[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
If history has anything to say, If history had anything to say, it wouldn't keep repeating itself. :-) what I think you're feeling in revering Shakerisms is the same thing you try to promote here on FFL, Doug -- a sense of community. The Fairfield Meditating Community? The Larger FF Meditating Community: Its residents are determined to secure as many hours as possible from necessary toil in order to spend more leisure time for the production of intellectual goods. The meditators are not countenancing primitivism, but hope to provide all the elegances desirable for bodily and spiritual health: books, apparatus, collections for science, works of art, means of beautiful amusements. The Fairfield meditating community is not conceived to be a pastoral retreat from life but intent to be a revived city on the hill community. In a practical alternative to American competitive capitalism the Fairfield meditating community is a place for those eager to pursue the transcendental spiritual practice of inner Self-culture within a community of like-minded souls. It will be a light over all this country and age. If not the sunrise, it will be the morning star. The Fairfield unaffiliated meditating community, aims to be rich, not in the metallic representation of wealth, but in wealth itself, which money should represent, namely, in leisure to live in all the faculties of the soul. -1840's excerpts FF meditating comunity? Some lot like 1840's transcendentalists, evidently would be alot like going out at noon and dining in FF downtown. They call some of the residents here Transcendentalists. You may judge from the name that they must be either very good or very bad people, but they represent people of education who are a little high stilted in their religious views, and do not take in all the wonderful Mosaic traditions. At least, this is as near as I can explain it to you. It is the fashion to call every one who has any independent notions a Transcendentalist, but I do not know who invented the name or first applied it. The people here do not dispute on religious creeds; they are too busy. They work together, dine and sup together year in and year out in intimate social relation, and do not either have angry disputes, or quarrels about creeds or anything else. On the contrary, I am much surprised at the earnest inquiry that is often made into the beliefs of others, or rather into the groundwork or foundation from which the churches sprung which have different tenets from their own. Brook Farm: http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/dirs/etext05/brkfm10.htm Not revering, just observing. Just proactive interest. Not just Shakerisms. Not revering but steeping some little in 18th and 19th Century American spiritual movements and their European and Eastern roots. With all due respect, I think we can safely say that any Eastern roots you see in early American spiritual traditions were projected there. No such influence would have been possible or tolerated. Om by the way. Actually, Jefferson kept a copy of the B. Gita in his library. Emerson, Thoreau, Fuller, Parker delighted in study of the B. Gita in their time. These later referenced and wrote about it and it seems some carried it with them for their own inspiration then. Jai Guru B. Gita? Evidently there were translation copies around and they were passed around some in Colonial through the 19th Century. No, no need to project any hopeful values back on to them. Seems they was there anyway in the mix. JAS, -D in FF Is a lot of descriptive material available and some that is proscriptive, that can be learned from about life of spiritual movements. The proscriptive insights they give in their own voice can be a useful perspective to how it is going for Transcendental Meditation. That is true. And I think that as much can be learned from the failures of previous spiritual movements as can be learned from their successes. For example, if a community such as Shakerism felt that they had The Answer to a happy life but died out within a century, there is something to be learned from that. If the reclusive, divorce-ourselves-from-the-outside-world communities tended to fade out and disappear (as they did), that might in fact bode badly for the TMO. Clearly, I enjoy tripping on past spiritual movements as well. I am quite taken with the Cathars and their lifestyle, even though their dualist philosophy is 180 degrees opposed to my own. I think one can learn some valuable lessons from how they lived, and what happened to them as a result of living that way. The same is obviously true about early American com- munities. America's whole *myth* revolves around the idea of
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
Probably within the Dome attending community, if people are hearing voices and it is a problem, then they usually get rooted out with/for mental disturbance. Administratively referred to mental health people otherwise. That's the way you'd see it on the ground here in FF. -D That of course is the movement, they would have to handle it that way administratively or they'd get haunted by legal reprisal. So they stay to the `mental health'administrative aspect of a practical necessity. However, on a practical level amongst a practicing and spiritual meditating community, when some folks do get in to astral troubles of too much spiritism, there is local folklore advice that runs towards the adept folks. Some places for those afflicted to go for help of a spiritual nature again bad spiritism: http://www.timeportalpubs.com/ http://youdeservetobeclear.com/index.htm 'safety first' practical home remedy advice does gets e-mailed around the FF transcendental meditating community like this below. In addition to the SBS Guru Dev quote and some guiding scriptural reference further back in this thread, for perspective about folks afflicted with negative energies or overly afficted spiritists this is one that gets shared, paste THE TOWER OF LIGHT MEDITATION Yes, and we would like to walk you through a meditation called The Tower of Light. This is one of the most delicious, and brief, meditations you can do to charge up your energy in the morning and to put a fully protective shield around yourself. Are you all willing to learn this? [All assent.] Good, and if you would, please, stand. Is there anyone here who's not particularly visual? It's more kinesthetic. [One person affirmed that she's more kinesthetic.] Okay. It's primarily visual, but you will probably be able to feel even more interesting things than the others. Okay. Now please take some big, deep in-breaths as is comfortable for you. Don't force it. Make the out-breath go all the way out; the in-breath, all the way in. Let your arms dangle comfortably at your sides. We would like you to visualize a beautiful, blue light surrounding your body and permeating your body, so that it's about 9 inches out-in front and behind and all around-and about 16 inches above your head and about 16 inches below your feet. You'll find out the reason for this in a moment. Feeling it is important too. One kind of channeling is also clairsentience--clear sensing, and so try to feel that blue light and the frequency of that. It's not as dark as indigo. It will be your own particular frequency that you like and that will come to you naturally. Are you all surrounded by that ellipsoid of blue light? Good. Now, about 16 inches above your head, within that blue but not touching your crown, is a beautiful globe of brilliant white light that is like burning magnesium. Are you able to visualize this there? Now feel showering down out of that globe of white light (which happens to be your Higher Self) that globe, showering little specks of that burning magnesium all down into the center of this ellipsoid. Are some of you feeling that as well as seeing it? Good. Now, out of that same white, burning-magnesium-type, light, beautiful silvery sparkles are showering down until they fill with those white snowflake-type particles the entire inside, so that only a blue outline surrounds that ellipsoid. Tell us when that is happening for you. That should be feeling pretty good right now. This is the power of Light. Know that this is protection. Know that this connects you directly with your Higher Self--and fills you and rejuvenates you with life force and, again, through a bi-directional communication with your Higher Self. Enjoy that for another moment. Then just let that fade from your vision and experience, knowing that it has not faded in reality. When you can tear yourself away, please be seated again. Good, and we suggest you do this in the morning--if you remember: especially in the morning--and, if you wish, at night right before you go to sleep, surround yourself with this beautiful, exquisite energy. It's one of the most powerful protections you can do. [End of meditation.] AT LIGHTHOUSE BOOKSTORE IN SUPERIOR, CO (4/13/07)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
#137460 Edg --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony...@... wrote: Probably within the Dome attending community, if people are hearing voices and it is a problem, then they usually get rooted out with/for mental disturbance. Administratively referred to mental health people otherwise. That's the way you'd see it on the ground here in FF. -D That of course is the movement, they would have to handle it that way administratively or they'd get haunted by legal reprisal. So they stay to the `mental health'administrative aspect of a practical necessity. However, on a practical level amongst a practicing and spiritual meditating community, when some folks do get in to astral troubles of too much spiritism, there is local folklore advice that runs towards the adept folks. Some places for those afflicted to go for help of a spiritual nature again bad spiritism: http://www.timeportalpubs.com/ http://youdeservetobeclear.com/index.htm 'safety first' practical home remedy advice does gets e-mailed around the FF transcendental meditating community like this below. In addition to the SBS Guru Dev quote and some guiding scriptural reference further back in this thread, for perspective about folks afflicted with negative energies or overly afficted spiritists this is one that gets shared, paste THE TOWER OF LIGHT MEDITATION Yes, and we would like to walk you through a meditation called The Tower of Light. This is one of the most delicious, and brief, meditations you can do to charge up your energy in the morning and to put a fully protective shield around yourself. Are you all willing to learn this? [All assent.] Good, and if you would, please, stand. Is there anyone here who's not particularly visual? It's more kinesthetic. [One person affirmed that she's more kinesthetic.] Okay. It's primarily visual, but you will probably be able to feel even more interesting things than the others. Okay. Now please take some big, deep in-breaths as is comfortable for you. Don't force it. Make the out-breath go all the way out; the in-breath, all the way in. Let your arms dangle comfortably at your sides. We would like you to visualize a beautiful, blue light surrounding your body and permeating your body, so that it's about 9 inches out-in front and behind and all around-and about 16 inches above your head and about 16 inches below your feet. You'll find out the reason for this in a moment. Feeling it is important too. One kind of channeling is also clairsentience--clear sensing, and so try to feel that blue light and the frequency of that. It's not as dark as indigo. It will be your own particular frequency that you like and that will come to you naturally. Are you all surrounded by that ellipsoid of blue light? Good. Now, about 16 inches above your head, within that blue but not touching your crown, is a beautiful globe of brilliant white light that is like burning magnesium. Are you able to visualize this there? Now feel showering down out of that globe of white light (which happens to be your Higher Self) that globe, showering little specks of that burning magnesium all down into the center of this ellipsoid. Are some of you feeling that as well as seeing it? Good. Now, out of that same white, burning-magnesium-type, light, beautiful silvery sparkles are showering down until they fill with those white snowflake-type particles the entire inside, so that only a blue outline surrounds that ellipsoid. Tell us when that is happening for you. That should be feeling pretty good right now. This is the power of Light. Know that this is protection. Know that this connects you directly with your Higher Self--and fills you and rejuvenates you with life force and, again, through a bi-directional communication with your Higher Self. Enjoy that for another moment. Then just let that fade from your vision and experience, knowing that it has not faded in reality. When you can tear yourself away, please be seated again. Good, and we suggest you do this in the morning--if you remember: especially in the morning--and, if you wish, at night right before you go to sleep, surround yourself with this beautiful, exquisite energy. It's one of the most powerful protections you can do. [End of meditation.] AT LIGHTHOUSE BOOKSTORE IN SUPERIOR, CO (4/13/07)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
This one gets sent around the community too on the subject of spiritism affliction. Seems more directly the transcendental perspective. paste Of Negative Energy, in Method Un-edited without attribution or permission -anonymous Love is a form of insight. If someone says something to you and they have some observation about you, you can watch yourself thinking, I don't know whether I want to take that in. If the person doesn't do it perfectly, if they don't say it exactly the way your mind wants to hear it, you just reject it. You can't pull the kernel of truth out of a stone. The purpose of insight meditation is to get that kernel of truth to come out of the stone, and to particularly get it out of people who have no skillful means, that is, they're abrupt and they don't know how to do it nicely, they're not poised, they don't have good delivery. The purpose of insight meditation is to see the truth coming from people who you perceive as enemies or that are ruthless in some way. The purpose of insight meditation is to turn your enemies into friends. It means that you have to have insight into how their enmity can be friendly to you. They can teach you about yourself. The result of that, ideally, is that you don't insulate yourself and always surround yourself with supporters. You are courageous enough to be in the presence of people who are not of skillful means, doing the right thing at the right moment, and you're able to pull truth even out of that stone. That makes it possible to pull love out of anything, out of a dead branch. That is the nature of insight meditation. There are a lot of situations in life in which love is not so easily seen. There are people who, for whatever reason, make themselves into your enemy, who throw stuff at you that is really hurtful, and not even stuff that's unconscious but rakshasic, demonic stuff. Those rakshasas, those demons, those bad guys are there to help you practice. That's their job, that's what they do. The way they help you practice is that you see them for what they are. You realize that if there's negative energy coming your way from another person which is not allowing you to experience the field of love between you and them, it is not only them doing that but there is an entity doing that, a negative force that is blocking the love. It doesn't want the love to be there, it's invested in that, it's employed by the devil, if you want to call it that, the dark side, the shadow. When you recognize that something is getting in the way between you loving another person, it is one of those or a cluster or aggregate of those. In both the Hindu and the Buddhist tradition the idea is to shoot them in the foot, to cut through, to completely annihilate their power, to debilitate them, to get them out of your life. How do you get rid of those demonic beings that are breaking up the love, that are destroying the love between you and your family, your relations, your lover? This is another important point about insight meditation. It teaches you that they exist, that it's not your imagination, and what to do with them. What do you do with them? When you see that another person is emanating a powerful negative energy and they may not even know it, then you have a job to do. As a spiritual person you're on call. Your job is to shoot this thing, get rid of it, take it out, annihilate it, blast it, explode it. How do you do that? When you have an enemy of this rakshasic nature, which it isn't always, sometimes it's at a personality structure level, but if it is, if that's what's coming at you, you have to get rid of it. If its job is to create fear, it will generate more fear. If its job is to create anger, it will generate more anger. That's what rakshasas do. That's their job. According to a lot of scriptures, they don't have a choice, they're slaves, essentially, of the dark side, they are made to do that, they don't have free will. Basically they are there to fight you into sadness, into fear, into anger, into jealousy, but ultimately they are there to cause you to break from practice. They're sadhana breakers. They're there to stop you from practicing, from doing what you know is the best thing for your evolution. How do you stop them from stopping you? From a transcendent point of view, the way that you stop rakshasas is that you get deeper into the transcendent that they are sourced from. If they're here and they have a pipeline into the transcendent and it's this far down and that's where they're getting their rakshasa juice from, you go down lower. You have to go underneath them to get at them. It's like what Maharishi said, you can't solve a problem on the level of the problem. You have to go underneath where they're sourced. However, their job is to keep you from doing that. They don't want you to get underneath them because they know that when you do that their jig is up. They will do
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
If history has anything to say, If history had anything to say, it wouldn't keep repeating itself. :-) what I think you're feeling in revering Shakerisms is the same thing you try to promote here on FFL, Doug -- a sense of community. FF meditating comunity? Some lot like 1940's transcendentalists, evidently would be alot like going out at noon and dining in FF downtown. They call some of the residents here Transcendentalists. You may judge from the name that they must be either very good or very bad people, but they represent people of education who are a little high stilted in their religious views, and do not take in all the wonderful Mosaic traditions. At least, this is as near as I can explain it to you. It is the fashion to call every one who has any independent notions a Transcendentalist, but I do not know who invented the name or first applied it. The people here do not dispute on religious creeds; they are too busy. They work together, dine and sup together year in and year out in intimate social relation, and do not either have angry disputes, or quarrels about creeds or anything else. On the contrary, I am much surprised at the earnest inquiry that is often made into the beliefs of others, or rather into the groundwork or foundation from which the churches sprung which have different tenets from their own. Brook Farm: http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/dirs/etext05/brkfm10.htm Not revering, just observing. Just proactive interest. Not just Shakerisms. Not revering but steeping some little in 18th and 19th Century American spiritual movements and their European and Eastern roots. With all due respect, I think we can safely say that any Eastern roots you see in early American spiritual traditions were projected there. No such influence would have been possible or tolerated. Om by the way. Actually, Jefferson kept a copy of the B. Gita in his library. Emerson, Thoreau, Fuller, Parker delighted in study of the B. Gita in their time. These later referenced and wrote about it and it seems some carried it with them for their own inspiration then. Jai Guru B. Gita? Evidently there were translation copies around and they were passed around some in Colonial through the 19th Century. No, no need to project any hopeful values back on to them. Seems they was there anyway in the mix. JAS, -D in FF Is a lot of descriptive material available and some that is proscriptive, that can be learned from about life of spiritual movements. The proscriptive insights they give in their own voice can be a useful perspective to how it is going for Transcendental Meditation. That is true. And I think that as much can be learned from the failures of previous spiritual movements as can be learned from their successes. For example, if a community such as Shakerism felt that they had The Answer to a happy life but died out within a century, there is something to be learned from that. If the reclusive, divorce-ourselves-from-the-outside-world communities tended to fade out and disappear (as they did), that might in fact bode badly for the TMO. Clearly, I enjoy tripping on past spiritual movements as well. I am quite taken with the Cathars and their lifestyle, even though their dualist philosophy is 180 degrees opposed to my own. I think one can learn some valuable lessons from how they lived, and what happened to them as a result of living that way. The same is obviously true about early American com- munities. America's whole *myth* revolves around the idea of religious freedom -- a place where you can go and really *act out* your beliefs, no matter how oddball and non-mainstream they are. That was not permitted in Europe, so many came to America hoping to create communities that reflected their beliefs. I guess my only point in jumping in to your posts about the Shakers is that if you're going to learn from history, one of the lessons you shouldn't ignore is whether the spiritual community you're studying is still around. If it isn't -- for what- ever reason -- there is probably as much to be learned from *that* history as there is from a study of what they believed. If the TM movement is still around in a hundred years, historians will be interested in what they believed. If it isn't, they will be interested more in why what they believed didn't work.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
snip However, is noteable to find Maharaj Tony and Raja Konhaus lately 'pitching' channeling and spiritualism as a direction for re-kindle and salvation for the TMmovement after Maharishi, in distinction to what was a meditator shakti movement. Seemingly becomes now a contest on the road to Damascus to find who 'hears' from Maharishi the clearest, as they are framing it. I must have missed this. When and where and how, exactly, have Tony and Konhaus pitched channeling and spiritualism and hearing from Maharishi? Do we know this for a fact? What are some examples? Judy, You do have amazing research skills evidently some time. Take a look at an index to FFL, scroll down to the area around Maharishi's death. That will get you to the area. Was in the movement's global chats and the Maharishi Open University broadcasts that these guys gave in that time of freefall. Almost seemed they started down the road to Damascus towards being a spiritualist organization and were called back to being a spirituality group. Would bet Euros that they have taken down the links now. However, was something that evidently got played out at the inner TM circle in Vlodrop at the time as they were trying to sort themselves out and find language for themselves and the TMmovement in those days. Sorry you missed it the first time around. It seemed noteworthy and evidently has passed. -Doug in FF
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
Translation: This existed in Doug's mind only. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony...@... wrote: snip However, is noteable to find Maharaj Tony and Raja Konhaus lately 'pitching' channeling and spiritualism as a direction for re-kindle and salvation for the TMmovement after Maharishi, in distinction to what was a meditator shakti movement. Seemingly becomes now a contest on the road to Damascus to find who 'hears' from Maharishi the clearest, as they are framing it. I must have missed this. When and where and how, exactly, have Tony and Konhaus pitched channeling and spiritualism and hearing from Maharishi? Do we know this for a fact? What are some examples? Judy, You do have amazing research skills evidently some time. Take a look at an index to FFL, scroll down to the area around Maharishi's death. That will get you to the area. Was in the movement's global chats and the Maharishi Open University broadcasts that these guys gave in that time of freefall. Almost seemed they started down the road to Damascus towards being a spiritualist organization and were called back to being a spirituality group. Would bet Euros that they have taken down the links now. However, was something that evidently got played out at the inner TM circle in Vlodrop at the time as they were trying to sort themselves out and find language for themselves and the TMmovement in those days. Sorry you missed it the first time around. It seemed noteworthy and evidently has passed. -Doug in FF
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sun...@... wrote: Translation: This existed in Doug's mind only. I do suspect you're right. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: snip However, is noteable to find Maharaj Tony and Raja Konhaus lately 'pitching' channeling and spiritualism as a direction for re-kindle and salvation for the TMmovement after Maharishi, in distinction to what was a meditator shakti movement. Seemingly becomes now a contest on the road to Damascus to find who 'hears' from Maharishi the clearest, as they are framing it. I must have missed this. When and where and how, exactly, have Tony and Konhaus pitched channeling and spiritualism and hearing from Maharishi? Do we know this for a fact? What are some examples? Judy, You do have amazing research skills evidently some time. Take a look at an index to FFL, scroll down to the area around Maharishi's death. That will get you to the area. Was in the movement's global chats and the Maharishi Open University broadcasts that these guys gave in that time of freefall. Almost seemed they started down the road to Damascus towards being a spiritualist organization and were called back to being a spirituality group. Would bet Euros that they have taken down the links now. However, was something that evidently got played out at the inner TM circle in Vlodrop at the time as they were trying to sort themselves out and find language for themselves and the TMmovement in those days. Sorry you missed it the first time around. It seemed noteworthy and evidently has passed. -Doug in FF
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony...@... wrote: [quoting Doug:] snip However, is noteable to find Maharaj Tony and Raja Konhaus lately 'pitching' channeling and spiritualism as a direction for re-kindle and salvation for the TMmovement after Maharishi, in distinction to what was a meditator shakti movement. Seemingly becomes now a contest on the road to Damascus to find who 'hears' from Maharishi the clearest, as they are framing it. [I wrote:] I must have missed this. When and where and how, exactly, have Tony and Konhaus pitched channeling and spiritualism and hearing from Maharishi? Do we know this for a fact? What are some examples? Judy, You do have amazing research skills evidently some time. Take a look at an index to FFL, scroll down to the area around Maharishi's death. That will get you to the area. Was in the movement's global chats and the Maharishi Open University broadcasts that these guys gave in that time of freefall. Almost seemed they started down the road to Damascus towards being a spiritualist organization and were called back to being a spirituality group. Funny thing, because I've been watching like a hawk for this kind of nonsense ever since MMY died-- especially right after he died--and never saw anything posted here that even remotely fits your description quoted above. The reason I was on the alert for it is that I had previously speculated about the possibility. As I recall, the first time I mentioned it was when it was announced that MMY had anointed King Tony as his successor, and some were surprised because that was well before there was any sign that he was close to leaving us. I said then that I thought he had done so because (1) he wanted to avoid any succession controversy like what occurred with Guru Dev; and (2) he figured if there was someone very visibly in command of the TMO when he died, there would be less chance of the movement splitting into factions on the basis of who claimed to have been told what by MMY from the Great Beyond. Would bet Euros that they have taken down the links now. However, was something that evidently got played out at the inner TM circle in Vlodrop at the time as they were trying to sort themselves out and find language for themselves and the TMmovement in those days. If you're talking about the notion that MMY was in heaven watching over us, this is what I thought too. I didn't find it alarming in the slightest, and it never appeared to progress any further. If anything did come up along the lines you suggest in what I quoted at the top, it must have been very quickly stomped on before it seeped out. Sorry you missed it the first time around. It seemed noteworthy and evidently has passed. If it has passed, why do you keep quoting it in your indexing posts? BTW, for those who insist that the idea of MMY's essence continuing to exist out in the ether in some sense goes against his own teaching that all individuality disappears when an enlightened person dies, I wonder how they would explain the puja to Guru Dev, as well as this from MMY's Gita commentary: The holy tradition of great masters, which is responsible for reviving the teaching after every lapse, has captured the mind and heart of lovers of Truth in every age. It is not merely held in high regard, but has come to be actually worshipped by seekers of Truth and knowers of Reality. A verse* recording the names of the greatest and most highly revered masters has not only inspired seekers, but has been a joy even to the fulfilled hearts of realized souls passing through the long corridor of time. * See Appendix [which quotes the puja]. --Commentary to 4:2 in MMY's Gita translation (copyright 1967)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
HOWEVER, both teachers made a clear distinction between that and the entity with which one has this feeling actually TELLING you things. If there is any kind of *information* being conveyed, then the voice is NOT TO BE TRUSTED. I have found this same teaching in quite a few spir- itual traditions, all of whom make this same distinc- tion. If you hear voices, if you have visions in which someone or something is telling you what to do or what to convince others to do, you may be in fairly serious trouble. Interesting point about this particualar commonality in spiritual traditions. I find it too in the old Quaker ways for instance. Quaker meditation from way back was Patanjali-like and they were group meditators, very spiritual and cultivated that way. They clearly discerned the difference between spiritual practice and spiritualism. Completely discounting the troublesome interference of spiritism in spiritual progress. Shaker spirituality from their writings: While Shakers have little sympathy or affiliation with those coarser phenomena characterized as spiritism, seldom visit séances and have held themselves aloof from the spiristic developments of the times, they have watched with full sympathy the unfolding of a purer, higher type of manifestation and recognize with hope and pleasure the gradual evolution of a portion of mankind to whom the world of spirit is a living reality. The Shakers by contrast were a different movement entirely from Quakerism. Shakers started off in the days of their founder as a spiritual (shakti) movement but seg-wayed in to spiritualism in their succession after the founding generation passed on. Following their founder Shaker generation came the turning of the spiritism trick until it even died out in some time. Seems the first half of the 19th century and then parts of the late 19th century again were fascinated with spiritualists. The shakti of spiritual progress would die down with doctrinal religion of the rise in tide by contrast. Shakers died out with the loss of shakti and then after that the loss or turn down of spiritualism phenomena. Shakers late in the 19th Century and through the 20th century became at a loss for much of anything to keep them going, other than the doctrine of how it once was. See the theme by comparison? The American Transcendentalists, as in Ralph Waldo Emerson, a pure spiritual critic, commentated on this in that day too: Animal magnetism, omens, spiritism, mesmerism have great interest for some minds. They run into this twilight and say, There's more than is dreamed of in your philosophy. Certainly these fact are interesting and deserve to be considered. But they are entitled only to a share of attention, and not a large share. It is a low curiosity or lust of structure, and it is separated by celestial diameters from the love of spiritual truths. It is wholly a false view to couple these things in any manner with the religious nature and sentiment, and a most dangerous superstition to raise them to the lofty place of motives and sanctions. This is to prefer halos and rainbows to the sun and moon. These adepts have mistaken flatulency for inspiration. Were this drivel which they report as the voice of spirits really such we must find out a more decisive suicide. The whole world is an omen and a sign. Why look so wistfully in a corner. Man is the image of God. Why run after a ghost or a dream? -Emerson essay, Demonology Is an old teaching evidently. Like Guru Dev's comment. However, is noteable to find Maharaj Tony and Raja Konhaus lately 'pitching' channeling and spiritualism as a direction for re- kindle and salvation for the TMmovement after Maharishi, in distinction to what was a meditator shakti movement. Seemingly becomes now a contest on the road to Damascus to find who 'hears' from Maharishi the clearest, as they are framing it. Who will be the next Saul? While Konhaus confronts anyone, If you don't beleive, then find another guru. Not a lot of shakti in that teaching. Is a lesson in history too. One thing folks mostly have in common here though is that they came as meditators, or are meditaors from that standpoint. That commonality in itself is a lot different than channeling or even belief in Maharishi. These guys are fighting history with their moodmaking and play-acting spiritism. Run! Jai Guru Dev, -Doug in FF Think of it this way -- you suddenly find yourself dropped into a completely different city. You don't know anyone you meet, or what their intentions are. You don't even know WHERE you are, or where these beings you see come from. And then one of them walks up to you and starts talking to you and telling you things that you should do in your life to make it better, or to make the
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony...@... wrote: snip However, is noteable to find Maharaj Tony and Raja Konhaus lately 'pitching' channeling and spiritualism as a direction for re-kindle and salvation for the TMmovement after Maharishi, in distinction to what was a meditator shakti movement. Seemingly becomes now a contest on the road to Damascus to find who 'hears' from Maharishi the clearest, as they are framing it. I must have missed this. When and where and how, exactly, have Tony and Konhaus pitched channeling and spiritualism and hearing from Maharishi? Do we know this for a fact? What are some examples?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
If history has anything to say, , what I think you're feeling in revering Shakerisms is the same thing you try to promote here on FFL, Doug -- a sense of community. Not revering, just observing. Just proactive interest. Not just Shakerisms. Not revering but steeping some little in 18th and 19th Century American spiritual movements and their European and Eastern roots. Is a lot of descriptive material available and some that is proscriptive, that can be learned from about life of spiritual movements. The proscriptive insights they give in their own voice can be a useful perspective to how it is going for Transcendental Meditation. Jai Adi Shankara, -D in FF I have found this same teaching in quite a few spir- itual traditions, all of whom make this same distinc- tion. If you hear voices, if you have visions in which someone or something is telling you what to do or what to convince others to do, you may be in fairly serious trouble. Interesting point about this particualar commonality in spiritual traditions. I find it too in the old Quaker ways for instance. Quaker meditation from way back was Patanjali-like and they were group meditators, very spiritual and cultivated that way. They clearly discerned the difference between spiritual practice and spiritualism. Completely discounting the troublesome interference of spiritism in spiritual progress. The Shakers by contrast were a different movement entirely from Quakerism. Shakers started off in the days of their founder as a spiritual (shakti) movement but seg-wayed in to spiritualism in their succession after the founding generation passed on. Following their founder Shaker generation came the turning of the spiritism trick until it even died out in some time. Seems the first half of the 19th century and then parts of the late 19th century again were fascinated with spiritualists. The shakti of spiritual progress would die down with doctrinal religion of the rise in tide by contrast. Shakers died out with the loss of shakti and then after that the loss or turn down of spiritualism phenomena. Shakers late in the 19th Century and through the 20th century became at a loss for much of anything to keep them going, other than the doctrine of how it once was. See the theme by comparison? The American Transcendentalists, as in Ralph Waldo Emerson, a pure spiritual critic, commentated on this in that day too: Animal magnetism, omens, spiritism, mesmerism have great interest for some minds. They run into this twilight and say, There's more than is dreamed of in your philosophy. Certainly these fact are interesting and deserve to be considered. But they are entitled only to a share of attention, and not a large share. It is a low curiosity or lust of structure, and it is separated by celestial diameters from the love of spiritual truths. It is wholly a false view to couple these things in any manner with the religious nature and sentiment, and a most dangerous superstition to raise them to the lofty place of motives and sanctions. This is to prefer halos and rainbows to the sun and moon. These adepts have mistaken flatulency for inspiration. Were this drivel which they report as the voice of spirits really such we must find out a more decisive suicide. The whole world is an omen and a sign. Why look so wistfully in a corner. Man is the image of God. Why run after a ghost or a dream? -Emerson essay, Demonology Is an old teaching evidently. Like Guru Dev's comment. However, is noteable to find Maharaj Tony and Raja Konhaus lately 'pitching' channeling and spiritualism as a direction for re- kindle and salvation for the TMmovement after Maharishi, in distinction to what was a meditator shakti movement. Seemingly becomes now a contest on the road to Damascus to find who 'hears' from Maharishi the clearest, as they are framing it. Who will be the next Saul? While Konhaus confronts anyone, If you don't beleive, then find another guru. Not a lot of shakti in that teaching. Is a lesson in history too. One thing folks mostly have in common here though is that they came as meditators, or are meditaors from that standpoint. That commonality in itself is a lot different than channeling or even belief in Maharishi. These guys are fighting history with their moodmaking and play-acting spiritism. Run! Jai Guru Dev, -Doug in FF Think of it this way -- you suddenly find yourself dropped into a completely different city. You don't know anyone you meet, or what their intentions are. You don't even know WHERE you are, or where these beings you see come from. And then one of them walks up to you and starts talking to you and telling you things that you should do in your life to make it better, or to make the lives of others better. Would you believe
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony...@... wrote: If history has anything to say, If history had anything to say, it wouldn't keep repeating itself. :-) what I think you're feeling in revering Shakerisms is the same thing you try to promote here on FFL, Doug -- a sense of community. Not revering, just observing. Just proactive interest. Not just Shakerisms. Not revering but steeping some little in 18th and 19th Century American spiritual movements and their European and Eastern roots. With all due respect, I think we can safely say that any Eastern roots you see in early American spiritual traditions were projected there. No such influence would have been possible or tolerated. Is a lot of descriptive material available and some that is proscriptive, that can be learned from about life of spiritual movements. The proscriptive insights they give in their own voice can be a useful perspective to how it is going for Transcendental Meditation. That is true. And I think that as much can be learned from the failures of previous spiritual movements as can be learned from their successes. For example, if a community such as Shakerism felt that they had The Answer to a happy life but died out within a century, there is something to be learned from that. If the reclusive, divorce-ourselves-from-the-outside-world communities tended to fade out and disappear (as they did), that might in fact bode badly for the TMO. Clearly, I enjoy tripping on past spiritual movements as well. I am quite taken with the Cathars and their lifestyle, even though their dualist philosophy is 180 degrees opposed to my own. I think one can learn some valuable lessons from how they lived, and what happened to them as a result of living that way. The same is obviously true about early American com- munities. America's whole *myth* revolves around the idea of religious freedom -- a place where you can go and really *act out* your beliefs, no matter how oddball and non-mainstream they are. That was not permitted in Europe, so many came to America hoping to create communities that reflected their beliefs. I guess my only point in jumping in to your posts about the Shakers is that if you're going to learn from history, one of the lessons you shouldn't ignore is whether the spiritual community you're studying is still around. If it isn't -- for what- ever reason -- there is probably as much to be learned from *that* history as there is from a study of what they believed. If the TM movement is still around in a hundred years, historians will be interested in what they believed. If it isn't, they will be interested more in why what they believed didn't work.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
Or perhaps the future will see that TM 'works', but not in the way that the TM organisation gives people to believe it works. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: If history has anything to say, If history had anything to say, it wouldn't keep repeating itself. :-) what I think you're feeling in revering Shakerisms is the same thing you try to promote here on FFL, Doug -- a sense of community. Not revering, just observing. Just proactive interest. Not just Shakerisms. Not revering but steeping some little in 18th and 19th Century American spiritual movements and their European and Eastern roots. With all due respect, I think we can safely say that any Eastern roots you see in early American spiritual traditions were projected there. No such influence would have been possible or tolerated. Is a lot of descriptive material available and some that is proscriptive, that can be learned from about life of spiritual movements. The proscriptive insights they give in their own voice can be a useful perspective to how it is going for Transcendental Meditation. That is true. And I think that as much can be learned from the failures of previous spiritual movements as can be learned from their successes. For example, if a community such as Shakerism felt that they had The Answer to a happy life but died out within a century, there is something to be learned from that. If the reclusive, divorce-ourselves-from-the-outside-world communities tended to fade out and disappear (as they did), that might in fact bode badly for the TMO. Clearly, I enjoy tripping on past spiritual movements as well. I am quite taken with the Cathars and their lifestyle, even though their dualist philosophy is 180 degrees opposed to my own. I think one can learn some valuable lessons from how they lived, and what happened to them as a result of living that way. The same is obviously true about early American com- munities. America's whole *myth* revolves around the idea of religious freedom -- a place where you can go and really *act out* your beliefs, no matter how oddball and non-mainstream they are. That was not permitted in Europe, so many came to America hoping to create communities that reflected their beliefs. I guess my only point in jumping in to your posts about the Shakers is that if you're going to learn from history, one of the lessons you shouldn't ignore is whether the spiritual community you're studying is still around. If it isn't -- for what- ever reason -- there is probably as much to be learned from *that* history as there is from a study of what they believed. If the TM movement is still around in a hundred years, historians will be interested in what they believed. If it isn't, they will be interested more in why what they believed didn't work.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: If history has anything to say, If history had anything to say, it wouldn't keep repeating itself. :-) what I think you're feeling in revering Shakerisms is the same thing you try to promote here on FFL, Doug -- a sense of community. Not revering, just observing. Just proactive interest. Not just Shakerisms. Not revering but steeping some little in 18th and 19th Century American spiritual movements and their European and Eastern roots. With all due respect, I think we can safely say that any Eastern roots you see in early American spiritual traditions were projected there. No such influence would have been possible or tolerated. Is a lot of descriptive material available and some that is proscriptive, that can be learned from about life of spiritual movements. The proscriptive insights they give in their own voice can be a useful perspective to how it is going for Transcendental Meditation. That is true. And I think that as much can be learned from the failures of previous spiritual movements as can be learned from their successes. For example, if a community such as Shakerism felt that they had The Answer to a happy life but died out within a century, there is something to be learned from that. If the reclusive, divorce-ourselves-from-the-outside-world communities tended to fade out and disappear (as they did), that might in fact bode badly for the TMO. Clearly, I enjoy tripping on past spiritual movements as well. I am quite taken with the Cathars and their lifestyle, even though their dualist philosophy is 180 degrees opposed to my own. I think one can learn some valuable lessons from how they lived, and what happened to them as a result of living that way. The same is obviously true about early American com- munities. America's whole *myth* revolves around the idea of religious freedom -- a place where you can go and really *act out* your beliefs, no matter how oddball and non-mainstream they are. That was not permitted in Europe, so many came to America hoping to create communities that reflected their beliefs. I guess my only point in jumping in to your posts about the Shakers is that if you're going to learn from history, one of the lessons you shouldn't ignore is whether the spiritual community you're studying is still around. If it isn't -- for what- ever reason -- there is probably as much to be learned from *that* history as there is from a study of what they believed. If the TM movement is still around in a hundred years, historians will be interested in what they believed. If it isn't, they will be interested more in why what they believed didn't work. Yes, Thanks. How it went for the longer lived spiritual practice type of movements, the Transcendentalists, the old Society of Friends, Amana Colonists, Icarians, Shakers, primitivists, universalists. They did a lot of letter-writing, journalizing, diaries, published essays, pamphlet and book writing. From the transcendental spirituality that runs through it comes a lot to look at for perspective. With an elderly Maharishi in decline over in the past many years, I have looked to and sat with for perspective the particular transition periods between spiritual founders, their founding generation and then next generation to see how it went for them. Is a lot of descriptive material available and some which is proscriptive that can be learned from about spiritual movement life-cycle. Transcendental Meditation and the TM-movement evidently is not unique. The TM story is on track and in the middle of something that has gone before, as it goes. Best Regards from FF, -Doug
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: If history has anything to say, If history had anything to say, it wouldn't keep repeating itself. :-) what I think you're feeling in revering Shakerisms is the same thing you try to promote here on FFL, Doug -- a sense of community. Not revering, just observing. Just proactive interest. Not just Shakerisms. Not revering but steeping some little in 18th and 19th Century American spiritual movements and their European and Eastern roots. With all due respect, I think we can safely say that any Eastern roots you see in early American spiritual traditions were projected there. No such influence would have been possible or tolerated. Om by the way. Actually, Jefferson kept a copy of the B. Gita in his library. Emerson, Thoreau, Fuller, Parker delighted in study of the B. Gita in their time. These later referenced and wrote about it and it seems some carried it with them for their own inspiration then. Jai Guru B. Gita? Evidently there were translation copies around and they were passed around some in Colonial through the 19th Century. No, no need to project any hopeful values back on to them. Seems they was there anyway in the mix. JAS, -D in FF Is a lot of descriptive material available and some that is proscriptive, that can be learned from about life of spiritual movements. The proscriptive insights they give in their own voice can be a useful perspective to how it is going for Transcendental Meditation. That is true. And I think that as much can be learned from the failures of previous spiritual movements as can be learned from their successes. For example, if a community such as Shakerism felt that they had The Answer to a happy life but died out within a century, there is something to be learned from that. If the reclusive, divorce-ourselves-from-the-outside-world communities tended to fade out and disappear (as they did), that might in fact bode badly for the TMO. Clearly, I enjoy tripping on past spiritual movements as well. I am quite taken with the Cathars and their lifestyle, even though their dualist philosophy is 180 degrees opposed to my own. I think one can learn some valuable lessons from how they lived, and what happened to them as a result of living that way. The same is obviously true about early American com- munities. America's whole *myth* revolves around the idea of religious freedom -- a place where you can go and really *act out* your beliefs, no matter how oddball and non-mainstream they are. That was not permitted in Europe, so many came to America hoping to create communities that reflected their beliefs. I guess my only point in jumping in to your posts about the Shakers is that if you're going to learn from history, one of the lessons you shouldn't ignore is whether the spiritual community you're studying is still around. If it isn't -- for what- ever reason -- there is probably as much to be learned from *that* history as there is from a study of what they believed. If the TM movement is still around in a hundred years, historians will be interested in what they believed. If it isn't, they will be interested more in why what they believed didn't work.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: If the TM movement is still around in a hundred years, Don't worry, it will. And you will be very dead.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
Probably within the Dome attending community, if people are hearing voices and it is a problem, then they usually get rooted out with/for mental disturbance. Administratively referred to mental health people otherwise. That's the way you'd see it on the ground here in FF. -D That of course is the movement, they would have to handle it that way administratively or they'd get haunted by legal reprisal. So they stay to the `mental health'administrative aspect of a practical necessity. However, on a practical level amongst a practicing and spiritual meditating community, when some folks do get in to astral troubles of too much spiritism, there is local folklore advice that runs towards the adept folks. Some places for those afflicted to go for help of a spiritual nature again bad spiritism: http://www.timeportalpubs.com/ http://youdeservetobeclear.com/index.htm
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
Probably within the Dome attending community, if people are hearing voices and it is a problem, then they usually get rooted out with/for mental disturbance. Administratively referred to mental health people otherwise. That's the way you'd see it on the ground here in FF. -D That of course is the movement, they would have to handle it that way administratively or they'd get haunted by legal reprisal. So they stay to the `mental health'administrative aspect of a practical necessity. However, on a practical level amongst a practicing and spiritual meditating community, when some folks do get in to astral troubles of too much spiritism, there is local folklore advice that runs towards the adept folks. Some places for those afflicted to go for help of a spiritual nature again bad spiritism: http://www.timeportalpubs.com/ http://youdeservetobeclear.com/index.htm This post below could stand to travel with this spiritual discernment thread. paste But we see it here all the time. Maharishi taught *strongly* that after enlightenment the drop merges with the ocean and there is no more relative existence, on any plane. But Bevan and others followed his death almost immediately with claims that Maharishi was in heaven, with all the gods. I'm sure that there are those in the TM movement who believe that they are in communication with him from beyond the grave. To believe this about Maharishi, *you have to ignore what Maharishi actually taught*, or pervert it somehow into what you would prefer to believe. Obviously, many people are good at this, and see nothing wrong with it. I think it's sad. If you revere a spiritual teacher, it makes sense to me that you would want to revere what the dude actually taught, and not change it to suit yourself. If i remember, it wasn't Bevan so much, as King Tony and then Konhaus who reverted to that old testament kind of theologic folklore construction. King Tony only really did it once in his first public attempt at expressing a condolence after Maharishi died. Figure it was a very tough time for those around in the middle, so it was a slip. Konhaus then did it more directly as pronouncement in his climbing usurping sort of way. Both their utterances are back in the FFL archive. They were singular moments. As they did it, then it briefly gave an inside moment where people started to claim they were hearing from Maharishi. If anything, Bevan probably boxed their collective ears for such stupidity in the moment. So officially you really never hear much from the official movement the construction that Maharishi lives guides in dis-embodied spirit.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
Every once in a while someone turns up who *was there*. Like,there from Squaw Valley. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Oct 29, 2009, at 3:31 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: But we see it here all the time. Maharishi taught *strongly* any channelers you know of in FF offering MMY post mortem akashic services? An even more relevant question, given my original topic and the Subject heading, is why sidhas would be messing with a practice (channeling) that Maharishi could not possibly have been more emphatic in condemning? From Squaw Valley onwards, during the entire time I spent in the TMO, I never heard him do anything but warn people away from this practice, and *strongly*. If TMers are channeling dead things, chalk that up as one more example of what I'm talking about, redefining a teacher's teachings to suit yourself.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
Or the self-help home study plan: In addition to the SBS Guru Dev comments about trading a diamond for a lump of spinach, what Maharishi did say practically was to simply meditate, be with the mantra, when bothered by these kind of outside influences. However, on a practical level amongst a practicing and spiritual meditating community, when some folks do get in to astral troubles of too much spiritism, there is local folklore advice that runs towards the adept folks. Some places for those afflicted to go for help of a spiritual nature again bad spiritism: http://www.timeportalpubs.com/ http://youdeservetobeclear.com/index.htm Probably within the Dome attending community, if people are hearing voices and it is a problem, then they usually get rooted out with/for mental disturbance. Administratively referred to mental health people otherwise. That's the way you'd see it on the ground here in FF. -D That of course is the movement, they would have to handle it that way administratively or they'd get haunted by legal reprisal. So they stay to the `mental health'administrative aspect of a practical necessity. However, on a practical level amongst a practicing and spiritual meditating community, when some folks do get in to astral troubles of too much spiritism, there is local folklore advice that runs towards the adept folks. Some places for those afflicted to go for help of a spiritual nature again bad spiritism: http://www.timeportalpubs.com/ http://youdeservetobeclear.com/index.htm
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sandiego108 sandiego108@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: A good point, and hopefully a springboard to an interesting thread. I have always been nothing short of *amazed* at the number of TMers who get involved with channeling and spirit voices and communicating with higher masters and the like, given the STRONG stance Maharishi took against these practices from Day One. snip As I experienced it was nothing like facile interactions with an ouija board or channeling or spirits or crap like that. it just happens. one day its not there and the next day it is. just like tm provides awareness of the full range of creation, as that process becomes clearer and clearer, new things are discovered. it is not at the gross level that you suggest at all, yet concrete, distinct, and of immense benefit. after some time, when the relationship has run its course, it can be let go of too. no contradiction to what Mahahrishi spoke about. The distinction being made by the teacher I quoted earlier, and in fact by Maharishi back in the late Sixties when he was telling everyone never to get involved with *anything* that talks to you is one of CONTENT. I think that both teachers would find nothing wrong with having an indistinct feeling of the presence or personality with someone one feels an affinity for. HOWEVER, both teachers made a clear distinction between that and the entity with which one has this feeling actually TELLING you things. If there is any kind of *information* being conveyed, then the voice is NOT TO BE TRUSTED. I have found this same teaching in quite a few spir- itual traditions, all of whom make this same distinc- tion. If you hear voices, if you have visions in which someone or something is telling you what to do or what to convince others to do, you may be in fairly serious trouble. Think of it this way -- you suddenly find yourself dropped into a completely different city. You don't know anyone you meet, or what their intentions are. You don't even know WHERE you are, or where these beings you see come from. And then one of them walks up to you and starts talking to you and telling you things that you should do in your life to make it better, or to make the lives of others better. Would you believe them? Would you do what this abso- lute stranger tells you to do? If so, then channeling and having conversations with disembodied voices is for you. :-) It's the same thing. These are just voices that these people have encountered while cruising the astral planes. The voices may TELL these folks who are talking to them who or what they are, but is that who they really are. In Tibetan lore, many of them are shape- shifters, so they may even *appear* to look like or sound like someone you know. They may even LIE, because a lot of the disembodied beings are not happy campers, and live to fuck with those who still have bodies. So these traditions -- and Maharishi himself back in the early days of his teaching -- all said the same thing: DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THEM. Don't believe anything they tell you, and certainly don't live your life based upon what they tell you. Because you DON'T know who or what you are dealing with. You know only what they appear to be, or what they have told you they are. 'Nuff said. I find 'Old Trees' give the best advice... They are especially knowledgeable in the area of patience... r.j.g.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
Going back in this particular thread, is a strong predeliction against it within TM. This was touched on in this previous thread. There is a teaching this way in the TM community. Going back to Guru Dev's. The warnings against the astral circus in that `trading a diamond for a lump of spinach' quote. Patanjali too. Then there are the culturally weak minded (OTP) TM'ers who dabble off and go astray. Has always gone on in ways. For the TM-movement and a teaching, it is like herding cats. Perennial warnings. Before it was Maharishi who taught against it. Now will be noteworthy to see who has the stuff to speak against it with perspective. Or, will it just be a doctrinal response? He said Guru Dev, Patanjali said, Shankara said, Maharishi said, `Capture the fort ' Probably within the Dome attending community, if people are hearing voices and it is a problem, then they usually get rooted out with/for mental disturbance. Administratively referred to mental health people otherwise. That's the way you'd see it on the ground here in FF. -D That of course is the movement, they would have to handle it that way administratively or they'd get haunted by legal reprisal. So they stay to the `mental health'administrative aspect of a practical necessity.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A good point, and hopefully a springboard to an interesting thread. I have always been nothing short of *amazed* at the number of TMers who get involved with channeling and spirit voices and communicating with higher masters and the like, given the STRONG stance Maharishi took against these practices from Day One. What will be interesting in the wake of his death is whether there will be some revisionist history on these practices as people start claiming to be getting messages directly from Haharishi. The he's talking to me thang is *going* to happen; that's a given. The question is how it's going to be handled by the larger TMO, or what is left of it. Will it be handled in the same way that Maharishi's equally strong teaching about the enlightened being not even having the *option* of reincarnation on any relative plane, and now the teaching being spread around by Bevan and King Tony that Maharishi himself is in heaven, where even the gods are amazed by him? Or will someone remember the original teachings and point them out, and suggest that the Wannabe Emperor's New Voices might not be coming from the source they think they're coming from? Interesting point, the cat might be out of the bag. Or is that the 'genie out of the lamp' as you mention with Tony example and also these recent 'eperience' posts about Maharishi from the dead (or the road to Damascus). Proly now to be a really good apostle you should need to be hearing from Maharishi right about now, before the pile on gets too thick. Will make for some great TMmovement theatre if not else. Jai Guru Dev, -Doug in FF As someone said recently, the jury is still out on this one. I post, for the amusement of those who have always thought that Maharishi's original take on listening to voices was correct, and as edifi- cation for those who think he was wrong, a teaching that showed up yesterday on another board in response to someone saying that her voices were telling her something and that everyone else should pay attention to it as the revealed message it really was: When you hear a voice or have a thought to do or think something in particular; once in a while do the exact opposite and then observe if the voice or 'thought' gets angry at you. That's how you can tell that you are being manipulated by something or someone outside of yourself. The woman this advice was given to got hysterically angry and claimed at the top of her all-caps screen voice that everyone else, including her own teacher who had said these words, was WRONG, and that her voices were correct. Most of the rest of us considered the case closed. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Your quote from Patanjali is irrelevant in this context. The quote is evidently relevant only in that it is a strong comment and warning, from scripture. Interesting distinction you make though about this willing and unwilling possession. Are you experienced in the sense that you practice it? Thinking back on earlier TMmovement days we didn't have much directly from Guru Dev in the way of quotes and readings. Maharishi told stories about Guru Dev. The one thing that was given out though was a quote from Guru Dev on this subject of spiritism. It was sort of foundational material for ruddering the TMmovement in straight and narrow spiritual practice. That... dabbling in spirits could be dangerous Maharishi was always firm in consul and coaching about this. This quote was a printed one sheet paper that was very available around teacher trainings and on ATR courses: paste Guru Dev: Speaking on the Value of a Human Birth and the Importance of Right Action Do good works without hesitation. The Jiva has been experiencing samsara for many, many births. It is only natural, therefore, that its tendencies have become worldly. To turn its tendencies toward Paramatman and away from samsara requires some effort. In reality, the aim of life is to stop the mind from involvement with this world. If one engages in spiritual practice and in thinking and speaking about God, the mind will start dwelling on Him and after some time it will withdraw from the world on its own. In our daily affairs we should adopt a strategy of quickly attending to good works and things related to the Divine. Should any wrong thought arise, on the other hand, we should try to postpone it to another time by saying, I'll do it tomorrow, or the day after next. In this way, wrong action can be continuously postponed. To be born a human is more fortunate than to be born a deva (angel or Divine being). Taking birth as a deva is considered comparable to taking birth as any other life form. Birth as a deva is
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
I have a long-time (30 + years) friend who channels a being and I have had occasion to observe them very closely. I use the plural pronoun to hide their sex and to indicate the two of them, the human and the channeled being, together. They make a truly excellent living at it because they are able to convince large numbers of folks of the reality and the truth of their healing power--which is real enough for the people who benefit. The placebo effect is powerful and, in a sense, why not harness it in any way we can? I could be dead wrong, of course, and have been dead wrong about countless things, but in my opinion what is going on here is 1) embryonic witnessing misused or gone awry 2) very large (and exceedingly fragile) ego invested in keeping things as they are 3) Huge control-freak type personality that is constantly fed by the true believers that buy their services 3) by this time, there's no way out since their living depends on keeping up the charade 4) there's no way out because the thing has become the reality in a sense, but a total break-down wouldn't surprise me Theirs is an extremely lonely life since no one can be allowed to get close enough to them to see through the charade. --- dhamiltony2k5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A good point, and hopefully a springboard to an interesting thread. I have always been nothing short of *amazed* at the number of TMers who get involved with channeling and spirit voices and communicating with higher masters and the like, given the STRONG stance Maharishi took against these practices from Day One. What will be interesting in the wake of his death is whether there will be some revisionist history on these practices as people start claiming to be getting messages directly from Haharishi. The he's talking to me thang is *going* to happen; that's a given. The question is how it's going to be handled by the larger TMO, or what is left of it. Will it be handled in the same way that Maharishi's equally strong teaching about the enlightened being not even having the *option* of reincarnation on any relative plane, and now the teaching being spread around by Bevan and King Tony that Maharishi himself is in heaven, where even the gods are amazed by him? Or will someone remember the original teachings and point them out, and suggest that the Wannabe Emperor's New Voices might not be coming from the source they think they're coming from? Interesting point, the cat might be out of the bag. Or is that the 'genie out of the lamp' as you mention with Tony example and also these recent 'eperience' posts about Maharishi from the dead (or the road to Damascus). Proly now to be a really good apostle you should need to be hearing from Maharishi right about now, before the pile on gets too thick. Will make for some great TMmovement theatre if not else. Jai Guru Dev, -Doug in FF As someone said recently, the jury is still out on this one. I post, for the amusement of those who have always thought that Maharishi's original take on listening to voices was correct, and as edifi- cation for those who think he was wrong, a teaching that showed up yesterday on another board in response to someone saying that her voices were telling her something and that everyone else should pay attention to it as the revealed message it really was: When you hear a voice or have a thought to do or think something in particular; once in a while do the exact opposite and then observe if the voice or 'thought' gets angry at you. That's how you can tell that you are being manipulated by something or someone outside of yourself. The woman this advice was given to got hysterically angry and claimed at the top of her all-caps screen voice that everyone else, including her own teacher who had said these words, was WRONG, and that her voices were correct. Most of the rest of us considered the case closed. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Your quote from Patanjali is irrelevant in this context. The quote is evidently relevant only in that it is a strong comment and warning, from scripture. Interesting distinction you make though about this willing and unwilling possession. Are you experienced in the sense that you practice it? Thinking back on earlier TMmovement days we didn't have much directly from Guru Dev in the way of quotes and readings. Maharishi told stories about Guru Dev. The one thing that was given out though was a quote from Guru Dev on this subject of spiritism. It was sort of foundational material for ruddering the TMmovement in straight and narrow spiritual practice. That... dabbling in spirits
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
I too have had the experience of being visited by deceased friends and family while asleep. It has happened in what seemed like a dream, but more often it happens when I am sleeping but not dreaming (or at least I am not dreaming as I do normally night after night). None have spoken to me, but a few times I came away with an understanding of something the visiting soul wanted me to know. For example, my grandmother came several times one night in such a fashion that I twice woke up startled. Soon I realized that there was a book I was reading on death and the afterlife that she wanted me to give to my mother who (unknown to me) was soon to cross over. I gave $1,000 to a desparate friend who promised that if he didn't repay the money, he'd come live with me so I could help him. He broke the promise and died soon after from a drug overdose. Later at my wedding, a casual friend I was not close to gave me $1,000, which was a crazy-generous gift. Right after that my dead friend appeared while I was sleeping, and I knew that he was communicating that this was from his influence. Upon waking, I realized that he and I were even. There is a quality to these experiences that is decidedly different than dreaming. Frank --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, matrixmonitor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ---I'm not so sure. Once, my deceased Mother appeared to me in the dream state saying that in the near future there would be an ant invasion in my apt. Sure enough, 2 weeks later there was an ant invasion, but I nipped it in the bud. Good information! In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sandiego108 sandiego108@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: A good point, and hopefully a springboard to an interesting thread. I have always been nothing short of *amazed* at the number of TMers who get involved with channeling and spirit voices and communicating with higher masters and the like, given the STRONG stance Maharishi took against these practices from Day One. snip As I experienced it was nothing like facile interactions with an ouija board or channeling or spirits or crap like that. it just happens. one day its not there and the next day it is. just like tm provides awareness of the full range of creation, as that process becomes clearer and clearer, new things are discovered. it is not at the gross level that you suggest at all, yet concrete, distinct, and of immense benefit. after some time, when the relationship has run its course, it can be let go of too. no contradiction to what Mahahrishi spoke about.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
On Mar 6, 2008, at 3:06 PM, Frank McLaughlin wrote: None have spoken to me, but a few times I came away with an understanding of something the visiting soul wanted me to know. Frank, you could make $$ on this! That's major for you, right? Someone tried selling One Human Soul on Ebay, in a bottle. (They'll sell anything these days.) Don't recall now if he was able to get away with it or not before they yanked it. That would be one way for your friend to repay the dough. :) Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
A good point, and hopefully a springboard to an interesting thread. I have always been nothing short of *amazed* at the number of TMers who get involved with channeling and spirit voices and communicating with higher masters and the like, given the STRONG stance Maharishi took against these practices from Day One. What will be interesting in the wake of his death is whether there will be some revisionist history on these practices as people start claiming to be getting messages directly from Haharishi. The he's talking to me thang is *going* to happen; that's a given. The question is how it's going to be handled by the larger TMO, or what is left of it. Will it be handled in the same way that Maharishi's equally strong teaching about the enlightened being not even having the *option* of reincarnation on any relative plane, and now the teaching being spread around by Bevan and King Tony that Maharishi himself is in heaven, where even the gods are amazed by him? Or will someone remember the original teachings and point them out, and suggest that the Wannabe Emperor's New Voices might not be coming from the source they think they're coming from? As someone said recently, the jury is still out on this one. I post, for the amusement of those who have always thought that Maharishi's original take on listening to voices was correct, and as edifi- cation for those who think he was wrong, a teaching that showed up yesterday on another board in response to someone saying that her voices were telling her something and that everyone else should pay attention to it as the revealed message it really was: When you hear a voice or have a thought to do or think something in particular; once in a while do the exact opposite and then observe if the voice or 'thought' gets angry at you. That's how you can tell that you are being manipulated by something or someone outside of yourself. The woman this advice was given to got hysterically angry and claimed at the top of her all-caps screen voice that everyone else, including her own teacher who had said these words, was WRONG, and that her voices were correct. Most of the rest of us considered the case closed. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your quote from Patanjali is irrelevant in this context. The quote is evidently relevant only in that it is a strong comment and warning, from scripture. Interesting distinction you make though about this willing and unwilling possession. Are you experienced in the sense that you practice it? Thinking back on earlier TMmovement days we didn't have much directly from Guru Dev in the way of quotes and readings. Maharishi told stories about Guru Dev. The one thing that was given out though was a quote from Guru Dev on this subject of spiritism. It was sort of foundational material for ruddering the TMmovement in straight and narrow spiritual practice. That... dabbling in spirits could be dangerous Maharishi was always firm in consul and coaching about this. This quote was a printed one sheet paper that was very available around teacher trainings and on ATR courses: paste Guru Dev: Speaking on the Value of a Human Birth and the Importance of Right Action Do good works without hesitation. The Jiva has been experiencing samsara for many, many births. It is only natural, therefore, that its tendencies have become worldly. To turn its tendencies toward Paramatman and away from samsara requires some effort. In reality, the aim of life is to stop the mind from involvement with this world. If one engages in spiritual practice and in thinking and speaking about God, the mind will start dwelling on Him and after some time it will withdraw from the world on its own. In our daily affairs we should adopt a strategy of quickly attending to good works and things related to the Divine. Should any wrong thought arise, on the other hand, we should try to postpone it to another time by saying, I'll do it tomorrow, or the day after next. In this way, wrong action can be continuously postponed. To be born a human is more fortunate than to be born a deva (angel or Divine being). Taking birth as a deva is considered comparable to taking birth as any other life form. Birth as a deva is attained by those who perform certain sacrifices and karma, etc. associated with divinity, with the intention to enjoy divine pleasures. The minds of the devas wander incessantly because of the abundance of enjoyable things in the heavenly realms, and hence they cannot perform purushartha (Divine action - action in accord with the cosmic evolution and individual destiny). For this reason, the human birth is considered superior, because here, by doing as much purushartha as possible, one can eventually merge with God. A human being is like a lump of pure gold, whereas devas are like pieces of fine jewelry. Having
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A good point, and hopefully a springboard to an interesting thread. I have always been nothing short of *amazed* at the number of TMers who get involved with channeling and spirit voices and communicating with higher masters and the like, given the STRONG stance Maharishi took against these practices from Day One. snip As I experienced it was nothing like facile interactions with an ouija board or channeling or spirits or crap like that. it just happens. one day its not there and the next day it is. just like tm provides awareness of the full range of creation, as that process becomes clearer and clearer, new things are discovered. it is not at the gross level that you suggest at all, yet concrete, distinct, and of immense benefit. after some time, when the relationship has run its course, it can be let go of too. no contradiction to what Mahahrishi spoke about.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sandiego108 sandiego108@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: A good point, and hopefully a springboard to an interesting thread. I have always been nothing short of *amazed* at the number of TMers who get involved with channeling and spirit voices and communicating with higher masters and the like, given the STRONG stance Maharishi took against these practices from Day One. snip As I experienced it was nothing like facile interactions with an ouija board or channeling or spirits or crap like that. it just happens. one day its not there and the next day it is. just like tm provides awareness of the full range of creation, as that process becomes clearer and clearer, new things are discovered. it is not at the gross level that you suggest at all, yet concrete, distinct, and of immense benefit. after some time, when the relationship has run its course, it can be let go of too. no contradiction to what Mahahrishi spoke about. The distinction being made by the teacher I quoted earlier, and in fact by Maharishi back in the late Sixties when he was telling everyone never to get involved with *anything* that talks to you is one of CONTENT. I think that both teachers would find nothing wrong with having an indistinct feeling of the presence or personality with someone one feels an affinity for. HOWEVER, both teachers made a clear distinction between that and the entity with which one has this feeling actually TELLING you things. If there is any kind of *information* being conveyed, then the voice is NOT TO BE TRUSTED. I have found this same teaching in quite a few spir- itual traditions, all of whom make this same distinc- tion. If you hear voices, if you have visions in which someone or something is telling you what to do or what to convince others to do, you may be in fairly serious trouble. Think of it this way -- you suddenly find yourself dropped into a completely different city. You don't know anyone you meet, or what their intentions are. You don't even know WHERE you are, or where these beings you see come from. And then one of them walks up to you and starts talking to you and telling you things that you should do in your life to make it better, or to make the lives of others better. Would you believe them? Would you do what this abso- lute stranger tells you to do? If so, then channeling and having conversations with disembodied voices is for you. :-) It's the same thing. These are just voices that these people have encountered while cruising the astral planes. The voices may TELL these folks who are talking to them who or what they are, but is that who they really are. In Tibetan lore, many of them are shape- shifters, so they may even *appear* to look like or sound like someone you know. They may even LIE, because a lot of the disembodied beings are not happy campers, and live to fuck with those who still have bodies. So these traditions -- and Maharishi himself back in the early days of his teaching -- all said the same thing: DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THEM. Don't believe anything they tell you, and certainly don't live your life based upon what they tell you. Because you DON'T know who or what you are dealing with. You know only what they appear to be, or what they have told you they are. 'Nuff said. I see what you mean-- I missed your earlier post-- Yep, I completely agree-- sounds creepy anyway. I have had visions fwiw but no direct speech-- more like vibrational attunement, if that makes sense.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, matrixmonitor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ---I'm not so sure. Once, my deceased Mother appeared to me in the dream state saying that in the near future there would be an ant invasion in my apt. Sure enough, 2 weeks later there was an ant invasion, but I nipped it in the bud. Good information! too cool! I have seen my deceased brother in the dream state as well-- very real and knew he was OK. Can also pick up the status of deceased relatives soon after they have passed away, but can't find them anymore after a few months or years.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
---Thx. A few times I've projected my mind into the minds of deceased people seeking to find out what they were fixated upon. Once, I perceived a thought bubble my deceased Bro. was creating in which he was witnessing a drag racing event (that was his foremost interest in life). Then, recently, I perceived a thought bubble of Charlie Lutes. It seemed he was running on automatic, sinking into a former memory that he was recycling as if a broken record: (he was lecturing at Manly P. Hall's Philosophical Research center in Hollywood - something he evidently enjoyed a lot). In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sandiego108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, matrixmonitor matrixmonitor@ wrote: ---I'm not so sure. Once, my deceased Mother appeared to me in the dream state saying that in the near future there would be an ant invasion in my apt. Sure enough, 2 weeks later there was an ant invasion, but I nipped it in the bud. Good information! too cool! I have seen my deceased brother in the dream state as well-- very real and knew he was OK. Can also pick up the status of deceased relatives soon after they have passed away, but can't find them anymore after a few months or years.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, matrixmonitor matrixmonitor@ wrote: ---I'm not so sure. Once, my deceased Mother appeared to me in the dream state saying that in the near future there would be an ant invasion in my apt. Sure enough, 2 weeks later there was an ant invasion, but I nipped it in the bud. Good information! For the record, the same teacher gave different advice for dreams. I have been speaking about visions and hearing voices in the waking state. The advice had to do with him or any spiritual teacher with whom the students might have an affinity. If *they* seemed to appear to the student in dreams, his advice was to try to be aware of how you *feel* the moment you wake up. If you feel heavy, as if the teacher has been ragging on you and telling you something profound but a downer, in his opinion it wasn't the teacher but someone/something impersonating him. On the other hand, if you laugh a lot in the dream plane and wake up feeling bright and alert and still happy, it might very well be. I know this may not be applicable, but I'm passing it along in case it might be to anyone else. This advice never steered me wrong. snip Yep-- I was going to mention something about this earlier, but you nailed it-- the *feeling* of the experience is so key.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual vs Spiritism
Your quote from Patanjali is irrelevant in this context. The quote is evidently relevant only in that it is a strong comment and warning, from scripture. Interesting distinction you make though about this willing and unwilling possession. Are you experienced in the sense that you practice it? Thinking back on earlier TMmovement days we didn't have much directly from Guru Dev in the way of quotes and readings. Maharishi told stories about Guru Dev. The one thing that was given out though was a quote from Guru Dev on this subject of spiritism. It was sort of foundational material for ruddering the TMmovement in straight and narrow spiritual practice. That... dabbling in spirits could be dangerous Maharishi was always firm in consul and coaching about this. This quote was a printed one sheet paper that was very available around teacher trainings and on ATR courses: paste Guru Dev: Speaking on the Value of a Human Birth and the Importance of Right Action Do good works without hesitation. The Jiva has been experiencing samsara for many, many births. It is only natural, therefore, that its tendencies have become worldly. To turn its tendencies toward Paramatman and away from samsara requires some effort. In reality, the aim of life is to stop the mind from involvement with this world. If one engages in spiritual practice and in thinking and speaking about God, the mind will start dwelling on Him and after some time it will withdraw from the world on its own. In our daily affairs we should adopt a strategy of quickly attending to good works and things related to the Divine. Should any wrong thought arise, on the other hand, we should try to postpone it to another time by saying, I'll do it tomorrow, or the day after next. In this way, wrong action can be continuously postponed. To be born a human is more fortunate than to be born a deva (angel or Divine being). Taking birth as a deva is considered comparable to taking birth as any other life form. Birth as a deva is attained by those who perform certain sacrifices and karma, etc. associated with divinity, with the intention to enjoy divine pleasures. The minds of the devas wander incessantly because of the abundance of enjoyable things in the heavenly realms, and hence they cannot perform purushartha (Divine action - action in accord with the cosmic evolution and individual destiny). For this reason, the human birth is considered superior, because here, by doing as much purushartha as possible, one can eventually merge with God. A human being is like a lump of pure gold, whereas devas are like pieces of fine jewelry. Having been perfected as jewelry, their progress is complete, and they cannot be further improved. On the other hand, gold which has not yet been crafted by the jeweler, has unlimited potential. Hence the birth of a human being is said to be the very best birth for action. Having attained this birth, one should not act carelessly, but should conscientiously perform the best purushartha. Fulfilling one's own dharma while keeping faith in Paramatman is the greatest purushartha. Strive to become one with God in this lifetime. Have firm faith in the Vedas and Shastras (Vedic scripture) and keep the company of saints, mahatmas and wise people. Only then will the purpose of your life be fulfilled. To get a human body is a rare thingmake full use of it. There are four million kinds of births which a soul can gather. After that one gets a human body. Therefore, one should not waste this opportunity. Every second in human life is very valuable. If you don't value this, then you will have nothing in hand and you will weep in the end. Because you're human, God has given you power to think and decide what is good and bad. Therefore, you can do the best possible kind of action. You should never consider yourself weak or a fallen creature. Whatever may have happened up to now may be because you didn't know. But now be careful. After gaining a human body, if you don't reach God, then you have sold a diamond at the price of spinach. http://www.srigurudev.net/srigurudev/gurudev/discourses.html dhamiltony2k5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the difference? Are they different on a continum or entirely different? This overshadowing or 'channeling'. Invoking disembodied beings one way or another, just different frequencies of praying or communication? Just wondering. -Doug in FF nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: His Master is a yogi of high caliber, and may or may not be disembodied. It is entirely different as it does not go against the free will of the subject in any way. dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Interesting distinction, betwx willing and unwilling communication, with the dis-incarnate? Willing and unwilling? Is there a point where over-shadowing can become, 'possession'? Is that your
