[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Oct 10, 2005, at 1:04 PM, anonymousff wrote: FWIW, in numerous lectures at the first Mallorca TTC, Jan-June, 1971, Maharishi told us (many times) that we should get rid of as many bad habits as possible before CC because they wouldn't go away just because we were enlightened. He said clearly we take our bad habits with us. This speaks volumes to me now, close to 35 years later, when we are all (or at least many) finally realizing that appearing to be saintly-whether strictly the *look* of saintliness, the pretty words of enlightenment from a real saint or a poseur-may be nothing but the Emperor's new new clothes. Interesting point. It's different though as we approach Unity and the extinction of all phenomenon. There's actually a yogic saying on this which states Ascend with Conduct, Descend with the View. In other words, as your consciousness begins to assume the POV of Unity and begins to exhaust all it's karma, one's conduct--in terms of the karmic imprints one makes and the quality of ones actions--must be exemplary--so the conduct must rise. If you can do that, you will exhaust all karmic potentials. I once believed that but I no longer do. To me all the whole sheband now means is that whoever you are, however you act, as you become increasingly free from the binding influence of action, you become increasingly free from the binding influence of action. How that plays out is totally individual and all else is mere moodmaking about the state. How many TMers adopted a lifestyle commensurate with higher states of consciousness only to have the whole thing backfire on them? Some seem to naturally beome nicer people that is until someone cuts them off while driving, or when they bang their thumb with a hammer. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj snip I once believed that but I no longer do. To me all the whole sheband now means is that whoever you are, however you act, as you become increasingly free from the binding influence of action, you become increasingly free from the binding influence of action. How that plays out is totally individual and all else is mere moodmaking about the state. Nicely put. Any concept of enlightened behavior is more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary of the individual than some assessment of enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term enlightened behavior is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just behavior, period. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
On 10/10/05 3:28 PM, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting point. It's different though as we approach Unity and the extinction of all phenomenon. There's actually a yogic saying on this which states Ascend with Conduct, Descend with the View. In other words, as your consciousness begins to assume the POV of Unity and begins to exhaust all it's karma, one's conduct--in terms of the karmic imprints one makes and the quality of ones actions--must be exemplary--so the conduct must rise. If you can do that, you will exhaust all karmic potentials. I once believed that but I no longer do. To me all the whole sheband now means is that whoever you are, however you act, as you become increasingly free from the binding influence of action, you become increasingly free from the binding influence of action. How that plays out is totally individual and all else is mere moodmaking about the state. How many TMers adopted a lifestyle commensurate with higher states of consciousness only to have the whole thing backfire on them? Some seem to naturally beome nicer people that is until someone cuts them off while driving, or when they bang their thumb with a hammer. The fine points here are quality and exemplary--as if one has acquired the state of Unity and can carry it in all actions then one can perform any action. However there is such a thing as ³losing the Action in the View². Not all spontaneity is enlightened spontaneity. Life is in the details--as a tantric Buddha once said Though my View is as spacious as the sky, my actions and respect for cause and effect are as fine as grains of flour. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
On Oct 10, 2005, at 4:06 PM, Peter wrote: Nicely put. Any concept of enlightened behavior is more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary of the individual than some assessment of enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term enlightened behavior is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just behavior, period. Yeah, all those buddhafields are just there for decoration! -- Things are not as they seem, nor are they otherwise --a Buddhist Sutra Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- snip -- Nicely put. Any concept of enlightened behavior is more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary of the individual than some assessment of enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term enlightened behavior is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just behavior, period. In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three gunas, enlightened people act under the influence of sattva. Given the press conference of lately I would venture a guess that one is always true but that two is a matter of choice - and then perhaps what the times require to promote the smoothest evolution possible for the cosmically assigned area of responsibility (the World, in MMY's case). History has previously recorded enlightened people acting in manners that in effect made their physical bodies the focal point for collective bad karma. The Ultimate Sacrifice, I believe it's called when people who are not Self-realized passes through this particular experience. What is it called for someone who is enlightened, when a ripple aware of it's status as the Ocean levels out and in the process performs a yagya that resounds for millenia to come? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, peterklutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- snip -- Nicely put. Any concept of enlightened behavior is more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary of the individual than some assessment of enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term enlightened behavior is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just behavior, period. In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three gunas, enlightened people act under the influence of sattva. Given the press conference of lately I would venture a guess that one is always true but that two is a matter of choice - and then perhaps what the times require to promote the smoothest evolution possible for the cosmically assigned area of responsibility (the World, in MMY's case). History has previously recorded enlightened people acting in manners that in effect made their physical bodies the focal point for collective bad karma. The Ultimate Sacrifice, I believe it's called when people who are not Self-realized passes through this particular experience. What is it called for someone who is enlightened, when a ripple aware of it's status as the Ocean levels out and in the process performs a yagya that resounds for millenia to come? After years of listening and taking in all of the varying explanations for varieities of understandings and behaviors I don't really believe that anyone, Maharishi inlcuded, really knows what they are talking about. He, like the rest of us, grew up with a worldview, was steeped in one far diffeerent than the rest of us, and then came forth to bring his worldview into ours. Like most business-entrprenreneur types he could have been successful or not and he made the best use of his contacts and particuarly the era of the late 60s without which, we may still be practicing (to my delight) TM for 20 minutes twice per day instead of the no change in lifestyle or belief total change in lifestyle and belief being propagated. Who is to say from the outside what actions are for the benefit of individuals or the whole of mankind. We certainly have our generationally conditioned beliefs that seem pretty deeply ingrained in universal collective consciousness. However, in the overall span of time, our era is but a small blip on the screen and I am no longer willing to give someone such as Maharishi the benefit of the doubt. At this point I can listen and discern for myself and my life of experience whether someone's actions/teachings are just another plug for a self-serving self-aggrandizing technique-system-fundraising scheme, etc. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- peterklutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- snip -- Nicely put. Any concept of enlightened behavior is more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary of the individual than some assessment of enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term enlightened behavior is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just behavior, period. In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three gunas, enlightened people act under the influence of sattva. Given the press conference of lately I would venture a guess that one is always true but that two is a matter of choice - and then perhaps what the times require to promote the smoothest evolution possible for the cosmically assigned area of responsibility (the World, in MMY's case). History has previously recorded enlightened people acting in manners that in effect made their physical bodies the focal point for collective bad karma. The Ultimate Sacrifice, I believe it's called when people who are not Self-realized passes through this particular experience. What is it called for someone who is enlightened, when a ripple aware of it's status as the Ocean levels out and in the process performs a yagya that resounds for millenia to come? I think you are attributing qualities and abilities to the enlightened that just aren't there. It's more a projection of the God archetype than anything else. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, peterklutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- snip -- Nicely put. Any concept of enlightened behavior is more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary of the individual than some assessment of enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term enlightened behavior is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just behavior, period. In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three gunas, enlightened people act under the influence of sattva. Even more key, it seems to me, is Krishna's assertion, Unfathomable is the course of action. If it's the case that we cannot know all the ramifications of someone's behavior, as the assertion implies, then we can't know whether a given behavior does or does not promote evolution, which means we cannot use behavior as a criterion of enlightenment. For any act, even if it appears to be thoroughly evil, it's possible to imagine a scenario in which the act has evolution-promoting consequences, even if they may come to fruition way down the line (and vice-versa, of course, for an apparently good action). This does NOT mean that we should unquestioningly accept the behavior of someone we assume is enlightened in the belief that it ultimately has to have evolutionary consequences--because we have no way of knowing for sure if the person *is* enlightened. So Unfathomable is the course of action cuts both ways: we can't tell from behavior whether someone is enlightened, and because we can't tell, we can't assume the behavior is ultimately going to have evolutionary consequences. In other words, assuming someone is enlightened makes absolutely zero difference to how we should regard his/her actions. We can only evaluate his/her behavior the same way we evaluate anybody else's. We can, however, keep in the back of the mind the recognition that we *could* be wrong in our evaluation. We just have no way of knowing. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, peterklutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- snip -- Nicely put. Any concept of enlightened behavior is more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary of the individual than some assessment of enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term enlightened behavior is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just behavior, period. In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three gunas, enlightened people act under the influence of sattva. Even more key, it seems to me, is Krishna's assertion, Unfathomable is the course of action. BIG SNIP We can, however, keep in the back of the mind the recognition that we *could* be wrong in our evaluation. We just have no way of knowing. Nicely put Judy, I meant to bring up this verse in one of my posts on this topic. Is it chapter 4, verse 17 or verse 38? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, peterklutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- snip -- Nicely put. Any concept of enlightened behavior is more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary of the individual than some assessment of enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term enlightened behavior is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just behavior, period. In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three gunas, enlightened people act under the influence of sattva. Even more key, it seems to me, is Krishna's assertion, Unfathomable is the course of action. If it's the case that we cannot know all the ramifications of someone's behavior, as the assertion implies, then we can't know whether a given behavior does or does not promote evolution, which means we cannot use behavior as a criterion of enlightenment. For any act, even if it appears to be thoroughly evil, it's possible to imagine a scenario in which the act has evolution-promoting consequences, even if they may come to fruition way down the line (and vice-versa, of course, for an apparently good action). This does NOT mean that we should unquestioningly accept the behavior of someone we assume is enlightened in the belief that it ultimately has to have evolutionary consequences--because we have no way of knowing for sure if the person *is* enlightened. So Unfathomable is the course of action cuts both ways: we can't tell from behavior whether someone is enlightened, and because we can't tell, we can't assume the behavior is ultimately going to have evolutionary consequences. In other words, assuming someone is enlightened makes absolutely zero difference to how we should regard his/her actions. We can only evaluate his/her behavior the same way we evaluate anybody else's. We can, however, keep in the back of the mind the recognition that we *could* be wrong in our evaluation. We just have no way of knowing. Right on Judy, you know sometimes, in spite of all those thoughts running around in your head at random, you hit the nail right on the head, (but then a broken clock is right twice a day too). Gaday! Yu no whooo, (b!) halloween's coming where's Delia? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Even more key, it seems to me, is Krishna's assertion, Unfathomable is the course of action. BIG SNIP We can, however, keep in the back of the mind the recognition that we *could* be wrong in our evaluation. We just have no way of knowing. Nicely put Judy, I meant to bring up this verse in one of my posts on this topic. Is it chapter 4, verse 17 or verse 38? 4:17-- Action, indeed, should be understood, wrong action should also be understood, and inaction should be understood as well. Unfathomable is the course of action. MMY comments, in part: The Lord has said that knowledge of action is necessary and yet, the course of action being unfathomable, knowledge of it must remain incomplete. He therefore brings to light a techique by which the effects of knowledge will be gained without the necessity for gaining the knowledgeWhat is important is the effect, not the knowledge. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
Peter: Any concept of enlightened behavior is more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary of the individual than some assessment of enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term enlightened behavior is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just behavior, period. - Akasha: Enlightened behavior implies perfect behavior. But its not dichotomous: uneveloved behavior vs. perfect behavior. There is a huge spectrum of possible improved behaviors releative to ones own starting point. The third benefit of Intro lectures is (was) improved social behavior. It does not imply perfect behavior, but improved behavior relative to ones starting point. Among causitive factors -- from the script -- are less stress and more love (compassion). IME less stress left me less reactive. External triggers -- essentially ego threats, such as insults, attempts to guilt-trip or shame me, jealousies, envy, had much less power to evoke an immediate or viseral response. I was more flexible and able to absorb a lot of crap before responding to such. Such responses IMO are a major source or poor social behavior -- flaring out in anger, hurt or jealousy. On the positive front, increased happiness and love brought more sharing of that. I would say that meditation has improved my behavior in the long run and also short runs -- after meditating. The long run could also be attributed to maturity, education, etc. But I look to family members and friends who did not meditate and they still appear to have reactive behaviors and similar levels of love and compassion as 30 years ago. Since I believe that enlightenment is not a useful label, I hold that enlightened behavior is also not a useful label -- ending up with a similar conclusion as you, though via a different path. However, I think, and have observed, that improved behavior is quite real and a positive offshoot of sadhanas. Do you find the same, or do you hold that sadhana have not effect on behavior? Decreased anger, guilt, embarassment, jealousy, envy, and reactiveness, along with increased happiness, sparkle, crativity, love, tolerance, flexibility and compassion seem not only to be positive correlated with sadhanas but a causitive result of such. If one were to postulate or articulate an ultimate state of growth and evolution -- as some texts and authorities do -- something I don't see much value in, but who knows -- then it seems reasonable, from that angle, that improved behavior may also reach its pinnacle or its trajectory: minimal (or perhaps even zero) anger, guilt, embarassment, jealousy, and reactiveness, along with maximum happiness, sparkle, love, tolerance, flexibility and compassion. Do you find such a trajectory absurd? Just a small aside. Byron Katie (in her second book) states that enlightenment is available through her teachings. That may simply be an indication that the term has become more diluted, further losing much of any usefulness with the current onslought of neo-advaitan and new-age abuse of the word and concept. Regardless, without trying to map her use of the word with others', for her, its at a minimum, some state of inner light and freedom. And her techniques specifically affect action / behaviors, inner and outer. Inner being thought patterns and behaviors and outer being action in the world. Thus, at least on current example comes to mind where behavior is said to be vastly improved in enlightenment compared to non-enlightenment. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Even more key, it seems to me, is Krishna's assertion, Unfathomable is the course of action. BIG SNIP We can, however, keep in the back of the mind the recognition that we *could* be wrong in our evaluation. We just have no way of knowing. Nicely put Judy, I meant to bring up this verse in one of my posts on this topic. Is it chapter 4, verse 17 or verse 38? 4:17-- Action, indeed, should be understood, wrong action should also be understood, and inaction should be understood as well. Unfathomable is the course of action. MMY comments, in part: The Lord has said that knowledge of action is necessary and yet, the course of action being unfathomable, knowledge of it must remain incomplete. That knoweldge of action is incomplete, not totally absent, is a huge point many appear to miss. Time and time again Unfathomable is the course of action is trotted out to claim that we can have no knowledge of the effects of our actions. Such nonesense. We can have a reasonable and useful level of such knowlede. And with various abilities refined, some may have quite a bit of on-target abilities. The point is, there is always going to be an error term, just as statistical models all have error terms. They might explain 60% or 90% of the fluctuations of some phenomenon, but not all of it. There are always some unexplained influences and effects. That does not mean that such models are useless. Quite the contrary. In a similar fashion, humans can know some efect of acions. In some caes quite a bit of the effect. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
On Oct 10, 2005, at 5:00 PM, peterklutz wrote: In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always acts to promote evolution. Precisely...and this would be enlightened *activity*...typically the province of karma buddhas--buddhas who act through enlightened action and activity. Karma buddhas and karma dakinis (the energy of enlightened action) are portrayed in iconography *in profile* because they are too busy to take the time to look straight at you, they're always performing some skillful activity. In the unenlightened, neurotic aspect the karma energy is those who paranoid and have to organize everything--afraid of losing track of all that's going on-- often frantically organizing and controlling everything. In it's enlightened form it becomes all-accomplishing Wisdom--and greatly benefits sentient beings. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Oct 10, 2005, at 5:00 PM, peterklutz wrote: In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always acts to promote evolution. Precisely...and this would be enlightened *activity*...typically the province of karma buddhas--buddhas who act through enlightened action and activity. Karma buddhas and karma dakinis (the energy of enlightened action) are portrayed in iconography *in profile* because they are too busy to take the time to look straight at you, they're always performing some skillful activity. In the unenlightened, neurotic aspect the karma energy is those who paranoid and have to organize everything--afraid of losing track of all that's going on-- often frantically organizing and controlling everything. In it's enlightened form it becomes all-accomplishing Wisdom--and greatly benefits sentient beings. Ok, so control-freaks need not heed MMY's reported 197? comment on loosing one's bad habits? :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Action, indeed, should be understood, wrong action should also be understood, and inaction should be understood as well. Unfathomable is the course of action. MMY comments, in part: The Lord has said that knowledge of action is necessary and yet, the course of action being unfathomable, knowledge of it must remain incomplete. That knoweldge of action is incomplete, not totally absent, is a huge point many appear to miss. Time and time again Unfathomable is the course of action is trotted out to claim that we can have no knowledge of the effects of our actions. Such nonesense. Unquestionably nonsense. (However, that isn't directly relevant to the point I was making about its being impossible to use behavior as the criterion for enlightenment.) We can have a reasonable and useful level of such knowlede. And with various abilities refined, some may have quite a bit of on-target abilities. If we didn't use it, we couldn't function at all. The point is, there is always going to be an error term, just as statistical models all have error terms. They might explain 60% or 90% of the fluctuations of some phenomenon, but not all of it. There are always some unexplained influences and effects. That does not mean that such models are useless. Quite the contrary. In a similar fashion, humans can know some efect of acions. In some caes quite a bit of the effect. I'd suggest that our knowledge of the consequences of actions becomes less and less certain as the ripples of an action's ramifications extend outward from the time and place of the action. Michael Dean Goodman (on TMNews, I think it was) once set out a lengthy account of the potential consequences of some simple action unfolding over time in which they shifted from negative to positive to negative to positive, over and over, extending centuries into the future with no end in sight. It's not difficult to imagine such scenarios with any action. This is also why the notion of support of nature is iffy. An event that seems to be completely positive when it happens can have very negative consequences down the road, and vice-versa. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Action, indeed, should be understood, wrong action should also be understood, and inaction should be understood as well. Unfathomable is the course of action. MMY comments, in part: The Lord has said that knowledge of action is necessary and yet, the course of action being unfathomable, knowledge of it must remain incomplete. That knoweldge of action is incomplete, not totally absent, is a huge point many appear to miss. Time and time again Unfathomable is the course of action is trotted out to claim that we can have no knowledge of the effects of our actions. Such nonesense. Unquestionably nonsense. (However, that isn't directly relevant to the point I was making about its being impossible to use behavior as the criterion for enlightenment.) We can have a reasonable and useful level of such knowlede. And with various abilities refined, some may have quite a bit of on-target abilities. If we didn't use it, we couldn't function at all. The point is, there is always going to be an error term, just as statistical models all have error terms. They might explain 60% or 90% of the fluctuations of some phenomenon, but not all of it. There are always some unexplained influences and effects. That does not mean that such models are useless. Quite the contrary. In a similar fashion, humans can know some efect of acions. In some caes quite a bit of the effect. I'd suggest that our knowledge of the consequences of actions becomes less and less certain as the ripples of an action's ramifications extend outward from the time and place of the action. Michael Dean Goodman (on TMNews, I think it was) once set out a lengthy account of the potential consequences of some simple action unfolding over time in which they shifted from negative to positive to negative to positive, over and over, extending centuries into the future with no end in sight. It's not difficult to imagine such scenarios with any action. This is also why the notion of support of nature is iffy. An event that seems to be completely positive when it happens can have very negative consequences down the road, and vice-versa. I think it's a mistake to consider positive (sattvic?) actions/events and evolutionary-promotive action to be the same, they are not. Occasionally the growth of something new can happen only after something else that stands in the way is destroyed. If the action that at one time promotes growth is sattvic at another turn destroys something that holds growth back, the same action - although displaying both sattvic and tamasic qualities - always serves to promote evolution. Conversely, an action that on the surface appears to be sattvic might in fact be checking progress by overextending the life-span of something that need to go, whilst at another turn, the same action might destroy something that should really have been given the chance to grow. In both cases there is action that is sattvic then tamasic (and so on), but only one of these actions promotes evolution. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: do you hold that sadhana have not effect on behavior? Decreased anger, guilt, embarassment, jealousy, envy, and reactiveness, along with increased happiness, sparkle, crativity, love, tolerance, flexibility and compassion seem not only to be positive correlated with sadhanas but a causitive result of such. I agree with you that the regular practice of meditation can have the influences mention above. Over the past 35 years I have seen people who started TM, embraced the practice and philosophy, changed their diets, stopped smoking, went back to school, etc. all positive things. Years later many resumed old habits including hard core drug usage, smoking cigarettes, and other such behaviors. Is it the majority, I don't think so. However, could these behaviors change because of the idea that *now I'm a meditator, meditator's are known to be non-reactive, non-jealous, peaceloving, compassionate people, now that I meditate I am all those things* and then act as if that were true? I have seen scores of TM people revert back to previous behavior when, finally, they could not take the strain of being such a *good* person. Initially we were all told NOT to do anything other than practice TM twice per day for 20 minutes, no other beliefs required. Many people who learned TM, due to the era we started, were already in the Eastern get-enlightened mindset and the notion of being or emulating a Yogi was pretty well standardized and that was our model. So, even with the admonition to do nothing more than meditate for 40 minutes per day, we were pretty ready to take on saintly behavior. I know I can still get pretty angry after 30+ years of TMing, and all the rounding I've done. I never figured this would be what life was like after so many years and so many asanas, pranayam, and TM. I wish I had been more natural and true to myself in the early years and perhaps things could have turned out differently. Peter put it so well in another post in this strand when he made reference to people's projection of the God archetype. I think that is what very many have done. If one were to postulate or articulate an ultimate state of growth and evolution -- as some texts and authorities do -- something I don't see much value in, but who knows -- then it seems reasonable, from that angle, that improved behavior may also reach its pinnacle or its trajectory: minimal (or perhaps even zero) anger, guilt, embarassment, jealousy, and reactiveness, along with maximum happiness, sparkle, love, tolerance, flexibility and compassion. Do you find such a trajectory absurd? Just a small aside. Byron Katie (in her second book) states that enlightenment is available through her teachings. That may simply be an indication that the term has become more diluted, further losing much of any usefulness with the current onslought of neo-advaitan and new-age abuse of the word and concept. Regardless, without trying to map her use of the word with others', for her, its at a minimum, some state of inner light and freedom. And her techniques specifically affect action / behaviors, inner and outer. Inner being thought patterns and behaviors and outer being action in the world. Thus, at least on current example comes to mind where behavior is said to be vastly improved in enlightenment compared to non-enlightenment. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
On Oct 10, 2005, at 7:02 PM, peterklutz wrote: Ok, so control-freaks need not heed MMY's reported 197? comment on loosing one's bad habits? No hard and fast rule, but from this POV you transform the negative, neurotic dimension of existence into All-Accomplishing Wisdom. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, peterklutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Action, indeed, should be understood, wrong action should also be understood, and inaction should be understood as well. Unfathomable is the course of action. MMY comments, in part: The Lord has said that knowledge of action is necessary and yet, the course of action being unfathomable, knowledge of it must remain incomplete. That knoweldge of action is incomplete, not totally absent, is a huge point many appear to miss. Time and time again Unfathomable is the course of action is trotted out to claim that we can have no knowledge of the effects of our actions. Such nonesense. Unquestionably nonsense. (However, that isn't directly relevant to the point I was making about its being impossible to use behavior as the criterion for enlightenment.) We can have a reasonable and useful level of such knowlede. And with various abilities refined, some may have quite a bit of on- target abilities. If we didn't use it, we couldn't function at all. The point is, there is always going to be an error term, just as statistical models all have error terms. They might explain 60% or 90% of the fluctuations of some phenomenon, but not all of it. There are always some unexplained influences and effects. That does not mean that such models are useless. Quite the contrary. In a similar fashion, humans can know some efect of acions. In some caes quite a bit of the effect. I'd suggest that our knowledge of the consequences of actions becomes less and less certain as the ripples of an action's ramifications extend outward from the time and place of the action. Michael Dean Goodman (on TMNews, I think it was) once set out a lengthy account of the potential consequences of some simple action unfolding over time in which they shifted from negative to positive to negative to positive, over and over, extending centuries into the future with no end in sight. It's not difficult to imagine such scenarios with any action. This is also why the notion of support of nature is iffy. An event that seems to be completely positive when it happens can have very negative consequences down the road, and vice-versa. I think it's a mistake to consider positive (sattvic?) actions/events and evolutionary-promotive action to be the same, they are not. Occasionally the growth of something new can happen only after something else that stands in the way is destroyed. If the action that at one time promotes growth is sattvic at another turn destroys something that holds growth back, the same action - although displaying both sattvic and tamasic qualities - always serves to promote evolution. Conversely, an action that on the surface appears to be sattvic might in fact be checking progress by overextending the life-span of something that need to go, whilst at another turn, the same action might destroy something that should really have been given the chance to grow. In both cases there is action that is sattvic then tamasic (and so on), but only one of these actions promotes evolution. Excellent points. And you can't second-guess. It really leaves you without any ground to stand on, which is probably a good thing... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, peterklutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- huge snip -- I think it's a mistake to consider positive (sattvic?) actions/events and evolutionary-promotive action to be the same, they are not. Occasionally the growth of something new can happen only after something else that stands in the way is destroyed. If the action that at one time promotes growth is sattvic at another turn destroys something that holds growth back, the same action - although displaying both sattvic and tamasic qualities - always serves to promote evolution. Conversely, an action that on the surface appears to be sattvic might in fact be checking progress by overextending the life-span of something that need to go, whilst at another turn, the same action might destroy something that should really have been given the chance to grow. In both cases there is action that is sattvic then tamasic (and so on), but only one of these actions promotes evolution. Excellent points. And you can't second-guess. It really leaves you without any ground to stand on, which is probably a good thing... No objections..? I actually posted a reply without stepping on someone's toes? Hmmm, maybe there is a chance I'll have a decent personality in CC! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
Akasha: do you hold that sadhana have not effect on behavior? Decreased anger, guilt, embarassment, jealousy, envy, and reactiveness, along with increased happiness, sparkle, crativity, love, tolerance, flexibility and compassion seem not only to be positive correlated with sadhanas but a causitive result of such. Anon: I agree with you that the regular practice of meditation can have the influences mention above. Over the past 35 years I have seen people who started TM, embraced the practice and philosophy, changed their diets, stopped smoking, went back to school, etc. all positive things.Years later many resumed old habits including hard core drug usage, smoking cigarettes, and other such behaviors. Is it the majority, I don't think so. However, could these behaviors change because of the idea that *now I'm a meditator, meditator's are known to be non-reactive, non-jealous, peaceloving, compassionate people, now that I meditate Ak: I am quite familiar with the being an example effect on behavior -- both seeing it and living it. But IME, such changes are superficial. The changes I was touching on are deeper, more substantial. However, I agree there can be a snapback effect when one stops being a teacher and is released from the need of being ut a teacher. Or peer / social links with TMO folks diminish somewhat (or such peers become less TMOish, and thus good behavior within bounds acceptable to peers). And this can lead to adoption of old behaviors which are not affected by the sadhana-effect. But I think the latter still has a substantial effect on its own. Thats my experience at least. Anon: Many people who learned TM, due to the era we started, were already in the Eastern get-enlightened mindset and the notion of being or emulating a Yogi was pretty well standardized and that was our model. So, even with the admonition to do nothing more than meditate for 40 minutes per day, we were pretty ready to take on saintly behavior. Ak: I think that the emulation, at least on the lower level of parroting and imitating specific behaviors -- if not quirks -- of TMO role models diminishes as one grows up -- from teens or early 20's to late 30s +. So there are at least five effects: i) sadhana, ii) feeling the need to be an example of TM benefits, iii) imitating TMO role models, iv) natural maturity, v) snapback effects. I think the first can be substantially distinguished from the others. Anon: Peter put it so well in another post in this thread when he made reference to people's projection of the God archetype. I think that is what very many have done. AK: IMO,improved behavior resulting from sadhana is a reality -- at least for many. This is easily distinguished from some theoretical model / baggage some carry with them regarding the attributes of ideal behavior. To state that there is no pinnacle of ideal human behavior is a POV -- maybe true maybe not, but pretty irrelevant. The practical issue is whether sadhana / self-help / mentorships etc. can improve behavior over prior states. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
2 snips: From: anonymousff FWIW, in numerous lectures at the first Mallorca TTC, Jan-June, 1971, Maharishi told us (many times) that we should get rid of as many bad habits as possible before CC because they wouldn't go away just because we were enlightened. He said clearly we take our bad habits with us. This speaks volumes to me now, close to 35 years later, when we are all (or at least many) finally realizing that appearing to be saintly-whether strictly the *look* of saintliness, the pretty words of enlightenment from a real saint or a poseur-may be nothing but the Emperor's new new clothes. Tom T: As a nation addicted to power and cheap oil we have the best leader we could ever want. Bush the addict is leading us down the slippery slope to the bottom that all addicts eventually find as the only way out. Who else to lead us all there but the epitome of the dangerous addict who will do anything he has to do to maintain his source. All addicts protect their source and the ability to satisfy the craving. Old Bushy here is in the same mode. Just watch him, clever and lying like hell to keep the whole deal rolling forward. We are along for the ride. Hope we all learn something and that it doesn't have to be total bottom for all of us. Tom COMMENT: Both Bush and Maharishi display certain characteristics of manipulative masterminds. We can only feel sorry for those poor victims who have hitched their wagons to these (sic) glorious leader type personalities. These types are frequently found in leadership roles in businesses such as Enron, etc. Psychologists would probably label this personality type as the Big Thinker type. The Big Thinker goes through life inspiring and motivating others, but at the same time, wreaking havoc chaos, destruction and even death on those who have been unfortunate enough to join the team. IMO, similar characteristics shared by both Bush and Maharishi include: 1. An intention to grasp and utilise the the resources of others for their own ends and glorification - it may be YOUR time and/or YOUR assets, and/or YOUR future. 2. Persistently living in a fantasy world which has no relation whatsoever to the real world. 3. They are moral purists who demand a perfect world and they resent and rebel if it doesn't meet their self-defeatingly high standards. 4. The ability to project and to blame others, while at the same time cunningly avoiding responsibility for one's own failings and mistakes. Natural consequences and reality feedback are anathema to them. They are compulsively responsibility avoident. 5. They place insatiable demands and expections on others. Everyone around them is subject to endless intrusion and manipulation. They also want a discount on everything, and they haggle constantly. 6. They define eveything on their own terms, and they demand to make and change all the rules of any system or situation at whim. They are totally into arbitraty control. 7. They are always dreaming the impossible dream and then acting on it as if it were reality. They are scheme in the sky grandiose, and they live in a dream world of stated intentions, promises, and fantasies. They are all ego, self-aggrandising, expoitative, and super-status and recognition conscious. 8. They are intensely concerned with looking good and they use their pseudo perfectionism to go after illusory statusful goals, seeking always to be seen with the right people. 9. They use approval witholding, mild disapproval, and selective approval-bestowing as extremely effective manipulation control tactics. 10. They are notoriously charming and charismatic, and they are able to charm the pants off everyone to get their own way. 11. They have a huge reservoir of rage that is sugar coated in a smiling vengeance trip that will be activated by your attempts to bring some sense to the situation, often disguised in new age or spiritual rationalizations and concepts. 12. They often remain totally incommunicado and uncontactable. 13. They are experts at re-framing realities in a way that is all but unassailable. In short, they are brilliant bullshit manipulation-masters. The way to burst the bubble of this type of delusional personality is to STOP CO-OPERATING WITH THEM. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group,
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, peterklutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, peterklutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip In both cases there is action that is sattvic then tamasic (and so on), but only one of these actions promotes evolution. Excellent points. And you can't second-guess. It really leaves you without any ground to stand on, which is probably a good thing... No objections..? I actually posted a reply without stepping on someone's toes? Well, certainly not mine! Hmmm, maybe there is a chance I'll have a decent personality in CC! Are you telling us you now have an indecent one? ;-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
I find your points to be quite off the mark and restrict my critique to the simple observation that almost all of the points credit Bush jr with being far more than he is. manipulative masterminds glorious leader type personalities: Bush is neither glorious nor a leader type, he defaulted into his current position as Team Cheney's errand boy by having a father that was once president experts at re-framing realities in a way that is all but unassailable: try Bush's speech writers - the man himself is barely able to read off a cue card. 'moral purists who demand a perfect world': if Bush jr comes across like this today, it's only because someone told him to say this. It's not the man --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2 snips: From: anonymousff FWIW, in numerous lectures at the first Mallorca TTC, Jan-June, 1971, Maharishi told us (many times) that we should get rid of as many bad habits as possible before CC because they wouldn't go away just because we were enlightened. He said clearly we take our bad habits with us. This speaks volumes to me now, close to 35 years later, when we are all (or at least many) finally realizing that appearing to be saintly-whether strictly the *look* of saintliness, the pretty words of enlightenment from a real saint or a poseur-may be nothing but the Emperor's new new clothes. Tom T: As a nation addicted to power and cheap oil we have the best leader we could ever want. Bush the addict is leading us down the slippery slope to the bottom that all addicts eventually find as the only way out. Who else to lead us all there but the epitome of the dangerous addict who will do anything he has to do to maintain his source. All addicts protect their source and the ability to satisfy the craving. Old Bushy here is in the same mode. Just watch him, clever and lying like hell to keep the whole deal rolling forward. We are along for the ride. Hope we all learn something and that it doesn't have to be total bottom for all of us. Tom COMMENT: Both Bush and Maharishi display certain characteristics of manipulative masterminds. We can only feel sorry for those poor victims who have hitched their wagons to these (sic) glorious leader type personalities. These types are frequently found in leadership roles in businesses such as Enron, etc. Psychologists would probably label this personality type as the Big Thinker type. The Big Thinker goes through life inspiring and motivating others, but at the same time, wreaking havoc chaos, destruction and even death on those who have been unfortunate enough to join the team. IMO, similar characteristics shared by both Bush and Maharishi include: 1. An intention to grasp and utilise the the resources of others for their own ends and glorification - it may be YOUR time and/or YOUR assets, and/or YOUR future. 2. Persistently living in a fantasy world which has no relation whatsoever to the real world. 3. They are moral purists who demand a perfect world and they resent and rebel if it doesn't meet their self-defeatingly high standards. 4. The ability to project and to blame others, while at the same time cunningly avoiding responsibility for one's own failings and mistakes. Natural consequences and reality feedback are anathema to them. They are compulsively responsibility avoident. 5. They place insatiable demands and expections on others. Everyone around them is subject to endless intrusion and manipulation. They also want a discount on everything, and they haggle constantly. 6. They define eveything on their own terms, and they demand to make and change all the rules of any system or situation at whim. They are totally into arbitraty control. 7. They are always dreaming the impossible dream and then acting on it as if it were reality. They are scheme in the sky grandiose, and they live in a dream world of stated intentions, promises, and fantasies. They are all ego, self-aggrandising, expoitative, and super-status and recognition conscious. 8. They are intensely concerned with looking good and they use their pseudo perfectionism to go after illusory statusful goals, seeking always to be seen with the right people. 9. They use approval witholding, mild disapproval, and selective approval-bestowing as extremely effective manipulation control tactics. 10. They are notoriously charming and charismatic, and they are able to charm the pants off everyone to get their own way. 11. They have a huge reservoir of rage that is sugar coated in a smiling vengeance trip that will be activated by your attempts to bring some sense to the situation, often disguised in new age or spiritual rationalizations and concepts. 12. They often remain
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
Peterklutz wrote: What is it called for someone who is enlightened, when a ripple aware of it's status as the Ocean levels out and in the process performs a yagya that resounds for millenia to come? Peter writes: I think you are attributing qualities and abilities to the enlightened that just aren't there. It's more a projection of the God archetype than anything else. Tom T: From the Shiva Sutras third awakening. Recently MMY was quoted on a Tape on campus as saying the Shiva Sutras are the experiences of the Enlightened. Shiva sutras,snipped 24. When a yogi, after developing awareness of God Consciousness, transcends the state of Turiya, he enters into Transcendental God Consciousness. 25. Such a yogi becomes one with Shiva. 26. For him the austerity is nothing else than the normal routine of physical life. 27. And for such a yogi the daily routine talk becomes the recitation of real mantra. 28. Such a yogi gives as alms to humanity his own knowledge of the Self. 29. The yogi, who commands the entire wheel of cognitive and active organs, is the only means of attaining knowledge of Transcendental God Consciousness. 30. For him the whole universe is the totality of his own energies. 31. Living in this world of ignorance or remaining in the Transcendental God Consciousness is the totality of one's own energies of consciousness. 32. Such a yogi, though apparently engrossed in the daily routine of life, is in no way separated from God Consciousness. 33. Because such a yogi perceives the states of pain and pleasure only super-ficially, they, in no case, affect his state of Sureme-Being-Consciousness. 34. Hence he is liberated from the states of pain and pleasure and is uniquely established in his own nature. 35. On the contrary, the one who feels the absence of God Consciousness in the states of pain and pleasure, is an individual soul and a victim of recurring births and deaths. 36. The one who stands aloof from differentiatedness becomes the creator and destroyer of the entire universe. 37. The energy of creating and destroying the whole universe comes within the experience of such a yogi just as an ordinary soul possesses the power to create and destroy during his dreaming state. 38. The state of Turiya God Consciousness, that comes into experience in the beginning and at the end of the other three states (waking, dreaming, and deep sleep), should be infused and transmitted into these three states by firmly establishing one's own awareness during these intervals - beginning and end thereof. 39. And by developing such a process, a yogi must transmit the God Consciousness not only into the three states of individuality but into the entire universe. 40. By the slight appearance of individual desire, one is carried far away from the state of God Consciousness. 41. By firmly establishing one's own Self in the state of Turiya, all desires disappear and individuality is lost into universality. 42. Such a yogi is liberated in life and as his body still exists, his is called bhuta-kanchuki - having his physical body as a mere covering just like an ordinary blanket. Hence he is supreme and one with the universal Self. 43. After remaining in this state of universal Transcendental God Consciousness, the functions of inhalation and exhalation automatically take place with the object that this whole universe of action and cognition is united in God Consciousness. 44. When one contemplates on the center of Universal Consciousness, what else remains there to be sought in the practice of prana, apana, and sushumna? 45. When a Shiva-yogi is completely established in God Consciousness, he experiences this state spontaneously within and without or both. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
Peter wrote: I find your points to be quite off the mark and restrict my critique to the simple observation that almost all of the points credit Bush jr with being far more than he is. Thank you for your comments. I agree, I have probably credited Bush with more than he deserves. However, we are dealing here with 2 charismatic personalities with their fingers firmly on the purse strings. Bush's days hopefully are numbered. IMO, those who want to jump through hoops to fulfil MMY's next wild fantasy should at least be aware that certain personality types do exist, enlightened or not. They may warrant a little closer examination. If one is prepared to be honest. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, peterklutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- snip -- Nicely put. Any concept of enlightened behavior is more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary of the individual than some assessment of enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term enlightened behavior is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just behavior, period. In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three gunas, enlightened people act under the influence of sattva. Given the press conference of lately I would venture a guess that one is always true but that two is a matter of choice - and then perhaps what the times require to promote the smoothest evolution possible for the cosmically assigned area of responsibility (the World, in MMY's case). History has previously recorded enlightened people acting in manners that in effect made their physical bodies the focal point for collective bad karma. The Ultimate Sacrifice, I believe it's called when people who are not Self-realized passes through this particular experience. What is it called for someone who is enlightened, when a ripple aware of it's status as the Ocean levels out and in the process performs a yagya that resounds for millenia to come? I'm not sure what the Sanskrit term is, but in English I think that the word you're searching for is 'megalomania.' Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Actions of the Enlightened
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- peterklutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- snip -- Nicely put. Any concept of enlightened behavior is more a reflection of a cultural/psychological boundary of the individual than some assessment of enlightenment. By the way, I just realized, the term enlightened behavior is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as enlightened behavior. There's just behavior, period. In the BG MMY says at least two things that might be of guidance. The first is that an enlightened individual (another oxymoron..?) always acts to promote evolution. The second is that of the three gunas, enlightened people act under the influence of sattva. Given the press conference of lately I would venture a guess that one is always true but that two is a matter of choice - and then perhaps what the times require to promote the smoothest evolution possible for the cosmically assigned area of responsibility (the World, in MMY's case). History has previously recorded enlightened people acting in manners that in effect made their physical bodies the focal point for collective bad karma. The Ultimate Sacrifice, I believe it's called when people who are not Self-realized passes through this particular experience. What is it called for someone who is enlightened, when a ripple aware of it's status as the Ocean levels out and in the process performs a yagya that resounds for millenia to come? I think you are attributing qualities and abilities to the enlightened that just aren't there. It's more a projection of the God archetype than anything else. That's what I meant by my 'megalomania' quip, just fleshed out. The enlightened just act, in the same way that any other sentient being acts. Their actions have the same effect as those of any other sentient being. But some people, for their own reasons, seem to want the actions of the enlightened to be more powerful, more far-reaching, more special. The megalomania -- the belief that one is the center of the whirlwind, the cause to the world's effect -- does not always even start with the person on whom it is projected. It starts with those who project it. I suspect Christ is a good example of this. He was probably a pretty cool dude, just doing his thing, teaching those who showed up and had ears to hear. Then he dies, and those who showed up -- in an attempt to make THEMSELVES more important and special -- turn him into the saviour of the world. One teacher I knew said everything there is to say about being a spiritual teacher (IMO, of course) in four lines: I am not important. Today I am here And tomorrow I will be gone. I am not important. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
