Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 11, 2006, at 6:47 AM, t3rinity wrote: Nisargadatta said many times, that he was simply lucky that he believed and trusted his master, and that he wasn't a great intellect. He got it because he had trust, and accepted the truth in the core of his heart, and that is the only way it can work IMHO. But he also pointed out there is really only a certain point that 'sadhana ends' and basically advocated a rigorous sadhana which included mastery of shakti, the elements and the pranas. This is largely missed in Neo-Nisargadatta appropriated teachings. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 11, 2006, at 11:51 AM, t3rinity wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 11, 2006, at 6:47 AM, t3rinity wrote: Nisargadatta said many times, that he was simply lucky that he believed and trusted his master, and that he wasn't a great intellect. He got it because he had trust, and accepted the truth in the core of his heart, and that is the only way it can work IMHO. But he also pointed out there is really only a certain point that 'sadhana ends' and basically advocated a rigorous sadhana which included mastery of shakti, the elements and the pranas. This is largely missed in Neo-Nisargadatta appropriated teachings. This must be a myth, as I don't see any one quote were he says so. There are volomes and volumes of text directly by Nisargadatta out there, were he simply does not talk about the need for meditation, nor talk about Shakti or Kundalini. (to clarify my point: I am all for meditation, but it should not be made conditional for enlightenment.) So, if you can provide a direct quote from any of his talks, it would be nice of you to post it. The majority of what's out there is what other people *heard* him say--they were not written by him. In the only work written in his own hand Nisargadatta states: The Saint, and now his preceptor, makes it plain to him that what he has had is not the real vision, which is beyond the said experiences, and is only to be had through Self-Realization. At this point, the aspirant reaches the stage of the meditator. In the beginning, the Sadhaka is instructed into the secrets of his own person, and of the indwelling spirit; the meaning and nature of prana, the various plexuses, and the nature and arousal of the Kundalini, and the nature of the Self. Later on, he comes to know of the origin of the five elements, their activity, radiation, and merits and defects. Meanwhile his mind undergoes the process of purification and acquires composure, and this the Sadhaka experiences through the deep-laid subtle center of the Indweller; he also knows how and why it is there, only that the deiform element is kindled. This knowledge transforms him into the pure, eternal, and spiritual form of a SadGuru who is now in a position to initiate others into the secrets of the spirit. The stage of Sadhakahood ends here. That's not to say that these practice give the final discrimination for the person, but in almost every case, advaitic adepts will have had a rigorous sadhana before the final discrimination. As is typical of most Nath initiates, Nisargadatta does not tell any of the inner practices of his Nath initiation other than the words his teacher gave him in his final discrimination. But what he describes above is not unusual for a Nath. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 8, 2006, at 11:11 PM, anon_couscous_ff wrote: Puja's an example. A most profound darshan. The Holy Tradition puja? Indeed...really a form of guru-yoga IMMO. Yes, thats the example I was referring to. But upon reflection, various pujas and homas also create a strong darshan atmosphere. Different teachers will often give specific guru yogas or guru mantras to connect to the teaching, and the effect of such practices just cannot be underestimated. IME it's possible to achieve the most incredible, almost unbelievable progress through their use. It's as if you are actually being guided into your particular practice. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 8, 2006, at 11:19 PM, anon_couscous_ff wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ever watched a bunch of Gelukpa monks--who spend a lot of their time experientially investigating consciousness--debate? No, but some how I feel exactly as if I have. The words bring a detailed image to mind. And the Gelukpa monks is not a bad model. Using the fine discrimination of the intellect to bring out subtle points and distinctions. Or the Socratic model. Asking questions, participating in the dialectic can be quite enlivening. Was Socrates wrong in saying it leads to the highest knowledge, to Know Thyself? Well in the case of the Gelukpa's, I see a group of people, investigating *emptiness* at finer and finer levels and then spending a good amount of the rest of their time debating the paradox of how there can be 'form and emptiness', 'emptiness and form'. As a consequence they're able to train others in emptiness in a very authentic way. They share and play well with others. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 9, 2006, at 4:59 AM, t3rinity wrote:From what I know, and what I have seenin the Satsang movement, this is exactly what is being done there: Thetruth of non-duality is being pointed out and explained in terms ofhis own everyday experience, it is being discussed, and quite oftenpeople are guided towards self-inquiry ('who am I'.)Yes this is what is happening in some cases IMO. Pointing out. However at the same time after some are "introduced" they go on rather quickly to claim Buddhahood, Unity Consciousness (brahma-chetana), Cosmic Consciousness (turiyatita) or in the case of TMO people, they go on to claim what "Maharishi said". In every case I am aware of, none of these people would fit the definition of those states or the experience. There's a strong element of grandiosity in it all.It's interesting, I was reading some prophecies from the 8th century regarding when non-dual teaching would start coming to the cities of the west and they describe this very phenomenon and what will happen very precisely. One of the comments is 'if it were so easy to reach perfect Buddhahood, the ocean of samsara would already have been drained long ago.'"Masters of old lashed out at those who claimed to be enlightened yet refused to be tested, calling them "earthworms living in the slime of self-validated satori"."-Philip Kapleau RoshiHow many were tested by their teachers? would be my question--but I already know the answer.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 9, 2006, at 11:31 AM, anon_couscous_ff wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Apr 9, 2006, at 4:59 AM, t3rinity wrote:
From what I know, and what I have seen
in the Satsang movement, this is exactly what is being done
there: The
truth of non-duality is being pointed out and explained in
terms of
his own everyday experience, it is being discussed, and quite
often
people are guided towards self-inquiry ('who am I'.)
Yes this is what is happening in some cases IMO. Pointing out.
However at the same time after some are introduced they go on
rather quickly to claim Buddhahood, Unity Consciousness (brahma-
chetana), Cosmic Consciousness (turiyatita) or in the case of TMO
people, they go on to claim what Maharishi said. In every case
I am
aware of, none of these people would fit the definition of those
states or the experience. There's a strong element of grandiosity in
it all.
In some posts there seems to be a jumping around between a describing
a dualistic state, turiyatita, and the non-dual state, brahma-chetana,
and/or equating them. And even apparent references to and confusion
about a turiya type experience being non-dual. The words imply some
embedded (non)-logic along the lines of Consciousness is awake to
itself, Consciousness is Brahman, therefore I am in Brahman
Consciousness.
Very much so.
But expect to be attacked by some egos if you mention or point this out!
It was even suggested that I should be happy and delighted that
people are claiming to be enlightened--and I couldn't help but think
did the person who said that have the understanding that I would
feel that way if I felt that was the case? What did they think I
would feel if it was not the case?
In a real sense, if we keep any framework, which had a beginning in
time, it is just 'lust of result'--attachment to the fruit of our
practice. Addiction to the idea of enlightenment is still addiction.
It's interesting, I was reading some prophecies from the 8th century
regarding when non-dual teaching would start coming to the cities of
the west and they describe this very phenomenon and what will happen
very precisely. One of the comments is 'if it were so easy to reach
perfect Buddhahood, the ocean of samsara would already have been
drained long ago.'
Masters of old lashed out at those who claimed to be
enlightened yet refused to be tested, calling them
earthworms living in the slime of self-validated
satori.
-Philip Kapleau Roshi
How many were tested by their teachers? would be my
question--but I already know the answer.
And, it seems, those not tested self-proclaimed ones then go on to
proclaim others as Brahman or whatever.
Oh yes. And they'll attack you for questioning or mentioning certain
blind spots.
And not particularly open to questioning about their statements, by
peers. That is another type of testing, albeit a lower level, with
quesions such as -- is the experience parallel to that of others, are
there logical inconsistencies being presented, and are claimed
charactristics of a claimed state manifest in the claimer?
Yes, yes, yes!
Questioners are at times cast as snakes or as being jealous of not
having any experience, etc. It seems that if the experience is true,
and the interpretation of it is strong, any and all questions would be
welcome. Answering questions can be a catalyst deeper understanding,
to bring light to unexplored perspectives and nuances.
Yepper.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 9, 2006, at 12:19 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:The only reply I have for both of you, is, 'argue for your limitations, and they are yours'. There is simply *no way* to justify the steps or signs of Enlightenment through the lens of the small self ego, something which you both persist in doing. Ain't never going to happen, boys. Having said that, anyone claiming Enlightenment when such is not the case for them, is imo pathetic. The state is its own reward regardless what we may say or do. To fake such a thing is laughable and sad. That which you resist, will persist. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 9, 2006, at 2:09 PM, anon_couscous_ff wrote: Does your reason for reference to a space and time starting point because you experience a source of knowldge in that? If so, it makes some sense from my experince, though your words, to me do not clearly get to that point. I used to discuss with Rory, both on and off line, what I referred to as exploding bindu points ofknowledge. Probably a silly name for it, but its what came to mind. Tiny, apparent seeds of light within consciousness that when directed attention was placed on them, would explode to full form like a seed to a giant sequoia -- within an instant. The full tree would explain the question inherent in the directed attention. I would undersand the 'thing as if suddenly I had been connected to a billion terabyte lan. But this had little to do with the intellect, as I use the term. The bindu points were in a fetile field near the intellect -- the intellect could make distinctions regarding it, but the mechanics of the exploding bindu was not an intelectual process. From my POV, bindus or tigles as they're called in Tibetan are a natural manifestation of our own Wisdom-energy. While they can be different things, like the essences of prana running in various subtle channels, from the POV of the non-dual state, they are a part of how that state develops and manifests within itself. If one can integrate the non-dual state well enough, these will develop into mandalas and tend to be self interacting. I assume by the center of time and space, the starting point, you mean Consciousness aware of Itself and not some reference to big bang / and or singularities. Assuming the former, from my perspective, it seems incomplete to refer to it as the starting point. It is completeness, the non-starting, non-ending, non-point. Exactly why I made the comment good luck with that. The non-dual state cannot have a beginning, be a point, be a structure or have an end. If so, it is not your everpresent non-dual condition which was yours always. If we are cultivating a state with a beginning or an end or a structure, no matter how high falutin' it may seem, it will not be helpful when we are dying. And in my experience will make for a real rough ride (to put it nicely). To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 9, 2006, at 3:40 PM, t3rinity wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Apr 9, 2006, at 4:59 AM, t3rinity wrote:
From what I know, and what I have seen
in the Satsang movement, this is exactly what is being done
there: The
truth of non-duality is being pointed out and explained in
terms of
his own everyday experience, it is being discussed, and quite
often
people are guided towards self-inquiry ('who am I'.)
Yes this is what is happening in some cases IMO. Pointing out.
It is ALWAYS happening. Its the core of the teaching: that anybodies
ultimate identity is Brahman, the Self whatever you like to say.
Should I give you quotes of the Ribhu Gita (highly recommended by
Ramana), or Avadhuta Gita?
No thank you, I'm familiar with the traditional POV.
However at the same time after some are introduced they go on
rather quickly to claim Buddhahood, Unity Consciousness (brahma-
chetana), Cosmic Consciousness (turiyatita) or in the case of TMO
people, they go on to claim what Maharishi said.
I don't know about that. In the Satsangs that I observered, nobody
stands there saying: 'I am enlightened and you are not' I indeed have
never heard of this.
Well it's hard for me to comment not knowing what you're referring
to--a traditional satsang or a neo-satsang.
You may here something like: 'Enlightenment is a
concept, get rid of it' or, ' you are already what you are seeking'
etc. All these claims can be perfectly substantiated by scriptures. I
am happy to cite, if you don't believe me.
No that's fine, this is nothing new.
So, the point for me is
not, is there anybody invalidly claiming enlightenment, or even
different levels (equating them with completely different terminology
like CC or UC, something I have never heard in the Satsang scene), but
rather, does this format of interaction in modern Satsang conform to
something valid, as described in the ancient scriptures, and yes it
does. There are so many Shankaracharyas, giving discourses on Advaita,
and they make no secret that they aren't enlightened. So, really
speaking, and also I know this from my interactions with traditional
Swamis of the Dasanami order, the main stress has always been on the
correct teaching, the message of unity of Atman and Brahman (soul and
God), the message that we are not the localized ego, rather than on
the messanger. Also the scriptures of Shankara state this clearly.
They point out, that whoever tells the (advaitic) truth, he is the
teacher.
In every case I am
aware of, none of these people would fit the definition of those
states or the experience. There's a strong element of grandiosity in
it all.
To you. I haven't oserved it.
I had not before either. In traditional settings I have experienced
it was certainly not the case. It's a growing thing here though.
To the opposite, the Satsang movement
plays down enlightenment as an 'attainment'. It rather makes it
accessable, just always referring you to the next step. (Like: who is
asking this question?)
Yes, this a popular theme, among others.
It's interesting, I was reading some prophecies from the 8th century
regarding when non-dual teaching would start coming to the cities of
the west and they describe this very phenomenon and what will happen
very precisely. One of the comments is 'if it were so easy to reach
perfect Buddhahood, the ocean of samsara would already have been
drained long ago.'
Surely you must be kidding. When we talk of Advaita - Non-duality - we
are indeed referring to the school of Shankara. Buddhism is basically
dualistic in outlook, and Shankara never taught to attain 'Buddhahood'
Very funny how you mix things indeed.
The non-dual schools of Buddhism and the non-dual schools of Hinduism
share much in common. They share some differences as well.
Masters of old lashed out at those who claimed to be
enlightened yet refused to be tested, calling them
earthworms living in the slime of self-validated
satori.
-Philip Kapleau Roshi
How many were tested by their teachers? would be my
question--but I already know the answer.
I was investigating the Satsang movement in the context of its
historic origin, while you mix it with Zen Buddhism and Tibetan
Vajrayana. Now that is weird.
The non-dual state is really not a brand name thing. Non-dual is non-
dual. That is not meant to mean there are no differences, but the
state is essentially the same. Different schools will emphasize
different aspects. Although I will admit it was odd to me that
satsangers were claiming buddhahood.
Many point out that Shankara is actually a reaction to Buddhism's non-
dualism. In fact it's a common critique of him, that he's essentially
a Buddhist.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 9, 2006, at 3:43 PM, anon_couscous_ff wrote: I used the term exploding bindu points of knowledge -- quite loosely, not formally having any traditional knowldge of bindus -- but it was a term that seemed to fit. Do you have links (beyond what I can find in a google search) the well discuss bindus and tigles -- and their development into mandalas. It's not something that's generally discussed--typically a mouth-to- ear (upadesha) teaching. Hit me off list (not sure I still have your email address). The non-dual state cannot have a beginning, be a point, be a structure or have an end. If so, it is not your everpresent non-dual condition which was yours always. If we are cultivating a state with a beginning or an end or a structure, no matter how high falutin' it may seem, it will not be helpful when we are dying. And in my experience will make for a real rough ride (to put it nicely). Experience during exercises and retreats, or in past lives? In dark retreat/bardo retreat. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 9, 2006, at 4:00 PM, anon_couscous_ff wrote: I don't know about that. In the Satsangs that I observered, nobody stands there saying: 'I am enlightened and you are not' I indeed have never heard of this. I don't see Vaj stating that. You maybe are reading into his post something that is not in the words. No, I have not said that. It would be kind of silly if it did happen-- everyone would get up and leave! Quite the opposite, my experience would be friendly, open hearts, non-judging in general, mutually supportive of others experience and very giggly. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 9, 2006, at 3:32 PM, sparaig wrote: Paraphrasing what the official stance in the TMO is about claiming enlightenment: People may say liar and be turned off to TM because they believe you are lying. People may look at you and say Who wants to be like that? and stop meditating because they think everyone must behave exactly the same when they're enlightened. People may look at you and say I want to be like that and try to behave like you rather than wanting to be themselves. From the TMO's perspective, its a no-win situation to have people claiming enlightenment in the wild. Now, in anonymous laboratory conditions, where people are being examined for physiological correlates of their claims, this doesn't apply, at least in my mind and theminds of the researchers. And this official response is quoted where? A recent press release? Dome announcement? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 9, 2006, at 3:49 PM, sparaig wrote: MMY's simple test for someone in Brahman Chetana is: can they float? Since CC is associated with yoga/samkhya-darshana and Patanjali's yoga-sutra why would they not be able to float having achieved turiyatita (CC)? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 9, 2006, at 7:41 PM, anon_couscous_ff wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 9, 2006, at 3:49 PM, sparaig wrote: MMY's simple test for someone in Brahman Chetana is: can they float? Since CC is associated with yoga/samkhya-darshana and Patanjali's yoga-sutra why would they not be able to float having achieved turiyatita (CC)? Yes, at one point he was saying clear sidhis was the test of cc. I thought so. Sparaig has repeatedly claimed this, only to be told differently by close students of M.--but then he keeps on repeating it! What's up with that? It would be a major contradiction in terms of the three main TM darshanas if it was as he claimed. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 9, 2006, at 7:48 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 9, 2006, at 7:41 PM, anon_couscous_ff wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Apr 9, 2006, at 3:49 PM, sparaig wrote: MMY's simple test for someone in Brahman Chetana is: can they float? Since CC is associated with yoga/samkhya-darshana and Patanjali's yoga-sutra why would they not be able to float having achieved turiyatita (CC)? Yes, at one point he was saying clear sidhis was the test of cc. I thought so. Sparaig has repeatedly claimed this, only to be told differently by close students of M.--but then he keeps on repeating it! What's up with that? It would be a major contradiction in terms of the three main TM darshanas if it was as he claimed. Er, not really. Just as there is transcendence and Transcendence during meditation, and finally, nirva-kalpa samadhi; there can be different implications for using the same general terms. What did MMY mean by 'clear sidhis' and CC in this context? Honestly, I could care less. However I would assume by clear siddhis he meant perfect performance of the siddhi and by CC, turiyatita. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 8, 2006, at 2:19 PM, jim_flanegin wrote: Yep- that all makes sense. The one thing we should establish in this life is groundedness, centeredness, identification with the Self, the cosmos, Brahman. Just makes the rest of it manageable, and much more interesting. Otherwise we just as you say, tumble around with our minds closed, even to our selves! Life or death, get centered. That's exactly one of the points of my post, there is no center. You are truly beyond space and time. There are no reference points, no referentiality. Part of the terror of doing a retreat in total darkness--and in some parts of the Shank. trad. they do an 11 month dark retreat--is when you do come back to the body there's still no reference points. No inside or outside, the vase has shattered. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 8, 2006, at 4:29 PM, jim_flanegin wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 8, 2006, at 2:19 PM, jim_flanegin wrote: Yep- that all makes sense. The one thing we should establish in this life is groundedness, centeredness, identification with the Self, the cosmos, Brahman. Just makes the rest of it manageable, and much more interesting. Otherwise we just as you say, tumble around with our minds closed, even to our selves! Life or death, get centered. That's exactly one of the points of my post, there is no center. You are truly beyond space and time. There are no reference points, no referentiality. Part of the terror of doing a retreat in total darkness--and in some parts of the Shank. trad. they do an 11 month dark retreat--is when you do come back to the body there's still no reference points. No inside or outside, the vase has shattered. There is a perfect crystalline structure manifested of consciousness once the intellect is perfected. It is this structure, independent of any external reference points, including a body, which centers the Self. It is the singularity found at the intersection of past, future, and infinity. The terror you speak of above comes from not being established in this singularity, and being at the effect of an unstable mind. Good luck with that. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
on 4/8/06 4:39 PM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 8, 2006, at 4:29 PM, jim_flanegin wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: Good luck with that. your cynicism is underwhelming... Vaj, I consider you a friend and I respect your scholarship and experience, and can't match either, and I also respect and to some extent share your concerns about premature claims to enlightenment, but I have serious doubts about your apparent belief that regular folks like Jim, Dr. Pete, etc., can't possibly be experiencing the real thing, or are experiencing some very preliminary stage and mistaking it for something more advanced. Take your next vacation in Fairfield and sit in on two of our Wednesday night satsangs, and question some of the folks there to your heart's content. I think it'll shake up your beliefs a bit. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 8, 2006, at 6:08 PM, Rick Archer wrote: on 4/8/06 4:39 PM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 8, 2006, at 4:29 PM, jim_flanegin wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: Good luck with that. your cynicism is underwhelming... Vaj, I consider you a friend and I respect your scholarship and experience, and can't match either, and I also respect and to some extent share your concerns about premature claims to enlightenment, but I have serious doubts about your apparent belief that regular folks like Jim, Dr. Pete, etc., can't possibly be experiencing the real thing, or are experiencing some very preliminary stage and mistaking it for something more advanced. Well I can only comment on the contradictions they express here (or off list). Some of it's very nice, some is contradictory. Anything's possible. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
on 4/8/06 6:30 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vaj, I consider you a friend and I respect your scholarship and experience, and can't match either, and I also respect and to some extent share your concerns about premature claims to enlightenment, but I have serious doubts about your apparent belief that regular folks like Jim, Dr. Pete, etc., can't possibly be experiencing the real thing, or are experiencing some very preliminary stage and mistaking it for something more advanced. Well I can only comment on the contradictions they express here (or off list). Some of it's very nice, some is contradictory. Anything's possible. And all of it's contingent upon our flawed abilities to judge others' subjective states from their attempts to express the inexpressible in words. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
on 4/8/06 8:26 PM, anon_couscous_ff at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: based Take your next vacation in Fairfield and sit in on two of our Wednesday night satsangs, and question some of the folks there to your heart's content. I think it'll shake up your beliefs a bit. I thought Vaj had done that, at least listened in, He has listened in; never spoken himself. and found it heavy in group-think. I don't recall his commenting on his impression of the group. Thus why would sitting in on Satsangs prove to be world view shaking? I can only speak from my experience, which pertains to your following point as well, and that is that for me, the content of what is being discussed is secondary to the atmosphere that gets generated in the room. It's as profound as any darshan experience I've ever had. I've participated by phone a few times and it was perhaps 1/10th as effective. As far as I can tell, that atmosphere is getting generated by a group dynamics that has a lot to do with their being many people in the room in various stages of genuine awakening. Sitting in that atmosphere, allowing myself to settle inward, while keeping the intellect lively on what is being discussed, is a sort of a sanyama process which I find very potent. I feel profoundly shifted each time, and the effect lasts for days. Anyone can use any words. MMY used to laugh at the Book Cosmic Consciousness (Burke?) and say the samething, anyone can say anything, any words, it means nothing. The words may be valid, or they may be wishful thinking, peer-ifluenced testimonials, or more manifest fabrications to substantiate the myth of individuality. Who knows. And, to what extent does it matter? You may be right of course, but since, to my knowledge, you've never even phoned in, you're conjecturing. You don't know what we're talking about there. You only know a few of the people who attend from their participation here. It seems that all one really say from listening to experiences of another is some variation on the following themes i) yes, that sounds like what I have experienced, ii) that sounds odd, it does not describe my experience of that, but sounds more like wishful thinking based on current or classical lingo iii) the person does not exhibit the qualities that they say are characteristics of their state, or iv) I don't have any experience that corresponds to what is being described, it sounds resonable, maybe its a clear eperience and interpretation of such, maybe its not. I think I've cycled through all 4 of those in the satsangs, and still do. It's not important for me to ascertain with certainty how genuine each person's experience is, and how could I? Something good is happening, which shouldn't be surprising in a room of 35 people who have been diligently practicing sadhanas for decades. Vaj, I consider you a friend and I respect your scholarship and experience, and can't match either, and I also respect and to some extent share your concerns about premature claims to enlightenment, but I have serious doubts about your apparent belief that regular folks like Jim, Dr. Pete, etc., can't possibly be experiencing the real thing, Who is saying the eperiences can't possibly be real? If themes ii-iii apply, it may raise skepticism, or at least some legitimate questions. Why should quesions not be asked in those conditions (themes ii-iii). I don't think Vaj thinks they're not real. I think he feel that the profundity of these people's experience, coupled with inadequate guidance and understanding, cause them to mistake preliminary or intermediate stages of attainment for more advanced or final ones. He may be right. Or not. I'm not qualified to say, but I enjoy thinking about it. Your point sounds like the first verse of the longer, odd refrain sometimes sung here that you are saying the experiences can't possibly be real because you have never had any experiences and are bitter and jealous. Nope. Not saying that. I know Vaj has had and continues to have all sorts of wonderful and genuine experiences, far surpassing mine, I'd wager. Whew, thats always quite a blast of ego-twist and distortion -- either purposeful or simply from an unclear mind. First, I don't remember anyone here ever saying an experience can't possibly be real. He's not saying they're not real. Just that they may not be as advanced is the people think they are. Second, questions are valid if themes ii-iii apply. Third, the reasons questions are asked , or points of oddness cited, is precisely because they contradict personal experience -- in the case of theme ii. Yup. or are experiencing some very preliminary stage and mistaking it for something more advanced. Always a possibility. There are experiences and (mis)interpretations of experiences.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
Hi Anon: On Apr 8, 2006, at 9:26 PM, anon_couscous_ff wrote: It seems that all one really say from listening to experiences of another is some variation on the following themes i) yes, that sounds like what I have experienced, ii) that sounds odd, it does not describe my experience of that, but sounds more like wishful thinking based on current or classical lingo iii) the person does not exhibit the qualities that they say are characteristics of their state, or iv) I don't have any experience that corresponds to what is being described, it sounds resonable, maybe its a clear eperience and interpretation of such, maybe its not. My problem with satsang culture was that all the experiences they were describing, I was already experientially familiar with them. It's not something I would usually talk about. I was left with an overwhelming sense of disappointment to be perfectly honest. That's not to say the atmosphere was not warm and friendly--and the people quite nice--they were. For example, some of the experiences were clear experiences of emptiness--but the extrapolations and conclusions of what they thought it was was quite grandiose IMO. Again, that's just my opinion, but one informed by a lot of first hand interaction with teachers. This to me is an example of theme iii. Jim appears to imply that he has obtained a perfected intellect. (Perhaps not, perhaps he meant something other than this interpretation.) If its the former, it raises questions, in that a number of jim's posts, IMO, appear to be from someone not with a perfected intellect. Its fair grounds for questions, IMO. The issue I had--and why I did not want to go into a long explanation and then the following arguments--was that I was describing (in maybe not the best words or language) was something beyond mind, objects-- mental, translucent intellect, etc.--so a response that gave an answer before that clear light state, there was nothing constructive to add. You're either beyond location and time or not. The two have pretty distinctive landmarks. Once you've pierced the point so to speak, it's literally a different world. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 8, 2006, at 10:14 PM, Rick Archer wrote: I can only speak from my experience, which pertains to your following point as well, and that is that for me, the content of what is being discussed is secondary to the atmosphere that gets generated in the room. It's as profound as any darshan experience I've ever had. I've participated by phone a few times and it was perhaps 1/10th as effective. As far as I can tell, that atmosphere is getting generated by a group dynamics that has a lot to do with their being many people in the room in various stages of genuine awakening. Sitting in that atmosphere, allowing myself to settle inward, while keeping the intellect lively on what is being discussed, is a sort of a sanyama process which I find very potent. I feel profoundly shifted each time, and the effect lasts for days. Well I should point out that genuine non-dual darshan is really not limited by distance--or for that matter even time (as hard as that might be to believe). In fact I can tell you with one master I work with, some of the most profound transmissions I've received were live over a phone line. Bizarre but true. It truly is beyond limits. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 8, 2006, at 8:09 PM, Rick Archer wrote: on 4/8/06 6:30 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vaj, I consider you a friend and I respect your scholarship and experience, and can't match either, and I also respect and to some extent share your concerns about premature claims to enlightenment, but I have serious doubts about your apparent belief that regular folks like Jim, Dr. Pete, etc., can't possibly be experiencing the real thing, or are experiencing some very preliminary stage and mistaking it for something more advanced. Well I can only comment on the contradictions they express here (or off list). Some of it's very nice, some is contradictory. Anything's possible. And all of it's contingent upon our flawed abilities to judge others' subjective states from their attempts to express the inexpressible in words. Well partially. If you've spent a lot of time around non-dual, realized teachers who transmit that state by their very presence (and really we are all transmitting our own states, all of the time) you learn that presence. It's absolutely unmistakable. And of course long term meditators do develop not only intuition, but other psychic abilities as well. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
on 4/8/06 9:29 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 8, 2006, at 8:09 PM, Rick Archer wrote: on 4/8/06 6:30 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vaj, I consider you a friend and I respect your scholarship and experience, and can't match either, and I also respect and to some extent share your concerns about premature claims to enlightenment, but I have serious doubts about your apparent belief that regular folks like Jim, Dr. Pete, etc., can't possibly be experiencing the real thing, or are experiencing some very preliminary stage and mistaking it for something more advanced. Well I can only comment on the contradictions they express here (or off list). Some of it's very nice, some is contradictory. Anything's possible. And all of it's contingent upon our flawed abilities to judge others' subjective states from their attempts to express the inexpressible in words. Well partially. If you've spent a lot of time around non-dual, realized teachers who transmit that state by their very presence (and really we are all transmitting our own states, all of the time) you learn that presence. It's absolutely unmistakable. And of course long term meditators do develop not only intuition, but other psychic abilities as well. Sure, but I was referring to our ability to judge what state people like Jim Flanigan might be in based upon his posts in a chat group. That's not spending a lot of time around him. Also, a teacher has a special dharma and skill. He can transmit. It's part of his job description. Couldn't a non-teacher - someone with a different dharma - be in an equal state of attainment yet not be able to transmit or describe that to others very well? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 8, 2006, at 10:51 PM, anon_couscous_ff wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 8, 2006, at 10:14 PM, Rick Archer wrote: I can only speak from my experience, which pertains to your following point as well, and that is that for me, the content of what is being discussed is secondary to the atmosphere that gets generated in the room. It's as profound as any darshan experience I've ever had. I've participated by phone a few times and it was perhaps 1/10th as effective. As far as I can tell, that atmosphere is getting generated by a group dynamics that has a lot to do with their being many people in the room in various stages of genuine awakening. Sitting in that atmosphere, allowing myself to settle inward, while keeping the intellect lively on what is being discussed, is a sort of a sanyama process which I find very potent. I feel profoundly shifted each time, and the effect lasts for days. Well I should point out that genuine non-dual darshan is really not limited by distance--or for that matter even time (as hard as that might be to believe). In fact I can tell you with one master I work with, some of the most profound transmissions I've received were live over a phone line. Bizarre but true. It truly is beyond limits. Puja's an example. A most profound darshan. The Holy Tradition puja? Indeed...really a form of guru-yoga IMMO. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
On Apr 8, 2006, at 10:40 PM, Rick Archer wrote: on 4/8/06 9:29 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 8, 2006, at 8:09 PM, Rick Archer wrote: on 4/8/06 6:30 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vaj, I consider you a friend and I respect your scholarship and experience, and can't match either, and I also respect and to some extent share your concerns about premature claims to enlightenment, but I have serious doubts about your apparent belief that regular folks like Jim, Dr. Pete, etc., can't possibly be experiencing the real thing, or are experiencing some very preliminary stage and mistaking it for something more advanced. Well I can only comment on the contradictions they express here (or off list). Some of it's very nice, some is contradictory. Anything's possible. And all of it's contingent upon our flawed abilities to judge others' subjective states from their attempts to express the inexpressible in words. Well partially. If you've spent a lot of time around non-dual, realized teachers who transmit that state by their very presence (and really we are all transmitting our own states, all of the time) you learn that presence. It's absolutely unmistakable. And of course long term meditators do develop not only intuition, but other psychic abilities as well. Sure, but I was referring to our ability to judge what state people like Jim Flanigan might be in based upon his posts in a chat group. That's not spending a lot of time around him. Also, a teacher has a special dharma and skill. He can transmit. It's part of his job description. Couldn't a non-teacher - someone with a different dharma - be in an equal state of attainment yet not be able to transmit or describe that to others very well? *Anything's* possible. Certain things are more probable. We are all transmitting our states, all of the time. Is it possible that someone authentically residing in the non-dual state could not *consciously* transmit their state to others? Sure. But not very probable IMO. Since we all transmit our states all the time, it's not necessary--esp. if the listener knows how to rest in that state himself. And there's the rub. Like *is* attracted to like. Failing all that, each darshana does have it's own internal logic to it. Ever watched a bunch of Gelukpa monks--who spend a lot of their time experientially investigating consciousness--debate? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
on 4/8/06 9:46 PM, anon_couscous_ff at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But all this vers from my main point: why the prohibition and extreme reactions to simply asking questions about eperiences. By whom? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
on 4/8/06 9:57 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Failing all that, each darshana does have it's own internal logic to it. Ever watched a bunch of Gelukpa monks--who spend a lot of their time experientially investigating consciousness--debate? Not lately. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: so called 'death'
on 4/8/06 10:11 PM, anon_couscous_ff at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Holy Tradition puja? Indeed...really a form of guru-yoga IMMO. Yes, thats the example I was referring to. But upon reflection, various pujas and homas also create a strong darshan atmosphere. Many people and situations can do it. Whatever generates subtle energy. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
