Hi Roger,

My hypothesis is that the grouping of space and time together is a function 
of the exterior public realism view, not a primitive reality. The bigger 
picture is that while quantitatively seamless, time and space are 
(obviously) experientially perpendicular qualities. Astrophysics makes 
sense for astrophysical computations, but that view of the universe is one 
in which we can ever participate in personally. We can understand 
astrophysics, and predict and control matter, but we will always directly 
experience space and time as experiential formats which are as opposite as 
they could possibly be.

With multisense realism, we can group together any of the primitive 
categories of space, time, matter, energy, sense, motive, entropy, and 
significance and get sensible juxtapositions with the remaining categories. 
That's the way it works. If you say space is time, then you are saying 
matter is energy and experience doesn't exist. If you say entropy is 
significance then space and time become concretely real information, and 
matter and energy become the dumb vehicles. It's like a balloon wherever 
you mentally pinch the monad, the opposite side will seem to bulge out.

Craig



On Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:46:15 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
>
> Hi Craig Weinberg   
>
> Yes, time and space have to be together to be in spacetime. 
> This is just basic astrophysics.   
>
>
>
> Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net <javascript:> 
> 9/23/2012   
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
>
>
> ----- Receiving the following content -----   
> From: Craig Weinberg   
> Receiver: everything-list   
> Time: 2012-09-22, 10:53:02 
> Subject: Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism 
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 5:49:49 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: 
> Hi Craig Weinberg   
>
> I would classify your items as follows:   
>
> MENTAL (outside of spacetime) :  All experiences, dreams, delusions, 
> information, mathematics, logic, time,   
> space, feelings, thoughts, ideas, numbers, life itself, God, monads, 
> mathematics, physical laws themselves,   
> theory of any type.   
>
>
> Huh? You are classifying "time, space" as "(outside of spacetime)". 
>
> If we recognize that experiences and dreams, feelings, thoughts, ideas, 
> life itself, rely on significance which builds through story-like 
> relations, and that they are not only cognitive but wordlessly emotional 
> then I don't think that "MENTAL" is a meaningful category nor is it correct 
> to consider these things separate from time. God, monads, physical laws, 
> logic, mathematics, information, theories, etc are accessed through 
> experiences in time, but represent space-like cognitive level qualia. 
>   
>
>   
> PHYSICAL (within spacetime): Anything with dimensions, anything you can 
> measure with physical instruments   
> (even indirectly), weigh or see under a microscope or telescope, mass, 
> energy, force, velocity, time, distance,   
> voltage, optical or sound intensity, wave amplitude, dna type, cancer 
> type, living tissue, dead tissue,   
> flesh (brain).   
>
>
> I reject the assumption that the experiential aspects are not 'physical' 
> since our feelings and thoughts are profoundly and directly affected by 
> physical changes. It makes more sense to understand that the difference is 
> in public persistence across space as bodies as opposed to private 
> experience through time as significance. 
>
> Craig 
>
>   
>
>
> Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net   
> 9/22/2012     
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen   
>
> =====================================================================   
> ----- Receiving the following content -----     
> From: Craig Weinberg     
> Receiver: everything-list     
> Time: 2012-09-21, 10:58:11   
> Subject: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism   
>
>
> I see all of our experiences, including dreams and delusions as being 
> physical, but not necessarily ?eal?. To me, realism is a loose term 
> describing the ?iddle of the road? range of experiences in which bodies and 
> minds are clearly separate. The contrasting ?nreal? ranges are the 
> profoundly spiritual/psychedelic/psychotic experiences and the profoundly 
> logical/mathematical/abstracted principles, both of which can be understood 
> as signifying real or more-than-real referents.   
> Physical (< Unrealism of Logic < Realism of Bodies and Space ? Realism of 
> Experiences and Time > Unrealism of Psyche >)*   
> Metaphysical = Hypothetically outside of spacetime and matter.   
> Energy = Logical conceptualization of the perception and participation of 
> material bodies in spacetime.   
> Information = Logical conceptualization of logic in spacetime.   
> Logic = Phenomenology turned in on itself - subjectivity that seeks to 
> evacuate subjectivity of itself, leaving purely universal and involuntary 
> truths as a residual product.   
> Psyche = Deep phenomenology. Unconstrained by logic, subjectivity is free 
> to sense and dream itself into transpersonal and near-metaphysical ranges 
> of experience.   
>
>
> * This is the Multisense Continuum, which is involuted like a Mobius 
> strip, and can be shuffled and turned around:   
> < Unrealism of Logic   
> < Realism of Bodies and Space ? Realism of Experiences and Time >   
> Unrealism of Psyche >   
> (? = ?erpendicular/orthogonal fold? relation of Pedestrian Realism, ie 
> supermarket reality).   
>
> ? Realism of Experiences and Time >   
> Unrealism of Psyche > < Unrealism of Logic   
> < Realism of Bodies and Space ?   
> (> < = ?vanescent dissolve? relation of Profound Unrealism, ie hypnogogic 
> trance, epiphany, transcendence, enlightnenment)   
>
> The contemporary cosmology I would describe this way:   
>
> Information   Laws of Physics > Energy   Matter  ?  Space   Time     
>
> The problems with this are embodied as problems with Idealism, 
> Materialism, and Infocentrism, with each being unable to account for the 
> prominence of the other without disqualifying it. Materialism makes 
> information and subjectivity unreal, Idealism makes matter and spacetime 
> unreal, Infocentricism makes matter and subjectivity unreal.   
>
> Each of these three views have a blind spot for their own bias, which 
> becomes pathological when applied in a thoroughly literal way to the the 
> universe. Living beings become indistinguishable from programmed robots and 
> animated cadavers. The world becomes an illusion conjurable by codes. We 
> paint ourselves into a corner so that we are forced to conceive of 
> ourselves paradoxically as epiphenomenal voyeurs yet inevitably omnipotent 
> masters of the universe and ourselves.   
>
> My approach, of course, is to weigh anchor with sense itself, as the 
> primordial prerequisite of being and doing that is beneath and above all 
> forms, materials, spaces, times, and subjective experiences. A neutral 
> monism which projects itself within itself, always through juxtaposed 
> experiences. Sense puts the 'in' into information and makes structures 
> matter.   
>
>
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