On Apr 17, 2005, at 6:35 PM, John Howell wrote:
At 3:28 PM -0400 4/16/05, Andrew Stiller wrote:
Certainly. But Rachmaninoff's use of the convention was by then no
more traditional than Hindemith's use of the viola d'amore.
Hindemith directed the Yale Collegium Musicum, and was a
On Apr 17, 2005, at 6:28 PM, John Howell wrote:
Andrew is quite right, but other instruments whose normal range
crosses between the treble and bass clefs solve the problem through
transposed parts.
This is true in many cases but by no means all. Piano. Organ. Or if you
think grand-staff
On Apr 18, 2005, at 2:42 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
if I find anything in the manuscript that is notationally unclear, or
looks like a mistake, or represents nonstandard practice, I will ask
about it.
That's precisely my point: you ask about it. You don't go off on your
own and make a
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:36:26 -0400, Andrew Stiller
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Apr 18, 2005, at 2:42 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
if I find anything in the manuscript that is notationally unclear, or
looks like a mistake, or represents nonstandard practice, I will ask
about it.
That's
On 19 Apr 2005 at 12:32, Andrew Stiller wrote:
I might point out as well that the range of the trombone is exactly
the same as that of the horn, yet it is entirely possible, and
commonplace, to notate its full range w.o resort to either a
transposition or any C clef, much less the alto clef
On Apr 17, 2005, at 4:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 17 Apr 2005 at 11:43, Andrew Stiller wrote:
With a concert-pitch score, the copyist will need to exercise more
initiative than usual in deciding clef change issues, because quite
obviously instruments with big transpositions will have parts
At 3:26 PM -0400 4/16/05, Andrew Stiller wrote:
I could counter with a long list of instruments whose effective
ranges do precisely that, yet do not use (and in most cases never
have used) the alto clef. But I think it will be more, um, effective
simply to point out that the only modern
At 3:28 PM -0400 4/16/05, Andrew Stiller wrote:
Certainly. But Rachmaninoff's use of the convention was by then no
more traditional than Hindemith's use of the viola d'amore.
Hindemith directed the Yale Collegium Musicum, and was
a violist. Why would he not be interested in viola
At 6:20 PM -0400 4/16/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 16/04/2005 14:19:15 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
first, the students you cite are taking
private lessons, which the vast majority of middle and high school
instrumentalists do not.
No - I teach in high schools,
At 4/17/2005 10:31 PM, John Howell wrote:
Our only inheritance from the treble-clef brass band system is the
duplicate parts for treble clef (Bb-transposed) and bass clef
(concert pitch) baritone/euphonium parts, both of which are still
required in band arrangements. And I believe the
On 18 Apr 2005, at 11:13 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
While it is perfectly true that the line between copyist and engraver
has vanished, I don't see how that affects my analysis. If I am a
copyist/engraver, and a composer hands me an MS to engrave and extract
parts from, my job (unless
A subtle distinction needs to be drawn here. My objection is not as a
bassoonist, but as a composer. As a bassoonist, I have no beef w. the
clef at all--but as a composer, I find it an unnecessary complication of
the notational system.
Andrew,
Your point has been clearly made, and as a
RegoR wrote:
A subtle distinction needs to be drawn here. My objection is not as a
bassoonist, but as a composer. As a bassoonist, I have no beef w. the
clef at all--but as a composer, I find it an unnecessary complication
of the notational system.
Andrew,
Your point has been clearly made,
On Apr 17, 2005, at 5:59 AM, RegoR wrote:
...as an instrumentalist, do you feel that it then becomes the duty of
the copyist to satisify the needs of the performer and engrave the
music using the clefs that are more comfortable for a performer to
use?
In my experience, the vast majority of
On 17 Apr 2005 at 11:43, Andrew Stiller wrote:
With a concert-pitch score, the copyist will need to exercise more
initiative than usual in deciding clef change issues, because quite
obviously instruments with big transpositions will have parts that lie
entirely differently on the staff in the
On Apr 17, 2005, at 4:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 17 Apr 2005 at 11:43, Andrew Stiller wrote:
With a concert-pitch score, the copyist will need to exercise more
initiative than usual in deciding clef change issues, because quite
obviously instruments with big transpositions will have parts
In a message dated 16/04/2005 05:32:48 GMT Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Eg. Name a horn player who can't read all clefs and
transpose on sight from one tonality to
another.
I can't read all clefs fluently nor do I know anyone who can, for the
same reason that violinists
In a message dated 16/04/2005 08:56:22 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
A lot of musicians (at least over here) do precisely the opposite: they
transpose by mentally changing the clef.
Vive la difference!
All the best,
Lawrence
þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg
Carl Dershem wrote:
[snip]
True enough. But if you look at trombonists as a whole, the vast
majority *are* jazz/commercial players, and the extraordinary majority
of them either come from jazz band/concert band settings (where bass and
treble clef are in extreme majority) or from similar
Somebody wrote:
No concert band player, no jazz player, and no orchestral player below
college level will ever see tenor clef, and will stop dead and refuse
to attempt reading it.
Will you people stop making generalizations which just show how ignorant
you really are outside of your little
I teach my tormbone pupils to read treble, tenor and bass clefs.
I expect them to be comfortable in all three by the time they leave me at
16 years old.
All the best,
Lawrence
"þaes
ofereode - þisses swa
maeg"http://lawrenceyates.co.uk
___
At 8:39 AM -0400 4/16/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I teach my tormbone pupils to read treble, tenor and bass clefs.
I expect them to be comfortable in all three by the time they leave
me at 16 years old.
Good for you! Both you and David Bailey point out the major
difference in background:
On Apr 16, 2005, at 9:18 AM, John Howell wrote:
But exceptions, no matter how individually brilliant and satisfactory,
only emphasize the average. And the average, who only play in band
and do not take lessons, will very seldom see the alternate clefs
traditionally used by conservatory-trained
d. collins wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] écrit:
I can however transpose all keys at sight and without problem. In
order to read the different clefs (something which I have never been
called to do in 30 years playing) I would do it by relating it to a
transposition.
A lot of musicians (at least over
dhbailey wrote:
Carl Dershem wrote:
True enough. But if you look at trombonists as a whole, the vast
majority *are* jazz/commercial players, and the extraordinary majority
of them either come from jazz band/concert band settings (where bass
and treble clef are in extreme majority) or from
Carl Dershem wrote:
dhbailey wrote:
Carl Dershem wrote:
True enough. But if you look at trombonists as a whole, the vast
majority *are* jazz/commercial players, and the extraordinary
majority of them either come from jazz band/concert band settings
(where bass and treble clef are in extreme
On Apr 15, 2005, at 2:10 PM, Michael Cook wrote:
Andrew, can you tell me what edition of Brahms 4 you have and where
the 1st bassoon part is written with ledger lines below the tenor
clef?
Kalmus. The bn1 part dips below the tenor staff (just barely--no ledger
lines) in the slow mvt., m.
On Apr 15, 2005, at 2:43 PM, RegoR wrote:
As another bassoonist on the list, and contrary to Andrew, I have no
dislikes as to music written in the tenor clef.
A subtle distinction needs to be drawn here. My objection is not as a
bassoonist, but as a composer. As a bassoonist, I have no beef w.
On Apr 15, 2005, at 3:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 15 Apr 2005 at 10:12, Andrew Stiller wrote:
The 8bassa notation hasn't been traditional for a century and a half.
The cello arrangement of the Rachmaninoff Vocalise uses it, and that
was unquestionably published less than 150 years ago, since
dhbailey wrote:
Carl Dershem wrote:
dhbailey wrote:
Carl Dershem wrote:
True enough. But if you look at trombonists as a whole, the vast
majority *are* jazz/commercial players, and the extraordinary
majority of them either come from jazz band/concert band settings
(where bass and treble clef
On 16 Apr 2005 at 15:28, Andrew Stiller wrote:
On Apr 15, 2005, at 3:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 15 Apr 2005 at 10:12, Andrew Stiller wrote:
The 8bassa notation hasn't been traditional for a century and a
half.
The cello arrangement of the Rachmaninoff Vocalise uses it, and
In a message dated 16/04/2005 14:19:15 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
first, the students you cite are taking
private lessons, which the vast majority of middle and high school
instrumentalists do not.
No - I teach in high schools, not private lessons.
We used to run an
On 14 avr. 05, at 22:57, Darcy James Argue wrote:
Lots of violin and viola passages are almost entirely above the staff.
I don't have that Beethoven Sonata in front of me, but so long as it
does not go above an A4 (i.e., three ledger lines in bass clef), my
own instinct would be to leave it in
On Apr 14, 2005, at 3:24 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
While I'm not a cellist, I personally don't see much point in using
tenor clef very often in cello parts, since, as you say, bass clef is
fine up to around G4 -- at which point, why switch to tenor clef when
you're already up in the middle
On Apr 14, 2005, at 3:51 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
Are you talking about [cello] treble clef at pitch or treble 8bassa,
the
traditional notation?
The 8bassa notation hasn't been traditional for a century and a half.
Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/
On Apr 14, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Michael Cook wrote:
A basic rule to follow for cello parts is to avoid ledger lines
_below_ the staff in treble and tenor clefs: notes below the staff
look like low notes and cellists tend to automatically move to the
C-string when they see them.
I'm not at all sure
On Apr 14, 2005, at 5:48 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
8vb treble clef notation for cello is no longer used.
You mean, in modern editions.
No, he means in modern (and late Romantic) *compositions.*
Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/
On 15 Apr 2005, at 10:06 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
On Apr 14, 2005, at 3:24 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
While I'm not a cellist, I personally don't see much point in using
tenor clef very often in cello parts, since, as you say, bass clef is
fine up to around G4 -- at which point, why switch
On Apr 15, 2005, at 11:21 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
On 15 Apr 2005, at 10:06 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
As a bassoonist and composer, I never, ever, write the tenor clef,
though of course I can read it fluently. Any professional bassoonist,
cellist, or trombonist will know how to read the
At 4/15/2005 11:46 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:
Well, this isn't a howl of outrage, but I find the tenor clef useful.
If a part on bassoon, cello, or trombone sits consistently in a range
where large numbers of ledger lines can be avoided in bass clef, I
would use it.
Notice: I only know about
I'm not saying that it's a hard and fast rule to avoid ledger lines
below the staff in treble and tenor clefs in cello parts, just a basic
rule: of course there are exceptions, as in examples such as the one
Andrew gives. Of course it's better to put in a ledger line from time
to time instead
I find that much easier to read, than, say, 8va basso. I would get
totally lost in such a situation.
So, I am wondering if this is also true of those above mentioned
instrumentalists.
As another bassoonist on the list, and contrary to Andrew, I have no
dislikes as to music written in the
At 11:21 AM -0400 4/15/05, Darcy James Argue wrote:
On 15 Apr 2005, at 10:06 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
As a bassoonist and composer, I never, ever, write the tenor clef,
though of course I can read it fluently. Any professional
bassoonist, cellist, or trombonist will know how to read the treble
At 8:10 PM +0200 4/15/05, Michael Cook wrote:
As to the idea of getting rid of tenor clef, try talking to a few
cellists and see what they say. I find that it fits perfectly to a
typical solo cello range where you basically stay most of the time
up on the A-string, occasionally rocking over to
On 15 Apr 2005 at 10:06, Andrew Stiller wrote:
In my youth, I tried to get rid of the alto clef too, but the violists
weren't having any...
I would say that this was a ridiculously stupid campaign on your
part. The alto clef is completely essential to writing for
instruments whose effective
On 15 Apr 2005 at 10:12, Andrew Stiller wrote:
On Apr 14, 2005, at 3:51 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
Are you talking about [cello] treble clef at pitch or treble 8bassa,
the traditional notation?
The 8bassa notation hasn't been traditional for a century and a half.
The cello arrangement
On Apr 15, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote:
I've been playing trombone professionally for nearly 20 years, and
have run across 2 incidences of C-clef in all that time, both of them
in college. (Comfortable with up to 5 leger lines up, and 4 down in
bass clef - all a matter of practice -
On 15 Apr 2005 at 17:50, Christopher Smith wrote:
On Apr 15, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote:
How many rock bands can read at all, much less in the more arcane
clefs and keys? The very use of C-Clefs (generally only tenor and
alto, any more) is becoming more and more of an academic
Christopher Smith wrote:
On Apr 15, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote:
I've been playing trombone professionally for nearly 20 years, and
have run across 2 incidences of C-clef in all that time, both of them
in college. (Comfortable with up to 5 leger lines up, and 4 down in
bass clef -
David W. Fenton wrote:
On 15 Apr 2005 at 17:50, Christopher Smith wrote:
On Apr 15, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote:
How many rock bands can read at all, much less in the more arcane
clefs and keys? The very use of C-Clefs (generally only tenor and
alto, any more) is becoming more and more
At 12:40 PM -0700 4/15/05, Carl Dershem wrote:
John Howell wrote:
No howls, just a bit of history. The original reason for using
movable clefs was to keep the music within the staff so the scribe
wouldn't have to turn his pen sideways for the ledger lines.
That's exactly how the
John Howell wrote:
No concert band player, no jazz
player, and no orchestral player below college level will ever see tenor
clef, and will stop dead and refuse to attempt reading it.
This is, perhaps, our one disagreement. Were I to find an area where I
would find reading it useful, I'd do so.
For instruments that are pitched so that they are most comfortable
(viola and such), C-clefs are still useful, but they are uncommon, and
becoming increasingly so with the vast majority of the music field
getting more and more simplified.
Ouch, this sounds like exactly what the world is
off the top of my head, a survey of literature shows:
VC: use of bass clef up to isolated G's and A's (A played as a
harmonic is usually notated in bass clef), around which point the
tenor is used (especially if more than three or four notes warrant
its use); treble clef as soon as it hits even
Hey Jef,
Thanks -- the cello question is actually more interesting to me. While
I'm not a cellist, I personally don't see much point in using tenor
clef very often in cello parts, since, as you say, bass clef is fine up
to around G4 -- at which point, why switch to tenor clef when you're
On 14 Apr 2005 at 15:24, Darcy James Argue wrote:
Thanks -- the cello question is actually more interesting to me.
While I'm not a cellist, I personally don't see much point in using
tenor clef very often in cello parts, since, as you say, bass clef is
fine up to around G4 -- at which point,
And there was one other thing I wanted to say in my last post and
forgot:
The higher clef tends to suggest to a player a soloistic role. This
is obviously not a necessity, but in instruments that mostly play in
the bass clef (cello, gamba), a move to a different clef often
represents a
On 14 Apr 2005, at 4:41 PM, Michael Cook wrote:
I'm looking at the Scherzo of Beethoven's 3rd Sonata for Cello and
Piano (an old Peters edition). Measures 33 to 75 are all in tenor
clef. If they were in bass clef the passage would look weirdly high:
almost the whole passage would be above the
On 14 Apr 2005, at 3:51 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 14 Apr 2005 at 15:24, Darcy James Argue wrote:
Thanks -- the cello question is actually more interesting to me.
While I'm not a cellist, I personally don't see much point in using
tenor clef very often in cello parts, since, as you say, bass
At 3:51 PM -0400 4/14/05, David W. Fenton wrote:
Are you talking about treble clef at pitch or treble 8bassa, the
traditional notation?
Thank you, David. That's exactly the problem with using treble for
cello. There are historical precedents for two different practices,
as there are, as well,
On 14 Apr 2005 at 16:59, Darcy James Argue wrote:
On 14 Apr 2005, at 3:51 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 14 Apr 2005 at 15:24, Darcy James Argue wrote:
Thanks -- the cello question is actually more interesting to me.
While I'm not a cellist, I personally don't see much point in using
On 14 Apr 2005, at 5:48 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 14 Apr 2005 at 16:59, Darcy James Argue wrote:
8vb treble clef notation for cello is no longer used.
You mean, in modern editions.
Well yeah -- I was talking about music written by me.
- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY
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