, they made loans to > people without demanding any kind of equity in the underlying asset. This > meant that defaulting became an extremely attractive proposition once > interest rates went up. So people defaulted willy nilly because they had no > stake in the houses they had bought. > > So really it was deregulation that buggered things up and generated false > hopes and deregulation that led to massively inflated house prices and then > bust. > > ________________ > Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 20:11:45 -0400 > Subject: Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR > From: jami...@gmail.com > To: everything-list@googlegroups.com > > > How can an otherwise well educated and smart person write such stupidity? > Capitalism creates wealth out of the sweat of the expolited and enslaved > workforce they (the capitalists) keep on an economical/political leash. > MONEY does not grow on trees. > Doctor, you should know better! > Dr. phil - D.Sc. John M > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > > Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR > > There are two ways of cheapening money: mechanically, by printing it, > and emoltionally, by making it more easily available > (less desirable) by lowering the interest rates. > > There is also a way of enriching money, and that is by NOT doing either of > the above, > by not interfering with the market. > > Here is why. > > If somebody came along and told you that you can make gasoline out of water, > you'd call him a > con man. Can't be done. But I am here to tell you that you can create money > out of thin air. > The govt creates it by printing it, which is bad, for it cheapens money and > thus creates no real wealth. > This is the mechanical creation of wealth. But wealth can also be achieved > by simply believing > that it can be done (by naturally rising prices in hopes of future gain). > > Profit, the magic ingredient of capitalism, is the creation of wealth OUT OF > THIN AIR, where nobody loses, > if they both choose wisely enough. Both parties can profit-- the seller by > receiving a higher price and > the buyer by paying a higher price in the hope that he can resell it at an > even higher price or make use of > it in some other profitable way, such as buying in bulk. So the hope of the > seller-- for a brighter day tomorrow-- > is what creates wealth in the economy. > > Before the bubble burst, the housing market was an example of this, except > that there was a third party-- the govt-- > who made cheap money available by lowering the interest rate. That screwed > things up by luring the buyer > into thinking that the housing price would rise, but it didn't. That's not a > free market, and that's why > the bubble burst, because it was an unrealistic hope. > > Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] > See my Leibni
RE: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
Hi Roger hmmm. sort of. Lowering interest rates, creating cheap money, in part encouraged banks to lend to people they ordinarily would not have. This put more buyers on the market and that increase in demand led to a rise in house prices. Of course, when the interest rates went up, those loans became much more expensive and people found they couldn't afford the mortgages they had taken. People began to default, demand decreased and then so did the house prices. But, there was a whole lot more to it than that. Deregulation, (ie. free market sensibility), allowed banks to collect together and carve up loans into complex derivatives and sell them on as 'high quality' assets. In other words, free market sensibility led to a situation in which banks no longer bore responsibility for the loans they made. They just made the IOUs and then sold them on to pension schemes. Consequently, they loaned to anybody because these derivatives enabled them to get an immediate return on the loans, rather than have to wait 40 years. Crucially, they made loans to people without demanding any kind of equity in the underlying asset. This meant that defaulting became an extremely attractive proposition once interest rates went up. So people defaulted willy nilly because they had no stake in the houses they had bought. So really it was deregulation that buggered things up and generated false hopes and deregulation that led to massively inflated house prices and then bust. Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 20:11:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR From: jami...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com How can an otherwise well educated and smart person write such stupidity? Capitalism creates wealth out of the sweat of the expolited and enslaved workforce they (the capitalists) keep on an economical/political leash. MONEY does not grow on trees. Doctor, you should know better! Dr. phil - D.Sc. John M On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR There are two ways of cheapening money: mechanically, by printing it, and emoltionally, by making it more easily available (less desirable) by lowering the interest rates. There is also a way of enriching money, and that is by NOT doing either of the above, by not interfering with the market. Here is why. If somebody came along and told you that you can make gasoline out of water, you'd call him a con man. Can't be done. But I am here to tell you that you can create money out of thin air. The govt creates it by printing it, which is bad, for it cheapens money and thus creates no real wealth. This is the mechanical creation of wealth. But wealth can also be achieved by simply believing that it can be done (by naturally rising prices in hopes of future gain). Profit, the magic ingredient of capitalism, is the creation of wealth OUT OF THIN AIR, where nobody loses, if they both choose wisely enough. Both parties can profit-- the seller by receiving a higher price and the buyer by paying a higher price in the hope that he can resell it at an even higher price or make use of it in some other profitable way, such as buying in bulk. So the hope of the seller-- for a brighter day tomorrow-- is what creates wealth in the economy. Before the bubble burst, the housing market was an example of this, except that there was a third party-- the govt-- who made cheap money available by lowering the interest rate. That screwed things up by luring the buyer into thinking that the housing price would rise, but it didn't. That's not a free market, and that's why the bubble burst, because it was an unrealistic hope. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List
Re: Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR
How can an otherwise well educated and smart person write such stupidity? Capitalism creates wealth out of the sweat of the expolited and enslaved workforce they (the capitalists) keep on an economical/political leash. MONEY does not grow on trees. Doctor, you should know better! Dr. phil - D.Sc. John M On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > *Capitalism : the way of creating wealth OUT OF THIN AIR* > > There are two ways of cheapening money: mechanically, by printing it, > and emoltionally, by making it more easily available > (less desirable) by lowering the interest rates. > > There is also a way of enriching money, and that is by NOT doing either of > the above, > by not interfering with the market. > > Here is why. > > If somebody came along and told you that you can make gasoline out of > water, you'd call him a > con man. Can't be done. But I am here to tell you that you can create > money out of thin air. > The govt creates it by printing it, which is bad, for it cheapens money > and thus creates no real wealth. > This is the mechanical creation of wealth. But wealth can also be achieved > by simply believing > that it can be done (by naturally rising prices in hopes of future gain). > > Profit, the magic ingredient of capitalism, is the creation of wealth OUT > OF THIN AIR, where nobody loses, > if they both choose wisely enough. Both parties can profit-- the seller by > receiving a higher price and > the buyer by paying a higher price in the hope that he can resell it at an > even higher price or make use of > it in some other profitable way, such as buying in bulk. So the hope of > the seller-- for a brighter day tomorrow-- > is what creates wealth in the economy. > > Before the bubble burst, the housing market was an example of this, except > that there was a third party-- the govt-- > who made cheap money available by lowering the interest rate. That screwed > things up by luring the buyer > into thinking that the housing price would rise, but it didn't. That's not > a free market, and that's why > the bubble burst, because it was an unrealistic hope. > > Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] > See my Leibniz site at > http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
