[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ME: So all that is left is the claim that they somehow scrubbed out all the hopping artifacts. I believe that they just pasted in a period of coherence and that the whole chart is a fraud. I am opened to being shown how I am wrong about this. Judy: And how would we be able to prove this negative, Curtis? (As a devotee of logic, you *do* know about the impossibility of proving a negative, right?) I am not asking them to prove a negative. I am inviting anyone to prove me wrong about my claim that this chart is totally made-up. The 10 minutes of coherence during flying is phony. Someone who knows how they got 10 minutes of clean flying data can prove me wrong. Well, yes, of course you're asking to prove a negative, i.e., that the EEG coherence data is not a fraud. You're making the claim that it's a fraud; you're the one who needs to prove that's the case. It isn't up to somebody else to prove it's *not* the case. And you need to make up your mind about whether you're claiming the chart is totally made up, or just those 10 minutes. As to the 10 minutes, O-J did explain: The other thing we have done when there was hoping was to take out all epochs with artifacts. We still see elevated alpha and coherence with artifact removed. If you think that's bogus, it's up to you to show why. You could always grill O-J himself, you know. There are several people here who have his email address; I'm sure they'll send it to you privately if you ask, or at least forward your questions to him. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No need for get a clue rudeness. I've mentioned this at least half a dozen times, and you *still* haven't addressed it. You don't define what is relevant to me. Oh, blow it out your I/O port. It's irrelevant with regard to the point of the research and with regard its use for marketing, as I've explained and you have avoided addressing. If you want to make a big deal of an irrelevant issue, fine, but you don't get to claim that I shouldn't point out that you're doing so. It calls into question the whole claim of coherence during flying when they use charts in a fraudulent manor. You might at least give me credit for having handed this point to you on a silver platter. It isn't a very *strong* point, but it's really all you've got. As I noted, there's no way you can prove that the EEG coherence that *could* have been measured was fraudulent. And you also didn't address this: You know, I was wrong. The difference between the two charts *is* important to those who believe the TMO has committed a terrible sin of deception. The one from the TM site--the one on the left--clearly shows coherence *ending* after liftoff. Perhaps *that* is the one that's being used now. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
And you also didn't address this: You know, I was wrong. The difference between the two charts *is* important to those who believe the TMO has committed a terrible sin of deception. The one from the TM site--the one on the left--clearly shows coherence *ending* after liftoff. Perhaps *that* is the one that's being used now. The time unit is minutes. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: No need for get a clue rudeness. I've mentioned this at least half a dozen times, and you *still* haven't addressed it. You don't define what is relevant to me. Oh, blow it out your I/O port. It's irrelevant with regard to the point of the research and with regard its use for marketing, as I've explained and you have avoided addressing. If you want to make a big deal of an irrelevant issue, fine, but you don't get to claim that I shouldn't point out that you're doing so. It calls into question the whole claim of coherence during flying when they use charts in a fraudulent manor. You might at least give me credit for having handed this point to you on a silver platter. It isn't a very *strong* point, but it's really all you've got. As I noted, there's no way you can prove that the EEG coherence that *could* have been measured was fraudulent. And you also didn't address this: You know, I was wrong. The difference between the two charts *is* important to those who believe the TMO has committed a terrible sin of deception. The one from the TM site--the one on the left--clearly shows coherence *ending* after liftoff. Perhaps *that* is the one that's being used now. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
Me: I was telling you that I had already done what you suggested and they do line up. I blew up the blue one so I could read the numbers on the side. The resolution on the blue one is worse because of how they compressed that graphic. You can lose pixels. It could have been scanned poorly or compressed poorly being after scanned. Photoshopping something and putting it on the Web takes me less time than writing a post. I have advanced geek powers. Judy: My point on the issue of deception--which you haven't addressed at all--is that *if* it was deceptive, it's entirely irrelevant from a marketing point of view, because nobody's going to decide to take the TM-Sidhis on the mistaken belief that high EEG coherence has been measured during actual hopping, as opposed to right before hopping. Me: We have already ruled out the theory about it being before hopping. It is a 10 minute period of coherence claimed. Deception in marketing pieces is not irrelevant to me. It is part of the proof machine that builds a case on the value of the practice to people in the movement. It should matter to people who believe that the practice has value because it weakens their case in an obvious manor. One of the reasons that it interested me is because this kind of proof was in our faces all the time at MIU. We lived and breathed this stuff and it added a lot of credibility to what we were doing in my mind. Leaning how flawed it was sucked for me. As I said before, I think the whole chart was fabricated when MMY asked someone to put the highest coherence next to flying because he knew this was true. It is not something to tar the movement with. They have done this all to themselves. Misusing science to build credibility in TM is an important point to me. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Of course I had it on two layers in Photoshop with the opacity blended before I posted it. Huh?? I have no idea what you mean. In any case, what I'm suggesting is that instead of blowing up the blue one to the size of the black- and-white one, you reduce the black-and-white one to the size of the blue one, then superimpose them. That wouldn't work with the blue one blown up because of the pixellation. That is why I was amazed that you didn't see it that way. Vaj's comment about the loss of resolution in the blue version was right on and obvious in Photoshop. The blown-up version shouldn't have *lost* any resolution from the original version, should it? Rather, the low resolution of the original was made obvious when you blew it up and could see the actual pixels, right? Or does blowing it up in Photoshop decrease the original resolution? In that case, Vaj's comment is irrelevant because the differences between the charts can be seen clearly when the blue chart is its original size. They're harder to see in the blown-up version because of the pixellation, but they're still quite clear. Try it yourself. Sorry, I don't have Photoshop. About who started an argument... I had a point about what I saw as dishonesty in TM sidhi marketing. You have a different point of view. I didn't feel like we were having an argument, it all seemed civil to me. Arguments can be perfectly civil. The argument Barry and Vaj were referring to is the one we're having about whether the EEG tracings are the same or not, which is entirely different from the issue of whether the marketing was deceptive. They were insisting--erroneously and almost certainly knowingly so--that it was I who was prolonging that argument, when *you* had started it and were even more invested in it than I was, given the trouble you went to to do the Photoshopping and put up the comparison on your Web page. My point on the issue of deception--which you haven't addressed at all--is that *if* it was deceptive, it's entirely irrelevant from a marketing point of view, because nobody's going to decide to take the TM-Sidhis on the mistaken belief that high EEG coherence has been measured during actual hopping, as opposed to right before hopping. Plus which, we have no way of ruling out that the TM researchers did figure out a way to get rid of the artifacts, as O-J claims. So it's just a gigantic tempest in a teapot, it seems to me, a kind of desperate search for something, *anything*, to tar the TMo with. The ironic part is that there are so many other *legitimate* beefs about the TMO being less than totally straightforward. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And you also didn't address this: You know, I was wrong. The difference between the two charts *is* important to those who believe the TMO has committed a terrible sin of deception. The one from the TM site--the one on the left--clearly shows coherence *ending* after liftoff. Perhaps *that* is the one that's being used now. The time unit is minutes. Looks to me like it says it's measured in 40-second epochs, although the legend is hard to read. But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything anyway. Coherence is shown rising steeply, then almost plateauing for a couple of epochs, then dropping steeply just at the point of liftoff. The longer I look at the chart on the right, the less I understand what it shows. The Y axis is time, the X axis is cycles per second. So what do those hills and valleys represent? Why are the bumpiest parts supposedly the greatest coherence? And if coherence is represented by the bumpy parts, what about the flat part right underneath the bumpy part that's included in the Maximum Coherence during Yogic Flying label on the right? Why is there a sort of vertical tower of bumpiness toward the left side of the chart? Is coherence shown along the X-axis or along the Y-axis, or both? It almost seems as if there's a third axis that's missing or has been combined with one of the others to keep the chart in two dimensions. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Check out the new improvements in Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/6pRQfA/fOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me: I was telling you that I had already done what you suggested and they do line up. You had reduced the black-and-white chart to the size of the blue chart, then superimposed them (using different colors for each), and they match up perfectly? Could you put that graphic up on your site, please? I blew up the blue one so I could read the numbers on the side. The resolution on the blue one is worse because of how they compressed that graphic. You can lose pixels. It could have been scanned poorly or compressed poorly being after scanned. Photoshopping something and putting it on the Web takes me less time than writing a post. I have advanced geek powers. Yeah, that doesn't answer my questions, though. It doesn't look at all to me as though the differences between the two charts could be a function of lost pixels in the blue one. They're too extensive. It would take a whole lot of dropped pixels to wipe out that big bump at the very top of the chart. And there are some distinct bumps in the blue chart that don't show up in the bigger one. Judy: My point on the issue of deception--which you haven't addressed at all--is that *if* it was deceptive, it's entirely irrelevant from a marketing point of view, because nobody's going to decide to take the TM-Sidhis on the mistaken belief that high EEG coherence has been measured during actual hopping, as opposed to right before hopping. Me: We have already ruled out the theory about it being before hopping. How have we ruled that out? By before hopping, I mean during a given Yogic Flying session, not before people started to hop at all. It is a 10 minute period of coherence claimed. And the chart from the TM site (the one on the left) shows coherence rising steeply before liftoff, then falling off immediately after liftoff. Deception in marketing pieces is not irrelevant to me. It is part of the proof machine that builds a case on the value of the practice to people in the movement. But Curtis, it *is* irrelevant in terms of both the point of the research (which is that the Yogic Flying technique produces high EEG coherence, irrespective of when exactly it happens during the practice), and irrelevant for any marketing purpose (since nobody's going to take the TM-Sidhis course simply because they believe, incorrectly, that coherence has been measured during hopping, as opposed to right before hopping). It's a distinction without a difference. It should matter to people who believe that the practice has value because it weakens their case in an obvious manor. I'd just as soon they were scrupulously accurate in every last little tiny detail, but to elevate this one as you and others have into some monstrous deception is absurd. There are far more legitimate beefs with other TMO doings. One of the reasons that it interested me is because this kind of proof was in our faces all the time at MIU. We lived and breathed this stuff and it added a lot of credibility to what we were doing in my mind. Leaning how flawed it was sucked for me. Why don't you pick a couple of examples that genuinely *mattered* to complain about, examples of deception you know about firsthand that actually resulted in people doing things--taking courses, whatever--that they wouldn't otherwise have done? When you harp on something as trivial as this chart, you trigger the suspicion that it's the *worst* you can come up with. As I said before, I think the whole chart was fabricated when MMY asked someone to put the highest coherence next to flying because he knew this was true. And as I said before, the fact that MMY asked for the highest coherence indicates that there *was* some significantly high coherence measured during Yogic Flying (if not during hopping). If brain- wave coherence has any value, it'll have value no matter when it occurs during the practice, or when it can be *measured* during the practice. (I don't know about you, but my experience of the flying sutra is that when I use it, my mind feels as though it becomes extremely clear, and this sense of clarity continues right through hopping. If that clarity I feel before hopping is EEG coherence, then I'm damned if it isn't there during hopping as well.) I don't think you have the slightest basis for suspicion, given your account of what MMY said, that the whole coherence thing was made up from scratch. If it were, then he'd have said, Make up something that looks like high coherence and create a chart that says it's happening during flying. What you remember him saying argues that the EEG coherence data was legitimate, just not put in precisely the right place. (And we don't even know that it wasn't in the right place, since we have no way of ruling out O-J's explanation about eliminating the artifacts.) It is not something to tar the movement with. They have done this all to
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ME: So all that is left is the claim that they somehow scrubbed out all the hopping artifacts. I believe that they just pasted in a period of coherence and that the whole chart is a fraud. I am opened to being shown how I am wrong about this. Judy: And how would we be able to prove this negative, Curtis? (As a devotee of logic, you *do* know about the impossibility of proving a negative, right?) I am not asking them to prove a negative. I am inviting anyone to prove me wrong about my claim that this chart is totally made-up. The 10 minutes of coherence during flying is phony. Someone who knows how they got 10 minutes of clean flying data can prove me wrong. Take 20 minutes of data and the time-stamped film that was made duringthe data and remove any associated artifacts by hand. If they're only hopping half the time, you're left with 10 minutes of clean data. However, I don't think that the claim is that there is 10 minutes of clean data in that chart. There's a few seconds of clean data just before liftoff. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Again, it's clearly two different charts from two different studies, but as far as I can figure it makes zero difference to the discussion we were having about whether the charts were deceptive, which, as I've already noted, is irrelevant anyway. OK, that was interesting. Now back to the point. The blown up chart makes it clear that the time of 10 minutes of flying is being used. The claim was that it was the moment of liftoff that showed maximum coherence. So we know that the explanation that the coherence was seen before liftoff doesn't work. But the claim mentions liftoff so we know that they couldn't just be sitting there saying the sutra without flying. Curtis, GET A CLUE. As I've pointed out several times now--including in what you quote above--this is supremely IRRELEVANT. The IMPORTANT claim is that the brain waves become highly coherent during Yogic Flying practice. Do you really, really think someone is going to take the TM-Sidhis course because they mistakenly believe coherence has been measured during hopping as well as before liftoff, whereas they would not take it if they thought coherence was measured only before liftoff? So all that is left is the claim that they somehow scrubbed out all the hopping artifacts. I believe that they just pasted in a period of coherence and that the whole chart is a fraud. I am opened to being shown how I am wrong about this. And how would we be able to prove this negative, Curtis? (As a devotee of logic, you *do* know about the impossibility of proving a negative, right?) The funny thing to me is how long ago we knew about this error and that it is still being used. Maybe because it's so completely IRRELEVANT, Curtis. You know, I was wrong. The difference between the two charts *is* important to those who believe the TMO has committed a terrible sin of deception. The one from the TM site--the one on the left--clearly shows coherence *ending* after liftoff. Perhaps *that* is the one that's being used now. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Check out the new improvements in Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/6pRQfA/fOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
The layers function in Photoshop allows you to vary the opacity to see the lines underneath. It is not preserved when you flatten the graphic. Once flattened and compressed for the Web it looks like one graph. I can't preserve what you need to see for a Web graphic. But any program with layers can allow you to match them up. You have to go back and forth with the opacity to see how they line up. Changing opacity changes the colors, they become less distinct so you have to go back and forth to compare. It satisfied me, you will have to judge for yourself. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Me: I was telling you that I had already done what you suggested and they do line up. You had reduced the black-and-white chart to the size of the blue chart, then superimposed them (using different colors for each), and they match up perfectly? Could you put that graphic up on your site, please? I blew up the blue one so I could read the numbers on the side. The resolution on the blue one is worse because of how they compressed that graphic. You can lose pixels. It could have been scanned poorly or compressed poorly being after scanned. Photoshopping something and putting it on the Web takes me less time than writing a post. I have advanced geek powers. Yeah, that doesn't answer my questions, though. It doesn't look at all to me as though the differences between the two charts could be a function of lost pixels in the blue one. They're too extensive. It would take a whole lot of dropped pixels to wipe out that big bump at the very top of the chart. And there are some distinct bumps in the blue chart that don't show up in the bigger one. Judy: My point on the issue of deception--which you haven't addressed at all--is that *if* it was deceptive, it's entirely irrelevant from a marketing point of view, because nobody's going to decide to take the TM-Sidhis on the mistaken belief that high EEG coherence has been measured during actual hopping, as opposed to right before hopping. Me: We have already ruled out the theory about it being before hopping. How have we ruled that out? By before hopping, I mean during a given Yogic Flying session, not before people started to hop at all. It is a 10 minute period of coherence claimed. And the chart from the TM site (the one on the left) shows coherence rising steeply before liftoff, then falling off immediately after liftoff. Deception in marketing pieces is not irrelevant to me. It is part of the proof machine that builds a case on the value of the practice to people in the movement. But Curtis, it *is* irrelevant in terms of both the point of the research (which is that the Yogic Flying technique produces high EEG coherence, irrespective of when exactly it happens during the practice), and irrelevant for any marketing purpose (since nobody's going to take the TM-Sidhis course simply because they believe, incorrectly, that coherence has been measured during hopping, as opposed to right before hopping). It's a distinction without a difference. It should matter to people who believe that the practice has value because it weakens their case in an obvious manor. I'd just as soon they were scrupulously accurate in every last little tiny detail, but to elevate this one as you and others have into some monstrous deception is absurd. There are far more legitimate beefs with other TMO doings. One of the reasons that it interested me is because this kind of proof was in our faces all the time at MIU. We lived and breathed this stuff and it added a lot of credibility to what we were doing in my mind. Leaning how flawed it was sucked for me. Why don't you pick a couple of examples that genuinely *mattered* to complain about, examples of deception you know about firsthand that actually resulted in people doing things--taking courses, whatever--that they wouldn't otherwise have done? When you harp on something as trivial as this chart, you trigger the suspicion that it's the *worst* you can come up with. As I said before, I think the whole chart was fabricated when MMY asked someone to put the highest coherence next to flying because he knew this was true. And as I said before, the fact that MMY asked for the highest coherence indicates that there *was* some significantly high coherence measured during Yogic Flying (if not during hopping). If brain- wave coherence has any value, it'll have value no matter when it occurs during the practice, or when it can be *measured* during the practice. (I don't know about you, but my experience of the flying sutra is that when I use it, my mind feels as though it becomes extremely clear, and this sense of clarity continues right through hopping. If
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: And you also didn't address this: You know, I was wrong. The difference between the two charts *is* important to those who believe the TMO has committed a terrible sin of deception. The one from the TM site--the one on the left--clearly shows coherence *ending* after liftoff. Perhaps *that* is the one that's being used now. The time unit is minutes. Looks to me like it says it's measured in 40-second epochs, although the legend is hard to read. But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything anyway. Coherence is shown rising steeply, then almost plateauing for a couple of epochs, then dropping steeply just at the point of liftoff. The longer I look at the chart on the right, the less I understand what it shows. The Y axis is time, the X axis is cycles per second. So what do those hills and valleys represent? Why are the bumpiest parts supposedly the greatest coherence? And if coherence is represented by the bumpy parts, what about the flat part right underneath the bumpy part that's included in the Maximum Coherence during Yogic Flying label on the right? Why is there a sort of vertical tower of bumpiness toward the left side of the chart? Is coherence shown along the X-axis or along the Y-axis, or both? It almost seems as if there's a third axis that's missing or has been combined with one of the others to keep the chart in two dimensions. There's a z axis for coherence that is skewed to let you see it as you look straight down. One of the things I'm hoping to do with some raw data that Alarik Arenander is sending me is to keep it in true 3D form and put it on the web using a viewer that lets you spin it around as a 3D object. That way people can see that its mountain peaks of coherence. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The layers function in Photoshop allows you to vary the opacity to see the lines underneath. It is not preserved when you flatten the graphic. Once flattened and compressed for the Web it looks like one graph. I can't preserve what you need to see for a Web graphic. But any program with layers can allow you to match them up. You have to go back and forth with the opacity to see how they line up. Changing opacity changes the colors, they become less distinct so you have to go back and forth to compare. It satisfied me, you will have to judge for yourself. Typical Adobe crippling of its own software. The capability to print (or distribute) transparent objects has been around for for well over a decade, but Adobe is only now introducing it as part of a major upgrade. Jerks. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip The longer I look at the chart on the right, the less I understand what it shows. The Y axis is time, the X axis is cycles per second. So what do those hills and valleys represent? Why are the bumpiest parts supposedly the greatest coherence? And if coherence is represented by the bumpy parts, what about the flat part right underneath the bumpy part that's included in the Maximum Coherence during Yogic Flying label on the right? Why is there a sort of vertical tower of bumpiness toward the left side of the chart? Is coherence shown along the X-axis or along the Y-axis, or both? It almost seems as if there's a third axis that's missing or has been combined with one of the others to keep the chart in two dimensions. There's a z axis for coherence that is skewed to let you see it as you look straight down. No sh*t! Pretty good guess on my part, then. One of the things I'm hoping to do with some raw data that Alarik Arenander is sending me is to keep it in true 3D form and put it on the web using a viewer that lets you spin it around as a 3D object. That way people can see that its mountain peaks of coherence. I'll look forward to that, because I still have no idea what that third axis means in practical terms. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
I love my Photoshop! Interesting point about the limits, I didn't know this was solved in later versions. I am using 6 and need to upgrade sometime. Does Fireworks do this? I used that program years ago and it had some interesting differences. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: The layers function in Photoshop allows you to vary the opacity to see the lines underneath. It is not preserved when you flatten the graphic. Once flattened and compressed for the Web it looks like one graph. I can't preserve what you need to see for a Web graphic. But any program with layers can allow you to match them up. You have to go back and forth with the opacity to see how they line up. Changing opacity changes the colors, they become less distinct so you have to go back and forth to compare. It satisfied me, you will have to judge for yourself. Typical Adobe crippling of its own software. The capability to print (or distribute) transparent objects has been around for for well over a decade, but Adobe is only now introducing it as part of a major upgrade. Jerks. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Great things are happening at Yahoo! Groups. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/TISQkA/hOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The layers function in Photoshop allows you to vary the opacity to see the lines underneath. It is not preserved when you flatten the graphic. Once flattened and compressed for the Web it looks like one graph. I can't preserve what you need to see for a Web graphic. But any program with layers can allow you to match them up. You have to go back and forth with the opacity to see how they line up. Changing opacity changes the colors, they become less distinct so you have to go back and forth to compare. It satisfied me, you will have to judge for yourself. trying one more time Did you reduce the larger chart to the size of the blue chart before you did this layering? Curtis, I honestly don't know why you bother to participate in these discussions when you ignore almost everything that challenges opinions you have expressed. Such as: snip Judy: My point on the issue of deception--which you haven't addressed at all--is that *if* it was deceptive, it's entirely irrelevant from a marketing point of view, because nobody's going to decide to take the TM-Sidhis on the mistaken belief that high EEG coherence has been measured during actual hopping, as opposed to right before hopping. Me: We have already ruled out the theory about it being before hopping. How have we ruled that out? By before hopping, I mean during a given Yogic Flying session, not before people started to hop at all. It is a 10 minute period of coherence claimed. And the chart from the TM site (the one on the left) shows coherence rising steeply before liftoff, then falling off immediately after liftoff. Deception in marketing pieces is not irrelevant to me. It is part of the proof machine that builds a case on the value of the practice to people in the movement. But Curtis, it *is* irrelevant in terms of both the point of the research (which is that the Yogic Flying technique produces high EEG coherence, irrespective of when exactly it happens during the practice), and irrelevant for any marketing purpose (since nobody's going to take the TM-Sidhis course simply because they believe, incorrectly, that coherence has been measured during hopping, as opposed to right before hopping). It's a distinction without a difference. It should matter to people who believe that the practice has value because it weakens their case in an obvious manor. I'd just as soon they were scrupulously accurate in every last little tiny detail, but to elevate this one as you and others have into some monstrous deception is absurd. There are far more legitimate beefs with other TMO doings. One of the reasons that it interested me is because this kind of proof was in our faces all the time at MIU. We lived and breathed this stuff and it added a lot of credibility to what we were doing in my mind. Leaning how flawed it was sucked for me. Why don't you pick a couple of examples that genuinely *mattered* to complain about, examples of deception you know about firsthand that actually resulted in people doing things--taking courses, whatever--that they wouldn't otherwise have done? When you harp on something as trivial as this chart, you trigger the suspicion that it's the *worst* you can come up with. As I said before, I think the whole chart was fabricated when MMY asked someone to put the highest coherence next to flying because he knew this was true. And as I said before, the fact that MMY asked for the highest coherence indicates that there *was* some significantly high coherence measured during Yogic Flying (if not during hopping). If brain- wave coherence has any value, it'll have value no matter when it occurs during the practice, or when it can be *measured* during the practice. (I don't know about you, but my experience of the flying sutra is that when I use it, my mind feels as though it becomes extremely clear, and this sense of clarity continues right through hopping. If that clarity I feel before hopping is EEG coherence, then I'm damned if it isn't there during hopping as well.) I don't think you have the slightest basis for suspicion, given your account of what MMY said, that the whole coherence thing was made up from scratch. If it were, then he'd have said, Make up something that looks like high coherence and create a chart that says it's happening during flying. What you remember him saying argues that the EEG coherence data was legitimate, just not put in precisely the right place. (And we don't even know that it wasn't in the right place, since we have no way of ruling out O-J's explanation about eliminating the artifacts.) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
I'll be back I am just playing a lot this weekend . --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: The layers function in Photoshop allows you to vary the opacity to see the lines underneath. It is not preserved when you flatten the graphic. Once flattened and compressed for the Web it looks like one graph. I can't preserve what you need to see for a Web graphic. But any program with layers can allow you to match them up. You have to go back and forth with the opacity to see how they line up. Changing opacity changes the colors, they become less distinct so you have to go back and forth to compare. It satisfied me, you will have to judge for yourself. trying one more time Did you reduce the larger chart to the size of the blue chart before you did this layering? Curtis, I honestly don't know why you bother to participate in these discussions when you ignore almost everything that challenges opinions you have expressed. Such as: snip Judy: My point on the issue of deception--which you haven't addressed at all--is that *if* it was deceptive, it's entirely irrelevant from a marketing point of view, because nobody's going to decide to take the TM-Sidhis on the mistaken belief that high EEG coherence has been measured during actual hopping, as opposed to right before hopping. Me: We have already ruled out the theory about it being before hopping. How have we ruled that out? By before hopping, I mean during a given Yogic Flying session, not before people started to hop at all. It is a 10 minute period of coherence claimed. And the chart from the TM site (the one on the left) shows coherence rising steeply before liftoff, then falling off immediately after liftoff. Deception in marketing pieces is not irrelevant to me. It is part of the proof machine that builds a case on the value of the practice to people in the movement. But Curtis, it *is* irrelevant in terms of both the point of the research (which is that the Yogic Flying technique produces high EEG coherence, irrespective of when exactly it happens during the practice), and irrelevant for any marketing purpose (since nobody's going to take the TM-Sidhis course simply because they believe, incorrectly, that coherence has been measured during hopping, as opposed to right before hopping). It's a distinction without a difference. It should matter to people who believe that the practice has value because it weakens their case in an obvious manor. I'd just as soon they were scrupulously accurate in every last little tiny detail, but to elevate this one as you and others have into some monstrous deception is absurd. There are far more legitimate beefs with other TMO doings. One of the reasons that it interested me is because this kind of proof was in our faces all the time at MIU. We lived and breathed this stuff and it added a lot of credibility to what we were doing in my mind. Leaning how flawed it was sucked for me. Why don't you pick a couple of examples that genuinely *mattered* to complain about, examples of deception you know about firsthand that actually resulted in people doing things--taking courses, whatever--that they wouldn't otherwise have done? When you harp on something as trivial as this chart, you trigger the suspicion that it's the *worst* you can come up with. As I said before, I think the whole chart was fabricated when MMY asked someone to put the highest coherence next to flying because he knew this was true. And as I said before, the fact that MMY asked for the highest coherence indicates that there *was* some significantly high coherence measured during Yogic Flying (if not during hopping). If brain- wave coherence has any value, it'll have value no matter when it occurs during the practice, or when it can be *measured* during the practice. (I don't know about you, but my experience of the flying sutra is that when I use it, my mind feels as though it becomes extremely clear, and this sense of clarity continues right through hopping. If that clarity I feel before hopping is EEG coherence, then I'm damned if it isn't there during hopping as well.) I don't think you have the slightest basis for suspicion, given your account of what MMY said, that the whole coherence thing was made up from scratch. If it were, then he'd have said, Make up something that looks like high coherence and create a chart that says it's happening during flying. What you remember him saying argues that the EEG coherence data was legitimate, just not put in precisely the
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I love my Photoshop! Interesting point about the limits, I didn't know this was solved in later versions. I am using 6 and need to upgrade sometime. Think its at least partially solved in Photoshop CS 2, maye earlier. Does Fireworks do this? I used that program years ago and it had some interesting differences. Dunno. I know that Apple used to include a graphics library called QuickDraw GX that would do things that no commercial software package could do, including having transparent text overlaying bitmapped pictures, and then printing out with transparency intact. Jobs killed GX as part of the backroom deals with MS and Adobe in exchange for their support when he took over Apple. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Check out the new improvements in Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/6pRQfA/fOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip Do you see where there's a 10-minute period of actual hopping shown on the charts at the URL? I can't find what John is talking about. The original brochure chart in the very back of CP Vol I shows that. It's the least tightly worded one that I've seen, which makes me suspect it was wrtten by MMY directly to reflect his beliefs about what was going on, rather than what the charts actually show. I don't suppose if I asked you a third time, I could get you to quote what it says? It's a two-page brochure. On the left is a picture of 3 guys in the air. A line runs along the top with 3 sets of arrows. One pointing down to the photo, one down to an EEG cospar graph of an entire [early version of the] TM-Sidhis program, including 15 minutes of Yogic Flying, and one down to a chart plotting overall EEG coherence and heart rate vs time that is centered on the peak of the EEG chart with the word lift at the peak. There's three labels associated with the photo and two charts. One says EEG Brainwave Coherence and 2 say Maximum coherence during flying. The photo has the caption They're up in the air--first stage of flying. There's a bunch of photos at the bottom with the captions Governors of the A of E in training in Switzerland and They're all up in the air, inviting everyone who still has their feet on the ground... quoting MMY. The text in the middle, which is about half of the entire brochure, doesn't mention flying or hopping or anything else (I was wrong about this part sorry and you were correct to ask for clarification). It just goes on and on about maximum coherence, optimal brain functioning, dawn of the Age of Englightenment, etc. Aside from not mentioning hopping, I wouldn't call it deceptive. Misleading, perhaps, but MMY assumed that floating was just around the corner, I think. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/SISQkA/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, johnlasher20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't seen any other chart of the same process which looked basically different, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Well, the chart at the URL you provided is quite a bit different from the chart you described to O-J. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, johnlasher20002000 no_reply@ wrote: The chart I'm refering to is also in the collected papers, a blue book, and is similar to the chart on the rightof the linked page which shows (from the bottom up, the Y axis marked as time) the period of meditation showing coherence in the brainwave frequency range from about 7-8 cycles downward to 1 or 2 cycles this coherence present through the whole range. Then during the next period (sutras) it shows coherence in a narrower band in the alpha range about 6-9 cps. Then it shows the period of flying with coherence present from alpha upwards into beta or the normal waking brainwave frequency. If this is accurate it would tend to show a process across the entire time framework of displaying brainwave coherence starting a deeper levels and eventually bringing it to the surface of the waking state while maintaining coherence. Probably a good thing to do. What I'm trying to find out is if the data is accurately reflecting this process. Thanks, John. That *sounds* right. Does it make sense to you that this would be a chart from the early days before anybody was actually hopping? Is this the chart O-J was referring to in his response to your email? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/SISQkA/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Yogic flying ??? chart
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, johnlasher20002000 no_reply@ wrote: The chart I'm refering to is also in the collected papers, a blue book, and is similar to the chart on the rightof the linked page which shows (from the bottom up, the Y axis marked as time) the period of meditation showing coherence in the brainwave frequency range from about 7-8 cycles downward to 1 or 2 cycles this coherence present through the whole range. Then during the next period (sutras) it shows coherence in a narrower band in the alpha range about 6-9 cps. Then it shows the period of flying with coherence present from alpha upwards into beta or the normal waking brainwave frequency. If this is accurate it would tend to show a process across the entire time framework of displaying brainwave coherence starting a deeper levels and eventually bringing it to the surface of the waking state while maintaining coherence. Probably a good thing to do. What I'm trying to find out is if the data is accurately reflecting this process. Thanks, John. That *sounds* right. Does it make sense to you that this would be a chart from the early days before anybody was actually hopping? I'm pretty sure there was SOME hopping going on. Otherwise, they couldn't talk about liftoff. Is this the chart O-J was referring to in his response to your email? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
