[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- peterklutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > --- anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > -- snip --
> >  
> > > Nicely put. Any concept of "enlightened behavior"
> > is
> > > more a reflection of a cultural/psychological
> > boundary
> > > of the individual than some assessment of
> > > enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the
> > term
> > > "enlightened behavior" is an oxymoron. There is no
> > > such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just
> > > behavior, period. 
> > > 
> > 
> > In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be
> > of guidance. The
> > first is that an enlightened individual (another
> > oxymoron..?) always
> > acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the
> > three gunas,
> > enlightened people act under the influence of
> > sattva.
> > 
> > Given the press conference of lately I would venture
> > a guess that one
> > is always true but that two is a matter of choice -
> > and then perhaps
> > what the times require to promote the smoothest
> > evolution possible for
> > the cosmically assigned area of responsibility (the
> > World, in MMY's case).
> > 
> > History has previously recorded enlightened people
> > acting in manners
> > that in effect made their physical bodies the focal
> > point for
> > collective bad karma. The Ultimate Sacrifice, I
> > believe it's called
> > when people who are not Self-realized passes through
> > this particular
> > experience. 
> > 
> > What is it called for someone who is enlightened,
> > when a ripple aware
> > of it's status as the Ocean levels out and in the
> > process performs a
> > yagya that resounds for millenia to come?
> 
> I think you are attributing qualities and abilities to
> the enlightened that just aren't there. It's more a
> projection of the God archetype than anything else.

That's what I meant by my 'megalomania' quip,
just fleshed out.  The enlightened just act,
in the same way that any other sentient being
acts.  Their actions have the same effect as
those of any other sentient being.  But some
people, for their own reasons, seem to want
the actions of the enlightened to be more
powerful, more far-reaching, more "special."

The megalomania -- the belief that one is the
center of the whirlwind, the cause to the world's
effect -- does not always even start with the
person on whom it is projected.  It starts with
those who project it.  I suspect Christ is a 
good example of this.  He was probably a pretty
cool dude, just doing his thing, teaching those
who showed up and had ears to hear.  Then he
dies, and those who showed up -- in an attempt
to make THEMSELVES more important and "special" --
turn him into the saviour of the world.

One teacher I knew said everything there is to
say about being a spiritual teacher (IMO, of
course) in four lines:

I am not important.
Today I am here
And tomorrow I will be gone.
I am not important.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> -- snip --
>  
> > Nicely put. Any concept of "enlightened behavior" is
> > more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary
> > of the individual than some assessment of
> > enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term
> > "enlightened behavior" is an oxymoron. There is no
> > such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just
> > behavior, period. 
> 
> In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. 
The
> first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always
> acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three gunas,
> enlightened people act under the influence of sattva.
> 
> Given the press conference of lately I would venture a guess that 
one
> is always true but that two is a matter of choice - and then perhaps
> what the times require to promote the smoothest evolution possible 
for
> the cosmically assigned area of responsibility (the World, in MMY's 
case).
> 
> History has previously recorded enlightened people acting in manners
> that in effect made their physical bodies the focal point for
> collective bad karma. The Ultimate Sacrifice, I believe it's called
> when people who are not Self-realized passes through this particular
> experience. 
> 
> What is it called for someone who is enlightened, when a ripple 
> aware of it's status as the Ocean levels out and in the process 
> performs a yagya that resounds for millenia to come?

I'm not sure what the Sanskrit term is, but in
English I think that the word you're searching
for is 'megalomania.'







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[anonymousff]

Peter wrote:
I find your points to be quite off the mark and restrict my critique
to the simple observation that almost all of the points credit Bush
jr with being far more than he is.

Thank you for your comments.  I agree, I have 
probably credited Bush with more than he deserves.
However, we are dealing here with 2
charismatic personalities with their fingers
firmly on the purse strings.  Bush's days
hopefully are numbered.
IMO, those who want to jump through hoops 
to fulfil MMY's next wild fantasy should at least
be aware that certain personality types do exist,
enlightened or not.  They may warrant a little
closer examination. If one is prepared to be honest.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis]

Peterklutz wrote:
> What is it called for someone who is enlightened,
> when a ripple aware of it's status as the Ocean levels out and in
the process performs a yagya that resounds for millenia to come?

Peter writes:
I think you are attributing qualities and abilities to
the enlightened that just aren't there. It's more a
projection of the God archetype than anything else.

Tom T:
>From the Shiva Sutras third awakening. Recently MMY was quoted on a
Tape on campus as saying the Shiva Sutras are the experiences of the
Enlightened.

Shiva sutras,snipped
24. When a yogi, after developing awareness of God Consciousness,
transcends the state of Turiya, he enters into Transcendental God
Consciousness.

25. Such a yogi becomes one with Shiva.

26. For him the austerity is nothing else than the normal routine of
physical life.

27. And for such a yogi the daily routine talk becomes the recitation
of real mantra.

28. Such a yogi gives as alms to humanity his own knowledge of the Self.

29. The yogi, who commands the entire wheel of cognitive and active
organs, is the only means of attaining knowledge of Transcendental God
Consciousness.

30. For him the whole universe is the totality of his own energies.

31. Living in this world of ignorance or remaining in the
Transcendental God Consciousness is the totality of one's own energies
of consciousness.

32. Such a yogi, though apparently engrossed in the daily routine of
life, is in no way separated from God Consciousness.

33. Because such a yogi perceives the states of pain and pleasure only
super-ficially, they, in no case, affect his state of
Sureme-Being-Consciousness.

34. Hence he is liberated from the states of pain and pleasure and is
uniquely established in his own nature.

35. On the contrary, the one who feels the absence of God
Consciousness in the states of pain and pleasure, is an individual
soul and a victim of recurring births and deaths.

36. The one who stands aloof from differentiatedness becomes the
creator and destroyer of the entire universe.

37. The energy of creating and destroying the whole universe comes
within the experience of such a yogi just as an ordinary soul
possesses the power to create and destroy during his dreaming state.

38. The state of Turiya God Consciousness, that comes into experience
in the beginning and at the end of the other three states (waking,
dreaming, and deep sleep), should be infused and transmitted into
these three states by firmly establishing one's own awareness during
these intervals - beginning and end thereof.

39. And by developing such a process, a yogi must transmit the God
Consciousness not only into the three states of individuality but into
the entire universe.

40. By the slight appearance of individual desire, one is carried far
away from the state of God Consciousness.

41. By firmly establishing one's own Self in the state of Turiya, all
desires disappear and individuality is lost into universality.

42. Such a yogi is liberated in life and as his body still exists, his
is called bhuta-kanchuki - having his physical body as a mere covering
just like an ordinary blanket. Hence he is supreme and one with the
universal Self.

43. After remaining in this state of universal Transcendental God
Consciousness, the functions of inhalation and exhalation
automatically take place with the object that this whole universe of
action and cognition is united in God Consciousness.

44. When one contemplates on the center of Universal Consciousness,
what else remains there to be sought in the practice of prana, apana,
and sushumna?

45. When a Shiva-yogi is completely established in God Consciousness,
he experiences this state spontaneously within and without or both.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[peterklutz]

I find your points to be quite off the mark and restrict my critique
to the simple observation that almost all of the points credit Bush 
jr with being far more than he is.

"manipulative masterminds" & "glorious leader type personalities":
Bush is neither glorious nor a leader type, he defaulted into his
current position as Team Cheney's errand boy by having a father that
was once president  

"experts at re-framing realities in a way that is all but
unassailable": try Bush's speech writers - the man himself is barely
able to read off a cue card.

'"moral purists" who demand a "perfect world"': if Bush jr comes
across like this today, it's only because someone told him to say
this. It's not the man


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 2 snips:
> From: anonymousff
> 
> FWIW, in numerous lectures at the first Mallorca TTC, Jan-June, 1971,
> Maharishi told us (many times) that we should get rid of as many bad
> habits as possible before CC because they wouldn't go away just
> because we were enlightened. He said clearly we take our bad habits
> with us.
> This speaks volumes to me now, close to 35 years later, when we are
> all (or at least many) finally realizing that appearing to be
> saintly-whether strictly the *look* of saintliness, the pretty words
> of enlightenment from a real saint or a poseur-may be nothing but the
> Emperor's new new clothes.
> 
> Tom T:
> As a nation addicted to power and cheap oil we have the best leader we
> could ever want. Bush the addict is leading us down the slippery slope
> to the bottom that all addicts eventually find as the only way out.
> Who else to lead us all there but the epitome of the dangerous addict
> who will do anything he has to do to maintain his source. All addicts
> protect their source and the ability to satisfy the craving. Old Bushy
> here is in the same mode. Just watch him, clever and lying like hell
> to keep the whole deal rolling forward. We are along for the ride.
> Hope we all learn something and that it doesn't have to be total
> bottom for all of us. Tom
> 
> COMMENT:  
> Both Bush and Maharishi display certain characteristics
> of manipulative masterminds. We can only feel sorry for 
> those poor victims who have hitched their wagons to these
> (sic) glorious leader type personalities.  These types are
> frequently found in leadership roles in businesses such as 
> Enron, etc.  Psychologists would probably label this
> personality type as the "Big Thinker" type.
> The "Big Thinker" goes through life inspiring and
> motivating others, but at the same time, wreaking havoc
> chaos, destruction and even death on those who have been
> unfortunate enough to join the team.
> 
> IMO, similar characteristics shared by both Bush 
> and Maharishi include:
> 
> 1.  An intention to grasp and utilise the the resources of others
> for their own ends and glorification - it may be  
> YOUR time and/or YOUR assets, and/or YOUR future.
> 
> 2.  Persistently living in a fantasy world which has no
> relation whatsoever to the real world.
> 
> 3.  They are moral purists who demand a "perfect world"
> and they resent and rebel if it doesn't meet their
> self-defeatingly high standards.
> 
> 4.  The ability to project and to blame others, while at
> the same time cunningly avoiding responsibility for 
> one's own failings and mistakes.  Natural consequences
> and reality feedback are anathema to them.
> They are compulsively responsibility avoident.
> 
> 5.  They place insatiable demands and expections on others.
> Everyone around them is subject to endless intrusion  
> and manipulation.  They also want a discount on everything,
> and they haggle constantly.
> 
> 6.  They define eveything on their own terms, and
> they demand to make and change all the rules of 
> any system or situation at whim.  They are totally
> into arbitraty control.
> 
> 7.  They are always dreaming the impossible dream and
> then acting on it as if it were reality.  They are
> "scheme in the sky" grandiose, and they live in a 
> dream world of stated intentions, promises, and
> fantasies.  They are all ego, self-aggrandising,
> expoitative, and super-status and recognition
> conscious. 
> 
> 8.  They are intensely concerned with "looking good"
> and they use their pseudo perfectionism to go after
> illusory statusful goals, seeking always to be 
> seen with the "right" people.
> 
> 9.  They use approval witholding, mild disapproval,
> and selective approval-bestowing as extremely
> effective manipulation control tactics.
> 
> 10. They are notoriously charming and charismatic,
> and they are able to "charm the pants off everyone"
> to get their own way.
> 
> 11.  They have a huge reservoir of rage that is
>  sugar coated in a smiling vengeance trip that
>  will be activated by your attempts to bring some
>  sense to th

[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:

> > > In both cases there is action that is sattvic then tamasic (and 
> > > so on), but only one of these actions promotes evolution.
> > 
> > Excellent points.  And you can't second-guess.
> > It really leaves you without any ground to stand
> > on, which is probably a good thing...
> 
> No objections..? 
> 
> I actually posted a reply without stepping on someone's toes?

Well, certainly not mine! 

> Hmmm, maybe there is a chance I'll have a decent personality in CC!

Are you telling us you now have an indecent one?  ;-)






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[anonymousff]

2 snips:
From: anonymousff

FWIW, in numerous lectures at the first Mallorca TTC, Jan-June, 1971,
Maharishi told us (many times) that we should get rid of as many bad
habits as possible before CC because they wouldn't go away just
because we were enlightened. He said clearly we take our bad habits
with us.
This speaks volumes to me now, close to 35 years later, when we are
all (or at least many) finally realizing that appearing to be
saintly-whether strictly the *look* of saintliness, the pretty words
of enlightenment from a real saint or a poseur-may be nothing but the
Emperor's new new clothes.

Tom T:
As a nation addicted to power and cheap oil we have the best leader we
could ever want. Bush the addict is leading us down the slippery slope
to the bottom that all addicts eventually find as the only way out.
Who else to lead us all there but the epitome of the dangerous addict
who will do anything he has to do to maintain his source. All addicts
protect their source and the ability to satisfy the craving. Old Bushy
here is in the same mode. Just watch him, clever and lying like hell
to keep the whole deal rolling forward. We are along for the ride.
Hope we all learn something and that it doesn't have to be total
bottom for all of us. Tom

COMMENT:
Both Bush and Maharishi display certain characteristics
of manipulative masterminds. We can only feel sorry for 
those poor victims who have hitched their wagons to these
(sic) glorious leader type personalities.  These types are
frequently found in leadership roles in businesses such as 
Enron, etc.  Psychologists would probably label this
personality type as the "Big Thinker" type.
The "Big Thinker" goes through life inspiring and
motivating others, but at the same time, wreaking havoc
chaos, destruction and even death on those who have been
unfortunate enough to join the team.

IMO, similar characteristics shared by both Bush 
and Maharishi include:

1.  An intention to grasp and utilise the the resources of others
for their own ends and glorification - it may be  
YOUR time and/or YOUR assets, and/or YOUR future.

2.  Persistently living in a fantasy world which has no
relation whatsoever to the real world.

3.  They are moral purists who demand a "perfect world"
and they resent and rebel if it doesn't meet their
self-defeatingly high standards.

4.  The ability to project and to blame others, while at
the same time cunningly avoiding responsibility for 
one's own failings and mistakes.  Natural consequences
and reality feedback are anathema to them.
They are compulsively responsibility avoident.

5.  They place insatiable demands and expections on others.
Everyone around them is subject to endless intrusion  
and manipulation.  They also want a discount on everything,
and they haggle constantly.

6.  They define eveything on their own terms, and
they demand to make and change all the rules of 
any system or situation at whim.  They are totally
into arbitraty control.

7.  They are always dreaming the impossible dream and
then acting on it as if it were reality.  They are
"scheme in the sky" grandiose, and they live in a 
dream world of stated intentions, promises, and
fantasies.  They are all ego, self-aggrandising,
expoitative, and super-status and recognition
conscious. 

8.  They are intensely concerned with "looking good"
and they use their pseudo perfectionism to go after
illusory statusful goals, seeking always to be 
seen with the "right" people.

9.  They use approval witholding, mild disapproval,
and selective approval-bestowing as extremely
effective manipulation control tactics.

10. They are notoriously charming and charismatic,
and they are able to "charm the pants off everyone"
to get their own way.

11.  They have a huge reservoir of rage that is
 sugar coated in a smiling vengeance trip that
 will be activated by your attempts to bring some
 sense to the situation, often disguised in
 new age or spiritual rationalizations and concepts.

12.  They often remain totally incommunicado and
 uncontactable.

13.  They are experts at re-framing realities in
 a way that is all but unassailable.  In short,
 they are brilliant bullshit manipulation-masters.


The way to burst the bubble of this type of delusional
personality is to STOP CO-OPERATING WITH THEM.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[akasha_108]

Akasha:
>  do you hold that sadhana have not effect on behavior?
> > Decreased anger, guilt, embarassment, jealousy, envy, and
> > reactiveness, along with increased happiness, sparkle, crativity,
> > love, tolerance, flexibility and compassion seem not only to be
> > positive correlated with sadhanas but a causitive result of such.  
> > 

Anon: 
> I agree with you that the regular practice of meditation can have
the influences mention above. Over the past 35 years I have seen
people who started TM, embraced the practice and philosophy, changed
their diets, stopped smoking, went back to school, etc. all positive
things.Years later many resumed old habits including hard core drug
usage, smoking cigarettes, and other such behaviors. Is it the
majority, I  don't think so. 
> 
> However, could these behaviors change because of the idea that *now
> I'm a meditator, meditator's are known to be non-reactive,
> non-jealous, peaceloving, compassionate people, now that I meditate 


Ak:

I am quite familiar with the "being an example" effect on behavior --
both seeing it and living it.  But IME, such changes are superficial.
The changes I was touching on are deeper, more substantial. 
However, I agree there can be a snapback effect when one stops being a
teacher and is released from the need of "being ut a teacher". Or peer
/ social links with TMO folks diminish somewhat (or such peers become
less TMOish, and thus good behavior within bounds acceptable to
peers). And this can lead to adoption of old behaviors which are not
affected by the sadhana-effect. But I think the latter still has a
substantial effect on its own. Thats my experience at least. 

Anon: 
> Many people who learned TM, due to the era we started, were already
in the Eastern get-enlightened mindset and the notion of being or
emulating a Yogi was pretty well standardized and that was our model. 
So, even with the admonition to do nothing more than meditate for 40
minutes per day, we were pretty ready to take on saintly behavior.

Ak:
I think that the emulation, at least on the lower level of "parroting"
and imitating specific behaviors -- if not quirks --  of TMO "role
models" diminishes as one "grows up" -- from teens or early 20's to
late 30s +.  So there are at least five effects: i) sadhana, ii)
feeling the need to be an example of TM benefits, iii) imitating TMO
role models, iv) natural maturity, v) snapback effects. I think the
first can be substantially distinguished from the others.
 
Anon:
> Peter put it so well in another post in this thread when he made
> reference to people's projection of the God archetype. I think that
is what very many have done.

AK:
IMO,improved behavior resulting from sadhana is a  reality -- at least
for many. This is easily distinguished from some theoretical model /
baggage some carry with them regarding the attributes of "ideal
behavior". To state that there is no pinnacle of ideal human behavior
  is a POV -- maybe true maybe not, but pretty irrelevant. The
practical issue is whether sadhana / self-help / mentorships etc. can
improve behavior over prior states.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[peterklutz]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:

-- huge snip --

> > I think it's a mistake to consider "positive" (sattvic?)
> > actions/events and evolutionary-promotive action to be the same, 
> > they are not.
> > 
> > Occasionally the growth of something new can happen only after
> > something else that stands in the way is destroyed.
> > 
> > If the action that at one time promotes growth is sattvic at another
> > turn destroys something that holds growth back, the same action -
> > although displaying both sattvic and tamasic qualities - always 
> serves
> > to promote evolution.
> > 
> > Conversely, an action that on the surface appears to be sattvic 
> might
> > in fact be checking progress by overextending the life-span of
> > something that need to go, whilst at another turn, the same action
> > might destroy something that should really have been given the 
> chance
> > to grow.  
> > 
> > In both cases there is action that is sattvic then tamasic (and so
> > on), but only one of these actions promotes evolution.
> 
> Excellent points.  And you can't second-guess.
> It really leaves you without any ground to stand
> on, which is probably a good thing...
>

No objections..? 

I actually posted a reply without stepping on someone's toes? 

Hmmm, maybe there is a chance I'll have a decent personality in CC!


 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > > Action, indeed, should be understood,
> > > > wrong action should also be understood,
> > > > and inaction should be understood as well.
> > > > Unfathomable is the course of action.
> > > > 
> > > > MMY comments, in part:
> > > > 
> > > > "The Lord has said that knowledge of action is
> > > > necessary and yet, the course of action being
> > > > unfathomable, knowledge of it must remain
> > > > incomplete.  
> > > 
> > > That knoweldge of action is incomplete, not totally absent, is a
> > > huge point many appear to miss. Time and time 
again "Unfathomable 
> > > is the course of action" is trotted out to claim that we can 
have no
> > > knowledge of the effects of our actions. Such nonesense.
> > 
> > Unquestionably nonsense.  (However, that isn't
> > directly relevant to the point I was making about
> > its being impossible to use behavior as the
> > criterion for enlightenment.)
> > 
> > > We can have a reasonable and useful level of such knowlede. And 
with
> > > various abilities refined, some may have quite a bit of on-
target 
> > > abilities. 
> > 
> > If we didn't use it, we couldn't function at all.
> > 
> > > The point is, there is always going to be an "error term", just 
as
> > > statistical models all have error terms. They might explain 60% 
or
> > > 90% of the fluctuations of some phenomenon, but not all of it. 
> > > There are always some unexplained influences and effects. That 
does 
> > > not mean that such models are useless. Quite the contrary. In a 
> > > similar fashion, humans can know some efect of acions. In some 
caes 
> > > quite a bit of the effect.
> > 
> > I'd suggest that our knowledge of the consequences
> > of actions becomes less and less certain as the
> > ripples of an action's ramifications extend outward
> > from the time and place of the action.
> > 
> > Michael Dean Goodman (on TMNews, I think it was) once
> > set out a lengthy account of the potential consequences
> > of some simple action unfolding over time in which they
> > shifted from negative to positive to negative to positive,
> > over and over, extending centuries into the future with
> > no end in sight.  It's not difficult to imagine such
> > scenarios with any action.
> > 
> > This is also why the notion of "support of nature" is
> > iffy.  An event that seems to be completely positive
> > when it happens can have very negative consequences
> > down the road, and vice-versa.
> >
> 
> I think it's a mistake to consider "positive" (sattvic?)
> actions/events and evolutionary-promotive action to be the same, 
> they are not.
> 
> Occasionally the growth of something new can happen only after
> something else that stands in the way is destroyed.
> 
> If the action that at one time promotes growth is sattvic at another
> turn destroys something that holds growth back, the same action -
> although displaying both sattvic and tamasic qualities - always 
serves
> to promote evolution.
> 
> Conversely, an action that on the surface appears to be sattvic 
might
> in fact be checking progress by overextending the life-span of
> something that need to go, whilst at another turn, the same action
> might destroy something that should really have been given the 
chance
> to grow.  
> 
> In both cases there is action that is sattvic then tamasic (and so
> on), but only one of these actions promotes evolution.

Excellent points.  And you can't second-guess.
It really leaves you without any ground to stand
on, which is probably a good thing...






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[Vaj]

On Oct 10, 2005, at 7:02 PM, peterklutz wrote:

> Ok, so control-freaks need not heed MMY's reported 197? comment on
> loosing one's bad habits?

No hard and fast rule, but from this POV you transform the negative,  
neurotic dimension of existence into "All-Accomplishing Wisdom".



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[anonymousff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 do you hold that sadhana have not effect on behavior?
> 
> Decreased anger, guilt, embarassment, jealousy, envy, and
> reactiveness, along with increased happiness, sparkle, crativity,
> love, tolerance, flexibility and compassion seem not only to be
> positive correlated with sadhanas but a causitive result of such.  
> 

I agree with you that the regular practice of meditation can have the
influences mention above. Over the past 35 years I have seen people
who started TM, embraced the practice and philosophy, changed their
diets, stopped smoking, went back to school, etc. all positive things.
Years later many resumed old habits including hard core drug usage,
smoking cigarettes, and other such behaviors. Is it the majority, I
don't think so. 

However, could these behaviors change because of the idea that *now
I'm a meditator, meditator's are known to be non-reactive,
non-jealous, peaceloving, compassionate people, now that I meditate I
am all those things* and then act as if that were true? I have seen
scores of TM people revert back to previous behavior when, finally,
they could not take the strain of being such a *good* person.
Initially we were all told NOT to do anything other than practice TM
twice per day for 20 minutes, no other beliefs required. 

Many people who learned TM, due to the era we started, were already in
the Eastern get-enlightened mindset and the notion of being or
emulating a Yogi was pretty well standardized and that was our model. 
So, even with the admonition to do nothing more than meditate for 40
minutes per day, we were pretty ready to take on saintly behavior.

I know I can still get pretty angry after 30+ years of TMing, and all
the rounding I've done. I never figured this would be what life was
like after so many years and so many asanas, pranayam, and TM. I wish
I had been more natural and true to myself in the early years and
perhaps things could have turned out differently.

Peter put it so well in another post in this strand when he made
reference to people's projection of the God archetype. I think that is
what very many have done.





> If one were to postulate or articulate an ultimate state of growth and
> evolution -- as some texts and "authorities" do -- something I don't
> see much value in, but who knows -- then it seems reasonable, from
> that angle, that improved behavior may also reach its pinnacle or its
> trajectory: minimal (or perhaps even zero) anger, guilt, embarassment,
> jealousy, and reactiveness, along with maximum happiness, sparkle,
> love, tolerance, flexibility and compassion. Do you find such a
> trajectory absurd?
> 
> Just a small aside. Byron Katie (in her second book) states that
> enlightenment is available through her teachings. That may simply be
> an indication that the term has become more diluted, further losing
> much of any usefulness with the current onslought of neo-advaitan and
> new-age abuse of the word and concept.  Regardless, without trying to
> map her use of the word with others', for her, its at a minimum, some
> state of inner light and freedom. And her techniques specifically
> affect action / behaviors, inner and outer. Inner being thought
> patterns and behaviors and outer being action in the world. Thus, at
> least on current example comes to mind where behavior is said to be
> "vastly" improved in "enlightenment" compared to non-enlightenment.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[peterklutz]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> 
> > > Action, indeed, should be understood,
> > > wrong action should also be understood,
> > > and inaction should be understood as well.
> > > Unfathomable is the course of action.
> > > 
> > > MMY comments, in part:
> > > 
> > > "The Lord has said that knowledge of action is
> > > necessary and yet, the course of action being
> > > unfathomable, knowledge of it must remain
> > > incomplete.  
> > 
> > That knoweldge of action is incomplete, not totally absent, is a
> > huge point many appear to miss. Time and time again "Unfathomable 
> > is the course of action" is trotted out to claim that we can have no
> > knowledge of the effects of our actions. Such nonesense.
> 
> Unquestionably nonsense.  (However, that isn't
> directly relevant to the point I was making about
> its being impossible to use behavior as the
> criterion for enlightenment.)
> 
> > We can have a reasonable and useful level of such knowlede. And with
> > various abilities refined, some may have quite a bit of on-target 
> > abilities. 
> 
> If we didn't use it, we couldn't function at all.
> 
> > The point is, there is always going to be an "error term", just as
> > statistical models all have error terms. They might explain 60% or
> > 90% of the fluctuations of some phenomenon, but not all of it. 
> > There are always some unexplained influences and effects. That does 
> > not mean that such models are useless. Quite the contrary. In a 
> > similar fashion, humans can know some efect of acions. In some caes 
> > quite a bit of the effect.
> 
> I'd suggest that our knowledge of the consequences
> of actions becomes less and less certain as the
> ripples of an action's ramifications extend outward
> from the time and place of the action.
> 
> Michael Dean Goodman (on TMNews, I think it was) once
> set out a lengthy account of the potential consequences
> of some simple action unfolding over time in which they
> shifted from negative to positive to negative to positive,
> over and over, extending centuries into the future with
> no end in sight.  It's not difficult to imagine such
> scenarios with any action.
> 
> This is also why the notion of "support of nature" is
> iffy.  An event that seems to be completely positive
> when it happens can have very negative consequences
> down the road, and vice-versa.
>

I think it's a mistake to consider "positive" (sattvic?)
actions/events and evolutionary-promotive action to be the same, 
they are not.

Occasionally the growth of something new can happen only after
something else that stands in the way is destroyed.

If the action that at one time promotes growth is sattvic at another
turn destroys something that holds growth back, the same action -
although displaying both sattvic and tamasic qualities - always serves
to promote evolution.

Conversely, an action that on the surface appears to be sattvic might
in fact be checking progress by overextending the life-span of
something that need to go, whilst at another turn, the same action
might destroy something that should really have been given the chance
to grow.  

In both cases there is action that is sattvic then tamasic (and so
on), but only one of these actions promotes evolution.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

> > Action, indeed, should be understood,
> > wrong action should also be understood,
> > and inaction should be understood as well.
> > Unfathomable is the course of action.
> > 
> > MMY comments, in part:
> > 
> > "The Lord has said that knowledge of action is
> > necessary and yet, the course of action being
> > unfathomable, knowledge of it must remain
> > incomplete.  
> 
> That knoweldge of action is incomplete, not totally absent, is a
> huge point many appear to miss. Time and time again "Unfathomable 
> is the course of action" is trotted out to claim that we can have no
> knowledge of the effects of our actions. Such nonesense.

Unquestionably nonsense.  (However, that isn't
directly relevant to the point I was making about
its being impossible to use behavior as the
criterion for enlightenment.)

> We can have a reasonable and useful level of such knowlede. And with
> various abilities refined, some may have quite a bit of on-target 
> abilities. 

If we didn't use it, we couldn't function at all.

> The point is, there is always going to be an "error term", just as
> statistical models all have error terms. They might explain 60% or
> 90% of the fluctuations of some phenomenon, but not all of it. 
> There are always some unexplained influences and effects. That does 
> not mean that such models are useless. Quite the contrary. In a 
> similar fashion, humans can know some efect of acions. In some caes 
> quite a bit of the effect.

I'd suggest that our knowledge of the consequences
of actions becomes less and less certain as the
ripples of an action's ramifications extend outward
from the time and place of the action.

Michael Dean Goodman (on TMNews, I think it was) once
set out a lengthy account of the potential consequences
of some simple action unfolding over time in which they
shifted from negative to positive to negative to positive,
over and over, extending centuries into the future with
no end in sight.  It's not difficult to imagine such
scenarios with any action.

This is also why the notion of "support of nature" is
iffy.  An event that seems to be completely positive
when it happens can have very negative consequences
down the road, and vice-versa.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[peterklutz]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Oct 10, 2005, at 5:00 PM, peterklutz wrote:
> 
> > In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The
> > first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always
> > acts to promote evolution.
> 
> Precisely...and this would be enlightened *activity*...typically the  
> province of karma buddhas--buddhas who act through enlightened action  
> and activity. Karma buddhas and karma dakinis (the energy of  
> enlightened action) are portrayed in iconography *in profile* because  
> they are too busy to take the time to look straight at you, they're  
> always performing some skillful activity. In the unenlightened,  
> neurotic aspect the karma energy is those who paranoid and have to  
> organize everything--afraid of losing track of all that's going on-- 
> often frantically organizing and controlling everything. In it's  
> enlightened form it becomes "all-accomplishing Wisdom"--and greatly  
> benefits sentient beings.
>

Ok, so control-freaks need not heed MMY's reported 197? comment on
loosing one's bad habits?

:-)







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[Vaj]

On Oct 10, 2005, at 5:00 PM, peterklutz wrote:

> In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The
> first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always
> acts to promote evolution.

Precisely...and this would be enlightened *activity*...typically the  
province of karma buddhas--buddhas who act through enlightened action  
and activity. Karma buddhas and karma dakinis (the energy of  
enlightened action) are portrayed in iconography *in profile* because  
they are too busy to take the time to look straight at you, they're  
always performing some skillful activity. In the unenlightened,  
neurotic aspect the karma energy is those who paranoid and have to  
organize everything--afraid of losing track of all that's going on-- 
often frantically organizing and controlling everything. In it's  
enlightened form it becomes "all-accomplishing Wisdom"--and greatly  
benefits sentient beings.



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[akasha_108]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> 
> > > Even more key, it seems to me, is Krishna's
> > > assertion, "Unfathomable is the course of action."
> > > 
> > BIG SNIP 
> > > 
> > > We can, however, keep in the back of the mind the
> > > recognition that we *could* be wrong in our
> > > evaluation.  We just have no way of knowing.
> > 
> > Nicely put Judy, I meant to bring up this verse in one of my posts
> > on this topic. Is it chapter 4, verse 17 or verse 38?
> 
> 4:17--
> 
> Action, indeed, should be understood,
> wrong action should also be understood,
> and inaction should be understood as well.
> Unfathomable is the course of action.
> 
> MMY comments, in part:
> 
> "The Lord has said that knowledge of action is
> necessary and yet, the course of action being
> unfathomable, knowledge of it must remain
> incomplete.  

That knoweldge of action is incomplete, not totally absent, is a huge
point many appear to miss. Time and time again "Unfathomable is the
course of action" is trotted out to claim that we can have no
knowledge of the effects of our actions. Such nonesense.

We can have a reasonable and useful level of such knowlede. And with
various abilities refined, some may have quite a bit of on-target 
abilities. 

The point is, there is always going to be an "error term", just as
statistical models all have error terms. They might explain 60% or 90%
of the fluctuations of some phenomenon, but not all of it. There are
always some unexplained influences and effects. That does not mean
that such models are useless. Quite the contrary. In a similar
fashion, humans can know some efect of acions. In some caes quite a
bit of the effect. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[akasha_108]

Peter:
Any concept of "enlightened behavior" is
more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary
of the individual than some assessment of
enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term
"enlightened behavior" is an oxymoron. There is no
such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just
behavior, period.

-

Akasha:

Enlightened behavior implies "perfect" behavior. But its not 
dichotomous: uneveloved behavior vs. perfect behavior. There is a huge
spectrum of possible "improved behaviors" releative to ones own
starting point. 

The third benefit of Intro lectures is (was) "improved social
behavior". It does not imply "perfect" behavior, but improved behavior
relative to ones starting point. Among  causitive factors -- from the
script -- are less stress and more love (compassion).  

IME less "stress" left me less reactive. External triggers --
essentially ego threats, such as insults, attempts to guilt-trip or
shame me, jealousies, envy, had much less power to evoke an immediate
or viseral response. I was more flexible and able to absorb a lot of
crap before responding to such. Such responses IMO are a major source
or poor social behavior -- flaring out in anger, hurt or jealousy.

On the positive front, increased happiness and love brought more
sharing of that. 

I would say that meditation has improved my behavior in the long run
and also short runs -- after meditating.  The long run could also be
attributed to maturity, education, etc. But I look to family members
and friends who did not meditate and they still appear to have
reactive behaviors and similar levels of love and compassion as 30
years ago. 

Since I believe that "enlightenment" is not a useful label, I hold
that "enlightened behavior" is also not a useful label -- ending up
with a similar conclusion as you, though via a different path.
However, I think, and have observed, that "improved" behavior" is
quite real and a positive offshoot of sadhanas. Do you find the same,
or do you hold that sadhana have not effect on behavior?

Decreased anger, guilt, embarassment, jealousy, envy, and
reactiveness, along with increased happiness, sparkle, crativity,
love, tolerance, flexibility and compassion seem not only to be
positive correlated with sadhanas but a causitive result of such.  

If one were to postulate or articulate an ultimate state of growth and
evolution -- as some texts and "authorities" do -- something I don't
see much value in, but who knows -- then it seems reasonable, from
that angle, that improved behavior may also reach its pinnacle or its
trajectory: minimal (or perhaps even zero) anger, guilt, embarassment,
jealousy, and reactiveness, along with maximum happiness, sparkle,
love, tolerance, flexibility and compassion. Do you find such a
trajectory absurd?

Just a small aside. Byron Katie (in her second book) states that
enlightenment is available through her teachings. That may simply be
an indication that the term has become more diluted, further losing
much of any usefulness with the current onslought of neo-advaitan and
new-age abuse of the word and concept.  Regardless, without trying to
map her use of the word with others', for her, its at a minimum, some
state of inner light and freedom. And her techniques specifically
affect action / behaviors, inner and outer. Inner being thought
patterns and behaviors and outer being action in the world. Thus, at
least on current example comes to mind where behavior is said to be
"vastly" improved in "enlightenment" compared to non-enlightenment.









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:

> > Even more key, it seems to me, is Krishna's
> > assertion, "Unfathomable is the course of action."
> > 
> BIG SNIP 
> > 
> > We can, however, keep in the back of the mind the
> > recognition that we *could* be wrong in our
> > evaluation.  We just have no way of knowing.
> 
> Nicely put Judy, I meant to bring up this verse in one of my posts
> on this topic. Is it chapter 4, verse 17 or verse 38?

4:17--

Action, indeed, should be understood,
wrong action should also be understood,
and inaction should be understood as well.
Unfathomable is the course of action.

MMY comments, in part:

"The Lord has said that knowledge of action is
necessary and yet, the course of action being
unfathomable, knowledge of it must remain
incomplete.  He therefore brings to light a
techique by which the effects of knowledge will
be gained without the necessity for gaining the
knowledgeWhat is important is the effect,
not the knowledge."






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[wmurphy77]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > > --- anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > -- snip --
> >  
> > > Nicely put. Any concept of "enlightened behavior" is
> > > more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary
> > > of the individual than some assessment of
> > > enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term
> > > "enlightened behavior" is an oxymoron. There is no
> > > such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just
> > > behavior, period. 
> > > 
> > In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance.
> > The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) 
> > always acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three 
> > gunas, enlightened people act under the influence of sattva.
> 
> Even more key, it seems to me, is Krishna's
> assertion, "Unfathomable is the course of action."
> 
> If it's the case that we cannot know all the
> ramifications of someone's behavior, as the
> assertion implies, then we can't know whether a
> given behavior does or does not promote evolution,
> which means we cannot use behavior as a criterion
> of enlightenment.
> 
> For any act, even if it appears to be thoroughly
> evil, it's possible to imagine a scenario in which
> the act has evolution-promoting consequences, even
> if they may come to fruition way down the line (and
> vice-versa, of course, for an apparently good action).
> 
> This does NOT mean that we should unquestioningly
> accept the behavior of someone we assume is
> enlightened in the belief that it ultimately has
> to have evolutionary consequences--because we have
> no way of knowing for sure if the person *is*
> enlightened.
> 
> So "Unfathomable is the course of action" cuts
> both ways: we can't tell from behavior whether
> someone is enlightened, and because we can't tell,
> we can't assume the behavior is ultimately going to
> have evolutionary consequences.
> 
> In other words, assuming someone is enlightened
> makes absolutely zero difference to how we should
> regard his/her actions.  We can only evaluate
> his/her behavior the same way we evaluate anybody
> else's.
> 
> We can, however, keep in the back of the mind the
> recognition that we *could* be wrong in our
> evaluation.  We just have no way of knowing.

Right on Judy, you know sometimes, in spite of all those thoughts 
running around in your head at random, you hit the nail right on the 
head, (but then a broken clock is right twice a day too). Gaday! Yu 
no whooo, (b!) halloween's coming where's Delia?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[anonymousff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > > --- anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > -- snip --
> >  
> > > Nicely put. Any concept of "enlightened behavior" is
> > > more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary
> > > of the individual than some assessment of
> > > enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term
> > > "enlightened behavior" is an oxymoron. There is no
> > > such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just
> > > behavior, period. 
> > > 
> > In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance.
> > The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) 
> > always acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three 
> > gunas, enlightened people act under the influence of sattva.
> 
> Even more key, it seems to me, is Krishna's
> assertion, "Unfathomable is the course of action."
> 
BIG SNIP 
> 
> We can, however, keep in the back of the mind the
> recognition that we *could* be wrong in our
> evaluation.  We just have no way of knowing.
>

Nicely put Judy, I meant to bring up this verse in one of my posts on
this topic. Is it chapter 4, verse 17 or verse 38?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> -- snip --
>  
> > Nicely put. Any concept of "enlightened behavior" is
> > more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary
> > of the individual than some assessment of
> > enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term
> > "enlightened behavior" is an oxymoron. There is no
> > such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just
> > behavior, period. 
> > 
> In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance.
> The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) 
> always acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three 
> gunas, enlightened people act under the influence of sattva.

Even more key, it seems to me, is Krishna's
assertion, "Unfathomable is the course of action."

If it's the case that we cannot know all the
ramifications of someone's behavior, as the
assertion implies, then we can't know whether a
given behavior does or does not promote evolution,
which means we cannot use behavior as a criterion
of enlightenment.

For any act, even if it appears to be thoroughly
evil, it's possible to imagine a scenario in which
the act has evolution-promoting consequences, even
if they may come to fruition way down the line (and
vice-versa, of course, for an apparently good action).

This does NOT mean that we should unquestioningly
accept the behavior of someone we assume is
enlightened in the belief that it ultimately has
to have evolutionary consequences--because we have
no way of knowing for sure if the person *is*
enlightened.

So "Unfathomable is the course of action" cuts
both ways: we can't tell from behavior whether
someone is enlightened, and because we can't tell,
we can't assume the behavior is ultimately going to
have evolutionary consequences.

In other words, assuming someone is enlightened
makes absolutely zero difference to how we should
regard his/her actions.  We can only evaluate
his/her behavior the same way we evaluate anybody
else's.

We can, however, keep in the back of the mind the
recognition that we *could* be wrong in our
evaluation.  We just have no way of knowing.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[Peter]

--- peterklutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> -- snip --
>  
> > Nicely put. Any concept of "enlightened behavior"
> is
> > more a reflection of a cultural/psychological
> boundary
> > of the individual than some assessment of
> > enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the
> term
> > "enlightened behavior" is an oxymoron. There is no
> > such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just
> > behavior, period. 
> > 
> 
> In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be
> of guidance. The
> first is that an enlightened individual (another
> oxymoron..?) always
> acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the
> three gunas,
> enlightened people act under the influence of
> sattva.
> 
> Given the press conference of lately I would venture
> a guess that one
> is always true but that two is a matter of choice -
> and then perhaps
> what the times require to promote the smoothest
> evolution possible for
> the cosmically assigned area of responsibility (the
> World, in MMY's case).
> 
> History has previously recorded enlightened people
> acting in manners
> that in effect made their physical bodies the focal
> point for
> collective bad karma. The Ultimate Sacrifice, I
> believe it's called
> when people who are not Self-realized passes through
> this particular
> experience. 
> 
> What is it called for someone who is enlightened,
> when a ripple aware
> of it's status as the Ocean levels out and in the
> process performs a
> yagya that resounds for millenia to come?

I think you are attributing qualities and abilities to
the enlightened that just aren't there. It's more a
projection of the God archetype than anything else.



> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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>  
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[anonymousff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> -- snip --
>  
> > Nicely put. Any concept of "enlightened behavior" is
> > more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary
> > of the individual than some assessment of
> > enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term
> > "enlightened behavior" is an oxymoron. There is no
> > such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just
> > behavior, period. 
> > 
> 
> In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The
> first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always
> acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three gunas,
> enlightened people act under the influence of sattva.
> 
> Given the press conference of lately I would venture a guess that one
> is always true but that two is a matter of choice - and then perhaps
> what the times require to promote the smoothest evolution possible for
> the cosmically assigned area of responsibility (the World, in MMY's
case).
> 
> History has previously recorded enlightened people acting in manners
> that in effect made their physical bodies the focal point for
> collective bad karma. The Ultimate Sacrifice, I believe it's called
> when people who are not Self-realized passes through this particular
> experience. 
> 
> What is it called for someone who is enlightened, when a ripple aware
> of it's status as the Ocean levels out and in the process performs a
> yagya that resounds for millenia to come?
>

After years of listening and taking in all of the varying explanations
for varieities of understandings and behaviors I don't really believe
that anyone, Maharishi inlcuded, really knows what they are talking
about. He, like the rest of us, grew up with a worldview, was steeped
in one far diffeerent than the rest of us, and then came forth to
bring his worldview into ours. Like most business-entrprenreneur types
he could have been successful or not and he made the best use of his
contacts and particuarly the era of the late 60s without which, we may
still be practicing (to my delight) TM for 20 minutes twice per day
instead of the "no change in lifestyle or belief" total change in
lifestyle and belief being propagated.

Who is to say from the outside what actions are for the benefit of
individuals or the whole of mankind. We certainly have our
generationally conditioned beliefs that seem pretty deeply ingrained
in universal collective consciousness. 

However, in the overall span of time, our era is but a small blip on
the screen and I am no longer willing to give someone such as
Maharishi the benefit of the doubt. At this point I can listen and
discern for myself and my life of experience  whether someone's
actions/teachings are just another plug for a self-serving
self-aggrandizing technique-system-fundraising scheme, etc.









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[peterklutz]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

-- snip --
 
> Nicely put. Any concept of "enlightened behavior" is
> more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary
> of the individual than some assessment of
> enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term
> "enlightened behavior" is an oxymoron. There is no
> such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just
> behavior, period. 
> 

In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The
first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always
acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three gunas,
enlightened people act under the influence of sattva.

Given the press conference of lately I would venture a guess that one
is always true but that two is a matter of choice - and then perhaps
what the times require to promote the smoothest evolution possible for
the cosmically assigned area of responsibility (the World, in MMY's case).

History has previously recorded enlightened people acting in manners
that in effect made their physical bodies the focal point for
collective bad karma. The Ultimate Sacrifice, I believe it's called
when people who are not Self-realized passes through this particular
experience. 

What is it called for someone who is enlightened, when a ripple aware
of it's status as the Ocean levels out and in the process performs a
yagya that resounds for millenia to come?






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[Vaj]

On Oct 10, 2005, at 4:06 PM, Peter wrote:

> Nicely put. Any concept of "enlightened behavior" is
> more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary
> of the individual than some assessment of
> enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term
> "enlightened behavior" is an oxymoron. There is no
> such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just
> behavior, period.

Yeah, all those buddhafields are just there for decoration!




--

"Things are not as they seem,
 nor are they otherwise"
 --a Buddhist Sutra






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[Vaj]

On 10/10/05 3:28 PM, "anonymousff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Interesting point.
>> 
>> It's different though as we approach Unity and the "extinction of all
>> phenomenon". There's actually a yogic saying on this which states
>> "Ascend with Conduct, Descend with the View." In other words, as your
>> consciousness begins to assume the POV of Unity and begins to exhaust
>> all it's karma, one's conduct--in terms of the karmic imprints one
>> makes and the quality of ones actions--must be exemplary--so the
>> conduct must rise. If you can do that, you will exhaust all karmic
>> potentials.
>> 
> 
> I once believed that but I no longer do.
> To me all the whole sheband now means is that whoever you are, however
> you act, as you become increasingly free from the binding influence of
> action, you become increasingly free from the binding influence of action.
> How that plays out is totally individual and all else is mere
> moodmaking about the state.
> 
> How many TMers adopted a lifestyle commensurate with higher states of
> consciousness only to have the whole thing backfire on them? Some seem
> to naturally beome nicer people that is until someone cuts them off
> while driving, or when they bang their thumb with a hammer.

The fine points here are "quality" and "exemplary"--as if one has acquired
the state of Unity and can carry it in all actions then one can perform any
action. However there is such a thing as ³losing the Action in the View².
Not all spontaneity is enlightened spontaneity.

Life is in the details--as a tantric Buddha once said " Though my View is as
spacious as the sky, my actions and respect for cause and effect are as fine
as grains of flour."




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[Peter]

--- anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj
snip

> 
> I once believed that but I no longer do. 
> To me all the whole sheband now means is that
> whoever you are, however
> you act, as you become increasingly free from the
> binding influence of
> action, you become increasingly free from the
> binding influence of action.
> How that plays out is totally individual and all
> else is mere
> moodmaking about the state.

Nicely put. Any concept of "enlightened behavior" is
more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary
of the individual than some assessment of
enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term
"enlightened behavior" is an oxymoron. There is no
such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just
behavior, period. 



> 
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> 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened

[anonymousff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Oct 10, 2005, at 1:04 PM, anonymousff wrote:
> 
> > FWIW, in numerous lectures at the first Mallorca TTC, Jan-June, 1971,
> > Maharishi told us (many times) that we should get rid of as many bad
> > habits as possible before CC because they wouldn't go away just
> > because we were enlightened. He said clearly we take our bad habits
> > with us.
> >
> > This speaks volumes to me now, close to 35 years later, when we are
> > all (or at least many) finally realizing that appearing to be
> > saintly-whether strictly the *look* of saintliness, the pretty words
> > of enlightenment from a real saint or a poseur-may be nothing but the
> > Emperor's new new clothes.
> 
> Interesting point.
> 
> It's different though as we approach Unity and the "extinction of all  
> phenomenon". There's actually a yogic saying on this which states  
> "Ascend with Conduct, Descend with the View." In other words, as your  
> consciousness begins to assume the POV of Unity and begins to exhaust  
> all it's karma, one's conduct--in terms of the karmic imprints one  
> makes and the quality of ones actions--must be exemplary--so the  
> conduct must rise. If you can do that, you will exhaust all karmic  
> potentials.
>

I once believed that but I no longer do. 
To me all the whole sheband now means is that whoever you are, however
you act, as you become increasingly free from the binding influence of
action, you become increasingly free from the binding influence of action.
How that plays out is totally individual and all else is mere
moodmaking about the state.

How many TMers adopted a lifestyle commensurate with higher states of
consciousness only to have the whole thing backfire on them? Some seem
to naturally beome nicer people that is until someone cuts them off
while driving, or when they bang their thumb with a hammer.







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