Re: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi Phenomenal means physical objects as perceived by the senses. Noumenal means the physical processes or objects themselves. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/24/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Evgenii Rudnyi Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-23, 11:03:39 Subject: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism On 23.09.2012 15:05 Roger Clough said the following: > Hi Evgenii Rudnyi > > > Phenomena are the how physical processes appear to our senses. So > they are appearances, not the processes themselves. But scientific > experiments and measurements are not made on the appearances, they > are made on the processes. Thus the appearences areor [phenomena are > said to be "well-grounded" in the processes themselves. > > Kant spelled this out in great detail, calling "noumena" the actual > physical process which we cannot reach by our senses, and the > appearances of those noumena to the senses he called "phenomena". > That's fine. My question then would be as follows. When you talk about physical >PHYSICAL (within spacetime): Anything with dimensions, do you mean "noumena" or "phenomena"? Evgenii -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism
On Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:06:55 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: > > Hi Evgenii Rudnyi > > > Phenomena are the how physical processes appear to our senses. > So they are appearances, not the processes themselves. > But scientific experiments and measurements are not > made on the appearances, they are made on the > processes. Thus the appearences areor [phenomena > are said to be "well-grounded" in the processes themselves. > > Kant spelled this out in great detail, calling "noumena" the > actual physical process which we cannot reach by our senses, > and the appearances of those noumena to the senses > he called "phenomena". > Yes, but my hypothesis points to an entirely new picture of cosmos and psyche which explains the relation more clearly. Everything is both noumenal and phenomenal. Every noumenon of yours is a phenomenon from my perspective and vice versa. Multisense realism reinterprets those ideas of Locke and Kant which see the universe as a schema in which things can be more and less real, into one in which realism itself is a qualitative value exposed by agreements between multiple channels of sense experience. Dreams are real dreams, not fake realities. Not Primary and Secondary qualities, but a spectrum with both a private temporal range and a public spatial range. Not synthetic and analytic but algebraic-gestalt and topological-geometric. Not a priori and a posteriori but a spectrum of sense access ranging from direct to indirect, inferred, intuited, and undetected. You should understand that my intention is to throw out all philosophy and physics interpretations and start completely over from scratch. I reject all previous assumptions about the cosmos and consciousness and create entirely new ones that make more sense. Craig > the following content - > From: Evgenii Rudnyi > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-09-22, 09:26:55 > Subject: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism > > > On 22.09.2012 14:09 Roger Clough said the following: > > Hi Evgenii Rudnyi > > > > Following Leibniz and Kant, what we see in the case of the table is > > a "well-grounded phenomenon". That is, we do not see the table > > itself, but as it appears to our senses. But the table is not an > > illusion, it really is there, and we can place a pitchure of milk on > > it with no problem and knock on its surface. > > Now we should say where in the physical space this "well-grounded > phenomenon" is located. Otherwise we will have a problem with > > PHYSICAL (within spacetime) > > Evgenii > > > > > > > > Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net 9/22/2012 "Forever is a > long time, > > especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > > > > - Receiving the following content - From: Evgenii Rudnyi > > Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-22, 07:29:27 Subject: Re: > > Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism > > > > > > On 22.09.2012 11:48 Roger Clough said the following: > >> Hi Craig Weinberg > >> > >> I would classify your items as follows: > >> > >> MENTAL (outside of spacetime) : All experiences, dreams, > >> delusions, information, mathematics, logic, time, space, feelings, > >> thoughts, ideas, numbers, life itself, God, monads, mathematics, > >> physical laws themselves, theory of any type. > >> > >> PHYSICAL (within spacetime): Anything with dimensions, anything > >> you can measure with physical instruments (even indirectly), weigh > >> or see under a microscope or telescope, mass, energy, force, > >> velocity, time, distance, voltage, optical or sound intensity, wave > >> amplitude, dna type, cancer type, living tissue, dead tissue, flesh > >> (brain). > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to > everyth...@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-li...@googlegroups.com . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/Jx5TSigebVIJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi Phenomena are the how physical processes appear to our senses. So they are appearances, not the processes themselves. But scientific experiments and measurements are not made on the appearances, they are made on the processes. Thus the appearences areor [phenomena are said to be "well-grounded" in the processes themselves. Kant spelled this out in great detail, calling "noumena" the actual physical process which we cannot reach by our senses, and the appearances of those noumena to the senses he called "phenomena". the following content - From: Evgenii Rudnyi Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-22, 09:26:55 Subject: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism On 22.09.2012 14:09 Roger Clough said the following: > Hi Evgenii Rudnyi > > Following Leibniz and Kant, what we see in the case of the table is > a "well-grounded phenomenon". That is, we do not see the table > itself, but as it appears to our senses. But the table is not an > illusion, it really is there, and we can place a pitchure of milk on > it with no problem and knock on its surface. Now we should say where in the physical space this "well-grounded phenomenon" is located. Otherwise we will have a problem with PHYSICAL (within spacetime) Evgenii > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/22/2012 "Forever is a long time, > especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > - Receiving the following content - From: Evgenii Rudnyi > Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-22, 07:29:27 Subject: Re: > Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism > > > On 22.09.2012 11:48 Roger Clough said the following: >> Hi Craig Weinberg >> >> I would classify your items as follows: >> >> MENTAL (outside of spacetime) : All experiences, dreams, >> delusions, information, mathematics, logic, time, space, feelings, >> thoughts, ideas, numbers, life itself, God, monads, mathematics, >> physical laws themselves, theory of any type. >> >> PHYSICAL (within spacetime): Anything with dimensions, anything >> you can measure with physical instruments (even indirectly), weigh >> or see under a microscope or telescope, mass, energy, force, >> velocity, time, distance, voltage, optical or sound intensity, wave >> amplitude, dna type, cancer type, living tissue, dead tissue, flesh >> (brain). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism
Hi Roger, My hypothesis is that the grouping of space and time together is a function of the exterior public realism view, not a primitive reality. The bigger picture is that while quantitatively seamless, time and space are (obviously) experientially perpendicular qualities. Astrophysics makes sense for astrophysical computations, but that view of the universe is one in which we can ever participate in personally. We can understand astrophysics, and predict and control matter, but we will always directly experience space and time as experiential formats which are as opposite as they could possibly be. With multisense realism, we can group together any of the primitive categories of space, time, matter, energy, sense, motive, entropy, and significance and get sensible juxtapositions with the remaining categories. That's the way it works. If you say space is time, then you are saying matter is energy and experience doesn't exist. If you say entropy is significance then space and time become concretely real information, and matter and energy become the dumb vehicles. It's like a balloon wherever you mentally pinch the monad, the opposite side will seem to bulge out. Craig On Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:46:15 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: > > Hi Craig Weinberg > > Yes, time and space have to be together to be in spacetime. > This is just basic astrophysics. > > > > Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net > 9/23/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > - Receiving the following content - > From: Craig Weinberg > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-09-22, 10:53:02 > Subject: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism > > > > > On Saturday, September 22, 2012 5:49:49 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: > Hi Craig Weinberg > > I would classify your items as follows: > > MENTAL (outside of spacetime) : All experiences, dreams, delusions, > information, mathematics, logic, time, > space, feelings, thoughts, ideas, numbers, life itself, God, monads, > mathematics, physical laws themselves, > theory of any type. > > > Huh? You are classifying "time, space" as "(outside of spacetime)". > > If we recognize that experiences and dreams, feelings, thoughts, ideas, > life itself, rely on significance which builds through story-like > relations, and that they are not only cognitive but wordlessly emotional > then I don't think that "MENTAL" is a meaningful category nor is it correct > to consider these things separate from time. God, monads, physical laws, > logic, mathematics, information, theories, etc are accessed through > experiences in time, but represent space-like cognitive level qualia. > > > > PHYSICAL (within spacetime): Anything with dimensions, anything you can > measure with physical instruments > (even indirectly), weigh or see under a microscope or telescope, mass, > energy, force, velocity, time, distance, > voltage, optical or sound intensity, wave amplitude, dna type, cancer > type, living tissue, dead tissue, > flesh (brain). > > > I reject the assumption that the experiential aspects are not 'physical' > since our feelings and thoughts are profoundly and directly affected by > physical changes. It makes more sense to understand that the difference is > in public persistence across space as bodies as opposed to private > experience through time as significance. > > Craig > > > > > Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net > 9/22/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > = > - Receiving the following content - > From: Craig Weinberg > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-09-21, 10:58:11 > Subject: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism > > > I see all of our experiences, including dreams and delusions as being > physical, but not necessarily ?eal?. To me, realism is a loose term > describing the ?iddle of the road? range of experiences in which bodies and > minds are clearly separate. The contrasting ?nreal? ranges are the > profoundly spiritual/psychedelic/psychotic experiences and the profoundly > logical/mathematical/abstracted principles, both of which can be understood > as signifying real or more-than-real referents. > Physical (< Unrealism of Logic < Realism of Bodies and Space ? Realism of > Experiences and Time > Unrealism of Psyche >)* > Metaphysical = Hypothetically outside of spacetime and matter. > Energy = Logical conceptualization of the perception and participation of > material bodies in spacetime. > Information = Logical conceptualization of logic in spacetime. > Logic = Phenomenology turned in on itself - subjectivity that seeks to > evacuate subjectivity of itself, leaving purely universal and involuntary > truths as a residual product. > Psyche = Deep phenomenology. Unconstrained by logic, subjectivity is fr
Re: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism
Hi Craig Weinberg Yes, time and space have to be together to be in spacetime. This is just basic astrophysics. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/23/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-22, 10:53:02 Subject: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism On Saturday, September 22, 2012 5:49:49 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg I would classify your items as follows: MENTAL (outside of spacetime) : All experiences, dreams, delusions, information, mathematics, logic, time, space, feelings, thoughts, ideas, numbers, life itself, God, monads, mathematics, physical laws themselves, theory of any type. Huh? You are classifying "time, space" as "(outside of spacetime)". If we recognize that experiences and dreams, feelings, thoughts, ideas, life itself, rely on significance which builds through story-like relations, and that they are not only cognitive but wordlessly emotional then I don't think that "MENTAL" is a meaningful category nor is it correct to consider these things separate from time. God, monads, physical laws, logic, mathematics, information, theories, etc are accessed through experiences in time, but represent space-like cognitive level qualia. PHYSICAL (within spacetime): Anything with dimensions, anything you can measure with physical instruments (even indirectly), weigh or see under a microscope or telescope, mass, energy, force, velocity, time, distance, voltage, optical or sound intensity, wave amplitude, dna type, cancer type, living tissue, dead tissue, flesh (brain). I reject the assumption that the experiential aspects are not 'physical' since our feelings and thoughts are profoundly and directly affected by physical changes. It makes more sense to understand that the difference is in public persistence across space as bodies as opposed to private experience through time as significance. Craig Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net 9/22/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen = - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-21, 10:58:11 Subject: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism I see all of our experiences, including dreams and delusions as being physical, but not necessarily ?eal?. To me, realism is a loose term describing the ?iddle of the road? range of experiences in which bodies and minds are clearly separate. The contrasting ?nreal? ranges are the profoundly spiritual/psychedelic/psychotic experiences and the profoundly logical/mathematical/abstracted principles, both of which can be understood as signifying real or more-than-real referents. Physical (< Unrealism of Logic < Realism of Bodies and Space ? Realism of Experiences and Time > Unrealism of Psyche >)* Metaphysical = Hypothetically outside of spacetime and matter. Energy = Logical conceptualization of the perception and participation of material bodies in spacetime. Information = Logical conceptualization of logic in spacetime. Logic = Phenomenology turned in on itself - subjectivity that seeks to evacuate subjectivity of itself, leaving purely universal and involuntary truths as a residual product. Psyche = Deep phenomenology. Unconstrained by logic, subjectivity is free to sense and dream itself into transpersonal and near-metaphysical ranges of experience. * This is the Multisense Continuum, which is involuted like a Mobius strip, and can be shuffled and turned around: < Unrealism of Logic < Realism of Bodies and Space ? Realism of Experiences and Time > Unrealism of Psyche > (? = ?erpendicular/orthogonal fold? relation of Pedestrian Realism, ie supermarket reality). ? Realism of Experiences and Time > Unrealism of Psyche > < Unrealism of Logic < Realism of Bodies and Space ? (> < = ?vanescent dissolve? relation of Profound Unrealism, ie hypnogogic trance, epiphany, transcendence, enlightnenment) The contemporary cosmology I would describe this way: Information Laws of Physics > Energy Matter ? Space Time The problems with this are embodied as problems with Idealism, Materialism, and Infocentrism, with each being unable to account for the prominence of the other without disqualifying it. Materialism makes information and subjectivity unreal, Idealism makes matter and spacetime unreal, Infocentricism makes matter and subjectivity unreal. Each of these three views have a blind spot for their own bias, which becomes pathological when applied in a thoroughly literal way to the the universe. Living beings become indistinguishable from programmed robots and animated cadavers. The world becomes an illusion conjurable by codes. We paint ourselves into a corne
Re: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi Following Leibniz and Kant, what we see in the case of the table is a "well-grounded phenomenon". That is, we do not see the table itself, but as it appears to our senses. But the table is not an illusion, it really is there, and we can place a pitchure of milk on it with no problem and knock on its surface. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/22/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Evgenii Rudnyi Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-22, 07:29:27 Subject: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism On 22.09.2012 11:48 Roger Clough said the following: > Hi Craig Weinberg > > I would classify your items as follows: > > MENTAL (outside of spacetime) : All experiences, dreams, delusions, > information, mathematics, logic, time, space, feelings, thoughts, > ideas, numbers, life itself, God, monads, mathematics, physical laws > themselves, theory of any type. > > PHYSICAL (within spacetime): Anything with dimensions, anything you > can measure with physical instruments (even indirectly), weigh or see > under a microscope or telescope, mass, energy, force, velocity, time, > distance, voltage, optical or sound intensity, wave amplitude, dna > type, cancer type, living tissue, dead tissue, flesh (brain). > Let us take a table, it seems to be a good example of a physical object with dimensions that we could measure. Yet, it is unclear to me what happens when I watch the table. Does I perceive it directly? Or alternatively does I observe just my perceptions of the table? In other worlds, do you assume direct or indirect realism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_and_indirect_realism Evgenii -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
