Re: [Finale] Finale 25 Octaves

Actually, I wrote my suggestion immediately after your query posted - but for some reason, it was held up in moderation for - well, nearly a full day! Ah well. Glad the problem was resolved, Lawrence. And now: THIS response will probably be posted...in a day or two !! Best wishes - Les

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 Octaves

Thank you, it's sorted now I think - it was, as several have suggested, the default "instrument ranges" that needed to be unchecked. Thanks, Lawrence On 10 April 2017 at 21:25, Chuck Israels wrote: > Hi Lawrence, > > This probably has something to do with the way the new

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 Octaves

Lawrence - Does this occur when you cut/paste passages from one instrument to another? As I recall, Fin25 came with “respect instrument ranges when copying or...” CHECKED.If that IS your problem, go to “Edit,” pull up “Preferences” and then “Edit” – and uncheck that box. Best - Les

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 Octaves

Hi Lawrence, This probably has something to do with the way the new Finale handles note entry at concert pitch instead of transposed pitch. For instance, bass violin notes now enter at their real pitches but get written an octave higher. Kind of confusing, but there are ways to set

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 Octaves

Thanks! I would never have thought of that! Cheers, Lawrence On 10 April 2017 at 21:55, Darcy James Argue wrote: > Turn off “Respect Instrument Ranges When Copying or Changing Instruments” > in Preferences > Edit, and write a sternly-worded email to MakeMusic asking >

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 Octaves

Turn off “Respect Instrument Ranges When Copying or Changing Instruments” in Preferences > Edit, and write a sternly-worded email to MakeMusic asking them why on Earth they ever decided to make this box checked by default. Cheers, — DJA - http://secretsocietymusic.org > On Apr 10, 2017,

Re: [Finale] finale 25

I've now completely reinstalled Finale and everything seems to be working now BUT - on playback some of the instruments (descant recorder for example) seem unaffected by the volume controls in the mixer. This makes a bit of a mess of any playback files using these instruments. Has anyone else

Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem

spent quite a while trying to help me get to the bottom of the problem. Michael -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Withers Sent: 09 February 2017 19:01 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window

Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem

Great idea. Just tried it and it makes no difference unfortunately. Michael -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Patterson Sent: 09 February 2017 17:06 To: finale Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem

Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem

.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf > Of Robert Patterson > Sent: 09 February 2017 15:20 > To: finale > Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem > > If you want to send me a copy of the problem file privately, I'll be glad > to see what I can see abou

Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem

[mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Patterson Sent: 09 February 2017 15:20 To: finale Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem If you want to send me a copy of the problem file privately, I'll be glad to see what I can see about it. On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 9:14 AM

Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem

du [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf > Of Robert Patterson > Sent: 09 February 2017 13:50 > To: finale > Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem > > I've seen this problem, or similar, in Fin 25. Whatever causes the lyrics > disappear seems random, but usu

Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem

Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Patterson Sent: 09 February 2017 13:50 To: finale Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem I've seen this problem, or similar, in Fin 25. Whatever causes the lyrics disappear seems random

Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem

> > Michael Withers > > -Original Message- > From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf > Of John Roberts > Sent: 09 February 2017 03:14 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem > > You beat

Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem

...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of John Roberts Sent: 09 February 2017 03:14 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem You beat me to it, Christopher! I found this page not too long ago, and use it all the time. Very useful. JR > On Feb 8, 2017, at 7:14 PM, Christopher Sm

Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem

To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem Hi Michael, I rarely get problems like this, though I’ve heard of them. Often, hitting Undo restores the lyrics when they disappear, I’ve been told. My contribution is to provide you with this website, which offers automatic

Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem

You beat me to it, Christopher! I found this page not too long ago, and use it all the time. Very useful. JR > On Feb 8, 2017, at 7:14 PM, Christopher Smith > wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > I rarely get problems like this, though I’ve heard of them. Often,

Re: [Finale] Finale 25: Lyrics window problem

Hi Michael, I rarely get problems like this, though I’ve heard of them. Often, hitting Undo restores the lyrics when they disappear, I’ve been told. My contribution is to provide you with this website, which offers automatic hyphenation in English. Copy your lyrics into this window, hit the

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 System Requirements

Thank you Eric and Steve, I’ll go for the upgrade. Giovanni Giovanni Andreani www.giovanniandreani.com www.ga-music.com www.twitter.com/MrAvenarius > On 9 Dec 2016, at 15:11, Steve Parker wrote: > > Runs fine on my 2010 white MacBook with Sierra. > >

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 System Requirements

Runs fine on my 2010 white MacBook with Sierra. Steve P. > On 9 Dec 2016, at 13:38, Jazz-sax wrote: > > It will run fine. The biggest thing is that you need to have 10.10 as a > starting point. > > Sent from my iSomething > -- > Eric Dannewitz > Musician/Polymath/Evil

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 System Requirements

It will run fine. The biggest thing is that you need to have 10.10 as a starting point. Sent from my iSomething -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath/Evil Genius http://www.ericdannewitz.com > On Dec 9, 2016, at 2:52 AM, Giovanni Andreani > wrote: > > I've checked

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

Indeed. Coming from 2012 Finale it would be a huge improvement. > On Nov 28, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Robert Patterson > wrote: > > There are some quite useful changes since Fin12. For me, the most important > is beat-attached smart shapes. This is quite a significant

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

There are some quite useful changes since Fin12. For me, the most important is beat-attached smart shapes. This is quite a significant improvement if you use linked parts. There is also a key bug fix since Fin12 that is important if you use plugins in part view. I think there is more, but I can't

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

"But even so, feature-wise there is virtually no difference between 14.5 and 25." Robert Hardly seems worth it even for $99...especially when I'm quite happy with 2012. Love Mike G. www.mikegreensill.com cell - 707 235 5107 home - 707 967 9491 On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Robert

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

The TGTools Mac 64-bit beta is definitely better than the TGTools Mac beta for Fin14.5. My experience is that human playback is MUCH faster to start in 25 than 14.5. I haven't seen the crash on exit. But even so, feature-wise there is virtually no difference between 14.5 and 25. The main one I

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

I noticed it was faster than 2014.5 and that TGTools 64 bit seemed to work better. > On Nov 28, 2016, at 2:38 PM, Steve Parker wrote: > > >> The time signature dialogue can finally be clicked again, rather than >> dragged (as in versions up to 2014), but the key

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

> The time signature dialogue can finally be clicked again, rather than dragged > (as in versions up to 2014), but the key signature dialogue (which was fine) > can now not be clicked and has to be dragged. Further to this, the key sig box does have clickable arrows, but not when setting up

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 upgrade

At 3:20 PM -0500 28/11/16, David H. Bailey wrote: >If I had upgraded for the initial "deal" of $149 I would be very very >angry with them for making this $99 offer. Me too. >I did not fall for it back when it was first announced, and I'm not >going to fall for it this time around either. Well I

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 upgrade

On 11/28/2016 2:43 PM, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: > jef - > > Phenomenal response. Thank you greatly. > > And FWIW, I’m right there on that knife-edge with you, and will also probably > snag the “upgrade” today. > > I hate to reward the beast by feeding it when it’s done nothing to

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 upgrade

:06 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 25 upgrade that could be because there doesn't seem to be one. the discussion back in august was -- in my interpretation -- more about resignation than joy. a speed issue on mac has been fixed. so the loss of speed experienced witth

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 upgrade

Thanks, jef. Much appreciated. Dean -- Dean Rosenthal www.deanrosenthal.org www.stonespiece.com > On Nov 28, 2016, at 5:06 AM, SN jef chippewa > wrote: > > > that could be because there doesn't seem to be one. the discussion back in > august was -- in my

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 upgrade

that could be because there doesn't seem to be one. the discussion back in august was -- in my interpretation -- more about resignation than joy. a speed issue on mac has been fixed. so the loss of speed experienced witth F2014 has been fixed. it is now as fast as F2012. and we should

Re: [Finale] FINALE 25 Surface Pro 4 losing authorization

I get this too. I submitted a support request and am waiting. I have a Dell, though, not a surface pro. I do have win10. I ran my as administrator. still get the problem. Justin Phillips wrote: > Have you ran Finale as an administrator (right-click the app

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 upgrade

ended by disability): http://tinyurl.com/ygpj7og Mariposa Symphony Orchestra: http://tinyurl.com/MariposaSO From: cr...@parmerlee.com Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2016 8:29 PM To: wit...@nctv.com ; finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 25 upgrade I use V25 routinely

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 upgrade

I use V25 routinely with Win10 and things run smoothly. I wish they had not removed the BIAB plug in. That is the only reason I go back. And the file formats are compatible so there is no hassle with switching between 2014.5 and 25. -- Original message--From: John

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 upgrade

Sorry, I’m on a Mac. There are too many issues in the Mac version for me to use it right now. I have it installed, but use 2014.5 until I get some bugs fixed. The Windows version might be in better shape. Christopher > On Nov 26, 2016, at 4:39 PM, John Witmer wrote: > >

Re: [Finale] FINALE 25 Surface Pro 4 losing authorization

Have you ran Finale as an administrator (right-click the app icon and select "Run as Administrator")? --- Justin Phillips justinwphill...@gmail.com > On Nov 26, 2016, at 12:52 PM, Howey, Henry wrote: > > Has anyone else seen this? This is now the fourth time it has happened.

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 printing in El Capitan

The first thing I’d check is the setting in the print dialogue for printing only odd or even pages. Probably you too, but it’s worth a mention. Dick H OlyWa > On Nov 7, 2016, at 4:06 AM, Jim Fischer wrote: > > I was printing multiple pages to my Brother Laser printer. >

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 printing in El Capitan

Make sure you are up on all the system updates. There were some printer updates that dropped about 3 weeks ago that included brother printers Sent from my iSomething -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath/Evil Genius http://www.ericdannewitz.com > On Nov 7, 2016, at 4:06 AM, Jim Fischer

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 Issue

There is no issue with printing. The print dialog was reworked and has major usuability issues, but the printing itself is fine. On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 9:46 AM, Neal Gittleman wrote: > Greetings… > > I was on vacation when v25 came out and followed some but not all of the >

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

Hi Jan The Jari's plugin "JW Copy Part Layout" does not work on Finale.v25. Only two plugins have been adapted to 64bits JW accidentals and JW Staff polyphony. And they work well with Finale v25 Jean-Paul Gilles [1]www.2mceditions.com Le 24/08/2016 à 17:11, Jan

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

yes I have - I was more referring to copying layouts (note spacing mainly) within one part but will try Robert’s plugin. If it works as advertised - what will I do with all my spare time??!! Thomas On Aug 24, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Jan Angermüller wrote: > Have you tried

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

Have you tried the "JW Copy Part Layout" plugin for copying layout things between linked parts ? http://www.finaletips.nu/index.php/download/category/9-plug-ins-for-windows Jan Am 24.08.2016 um 15:45 schrieb Thomas Schaller: > Robert, > deal breaker for me regarding linked parts is that you

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

alright - I’ll give it a try. Thanks! Thomas On Aug 24, 2016, at 9:30 AM, Robert Patterson wrote: > Thomas, > > I address both of those issues with plugins. Copying slur shapes is trivial > with my Mass Copy plugin (both in score and parts). As for spacing, I >

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

Thomas, I address both of those issues with plugins. Copying slur shapes is trivial with my Mass Copy plugin (both in score and parts). As for spacing, I almost never manually modify spacing any more now that I have the Note Spacing plugin (part of my plugin suite as well). Probably the number

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

Robert, deal breaker for me regarding linked parts is that you cannot copy certain things from measure to measure in linked parts. For instance, I often fine tune measure layouts in parts and if I have a part that repeats measures that individual edit cannot be copied to other measures -

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

I don't think 2012 is faster than 25. It may be roughly comparable. Where 25 really blows away the earlier versions is in starting up human playback. I also wouldn't let the print dialog issues stop you from upgrading. Though the issues are annoying and glaring, there are workarounds. The actual

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

There are complaints in every version. The question is whether you can live with them. If 2012 works for you (it won’t install on my new Mac) it apparently is quicker than 2014, 2014.5 or v. 25, so you could stick with it. The files can be shared with other users of newer versions, and they can

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

Hi Martin, I would definitely recommend you to upgrade to the new version. 64-bit support and faster playback are extremely important for a good and fast workflow. If you only do some minor things with Finale, sticking with Finale 2012 might be ok, but I think, if you work professionally and

Re: [Finale] Finale 25- Mr Serling has left the building

I will never understand what was going on Thursday afternoon, but when I attempted to post this bizarre behavior to the Makemusic tech people, and was trying to find an example in old and new versions of the file in order that they could tell the difference, the old version was no longer showing

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

To answer my own question, yes Finale 25 still has the export to 2012 function. This is a good thing, at least for me , because this large file I am working on is still rather slow in the new version, though decidedly faster than 2014.5. Windows 10, by the way. Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger

Re: [Finale] Finale 25- okay, but I don't know what's going on.

PUT A HOLD ON THIS. IT SEEMS TO BE WORKING OK RIGHT NOW. Maybe it needed a few hours to itself. I'll check it again Friday. We both need some rest. ​Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra,

Re: [Finale] Finale 25- okay, but I don't know what's going on.

This is Twilight Zone stuff, folks. I have installed Finale for windows 25, seems to come up just fine. The first thing I try is the lengthy file I earlier reported having trouble with in 2012 and 2014 .5. But, when I go to the folder and which I keep both the mus and musx versions of this file,

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 - What's removed?

I have not tried upgrading files that use the Mirror Tool, but my guess is that all the mirrors are converted to copies. On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 7:16 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote: > Am 17.08.16 um 04:14 schrieb Craig Parmerlee: > > * Mirror tool (i.e. ie no more

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 - What's removed?

Well, I had a look, but I can't really see how this would help me. Please enlighten me... Best, Johannes Am 18.08.16 um 14:51 schrieb Dr. Raphael D. Thöne: > Hi Johannes > > I would suggest that you visit finaletips.nu and download all > available Jari Plugins, as soon as they have been

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 - What's removed?

Hi Johannes I would suggest that you visit finaletips.nu and download all available Jari Plugins, as soon as they have been converted to 64-bit. I am pretty sure that you find a comparable (and faster) tool in one of the Change Plugins. Best Raphael. > Am 18.08.2016 um 14:16 schrieb Johannes

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 - What's removed?

Am 17.08.16 um 04:14 schrieb Craig Parmerlee: > * Mirror tool (i.e. ie no more mirrored measures) So what happens with files that use the Mirror Tool? I used to use the Mirror tool quite a bit, and found it very useful. the typical situation would be a baroque piece, where 1st and 2nd violins

Re: [Finale] Finale 25--Plug-ins

Patterson Plugins for Finale 25 are now available at the website. http://robertgpatterson.com/-fininfo/finmain.html On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Raymond Horton wrote: > Already Windows 10, so no problem there. I am convinced by this review, I > am buying!!! > >

Re: [Finale] Finale 25--Plug-ins

Already Windows 10, so no problem there. I am convinced by this review, I am buying!!! Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016 On Aug 17, 2016 10:49 AM, "Eric Dannewitz"

Re: [Finale] Finale 25--Plug-ins

True, though you are being "high suggested" to move to Windows 10 and then there is the whole Windows thing with dealing with viruses and security issues.. Sometimes it's better to be in a park than to look at it through a window Sent from my iSomething -- > On Aug 17, 2016, at 7:43 AM,

Re: [Finale] Finale 25--Plug-ins

Thanks. ( I am a Windows guy, so I don't need to own any national parks before running!) Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016 On Aug 17, 2016 10:41 AM, "Christopher Smith" <

Re: [Finale] Finale 25--Plug-ins

Here’s a review. Click on Robert Puff’s link at the bottom of this review, too. One of them ran speed tests, and Finale v. 25 is almost, but not quite, as fast as 2012 in most things, but faster than 2014.5 in almost everything. But then, you need Yosemite at least to run Finale v. 25.

Re: [Finale] Finale 25--Plug-ins

There is a very helpful report. Would you be interested in running a couple of speed tests, with a file I send you? Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016 On Aug 17, 2016 10:24 AM,

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 - What's removed?

Yes, I believe I could keep 2014.5 installed and do the auto-harmonizing there. But that begs the question what would be my motivation to go to V25 if I have to bounce between apps. In your case, this 64-bit version *MAY* resolve the speed problems you have been having on large scores. If

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 - What's removed?

Could you do the auto harmonizing in an older version and then import it? Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016 On Aug 16, 2016 10:14 PM, "Craig Parmerlee"

Re: [Finale] Finale 25 - What's removed?

I just stumbled across this article that was put out about 3 weeks ago. it seems to say these items are removed from the new version: * Band-in-a-box auto harmonizing * Mirror tool (i.e. ie no more mirrored measures) * Tempo tool * Music scanning This sounds like a net DOWN-grade to me. I

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

Well, if it is any consolation, the content of V25 is not going to draw a lot of people to crossgrade. It isn't as if a person wavering about the switch would say "Wow, a didgeridoo? I guess I had better make the switch." On 8/16/2016 6:55 PM, David H. Bailey wrote: > What really hurts

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

i'm not talking about his music because this is a notation software list :-) i simply don't think weird all is a notational reference for any milieu, not just if they are trying to prove (as seems to be an important concern in their marketing) that FIN is THAT much better than SIB. >Though

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

Though Weird Al’s what, almost 40 year career means nothing? I think it’s fine if he is used in their marketing. It would be better if someone from say Hans Zimmerman’s or John Williams scoring/music production team was the quote…..but I don’t think Weird Al is the level of T-Shirt and Water

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

On 8/16/2016 3:00 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: > On Tue, August 16, 2016 2:57 pm, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: >> Well. Isn’t THIS not exciting... > >> http://www.finalemusic.com/products/finale/whats-new/?utm_source=responsys_medium=email_campaign=25release_content=upgrade > > > I had

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

The demo still has 2012 backwards export ability. On Tuesday, August 16, 2016, Raymond Horton wrote: > I don't suppose there is .Mus file capability? > > Raymond Horton > Composer, Arranger > Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church > Retired Bass

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

well i for one would cough up my hard-earned money for a finale upgrade just knowing that Weird Al Yankovic is the standard reference for what a notation software is capable of! congrats finale for bringing yourself out of the ®Finale Water Bottle and ®Finale T-Shirt era! "Finale gives me

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

I don't suppose there is .Mus file capability? Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016 On Aug 16, 2016 3:25 PM, "Craig Parmerlee" wrote: > The company forum

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

The company forum seems to be down. When one goes to http://forum.makemusic.com It comes back with "Your IP Address is banned from accessing this forum." I got the same result when using a proxy from the Netherlands, so something is wrong. Personally, I'll probably upgrade, hoping that there

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

Yeah, looks to be updated here: http://www.finalemusic.com/free-trial/ On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 2:13 PM, Ryan Beard wrote: > They said in the announcement that there's a 30 day free trial available. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 16, 2016, at 12:05 PM,

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

They said in the announcement that there's a 30 day free trial available. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 16, 2016, at 12:05 PM, "j...@thomastudios.com" > wrote: > > To be honest, for me, new features are at the bottom of my wishlist. I need > Finale to run FASTER,

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

Never mind, found it. *** J D Thomas ThomaStudios > On Aug 16, 2016, at 12:05 PM, j...@thomastudios.com wrote: > > Anyone know if a demo version is available to try? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

To be honest, for me, new features are at the bottom of my wishlist. I need Finale to run FASTER, especially with larger files, and more of the existing bugs quashed. Anyone know if a demo version is available to try? Robert, I found your discussion about internals within Finale most

Re: [Finale] Finale 25

On Tue, August 16, 2016 2:57 pm, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: > Well. Isn’t THIS not exciting... > http://www.finalemusic.com/products/finale/whats-new/?utm_source=responsys_medium=email_campaign=25release_content=upgrade I had the same reaction -- especially to the upgrade price, with