Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 6 Aug 2018, at 21:11, Brent Meeker  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/6/2018 11:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 6 Aug 2018, at 09:23, agrayson2...@gmail.com 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 5:50:56 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> 
 On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
 
 AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
 the wave function has only epistemic content.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. 
>>> Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you 
>>> have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply 
>>> to us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less 
>>> ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, 
>>> and some others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken 
>>> seriously by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously 
>>> that idea would be inconsistent with Mechanism.
>>> 
>>> Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do repeated 
>>> trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is finished. I 
>>> forget; what is mechanism? AG 
>>> 
>>> There is no probability waves.
>>> 
>>> IIUC, the wf has the mathematical form of a wave, of which the amplitude is 
>>> part of. AG
>> 
>> The point is that it behave also like a wave. Even if I send only one 
>> particle, the position of the screen is determine by a wave which take into 
>> account all physical available path. 
>> 
>> You have proposed an instrumentalist interpretation, and that is OK if you 
>> goal is to build microscopic transistor or atomic bombs. Here we try to make 
>> sense of a theory. The choice is between a non-local guiding potential, the 
>> relative states or a (magical) collapse, also non local.
> 
> You want to make sense of a theory that is defined by complex valued fields 
> in a Hilbert space built on spacetime.  You begin by assuming mechanism,


Not in this thread. I am just discussing the MW theory. My point is only that 

QM + collapse entails physical FTL. If you prefer: QM+collapse is not covariant.

QM-without-collapse entails *apparent FTL* but no real FTL, and is a covariant 
theory.



> which implicitly replaces everything physical, including the spacetime, with 
> conscious thoughts which are realized as theorems in arithmetic (or 
> equivalent computation).  You have not shown how this entails conscious 
> thoughts about a quasi-classical world, i.e. one in which there appears a 
> shared reality. So wouldn't it be simpler to just adopt the interpretation of 
> QBism.  It seems compatible with the idea of a computational substrate, but 
> it doesn't need to assume one.  That fact tells me the computational 
> substrate is an independent assumption that does not follow from QM.

QM without collapse use Mechanism, and Mechanism implies that only numbers (or 
only combinators, …) exist. We have to explain the illusion of matter from only 
addition and multiplication of natural numbers (or from only K and S and the 
two axioms I have given).

Bruno



> 
> Brent
> 
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Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 7 Aug 2018, at 22:25, Brent Meeker  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/7/2018 4:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 7 Aug 2018, at 01:33, Brent Meeker >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 8/5/2018 9:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
 
> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrayson2...@gmail.com 
>  wrote:
> 
> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
> the wave function has only epistemic content.
 
 
 Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature.
>>> ??  The epistemic content IS how interference occurs in nature.  The wave 
>>> function is one's estimation/knowledge of how events will infold, including 
>>> intereference.
>> 
>> That will follow from mechanism indeed, but is not the standard way most 
>> people interpret the physical laws. The *physical* antic will indeed be 
>> epistemic, but that is what we need to test (and indeed the quantum confirms 
>> this, but you give the answer before the question). What I meant is that the 
>> quantum wave has to be taken as real, as we can put it in a box and send it 
>> to a colleague to ask if he get the same results.
> 
> The epistemic view is that he will get the same result only if he has the 
> same information, which is represented in his calculation of the wave 
> function. 

OK if the result is some distribution of probability, or a statement like the 
particle will never get this position (P = 0). Typically same wave does not 
entail same individual results.



> That's the idea of QBism.  The probabilistic nature of QM allows that persons 
> with different information can still get a result consistent with both wf.  
> It is different from the early ideas of consciousness collapses the wf in 
> that it supposes a wf is relative to a person and so its collapse is also 
> relative to a particular person observing a result.

OK. So QBism is mechanist-friendly.

> 
> I would think this interpretation would be close to your ideas in that it 
> keeps a close link between individual consciousness and QM, i.e. there is a 
> relative state even before observation.

OK.

Bruno



> 
> Brent
> 
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Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Brent Meeker]

On 8/7/2018 4:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 7 Aug 2018, at 01:33, Brent Meeker > wrote:




On 8/5/2018 9:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrayson2...@gmail.com 
 wrote:


AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I 
conclude the wave function has only epistemic content.



Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in 
nature.
??  The epistemic content IS how interference occurs in nature.  The 
wave function is one's estimation/knowledge of how events will 
infold, including intereference.


That will follow from mechanism indeed, but is not the standard way 
most people interpret the physical laws. The *physical* antic will 
indeed be epistemic, but that is what we need to test (and indeed the 
quantum confirms this, but you give the answer before the question). 
What I meant is that the quantum wave has to be taken as real, as we 
can put it in a box and send it to a colleague to ask if he get the 
same results.


The epistemic view is that he will get the same result only if he has 
the same information, which is represented in his calculation of the 
wave function.  That's the idea of QBism.  The probabilistic nature of 
QM allows that persons with different information can still get a result 
consistent with both wf.  It is different from the early ideas of 
consciousness collapses the wf in that it supposes a wf is relative to a 
person and so its collapse is also relative to a particular person 
observing a result.


I would think this interpretation would be close to your ideas in that 
it keeps a close link between individual consciousness and QM, i.e. 
there is a relative state even before observation.


Brent

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Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 7 Aug 2018, at 01:33, Brent Meeker  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/5/2018 9:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrayson2...@gmail.com 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
>>> the wave function has only epistemic content.
>> 
>> 
>> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature.
> ??  The epistemic content IS how interference occurs in nature.  The wave 
> function is one's estimation/knowledge of how events will infold, including 
> intereference.

That will follow from mechanism indeed, but is not the standard way most people 
interpret the physical laws. The *physical* antic will indeed be epistemic, but 
that is what we need to test (and indeed the quantum confirms this, but you 
give the answer before the question). What I meant is that the quantum wave has 
to be taken as real, as we can put it in a box and send it to a colleague to 
ask if he get the same results. It is not like the subjective probabilities 
based on ignorance and big numbers like in statistical physics. 




> 
>> Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you 
>> have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply to 
>> us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less 
>> ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, 
>> and some others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken 
>> seriously by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously that 
>> idea would be inconsistent with Mechanism.
>> 
>> There is no probability waves. There is only an amplitude of probability 
>> wave, and the weirdness is that we have strong indirect evidence that the 
>> amplitude of that wave is as physically real as the particles that we can 
>> observe, because the particle location is determined by that wave having 
>> interfered like wave usually do. In particular, even if send one by one, the 
>> particles will never been found where the wave interfere destructively, and 
>> the pattern on the screen will reflect the number of holes, and their 
>> disposition. 
> 
> That's like arguing that the map is the territory because if you follow it 
> you get where you want to go.

?

I don’t see that at all. It is more saying that the map is correct as it 
indicates where we can visit this and that, and indeed, all participant 
acknowledge that it is the case. 

Again I discuss physics here, not Mechanism. 

Bruno




> 
> Brent
> 
>> 
>> It is OK to say that probability comes from ignorance, and that the wave 
>> describe that ignorance, the extraordinary thing is then that  this 
>> ignorance interfere independently of you.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> So I have embraced the "shut up and calculate" interpretation of the wave 
>>> function.
>> 
>> 
>> That can be wise. Nobody can enforce the search of the truth. It is 
>> frustrating because we can’t be sure if we progress toward it or the 
>> contrary, and it is shocking because truth always beat fictions.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> I also see a connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump 
>>> sycophants; they seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of 
>>> thinking copies of observers can occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG
>> 
>> That remark deserves your point and diminish your credibility. It also 
>> suggests that you are a “True Believer” in something.
>> 
>> Assuming Mechanism in cognitive science, you don’t need quantum mechanics to 
>> understand that there are infinitely many relative computational states 
>> corresponding to you here and now emulated by infinitely many universal 
>> machines.
> 
> No, but you need to believe that abstractions like universal Turing machines 
> exist and are running a UD and that you and your whole world are just 
> computations. 
> 
> Brent
> 
>> Even without mechanism this is a theorem of arithmetic using only Church 
>> thesis. With mechanism, we have to derive the “guessable wave" from a 
>> statistics on those computations, and so we can test Mechanism if it leads 
>> to more, or less extravaganza than Nature. It fits up to now. So with 
>> Mechanism, we get the *appearance* of many interfering “worlds”, and this 
>> without any worlds, from just the natural numbers and the laws of addition 
>> and multiplication. I will show that with the combinators as it is much 
>> shorter (but still long) than showing this with the numbers. This is known 
>> by logicians since the 1930s (I mean that a universal Turing machine is an 
>> arithmetical object). Computationalism, or Indexical Digital Mechanism 
>> imposes a Many-Dreams internal interpretation of Arithmetic (or combinator 
>> theory, or game-of-life theory, … we have to assume only one universal 
>> machinery).
>> 
>> Bruno
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 

Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 6 Aug 2018, at 22:47, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 6:22:45 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 6 Aug 2018, at 09:23, agrays...@gmail.com  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 5:50:56 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>> 
>>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
>>> the wave function has only epistemic content.
>> 
>> 
>> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. 
>> Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you 
>> have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply to 
>> us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less 
>> ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, 
>> and some others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken 
>> seriously by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously that 
>> idea would be inconsistent with Mechanism.
>> 
>> Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do repeated 
>> trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is finished. I 
>> forget; what is mechanism? AG 
>> 
>> There is no probability waves.
>> 
>> IIUC, the wf has the mathematical form of a wave, of which the amplitude is 
>> part of. AG
> 
> The point is that it behave also like a wave. Even if I send only one 
> particle, the position of the screen is determine by a wave which take into 
> account all physical available path. 
> 
> You have proposed an instrumentalist interpretation, and that is OK if you 
> goal is to build microscopic transistor or atomic bombs. Here we try to make 
> sense of a theory. The choice is between a non-local guiding potential, the 
> relative states or a (magical) collapse, also non local.
> 
> 
> 
>>  
>> There is only an amplitude of probability wave, and the weirdness is that we 
>> have strong indirect evidence that the amplitude of that wave is as 
>> physically real as the particles that we can observe, because the particle 
>> location is determined by that wave having interfered like wave usually do. 
>> In particular, even if send one by one, the particles will never been found 
>> where the wave interfere destructively, and the pattern on the screen will 
>> reflect the number of holes, and their disposition. 
>> 
>> The fact that the wf gives information about the constructive and 
>> destructive inference pattern on the screen, say, is within the meaning of 
>> having an epistemic property.
> 
> Not at all. It is based on inter-observer sharable documentation. The whole 
> mystery is in the double slit, or all the many-slits elaboration, like the 
> “joke” of Feynman asking what if we put slit everywhere.
>> If you want to claim it has ontic property, you need to define what that 
>> means. AG
> 
> That it predicts result sharable by many people, who can then repeat the 
> experience, and see indeed that te arrival or non arrival of one election 
> depend on the sum of the amplitude of the happening events relative to 
> sharable device and device plan.
> 
> Epistemic has this property.You haven't distinguished epistemic from ontic.


I did, but perhaps you have other definitions. You might give them for 
proceeding.




> If you want to know what's "real", or ontic, compare an EM wave with a 
> probability wave. In the former case it can be detected when it passes, say 
> with an antenna, in the latter case not.

The “probability wave” can de detected by the interference fringe. 



> No device exists that can detect a probability wave when it passes. AG 

Two slits or an interferometer do that all the time. That is why we postulate 
the wave to begin with.

I really insist that you bought the little book by David Albert “Quantum 
Mechanics and Experience” (Harvard University Press, 1992). That would be a 
good base to progress in the discussion. 

Bruno





> 
> If this contains epistemic (and it does with mechanism), that epistemic part 
> can share the fact that some happening, and perhaps all, is a sum on 
> infinitely many virtual path. With mechanism, there might still be too much 
> parts, but that is testable.
> 
> Bruno
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> It is OK to say that probability comes from ignorance, and that the wave 
>> describe that ignorance, the extraordinary thing is then that  this 
>> ignorance interfere independently of you.
>>> So I have embraced the "shut up and calculate" interpretation of the wave 
>>> function.
>> That can be wise. Nobody can enforce the search of the truth. It is 
>> frustrating because we can’t be sure if we progress toward it or the 
>> contrary, and it is shocking because truth always beat fictions.
>>> I also see a connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump 

Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 6 Aug 2018, at 22:37, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 6:22:45 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 6 Aug 2018, at 09:23, agrays...@gmail.com  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 5:50:56 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>> 
>>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
>>> the wave function has only epistemic content.
>> 
>> 
>> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. 
>> Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you 
>> have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply to 
>> us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less 
>> ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, 
>> and some others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken 
>> seriously by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously that 
>> idea would be inconsistent with Mechanism.
>> 
>> Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do repeated 
>> trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is finished. I 
>> forget; what is mechanism? AG 
>> 
>> There is no probability waves.
>> 
>> IIUC, the wf has the mathematical form of a wave, of which the amplitude is 
>> part of. AG
> 
> The point is that it behave also like a wave.
> 
> Yes, we all know that, but above you assert there are no probability waves -- 
> but mathematically they exist, but no one has ever seen one. That's MY point! 
> AG

The expression probability wave is bad. Only the amplitude oscillate and 
interfere. The probability is the square of the amplitude, which typically do 
not behave as a wave. If you track the particles, you see a particles, going 
through one slit, and the interference fringe disappear. Some would say that 
nature behave like a wave, when fuming not observed, but that makes not much 
sense. No such problem with the relative-state theory, as far as I can see, 
except for the mind-body problem, but that is another story.

Bruno







> 
> Even if I send only one particle, the position of the screen is determine by 
> a wave which take into account all physical available path. 
> 
> You have proposed an instrumentalist interpretation, and that is OK if you 
> goal is to build microscopic transistor or atomic bombs. Here we try to make 
> sense of a theory. The choice is between a non-local guiding potential, the 
> relative states or a (magical) collapse, also non local.
> 
> 
> 
>>  
>> There is only an amplitude of probability wave, and the weirdness is that we 
>> have strong indirect evidence that the amplitude of that wave is as 
>> physically real as the particles that we can observe, because the particle 
>> location is determined by that wave having interfered like wave usually do. 
>> In particular, even if send one by one, the particles will never been found 
>> where the wave interfere destructively, and the pattern on the screen will 
>> reflect the number of holes, and their disposition. 
>> 
>> The fact that the wf gives information about the constructive and 
>> destructive inference pattern on the screen, say, is within the meaning of 
>> having an epistemic property.
> 
> Not at all. It is based on inter-observer sharable documentation. The whole 
> mystery is in the double slit, or all the many-slits elaboration, like the 
> “joke” of Feynman asking what if we put slit everywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> If you want to claim it has ontic property, you need to define what that 
>> means. AG 
> 
> 
> That it predicts result sharable by many people, who can then repeat the 
> experience, and see indeed that te arrival or non arrival of one election 
> depend on the sum of the amplitude of the happening events relative to 
> sharable device and device plan.
> 
> If this contains epistemic (and it does with mechanism), that epistemic part 
> can share the fact that some happening, and perhaps all, is a sum on 
> infinitely many virtual path. With mechanism, there might still be too much 
> parts, but that is testable.
> 
> Bruno
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> It is OK to say that probability comes from ignorance, and that the wave 
>> describe that ignorance, the extraordinary thing is then that  this 
>> ignorance interfere independently of you.
>>> So I have embraced the "shut up and calculate" interpretation of the wave 
>>> function.
>> That can be wise. Nobody can enforce the search of the truth. It is 
>> frustrating because we can’t be sure if we progress toward it or the 
>> contrary, and it is shocking because truth always beat fictions.
>>> I also see a connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump 
>>> sycophants; they seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of 
>>> thinking 

Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 6 Aug 2018, at 20:31, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 5:50:58 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 5 Aug 2018, at 19:50, agrays...@gmail.com  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>> 
>>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
>>> the wave function has only epistemic content.
>> 
>> 
>> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. 
>> Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you 
>> have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply to 
>> us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less 
>> ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, 
>> and some others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken 
>> seriously by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously that 
>> idea would be inconsistent with Mechanism.
>> 
>> Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do repeated 
>> trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is finished.
> 
> The idea that consciousness collapses the wave is that the wave is described 
> by a sum of two waves which are the one diffracted by the two slits. The 
> *final* probability is the square of the amplitude on that screen, and the 
> absence of particles ever on some part of the screen is due to the 
> destructive interference of the wave. We have a superposition, and it works 
> because I have not been conscious of which path the particle has chosen. It 
> is the unconsciousness of which hole took the electron which interferes in 
> this picture, and consciousness which select the eigenstate in its favourite 
> base.
> 
> Consciousness used to be the explanation for collapse. When it doesn't work, 
> try unconsciousness. AG


It is the same theory. If consciousness is needed to actualise a particle 
position and preventing further interference, it is means that the interference 
are produced when we are not conscious of the path undertaken by the particles.

You don’t believe in that theory, and me neither, but the idea makes some sense 
at first sight, as only consciousness could reduce the wave packet in any 
theory which accept that the device and the body are made of matter obeying QM. 

Yet, that idea simply not works well when pushed on the details. That has been 
shown by Abner Shimony. Wigner and its Wigner’s friend illustrate already the 
problem for the use of consciousness to solve the QM (with collapse) 
interpretation problem.

Bruno




> 
> The idea is that if I look at u + d, QM describes that as O(u+d) = O u + O d. 
> The collapse is the inference that [1/sqrt(2)Ou + 1/sqrt(2)Od] collapses into 
> either Ou or Od with a probability (1/sqrt(2)^2. Everett is the theory that 
> there is no collapse, and it explains why the observer O will still describes 
> in its diary something like a collapse, using Mechanism (identifying a person 
> with its personal memory sequences of experiences, like looking at a particle 
> state)..
> 
> I think more and more that the appellation “Relativise state theory” is 
> better that many-worlds, because the notion of worlds is more tricky to 
> defined than the word “state”.
> 
> With mechanism we know at the start that the notion of world does not make 
> sense, there are only relative sharable dreams.
> 
> 
>> I forget; what is mechanism? AG 
> 
> 
> It is the hypothesis/theory/assumption that it exists a level of description 
> of your brain, or body (including any finite part of the environment if you 
> insist), such that a digital emulation executed by some physical computer, at 
> that level, would support your consciousness and subjective life and 
> character, etc. To simplify the reasoning I use often the brain metabolical 
> level, allowing you to survive with a digital brain. My contribution is that 
> entails you do survive also in the arithmetical reality, and that we have to 
> explain the origin of the wave trough a Pythagorean theology, and the work of 
> Gödel, Löb and Solovay provides exactly that, and the tests (the comparison 
> between the theological physics of the universal Turing machine with the 
> observation fits. The wave itself is a phenomenological first person plural 
> product on the sum of all universal machine computations/dreams.
> 
> Let me describe you the possible progress in the field, 
> 
> I. Copenhagen: the assumptions are
> 
> 1) the sigma_1 true propositions (a little part of arithmetic)
> 2) The SWE
> 3) a dualist unintelligible theory of mind
> 
> II. Everett: the assumptions are
> 
> 1) the sigma_1 true propositions
> 2) The SWE
> 3) Mechanism
> 
> III) … and you can see this as a problem to solve, but the propositional 
> parts can be shown offered on a plate by the (Löbian) Universal Machine:
> 
> 

Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 6 Aug 2018, at 21:11, Brent Meeker  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/6/2018 11:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 6 Aug 2018, at 09:23, agrayson2...@gmail.com 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 5:50:56 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> 
 On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
 
 AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
 the wave function has only epistemic content.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. 
>>> Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you 
>>> have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply 
>>> to us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less 
>>> ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, 
>>> and some others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken 
>>> seriously by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously 
>>> that idea would be inconsistent with Mechanism.
>>> 
>>> Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do repeated 
>>> trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is finished. I 
>>> forget; what is mechanism? AG 
>>> 
>>> There is no probability waves.
>>> 
>>> IIUC, the wf has the mathematical form of a wave, of which the amplitude is 
>>> part of. AG
>> 
>> The point is that it behave also like a wave. Even if I send only one 
>> particle, the position of the screen is determine by a wave which take into 
>> account all physical available path. 
>> 
>> You have proposed an instrumentalist interpretation, and that is OK if you 
>> goal is to build microscopic transistor or atomic bombs. Here we try to make 
>> sense of a theory. The choice is between a non-local guiding potential, the 
>> relative states or a (magical) collapse, also non local.
> 
> You want to make sense of a theory that is defined by complex valued fields 
> in a Hilbert space built on spacetime. 

In this thread, yes. We just discuss Everett’s QM theory.




> You begin by assuming mechanism,

Everett assumes it, more or less explicitly. The important idea is that he 
defines the personal identity by the personal diary of an observer involved in 
a superposition. 



> which implicitly replaces everything physical, including the spacetime, with 
> conscious thoughts which are realized as theorems in arithmetic (or 
> equivalent computation). 

Not in this thread, where we discuss QM, not Mechanism. That concerns my 
critics of Everett, and physicalist metaphysicians. Once we use a measure on 
computations, we must explain why the quantum computation win the measure on 
all sigma_1 sentences. That is what I ahem done.



> You have not shown how this entails conscious thoughts about a 
> quasi-classical world, i.e. one in which there appears a shared reality.

See my papers for the progress in that direction. The point is that there ara 
no other ways, and it works up to now. That just means that mechanism is 
confirmed and not yet refuted, unlike physicalism (when we assume mechanism of 
course).



> So wouldn't it be simpler to just adopt the interpretation of QBism.


I just forgot what you mean by that. Can you repeat it? Thanks.



>   It seems compatible with the idea of a computational substrate, but it 
> doesn't need to assume one. 


If you believe in the SWE, you need to believe in elementary arithmetic, and 
from that you can prove the existence of all computations, and you face the 
measure problem.


> That fact tells me the computational substrate is an independent assumption 
> that does not follow from QM.


There is no computational substrate, as with computationalism there is no 
notion of substrate which makes sense. Then in today’s QM, all hamiltonian used 
are computable. Logically, you are right, we can build ad hoc non computable 
wave function, but using them in a theory of mind is a bit like invoking a 
miracle.

Bruno




> 
> Brent
> 
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Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Brent Meeker]

On 8/5/2018 9:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrayson2...@gmail.com 
 wrote:


AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I 
conclude the wave function has only epistemic content.



Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature.
??  The epistemic content IS how interference occurs in nature.  The 
wave function is one's estimation/knowledge of how events will infold, 
including intereference.


Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as 
you have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does 
not apply to us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is 
perhaps the less ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by 
von Neumann, Wigner, and some others. But has been shown to lead to 
many difficulties when taken seriously by Abner Shimony, as well 
guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously that idea would be inconsistent 
with Mechanism.


There is no probability waves. There is only an amplitude of 
probability wave, and the weirdness is that we have strong indirect 
evidence that the amplitude of that wave is as physically real as the 
particles that we can observe, because the particle location is 
determined by that wave having interfered like wave usually do. In 
particular, even if send one by one, the particles will never been 
found where the wave interfere destructively, and the pattern on the 
screen will reflect the number of holes, and their disposition.


That's like arguing that the map is the territory because if you follow 
it you get where you want to go.


Brent



It is OK to say that probability comes from ignorance, and that the 
wave describe that ignorance, the extraordinary thing is then that 
 this ignorance interfere independently of you.






So I have embraced the "shut up and calculate" interpretation of the 
wave function.



That can be wise. Nobody can enforce the search of the truth. It is 
frustrating because we can’t be sure if we progress toward it or the 
contrary, and it is shocking because truth always beat fictions.




I also see a connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and 
Trump sycophants; they seem immune to simple facts, such as the 
foolishness of thinking copies of observers can occur, or be created, 
willy-nilly. AG


That remark deserves your point and diminish your credibility. It also 
suggests that you are a “True Believer” in something.


Assuming Mechanism in cognitive science, you don’t need quantum 
mechanics to understand that there are infinitely many relative 
computational states corresponding to you here and now emulated by 
infinitely many universal machines.


No, but you need to believe that abstractions like universal Turing 
machines exist and are running a UD and that you and your whole world 
are just computations.


Brent

Even without mechanism this is a theorem of arithmetic using only 
Church thesis. With mechanism, we have to derive the “guessable wave" 
from a statistics on those computations, and so we can test Mechanism 
if it leads to more, or less extravaganza than Nature. It fits up to 
now. So with Mechanism, we get the *appearance* of many interfering 
“worlds”, and this without any worlds, from just the natural numbers 
and the laws of addition and multiplication. I will show that with the 
combinators as it is much shorter (but still long) than showing this 
with the numbers. This is known by logicians since the 1930s (I mean 
that a universal Turing machine is an arithmetical object). 
Computationalism, or Indexical Digital Mechanism imposes a Many-Dreams 
internal interpretation of Arithmetic (or combinator theory, or 
game-of-life theory, … we have to assume only one universal machinery).


Bruno






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To 

Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[agrayson2000]

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 6:22:45 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 6 Aug 2018, at 09:23, agrays...@gmail.com  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 5:50:56 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I 
>>> conclude the wave function has only epistemic content.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. 
>>> Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you 
>>> have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply 
>>> to us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less 
>>> ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, 
>>> and some others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken 
>>> seriously by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously 
>>> that idea would be inconsistent with Mechanism.
>>>
>>
>> *Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do 
>> repeated trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is 
>> finished. I forget; what is mechanism? AG *
>>
>>>
>>> There is no probability waves.
>>>
>>
>
> *IIUC, the wf has the mathematical form of a wave, of which the amplitude 
> is part of. AG*
>
>
> The point is that it behave also like a wave. Even if I send only one 
> particle, the position of the screen is determine by a wave which take into 
> account all physical available path. 
>
> You have proposed an instrumentalist interpretation, and that is OK if you 
> goal is to build microscopic transistor or atomic bombs. Here we try to 
> make sense of a theory. The choice is between a non-local guiding 
> potential, the relative states or a (magical) collapse, also non local.
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>> There is only an amplitude of probability wave, and the weirdness is that 
>>> we have strong indirect evidence that the amplitude of that wave is as 
>>> physically real as the particles that we can observe, because the particle 
>>> location is determined by that wave having interfered like wave usually do. 
>>> In particular, even if send one by one, the particles will never been found 
>>> where the wave interfere destructively, and the pattern on the screen will 
>>> reflect the number of holes, and their disposition. 
>>>
>>
> *The fact that the wf gives information about the constructive and 
> destructive inference pattern on the screen, say, is within the meaning of 
> having an epistemic property. *
>
>
> Not at all. It is based on inter-observer sharable documentation. The 
> whole mystery is in the double slit, or all the many-slits elaboration, 
> like the “joke” of Feynman asking what if we put slit everywhere.
>
> *If you want to claim it has ontic property, you need to define what that 
> means. AG*
>
>
> That it predicts result sharable by many people, who can then repeat the 
> experience, and see indeed that te arrival or non arrival of one election 
> depend on the sum of the amplitude of the happening events relative to 
> sharable device and device plan.
>

*Epistemic has this property.You haven't distinguished epistemic from 
ontic. If you want to know what's "real", or ontic, compare an EM wave with 
a probability wave. In the former case it can be detected when it passes, 
say with an antenna, in the latter case not. No device exists that can 
detect a probability wave when it passes. AG* 

>
> If this contains epistemic (and it does with mechanism), that epistemic 
> part can share the fact that some happening, and perhaps all, is a sum on 
> infinitely many virtual path. With mechanism, there might still be too much 
> parts, but that is testable.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>>> It is OK to say that probability comes from ignorance, and that the wave 
>>> describe that ignorance, the extraordinary thing is then that  this 
>>> ignorance interfere independently of you.
>>>
>>> So I have embraced the "shut up and calculate" interpretation of the 
>>> wave function.
>>>
>>> That can be wise. Nobody can enforce the search of the truth. It is 
>>> frustrating because we can’t be sure if we progress toward it or the 
>>> contrary, and it is shocking because truth always beat fictions.
>>>
>>> I also see a connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump 
>>> sycophants; they seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of 
>>> thinking copies of observers can occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG
>>>
>>> That remark deserves your point and diminish your credibility. It also 
>>> suggests that you are a “True Believer” in something.
>>>
>>> Assuming Mechanism in cognitive science, you don’t need quantum 
>>> mechanics to understand that there are infinitely many relative 
>>> computational states corresponding to you here and now emulated by 
>>> infinitely 

Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[agrayson2000]

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 6:22:45 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 6 Aug 2018, at 09:23, agrays...@gmail.com  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 5:50:56 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I 
>>> conclude the wave function has only epistemic content.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. 
>>> Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you 
>>> have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply 
>>> to us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less 
>>> ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, 
>>> and some others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken 
>>> seriously by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously 
>>> that idea would be inconsistent with Mechanism.
>>>
>>
>> *Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do 
>> repeated trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is 
>> finished. I forget; what is mechanism? AG *
>>
>>>
>>> There is no probability waves.
>>>
>>
>
> *IIUC, the wf has the mathematical form of a wave, of which the amplitude 
> is part of. AG*
>
>
> The point is that it behave also like a wave. 
>

*Yes, we all know that, but above you assert there are no probability waves 
-- but mathematically they exist, but no one has ever seen one. That's MY 
point! AG*

Even if I send only one particle, the position of the screen is determine 
> by a wave which take into account all physical available path. 
>
> You have proposed an instrumentalist interpretation, and that is OK if you 
> goal is to build microscopic transistor or atomic bombs. Here we try to 
> make sense of a theory. The choice is between a non-local guiding 
> potential, the relative states or a (magical) collapse, also non local.
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>> There is only an amplitude of probability wave, and the weirdness is that 
>>> we have strong indirect evidence that the amplitude of that wave is as 
>>> physically real as the particles that we can observe, because the particle 
>>> location is determined by that wave having interfered like wave usually do. 
>>> In particular, even if send one by one, the particles will never been found 
>>> where the wave interfere destructively, and the pattern on the screen will 
>>> reflect the number of holes, and their disposition. 
>>>
>>
> *The fact that the wf gives information about the constructive and 
> destructive inference pattern on the screen, say, is within the meaning of 
> having an epistemic property. *
>
>
> Not at all. It is based on inter-observer sharable documentation. The 
> whole mystery is in the double slit, or all the many-slits elaboration, 
> like the “joke” of Feynman asking what if we put slit everywhere.
>
>
>
>
> *If you want to claim it has ontic property, you need to define what that 
> means. AG *
>
>
>
> That it predicts result sharable by many people, who can then repeat the 
> experience, and see indeed that te arrival or non arrival of one election 
> depend on the sum of the amplitude of the happening events relative to 
> sharable device and device plan.
>
> If this contains epistemic (and it does with mechanism), that epistemic 
> part can share the fact that some happening, and perhaps all, is a sum on 
> infinitely many virtual path. With mechanism, there might still be too much 
> parts, but that is testable.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>>> It is OK to say that probability comes from ignorance, and that the wave 
>>> describe that ignorance, the extraordinary thing is then that  this 
>>> ignorance interfere independently of you.
>>>
>>> So I have embraced the "shut up and calculate" interpretation of the 
>>> wave function.
>>>
>>> That can be wise. Nobody can enforce the search of the truth. It is 
>>> frustrating because we can’t be sure if we progress toward it or the 
>>> contrary, and it is shocking because truth always beat fictions.
>>>
>>> I also see a connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump 
>>> sycophants; they seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of 
>>> thinking copies of observers can occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG
>>>
>>> That remark deserves your point and diminish your credibility. It also 
>>> suggests that you are a “True Believer” in something.
>>>
>>> Assuming Mechanism in cognitive science, you don’t need quantum 
>>> mechanics to understand that there are infinitely many relative 
>>> computational states corresponding to you here and now emulated by 
>>> infinitely many universal machines. Even without mechanism this is a 
>>> theorem of arithmetic using only Church thesis. With mechanism, we have to 
>>> derive the “guessable wave" from 

Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Brent Meeker]

On 8/6/2018 11:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 6 Aug 2018, at 09:23, agrayson2...@gmail.com 
 wrote:




On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 5:50:56 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com 
 wrote:




On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:

AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from
which I conclude the wave function has only epistemic content.



Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere
in nature. Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we
believe in a collapse (as you have to do if you believe in QM
and that the superposition does not apply to us) the idea
that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less
ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von
Neumann, Wigner, and some others. But has been shown to lead
to many difficulties when taken seriously by Abner Shimony,
as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously that idea would
be inconsistent with Mechanism.


*Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do
repeated trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment
is finished. I forget; what is mechanism? AG *


There is no probability waves.

*
IIUC, the wf has the mathematical form of a wave, of which the 
amplitude is part of. AG

*


The point is that it behave also like a wave. Even if I send only one 
particle, the position of the screen is determine by a wave which take 
into account all physical available path.


You have proposed an instrumentalist interpretation, and that is OK if 
you goal is to build microscopic transistor or atomic bombs. Here we 
try to make sense of a theory. The choice is between a non-local 
guiding potential, the relative states or a (magical) collapse, also 
non local.


You want to make sense of a theory that is defined by complex valued 
fields in a Hilbert space built on spacetime.  You begin by assuming 
mechanism, which implicitly replaces everything physical, including the 
spacetime, with conscious thoughts which are realized as theorems in 
arithmetic (or equivalent computation).  You have not shown how this 
entails conscious thoughts about a quasi-classical world, i.e. one in 
which there appears a shared reality. So wouldn't it be simpler to just 
adopt the interpretation of QBism.  It seems compatible with the idea of 
a computational substrate, but it doesn't need to assume one.  That fact 
tells me the computational substrate is an independent assumption that 
does not follow from QM.


Brent

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Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[agrayson2000]

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 5:50:58 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 5 Aug 2018, at 19:50, agrays...@gmail.com  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
>> the wave function has only epistemic content.
>>
>>
>>
>> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. 
>> Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you 
>> have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply 
>> to us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less 
>> ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, 
>> and some others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken 
>> seriously by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously 
>> that idea would be inconsistent with Mechanism.
>>
>
> *Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do repeated 
> trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is finished.*
>
>
> The idea that consciousness collapses the wave is that the wave is 
> described by a sum of two waves which are the one diffracted by the two 
> slits. The *final* probability is the square of the amplitude on that 
> screen, and the absence of particles ever on some part of the screen is due 
> to the destructive interference of the wave. We have a superposition, and 
> it works because I have not been conscious of which path the particle has 
> chosen. It is the unconsciousness of which hole took the electron which 
> interferes in this picture, and consciousness which select the eigenstate 
> in its favourite base.
>

*Consciousness used to be the explanation for collapse. When it doesn't 
work, try unconsciousness. AG*

>
> The idea is that if I look at u + d, QM describes that as O(u+d) = O u + O 
> d. The collapse is the inference that [1/sqrt(2)Ou + 1/sqrt(2)Od] collapses 
> into either Ou or Od with a probability (1/sqrt(2)^2. Everett is the theory 
> that there is no collapse, and it explains why the observer O will still 
> describes in its diary something like a collapse, using Mechanism 
> (identifying a person with its personal memory sequences of experiences, 
> like looking at a particle state)..
>
> I think more and more that the appellation “Relativise state theory” is 
> better that many-worlds, because the notion of worlds is more tricky to 
> defined than the word “state”.
>
> With mechanism we know at the start that the notion of world does not make 
> sense, there are only relative sharable dreams.
>
>
> * I forget; what is mechanism? AG *
>
>
>
> It is the hypothesis/theory/assumption that it exists a level of 
> description of your brain, or body (including any finite part of the 
> environment if you insist), such that a digital emulation executed by some 
> physical computer, at that level, would support your consciousness and 
> subjective life and character, etc. To simplify the reasoning I use often 
> the brain metabolical level, allowing you to survive with a digital brain. 
> My contribution is that entails you do survive also in the arithmetical 
> reality, and that we have to explain the origin of the wave trough a 
> Pythagorean theology, and the work of Gödel, Löb and Solovay provides 
> exactly that, and the tests (the comparison between the theological physics 
> of the universal Turing machine with the observation fits. The wave itself 
> is a phenomenological first person plural product on the sum of all 
> universal machine computations/dreams.
>
> Let me describe you the possible progress in the field, 
>
> I. Copenhagen: the assumptions are
>
> 1) the sigma_1 true propositions (a little part of arithmetic)
> 2) The SWE
> 3) a dualist unintelligible theory of mind
>
> II. Everett: the assumptions are
>
> 1) the sigma_1 true propositions
> 2) The SWE
> 3) Mechanism
>
> III) … and you can see this as a problem to solve, but the propositional 
> parts can be shown offered on a plate by the (Löbian) Universal Machine:
>
> 1) the sigma_1 true propositions
> 2) Mechanism
>
> Both the wave and the collapse should be (and is already up to further 
> verifications) explained the origin of the universal wave. Eventually it is 
> all in the head of all universal machine/machinery.
>
> Do you know a programming language? If yes, an example of a universal 
> machinery is provided by the enumeration of all programs in that 
> programming language. Another example: the enumeration of all Turing 
> machines. Another example: the enumeration of all combinators K S KK KS SK 
> SS KKK K(KK) …, or the numbers 0 S0 SS0 SSS0 0 …(S = successor here, 
> nothing to do with the Starling S, I mean the combinator S).
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>> There is no probability waves. There is only an amplitude of probability 
>> wave, and the weirdness is that we have 

Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 6 Aug 2018, at 09:23, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 5:50:56 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>> 
>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
>> the wave function has only epistemic content.
> 
> 
> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. Your 
> idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you have to 
> do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply to us) the 
> idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less ridiculous 
> idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, and some 
> others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken seriously 
> by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously that idea would 
> be inconsistent with Mechanism.
> 
> Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do repeated 
> trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is finished. I 
> forget; what is mechanism? AG 
> 
> There is no probability waves.
> 
> IIUC, the wf has the mathematical form of a wave, of which the amplitude is 
> part of. AG

The point is that it behave also like a wave. Even if I send only one particle, 
the position of the screen is determine by a wave which take into account all 
physical available path. 

You have proposed an instrumentalist interpretation, and that is OK if you goal 
is to build microscopic transistor or atomic bombs. Here we try to make sense 
of a theory. The choice is between a non-local guiding potential, the relative 
states or a (magical) collapse, also non local.



>  
> There is only an amplitude of probability wave, and the weirdness is that we 
> have strong indirect evidence that the amplitude of that wave is as 
> physically real as the particles that we can observe, because the particle 
> location is determined by that wave having interfered like wave usually do. 
> In particular, even if send one by one, the particles will never been found 
> where the wave interfere destructively, and the pattern on the screen will 
> reflect the number of holes, and their disposition. 
> 
> The fact that the wf gives information about the constructive and destructive 
> inference pattern on the screen, say, is within the meaning of having an 
> epistemic property.

Not at all. It is based on inter-observer sharable documentation. The whole 
mystery is in the double slit, or all the many-slits elaboration, like the 
“joke” of Feynman asking what if we put slit everywhere.




> If you want to claim it has ontic property, you need to define what that 
> means. AG 


That it predicts result sharable by many people, who can then repeat the 
experience, and see indeed that te arrival or non arrival of one election 
depend on the sum of the amplitude of the happening events relative to sharable 
device and device plan.

If this contains epistemic (and it does with mechanism), that epistemic part 
can share the fact that some happening, and perhaps all, is a sum on infinitely 
many virtual path. With mechanism, there might still be too much parts, but 
that is testable.

Bruno




> 
> It is OK to say that probability comes from ignorance, and that the wave 
> describe that ignorance, the extraordinary thing is then that  this ignorance 
> interfere independently of you.
>> So I have embraced the "shut up and calculate" interpretation of the wave 
>> function.
> That can be wise. Nobody can enforce the search of the truth. It is 
> frustrating because we can’t be sure if we progress toward it or the 
> contrary, and it is shocking because truth always beat fictions.
>> I also see a connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump 
>> sycophants; they seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of 
>> thinking copies of observers can occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG
> That remark deserves your point and diminish your credibility. It also 
> suggests that you are a “True Believer” in something.
> 
> Assuming Mechanism in cognitive science, you don’t need quantum mechanics to 
> understand that there are infinitely many relative computational states 
> corresponding to you here and now emulated by infinitely many universal 
> machines. Even without mechanism this is a theorem of arithmetic using only 
> Church thesis. With mechanism, we have to derive the “guessable wave" from a 
> statistics on those computations, and so we can test Mechanism if it leads to 
> more, or less extravaganza than Nature. It fits up to now. So with Mechanism, 
> we get the *appearance* of many interfering “worlds”, and this without any 
> worlds, from just the natural numbers and the laws of addition and 
> multiplication. I will show that with the combinators as it is much shorter 
> (but still long) than showing 

Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 5 Aug 2018, at 20:47, 'scerir' via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> Il 4 agosto 2018 alle 23.32 agrayson2...@gmail.com ha scritto: 
>> 
>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
>> the wave function has only epistemic content. So I have embraced the "shut 
>> up and calculate" interpretation of the wave function. I also see a 
>> connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump sycophants; they 
>> seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of thinking copies of 
>> observers can occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG 
>> 
> Frankly I cannot understand, from the following famous page, whether 
> Schroedinger thinks the wavefunction as ontic or epistermic or both!
> 

Schroedinger just expressed the difficulties, the seemingly contradiction. He 
witness that measurement seems to not obey to the wave. He is troubled, and it 
is normal. He is on the good direction, hesitating between the ontic and the 
epistemic.

Bohr rejected Everett literally, but Schroedinger would have offered a cup of 
coffee at least, perhaps listen, and get troubled. It is normal.

Bruno


> Erwin Schroedinger - § 7. The psi-Function as a Catalogue of Expectations. 
> 
> Continuing with the exposition of the official teaching, let us turn to the 
> psi-function
> mentioned above (§ 5). It is now the instrument for predicting the 
> probability of
> measurement outcomes. It embodies the totality of theoretical future 
> expectations, as laid
> down in a catalogue. It is, at any moment in time, the bridge of relations 
> and restrictions
> between different measurements, as were in the classical theory the model and 
> its state at
> any given time. The psi-function has also otherwise much in common with this 
> classical
> state. In principle, it is also uniquely determined by a finite number of 
> suitably chosen
> measurements on the object, though half as many as in the classical theory. 
> Thus is the
> catalogue of expectations laid down initially. From then on, it changes with 
> time, as in
> the classical theory, in a well-defined and deterministic ("causal") way - 
> the development
> of the psi-function is governed by a partial differential equation (of first 
> order in the time
> variable, and resolved for dy/dt). This corresponds to the undisturbed motion 
> of the
> model in the classical theory. But that lasts only so long until another 
> measurement is
> undertaken. After every measurement, one has to attribute to the psi-function 
> a curious,
> somewhat sudden adaptation, which depends on the measurement result and is 
> therefore
> unpredictable. This alone already shows that this second type of change of 
> the psi-function
> has nothing to do with the regular development between two measurements. The 
> sudden
> change due to measurement is closely connected with the discussion in § 5, 
> and we will
> consider it in depth in the following. It is the most interesting aspect of 
> the whole theory,
> and it is precisely this aspect that requires a breach with naive realism. 
> For this reason,
> the psi-function cannot immediately replace the model or the real thing. And 
> this is not
> because a real thing or a model could not in principle undergo sudden 
> unpredictable
> changes, but because from a realistic point of view, measurements are natural 
> phenomena
> like any other, and should not by themselves cause a sudden interruption of 
> the regular
> evolution in Nature. 
> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 5 Aug 2018, at 19:50, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com  wrote:
>> 
>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
>> the wave function has only epistemic content.
> 
> 
> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. Your 
> idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you have to 
> do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply to us) the 
> idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less ridiculous 
> idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, and some 
> others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken seriously 
> by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously that idea would 
> be inconsistent with Mechanism.
> 
> Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do repeated 
> trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is finished.

The idea that consciousness collapses the wave is that the wave is described by 
a sum of two waves which are the one diffracted by the two slits. The *final* 
probability is the square of the amplitude on that screen, and the absence of 
particles ever on some part of the screen is due to the destructive 
interference of the wave. We have a superposition, and it works because I have 
not been conscious of which path the particle has chosen. It is the 
unconsciousness of which hole took the electron which interferes in this 
picture, and consciousness which select the eigenstate in its favourite base.

The idea is that if I look at u + d, QM describes that as O(u+d) = O u + O d. 
The collapse is the inference that [1/sqrt(2)Ou + 1/sqrt(2)Od] collapses into 
either Ou or Od with a probability (1/sqrt(2)^2. Everett is the theory that 
there is no collapse, and it explains why the observer O will still describes 
in its diary something like a collapse, using Mechanism (identifying a person 
with its personal memory sequences of experiences, like looking at a particle 
state)..

I think more and more that the appellation “Relativise state theory” is better 
that many-worlds, because the notion of worlds is more tricky to defined than 
the word “state”.

With mechanism we know at the start that the notion of world does not make 
sense, there are only relative sharable dreams.


> I forget; what is mechanism? AG 


It is the hypothesis/theory/assumption that it exists a level of description of 
your brain, or body (including any finite part of the environment if you 
insist), such that a digital emulation executed by some physical computer, at 
that level, would support your consciousness and subjective life and character, 
etc. To simplify the reasoning I use often the brain metabolical level, 
allowing you to survive with a digital brain. My contribution is that entails 
you do survive also in the arithmetical reality, and that we have to explain 
the origin of the wave trough a Pythagorean theology, and the work of Gödel, 
Löb and Solovay provides exactly that, and the tests (the comparison between 
the theological physics of the universal Turing machine with the observation 
fits. The wave itself is a phenomenological first person plural product on the 
sum of all universal machine computations/dreams.

Let me describe you the possible progress in the field, 

I. Copenhagen: the assumptions are

1) the sigma_1 true propositions (a little part of arithmetic)
2) The SWE
3) a dualist unintelligible theory of mind

II. Everett: the assumptions are

1) the sigma_1 true propositions
2) The SWE
3) Mechanism

III) … and you can see this as a problem to solve, but the propositional parts 
can be shown offered on a plate by the (Löbian) Universal Machine:

1) the sigma_1 true propositions
2) Mechanism

Both the wave and the collapse should be (and is already up to further 
verifications) explained the origin of the universal wave. Eventually it is all 
in the head of all universal machine/machinery.

Do you know a programming language? If yes, an example of a universal machinery 
is provided by the enumeration of all programs in that programming language. 
Another example: the enumeration of all Turing machines. Another example: the 
enumeration of all combinators K S KK KS SK SS KKK K(KK) …, or the numbers 0 S0 
SS0 SSS0 0 …(S = successor here, nothing to do with the Starling S, I mean 
the combinator S).

Bruno


> 
> There is no probability waves. There is only an amplitude of probability 
> wave, and the weirdness is that we have strong indirect evidence that the 
> amplitude of that wave is as physically real as the particles that we can 
> observe, because the particle location is determined by that wave having 
> interfered like wave usually do. In particular, even if send one by one, the 
> particles will never been found where the wave interfere 

Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[agrayson2000]

On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 6:47:55 PM UTC, scerir wrote:
>
>
> Il 4 agosto 2018 alle 23.32 agrays...@gmail.com  ha scritto: 
>
> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
> the wave function has only epistemic content. So I have embraced the "shut 
> up and calculate" interpretation of the wave function. I also see a 
> connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump sycophants; 
> they seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of thinking 
> copies of observers can occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG 
>
> Frankly I cannot understand, from the following famous page, whether 
> Schroedinger thinks the wavefunction as ontic or epistermic or both!
>
> Erwin Schroedinger - § 7. The psi-Function as a Catalogue of Expectations. 
>
> Continuing with the exposition of the official teaching, let us turn to 
> the psi-function
> mentioned above (§ 5). It is now t*he instrument for predicting the 
> probability of*
> *measurement outcomes. It embodies the totality of theoretical future 
> expectations, as laid*
> *down in a catalogue*. It is, at any moment in time, the bridge of 
> relations and restrictions
> between different measurements, as were in the classical theory the model 
> and its state at
> any given time. The psi-function has also otherwise much in common with 
> this classical
> state. In principle, it is also uniquely determined by a finite number of 
> suitably chosen
> measurements on the object, though half as many as in the classical 
> theory. Thus is the
> catalogue of expectations laid down initially. From then on, it changes 
> with time, as in
> the classical theory, in a well-defined and deterministic ("causal") way - 
> the development
> of the psi-function is governed by a partial differential equation (of 
> first order in the time
> variable, and resolved for dy/dt). This corresponds to the undisturbed 
> motion of the
> model in the classical theory. *But that lasts only so long until another 
> measurement is*
> *undertaken. After every measurement, one has to attribute to the 
> psi-function a curious,*
> *somewhat sudden adaptation, which depends on the measurement result and 
> is therefore*
> *unpredictable*. This alone already shows that this second type of change 
> of the psi-function
> has nothing to do with the regular development between two measurements. 
> The sudden
> change due to measurement is closely connected with the discussion in § 5, 
> and we will
> consider it in depth in the following. It is the most interesting aspect 
> of the whole theory,
> and it is precisely this aspect that requires a breach with naive realism. 
> For this reason,
> the psi-function cannot immediately replace the model or the real thing. 
> And this is not
> because a real thing or a model could not in principle undergo sudden 
> unpredictable
> changes, but because from a realistic point of view, measurements are 
> natural phenomena
> like any other, and should not by themselves cause a sudden interruption 
> of the regular
> evolution in Nature. 
>


*The way I read it, he seems more worried about what has come to be called 
the collapse of the wf, than to the extent, if any, it is ontic, though at 
the end he seems denying it is "the real thing".  His language is fairly 
obtuse; maybe caused by translation from German, or something he acquired 
from Bohr. AG*

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Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[agrayson2000]

On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 5:50:56 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
>> the wave function has only epistemic content.
>>
>>
>>
>> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. 
>> Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you 
>> have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply 
>> to us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less 
>> ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, 
>> and some others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken 
>> seriously by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously 
>> that idea would be inconsistent with Mechanism.
>>
>
> *Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do repeated 
> trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is finished. I 
> forget; what is mechanism? AG *
>
>>
>> There is no probability waves.
>>
>


*IIUC, the wf has the mathematical form of a wave, of which the amplitude 
is part of. AG *

> There is only an amplitude of probability wave, and the weirdness is that 
>> we have strong indirect evidence that the amplitude of that wave is as 
>> physically real as the particles that we can observe, because the particle 
>> location is determined by that wave having interfered like wave usually do. 
>> In particular, even if send one by one, the particles will never been found 
>> where the wave interfere destructively, and the pattern on the screen will 
>> reflect the number of holes, and their disposition. 
>>
>
*The fact that the wf gives information about the constructive and 
destructive inference pattern on the screen, say, is within the meaning of 
having an epistemic property. If you want to claim it has ontic property, 
you need to define what that means. AG *

>
>> It is OK to say that probability comes from ignorance, and that the wave 
>> describe that ignorance, the extraordinary thing is then that  this 
>> ignorance interfere independently of you.
>>
>> So I have embraced the "shut up and calculate" interpretation of the wave 
>> function.
>>
>> That can be wise. Nobody can enforce the search of the truth. It is 
>> frustrating because we can’t be sure if we progress toward it or the 
>> contrary, and it is shocking because truth always beat fictions.
>>
>> I also see a connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump 
>> sycophants; they seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of 
>> thinking copies of observers can occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG
>>
>> That remark deserves your point and diminish your credibility. It also 
>> suggests that you are a “True Believer” in something.
>>
>> Assuming Mechanism in cognitive science, you don’t need quantum mechanics 
>> to understand that there are infinitely many relative computational states 
>> corresponding to you here and now emulated by infinitely many universal 
>> machines. Even without mechanism this is a theorem of arithmetic using only 
>> Church thesis. With mechanism, we have to derive the “guessable wave" from 
>> a statistics on those computations, and so we can test Mechanism if it 
>> leads to more, or less extravaganza than Nature. It fits up to now. So with 
>> Mechanism, we get the *appearance* of many interfering “worlds”, and this 
>> without any worlds, from just the natural numbers and the laws of addition 
>> and multiplication. I will show that with the combinators as it is much 
>> shorter (but still long) than showing this with the numbers. This is known 
>> by logicians since the 1930s (I mean that a universal Turing machine is an 
>> arithmetical object). Computationalism, or Indexical Digital Mechanism 
>> imposes a Many-Dreams internal interpretation of Arithmetic (or combinator 
>> theory, or game-of-life theory, … we have to assume only one universal 
>> machinery).
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
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>>
>>
>>

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Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

['scerir' via Everything List]

> Il 4 agosto 2018 alle 23.32 agrayson2...@gmail.com ha scritto:
> 
> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
> the wave function has only epistemic content. So I have embraced the "shut up 
> and calculate" interpretation of the wave function. I also see a connection 
> between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump sycophants; they seem immune 
> to simple facts, such as the foolishness of thinking copies of observers can 
> occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG
> 

Frankly I cannot understand, from the following famous page, whether 
Schroedinger thinks the wavefunction as ontic or epistermic or both!

Erwin Schroedinger - § 7. The psi-Function as a Catalogue of Expectations.

Continuing with the exposition of the official teaching, let us turn to the 
psi-function
mentioned above (§ 5). It is now the instrument for predicting the probability 
of
measurement outcomes. It embodies the totality of theoretical future 
expectations, as laid
down in a catalogue. It is, at any moment in time, the bridge of relations and 
restrictions
between different measurements, as were in the classical theory the model and 
its state at
any given time. The psi-function has also otherwise much in common with this 
classical
state. In principle, it is also uniquely determined by a finite number of 
suitably chosen
measurements on the object, though half as many as in the classical theory. 
Thus is the
catalogue of expectations laid down initially. From then on, it changes with 
time, as in
the classical theory, in a well-defined and deterministic ("causal") way - the 
development
of the psi-function is governed by a partial differential equation (of first 
order in the time
variable, and resolved for dy/dt). This corresponds to the undisturbed motion 
of the
model in the classical theory. But that lasts only so long until another 
measurement is
undertaken. After every measurement, one has to attribute to the psi-function a 
curious,
somewhat sudden adaptation, which depends on the measurement result and is 
therefore
unpredictable. This alone already shows that this second type of change of the 
psi-function
has nothing to do with the regular development between two measurements. The 
sudden
change due to measurement is closely connected with the discussion in § 5, and 
we will
consider it in depth in the following. It is the most interesting aspect of the 
whole theory,
and it is precisely this aspect that requires a breach with naive realism. For 
this reason,
the psi-function cannot immediately replace the model or the real thing. And 
this is not
because a real thing or a model could not in principle undergo sudden 
unpredictable
changes, but because from a realistic point of view, measurements are natural 
phenomena
like any other, and should not by themselves cause a sudden interruption of the 
regular
evolution in Nature.

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Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[agrayson2000]

On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com  wrote:
>
> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
> the wave function has only epistemic content.
>
>
>
> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. 
> Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you 
> have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply 
> to us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less 
> ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, 
> and some others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken 
> seriously by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously 
> that idea would be inconsistent with Mechanism.
>

*Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do repeated 
trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is finished. I 
forget; what is mechanism? AG *

>
> There is no probability waves. There is only an amplitude of probability 
> wave, and the weirdness is that we have strong indirect evidence that the 
> amplitude of that wave is as physically real as the particles that we can 
> observe, because the particle location is determined by that wave having 
> interfered like wave usually do. In particular, even if send one by one, 
> the particles will never been found where the wave interfere destructively, 
> and the pattern on the screen will reflect the number of holes, and their 
> disposition. 
>
> It is OK to say that probability comes from ignorance, and that the wave 
> describe that ignorance, the extraordinary thing is then that  this 
> ignorance interfere independently of you.
>
>
>
>
>
> So I have embraced the "shut up and calculate" interpretation of the wave 
> function.
>
>
>
> That can be wise. Nobody can enforce the search of the truth. It is 
> frustrating because we can’t be sure if we progress toward it or the 
> contrary, and it is shocking because truth always beat fictions.
>
>
>
> I also see a connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump 
> sycophants; they seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of 
> thinking copies of observers can occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG
>
>
> That remark deserves your point and diminish your credibility. It also 
> suggests that you are a “True Believer” in something.
>
> Assuming Mechanism in cognitive science, you don’t need quantum mechanics 
> to understand that there are infinitely many relative computational states 
> corresponding to you here and now emulated by infinitely many universal 
> machines. Even without mechanism this is a theorem of arithmetic using only 
> Church thesis. With mechanism, we have to derive the “guessable wave" from 
> a statistics on those computations, and so we can test Mechanism if it 
> leads to more, or less extravaganza than Nature. It fits up to now. So with 
> Mechanism, we get the *appearance* of many interfering “worlds”, and this 
> without any worlds, from just the natural numbers and the laws of addition 
> and multiplication. I will show that with the combinators as it is much 
> shorter (but still long) than showing this with the numbers. This is known 
> by logicians since the 1930s (I mean that a universal Turing machine is an 
> arithmetical object). Computationalism, or Indexical Digital Mechanism 
> imposes a Many-Dreams internal interpretation of Arithmetic (or combinator 
> theory, or game-of-life theory, … we have to assume only one universal 
> machinery).
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com .
> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>

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Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude the 
> wave function has only epistemic content.


Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. Your 
idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you have to 
do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply to us) the 
idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less ridiculous idea. 
That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, and some others. But 
has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken seriously by Abner 
Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously that idea would be 
inconsistent with Mechanism.

There is no probability waves. There is only an amplitude of probability wave, 
and the weirdness is that we have strong indirect evidence that the amplitude 
of that wave is as physically real as the particles that we can observe, 
because the particle location is determined by that wave having interfered like 
wave usually do. In particular, even if send one by one, the particles will 
never been found where the wave interfere destructively, and the pattern on the 
screen will reflect the number of holes, and their disposition. 

It is OK to say that probability comes from ignorance, and that the wave 
describe that ignorance, the extraordinary thing is then that  this ignorance 
interfere independently of you.





> So I have embraced the "shut up and calculate" interpretation of the wave 
> function.


That can be wise. Nobody can enforce the search of the truth. It is frustrating 
because we can’t be sure if we progress toward it or the contrary, and it is 
shocking because truth always beat fictions.



> I also see a connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump 
> sycophants; they seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of 
> thinking copies of observers can occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG

That remark deserves your point and diminish your credibility. It also suggests 
that you are a “True Believer” in something.

Assuming Mechanism in cognitive science, you don’t need quantum mechanics to 
understand that there are infinitely many relative computational states 
corresponding to you here and now emulated by infinitely many universal 
machines. Even without mechanism this is a theorem of arithmetic using only 
Church thesis. With mechanism, we have to derive the “guessable wave" from a 
statistics on those computations, and so we can test Mechanism if it leads to 
more, or less extravaganza than Nature. It fits up to now. So with Mechanism, 
we get the *appearance* of many interfering “worlds”, and this without any 
worlds, from just the natural numbers and the laws of addition and 
multiplication. I will show that with the combinators as it is much shorter 
(but still long) than showing this with the numbers. This is known by logicians 
since the 1930s (I mean that a universal Turing machine is an arithmetical 
object). Computationalism, or Indexical Digital Mechanism imposes a Many-Dreams 
internal interpretation of Arithmetic (or combinator theory, or game-of-life 
theory, … we have to assume only one universal machinery).

Bruno




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Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[agrayson2000]

On Saturday, August 4, 2018 at 10:00:58 PM UTC, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
>
> Do you really think that using your words, insults and so on will convince 
> anyone?
>

*No, of course not They're beyond being effected by simple logic, or common 
sense, which became extinct not so long ago. They can't face the fact that 
not every mathematical equation or concept is reified in the physical  
world, and examples of this exist in classical physics, such as plane waves 
or advanced solutions of Maxwell's equations. Does any human being have the 
power to create uncountable universes with uncountable copies of himself, 
replete with his memory? Hard to imagine a more foolish idea. AG*

>
> How old are you? C'est ridicule. 
>



 

>
> Le sam. 4 août 2018 à 23:32, > a écrit :
>
>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
>> the wave function has only epistemic content. So I have embraced the "shut 
>> up and calculate" interpretation of the wave function. I also see a 
>> connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump sycophants; 
>> they seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of thinking 
>> copies of observers can occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG
>>
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Re: The Ilusion of Branching and the MWI

[Quentin Anciaux]

Do you really think that using your words, insults and so on will convince
anyone?

How old are you? C'est ridicule.

Le sam. 4 août 2018 à 23:32,  a écrit :

> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude
> the wave function has only epistemic content. So I have embraced the "shut
> up and calculate" interpretation of the wave function. I also see a
> connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump sycophants;
> they seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of thinking
> copies of observers can occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG
>
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