Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

['Cosmin Visan' via Everything List]

Consciousness (and so, reality) is all about meaning reported to context. 
And meanings and contexts can be anything, they don't have to be spatial or 
temporal.

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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

[Philip Thrift]

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 7:15:17 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
>
>
>
> On 7/7/2019 6:25 AM, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
> But the point is this topic was discussed for 20 years, beginning in the 
> group started by Victor Stenger (Timeless Reality). Physics does not rule 
> backward (or downward, for that matter) causation in or out, and someone 
> who tells you absolutely it is ruled out has no understanding of physics.
>
>
> In general it is ruled out by definition, as in classical mechanics: The 
> past and future are all determined by any sufficient set of conditions, so 
> when we give past conditions we say they cause the future condition and 
> when we give the future condition we say it is caused by the past.
>
> Brent
>
>


*Entangled Time*

https://www.sciencealert.com/if-you-thought-quantum-mechanics-was-weird-wait-til-you-check-out-entangled-time

*In both forward and backward directions, quantum correlations span the 
causal void between the death of one photon and the birth of the other.*

*We cannot afford to ignore spatial or temporal nonlocality in future 
metaphysics: whether or not the boots fit, we'll have to wear 'em.*

(What Would Vic (Victor Stenger) Say?)

@philipthrift

 

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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/7/2019 6:25 AM, Philip Thrift wrote:



On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 7:50:10 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote:



On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 7:41:24 AM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 7:03:05 AM UTC-5, Eva wrote:

@Lawrence Crowell

Very interesting, does it mean that everything is
connected not only spatially but also temporarily?


Sort of. The Wheeler delayed choice experiment indicates there
is a time aspect to entanglement as well. Look that up on
Wikipedia, and it is a bit odd. Quantum states and their
entanglements are not something that exist in space or time,
but which may have a representation in such. Things get a
little odd with time because there is no such thing as a
universal time operator. If there were it would mean the
conjugate of time, which is energy, as an operator can't have
a discrete spectrum.

@Philip Thrift

Retrocausation? So, I'm thirsty because I will drink
water? This is to much for me :/



Huw Price and Wharton have been beating this dead horse for a
long time. Not many physicists take this seriously, for it
would mean there is an underlying causal mechanism that would
obey Bell inequalities. The Bell theorem illustrate how
quantum physics violates these. The retrocauality idea is very
much an auslander conjecture that not many take seriously.

LC





This topic has been discussed for about 20 years here, beginning
in the original group.


By 'here' I meant on atvoid and atvoid-2 (the sequel), not 
everything-list.


But the point is this topic was discussed for 20 years, beginning in 
the group started by Victor Stenger (Timeless Reality). Physics does 
not rule backward (or downward, for that matter) causation in or out, 
and someone who tells you absolutely it is ruled out has no 
understanding of physics.


In general it is ruled out by definition, as in classical mechanics: The 
past and future are all determined by any sufficient set of conditions, 
so when we give past conditions we say they cause the future condition 
and when we give the future condition we say it is caused by the past.


Brent





https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/atvoid


Some are a dense today about this as they were 20 years ago. Don't
buy into the fundamentalist cult catechism (and a total
misunderstanding of physics) expressed above.

@philip thrift

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.


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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

[Philip Thrift]

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 4:14:16 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 2:18:15 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/6/2019 4:50 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>
>> n Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 6:04:18 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *In conclusion, we have demonstrated quantum entanglement between two 
>>> photons that do not share coexistence. Although one photon is measured even 
>>> before the other is created, full quantum correlations were observed **by 
>>> measuring the density matrix of the two photons, conditioned on the result 
>>> of the projecting measurement.*
>>>
>>> A demonstration of retrocausation (retrodependency). 
>>>
>>> @philipthrift
>>>
>>
>> NO!! That violates Bell's inequalities and this measurement was done with 
>> the stats that violate Bell's inequalities.
>>
>> LC
>>
>>
>> You mean "That would satisfy Bell's inequalities..." don't you?
>>
>> Brent
>>
>
> I should have said violates Bell's theorem. Bell's theorem is on how QM 
> violates classical inequalities for probabilities. Any attempt to wire up 
> some underpinning to QM that is classical would mean quantum systems would 
> have a hidden variable that would obey the inequalities. 
>
> LC 
>

 

*Locality, Independence and the Pro-Liberty Bell*
https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9602020

Construed as an argument against hidden variable theories, Bell's Theorem 
assumes that hidden variables would be independent of future measurement 
settings. This Independence Assumption (IA) is rarely questioned. Bell 
considered relaxing it to avoid non-locality, but thought that the 
resulting view left no room for free will. However, Bell seems to have 
failed to distinguish two different strategies for giving up IA. One 
strategy takes for granted the Principle of the Common Cause, which 
requires that a correlation between hidden variables and measurement 
settings be explained by a joint correlation with some unknown factor in 
their common past. The other strategy rejects the Principle of the Common 
Cause, and argues that the required correlation might be due to the known 
interaction between the object system and the measuring device in their 
common future. Bell and most others who have discussed these issues have 
focussed on the former strategy, but because the two approaches have not 
been properly distinguished, it has not been well appreciated that there is 
a quite different way to relax IA. This paper distinguishes the two 
strategies, and argues that the latter is considerably more appealing than 
the former.


@philipthrift 

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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 2:18:15 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
>
>
>
> On 7/6/2019 4:50 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> n Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 6:04:18 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: 
>>
>>
>>
>> *In conclusion, we have demonstrated quantum entanglement between two 
>> photons that do not share coexistence. Although one photon is measured even 
>> before the other is created, full quantum correlations were observed **by 
>> measuring the density matrix of the two photons, conditioned on the result 
>> of the projecting measurement.*
>>
>> A demonstration of retrocausation (retrodependency). 
>>
>> @philipthrift
>>
>
> NO!! That violates Bell's inequalities and this measurement was done with 
> the stats that violate Bell's inequalities.
>
> LC
>
>
> You mean "That would satisfy Bell's inequalities..." don't you?
>
> Brent
>

I should have said violates Bell's theorem. Bell's theorem is on how QM 
violates classical inequalities for probabilities. Any attempt to wire up 
some underpinning to QM that is classical would mean quantum systems would 
have a hidden variable that would obey the inequalities. 

LC 

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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/6/2019 4:50 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

n Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 6:04:18 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote:



/In conclusion, we have demonstrated quantum entanglement between
two photons that do not share coexistence. Although one photon is
measured even before the other is created, full quantum
correlations were observed //by measuring the density matrix of
the two photons, conditioned on the result of the projecting
measurement./

A demonstration of retrocausation (retrodependency).

@philipthrift


NO!! That violates Bell's inequalities and this measurement was done 
with the stats that violate Bell's inequalities.


LC


You mean "That would satisfy Bell's inequalities..." don't you?

Brent

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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

[Philip Thrift]

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 7:50:10 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 7:41:24 AM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>
>> On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 7:03:05 AM UTC-5, Eva wrote:
>>>
>>> @Lawrence Crowell
>>>
>>> Very interesting, does it mean that everything is connected not only 
>>> spatially but also temporarily?
>>>
>>
>> Sort of. The Wheeler delayed choice experiment indicates there is a time 
>> aspect to entanglement as well. Look that up on Wikipedia, and it is a bit 
>> odd. Quantum states and their entanglements are not something that exist in 
>> space or time, but which may have a representation in such. Things get a 
>> little odd with time because there is no such thing as a universal time 
>> operator. If there were it would mean the conjugate of time, which is 
>> energy, as an operator can't have a discrete spectrum. 
>>  
>>
>>> @Philip Thrift
>>>
>>> Retrocausation? So, I'm thirsty because I will drink water? This is to 
>>> much for me :/
>>>
>>
>>
>> Huw Price and Wharton have been beating this dead horse for a long time. 
>> Not many physicists take this seriously, for it would mean there is an 
>> underlying causal mechanism that would obey Bell inequalities. The Bell 
>> theorem illustrate how quantum physics violates these. The retrocauality 
>> idea is very much an auslander conjecture that not many take seriously.
>>
>> LC
>>
>
>
>
>
> This topic has been discussed for about 20 years here, beginning in the 
> original group.
>

By 'here' I meant on atvoid and atvoid-2 (the sequel), not everything-list.

But the point is this topic was discussed for 20 years, beginning in the 
group started by Victor Stenger (Timeless Reality). Physics does not rule 
backward (or downward, for that matter) causation in or out, and someone 
who tells you absolutely it is ruled out has no understanding of physics.



>https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/atvoid
>
> Some are a dense today about this as they were 20 years ago. Don't buy 
> into the fundamentalist cult catechism (and a total misunderstanding of 
> physics) expressed above.
>
>  
> @philip thrift
>

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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

[Philip Thrift]

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 7:41:24 AM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 7:03:05 AM UTC-5, Eva wrote:
>>
>> @Lawrence Crowell
>>
>> Very interesting, does it mean that everything is connected not only 
>> spatially but also temporarily?
>>
>
> Sort of. The Wheeler delayed choice experiment indicates there is a time 
> aspect to entanglement as well. Look that up on Wikipedia, and it is a bit 
> odd. Quantum states and their entanglements are not something that exist in 
> space or time, but which may have a representation in such. Things get a 
> little odd with time because there is no such thing as a universal time 
> operator. If there were it would mean the conjugate of time, which is 
> energy, as an operator can't have a discrete spectrum. 
>  
>
>> @Philip Thrift
>>
>> Retrocausation? So, I'm thirsty because I will drink water? This is to 
>> much for me :/
>>
>
>
> Huw Price and Wharton have been beating this dead horse for a long time. 
> Not many physicists take this seriously, for it would mean there is an 
> underlying causal mechanism that would obey Bell inequalities. The Bell 
> theorem illustrate how quantum physics violates these. The retrocauality 
> idea is very much an auslander conjecture that not many take seriously.
>
> LC
>




This topic has been discussed for about 20 years here, beginning in the 
original group.

   https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/atvoid

Some are a dense today about this as they were 20 years ago. Don't buy into 
the fundamentalist cult catechism (and a total misunderstanding of physics) 
expressed above.

 
@philip thrift

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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 7:03:05 AM UTC-5, Eva wrote:
>
> @Lawrence Crowell
>
> Very interesting, does it mean that everything is connected not only 
> spatially but also temporarily?
>

Sort of. The Wheeler delayed choice experiment indicates there is a time 
aspect to entanglement as well. Look that up on Wikipedia, and it is a bit 
odd. Quantum states and their entanglements are not something that exist in 
space or time, but which may have a representation in such. Things get a 
little odd with time because there is no such thing as a universal time 
operator. If there were it would mean the conjugate of time, which is 
energy, as an operator can't have a discrete spectrum. 
 

> @Philip Thrift
>
> Retrocausation? So, I'm thirsty because I will drink water? This is to 
> much for me :/
>


Huw Price and Wharton have been beating this dead horse for a long time. 
Not many physicists take this seriously, for it would mean there is an 
underlying causal mechanism that would obey Bell inequalities. The Bell 
theorem illustrate how quantum physics violates these. The retrocauality 
idea is very much an auslander conjecture that not many take seriously.

LC

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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

[Eva]

@Lawrence Crowell

Very interesting, does it mean that everything is connected not only spatially 
but also temporarily?

@Philip Thrift

Retrocausation? So, I'm thirsty because I will drink water? This is to much for 
me :/



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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

[Philip Thrift]

You are completely clueless, and in addition give false information about 
the subject.

@philipthrift

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 6:50:29 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 6:04:18 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> *In conclusion, we have demonstrated quantum entanglement between two 
>> photons that do not share coexistence. Although one photon is measured even 
>> before the other is created, full quantum correlations were observed **by 
>> measuring the density matrix of the two photons, conditioned on the result 
>> of the projecting measurement.*
>>
>> A demonstration of retrocausation (retrodependency). 
>>
>> @philipthrift
>>
>
> NO!! That violates Bell's inequalities and this measurement was done with 
> the stats that violate Bell's inequalities.
>
> LC
>  
>
>>
>> On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 5:17:07 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>>
>>> This is interesting, where photons that existed at different times can 
>>> be entangled.
>>>
>>> https://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.4191.pdf
>>>
>>> Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted 
>>>
>>> E. Megidish, A. Halevy, T. Shacham, T. Dvir, L. Dovrat, and H. S. 
>>> Eisenberg 
>>>
>>> Racah Institute of Physics, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem 
>>> 91904, Israel 
>>>
>>> The role of the timing and order of quantum measurements is not just a 
>>> fundamental question of quantum mechanics, but also a puzzling one. Any 
>>> part of a quantum system that has finished evolving, can be measured 
>>> immediately or saved for later, without affecting the final results, 
>>> regardless of the continued evolution of the rest of the system. In 
>>> addition, the non-locality of quantum mechanics, as manifested by 
>>> entanglement, does not apply only to particles with spatial separation, but 
>>> also with temporal separation. Here we demonstrate these principles by 
>>> generating and fully characterizing an entangled pair of photons that never 
>>> coexisted. Using entanglement swapping between two temporally separated 
>>> photon pairs we entangle one photon from the first pair with another photon 
>>> from the second pair. The first photon was detected even before the other 
>>> was created. The observed quantum correlations manifest the non-locality of 
>>> quantum mechanics in spacetime. 
>>>
>>

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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 6:04:18 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
>
> *In conclusion, we have demonstrated quantum entanglement between two 
> photons that do not share coexistence. Although one photon is measured even 
> before the other is created, full quantum correlations were observed **by 
> measuring the density matrix of the two photons, conditioned on the result 
> of the projecting measurement.*
>
> A demonstration of retrocausation (retrodependency). 
>
> @philipthrift
>

NO!! That violates Bell's inequalities and this measurement was done with 
the stats that violate Bell's inequalities.

LC
 

>
> On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 5:17:07 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>
>> This is interesting, where photons that existed at different times can be 
>> entangled.
>>
>> https://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.4191.pdf
>>
>> Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted 
>>
>> E. Megidish, A. Halevy, T. Shacham, T. Dvir, L. Dovrat, and H. S. 
>> Eisenberg 
>>
>> Racah Institute of Physics, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem 
>> 91904, Israel 
>>
>> The role of the timing and order of quantum measurements is not just a 
>> fundamental question of quantum mechanics, but also a puzzling one. Any 
>> part of a quantum system that has finished evolving, can be measured 
>> immediately or saved for later, without affecting the final results, 
>> regardless of the continued evolution of the rest of the system. In 
>> addition, the non-locality of quantum mechanics, as manifested by 
>> entanglement, does not apply only to particles with spatial separation, but 
>> also with temporal separation. Here we demonstrate these principles by 
>> generating and fully characterizing an entangled pair of photons that never 
>> coexisted. Using entanglement swapping between two temporally separated 
>> photon pairs we entangle one photon from the first pair with another photon 
>> from the second pair. The first photon was detected even before the other 
>> was created. The observed quantum correlations manifest the non-locality of 
>> quantum mechanics in spacetime. 
>>
>

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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

[Philip Thrift]

*In conclusion, we have demonstrated quantum entanglement between two 
photons that do not share coexistence. Although one photon is measured even 
before the other is created, full quantum correlations were observed **by 
measuring the density matrix of the two photons, conditioned on the result 
of the projecting measurement.*

A demonstration of retrocausation (retrodependency). 

@philipthrift

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 5:17:07 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> This is interesting, where photons that existed at different times can be 
> entangled.
>
> https://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.4191.pdf
>
> Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted 
>
> E. Megidish, A. Halevy, T. Shacham, T. Dvir, L. Dovrat, and H. S. 
> Eisenberg 
>
> Racah Institute of Physics, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem 
> 91904, Israel 
>
> The role of the timing and order of quantum measurements is not just a 
> fundamental question of quantum mechanics, but also a puzzling one. Any 
> part of a quantum system that has finished evolving, can be measured 
> immediately or saved for later, without affecting the final results, 
> regardless of the continued evolution of the rest of the system. In 
> addition, the non-locality of quantum mechanics, as manifested by 
> entanglement, does not apply only to particles with spatial separation, but 
> also with temporal separation. Here we demonstrate these principles by 
> generating and fully characterizing an entangled pair of photons that never 
> coexisted. Using entanglement swapping between two temporally separated 
> photon pairs we entangle one photon from the first pair with another photon 
> from the second pair. The first photon was detected even before the other 
> was created. The observed quantum correlations manifest the non-locality of 
> quantum mechanics in spacetime. 
>

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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

['Chris de Morsella' via Everything List]

Very spooky stuff.
Quoting from the paper Nevertheless, photons 1 and 4exhibit quantum 
correlations despite the fact that theynever coexisted.


  From: Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2015 11:09 AM
 Subject: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted
   
In the scenario we present here, measuring the last photonaffects the physical 
description of the first photonin the past, before it has even been measured. 
Thus,the ”spooky action” is steering the system’s past.
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.4191v1.pdf
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Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

[LizR]

This appears to fit in with Huw Price's suggestion that we take the time
reversibility of physics seriously.

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