At 10:49 PM -0500 9/18/11, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
John Howell wrote:
that's true up through Mozart
as far as sacred music goes.
but I would note that it's also true for a significant portion of
English Cathedral Music up through the present time. While much of the
music is quite lovely with
At 2:56 PM -0400 9/17/11, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 16 Sep 2011 at 23:56, John Howell wrote:
By rights we should require good sightreading as
a prerequisite before we accepted any student as
a college music major, but if we actually did
that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all
From: John Howell john.how...@vt.edu
Most of us
have to make do with 5 (or only 4, in Guido's
original chant notation). That's why movable
clefs were invented (by Guido himself!) in the
first place.
As a child I once had the brilliant idea of using a
6-line staff, where each line and space
At 1:40 PM +0100 9/18/11, Peter Taylor wrote:
From: John Howell john.how...@vt.edu
Most of us
have to make do with 5 (or only 4, in Guido's
original chant notation). That's why movable
clefs were invented (by Guido himself!) in the
first place.
As a child I once had the brilliant idea of using
At 7:27 AM -0700 9/18/11, TXSTNR POP account wrote:
Lately I've been working on lead sheets for Joan
Armatrading, and since her range is so low, (2nd
space C in bass clef) I find it convenient to
use Treble 8 in order to avoid ledger lines.
That means that the lyrics are much closer to
the
On 18 Sep 2011 at 7:51, Phil Daley wrote:
At 9/17/2011 03:53 PM, John Howell wrote:
As a practical matter you're correct. But my
point is that music should be taught as
rigorously in elementary schools as any other
subject, and as rigorously as it is in the Kodály
programs in
At 9/18/2011 01:57 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
Music as a discipline has been shown in studies to improve the
ability of students to reason and think. Thus, time spent on teaching
music properly could make the other teaching more efficient.
We had plenty of time for music when I was a kid. I
On Sep 18, 2011, at 5:40 AM, Peter Taylor wrote:
I've enjoyed this discussion. Treble clef for tenors,
with or without the 8, seems the most natural to me,
because the voice range is similar to soprano, albeit
an octave lower. But what about altos using
treble clef? If anything, that
At 5:49 PM -0700 9/18/11, Mark D Lew wrote:
I find alto voice parts in 8vb much more
confusing than tenor voice parts in 8vb.
As in most notation questions (as in the
difference bewteen jazz and classical
interpretations), what matters is communication
and what your singers are used to.
John Howell wrote:
that's true up through Mozart
as far as sacred music goes.
but I would note that it's also true for a significant portion of
English Cathedral Music up through the present time. While much of the
music is quite lovely with a mixed choir, the choirs with whom the
composers
At 9/16/2011 11:56 PM, John Howell wrote:
By rights we should require good sightreading as
a prerequisite before we accepted any student as
a college music major, but if we actually did
that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all
(except the smart ones, many of whom started
taking piano
On 9/17/2011 7:23 AM, Phil Daley wrote:
At 9/16/2011 11:56 PM, John Howell wrote:
By rights we should require good sightreading as
a prerequisite before we accepted any student as
a college music major, but if we actually did
that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all
(except
Since the discussion has veered off into discussion of piccolos, octave
transpositions and ledger lines, I thought I'd share a nugget about piccolo
and flute writing. All those ledger lines are tough to read, at least for
the rest of us mortals who don't play flute or picc. But they're used to
At 7:23 AM -0400 9/17/11, Phil Daley wrote:
At 9/16/2011 11:56 PM, John Howell wrote:
By rights we should require good sightreading as
a prerequisite before we accepted any student as
a college music major, but if we actually did
that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all
(except the
At 12:34 PM -0500 9/17/11, Steve Larsen wrote:
My own practice is to use the 8va sign in scores when necessary, but to
restore the part to its proper octave when extracting.
And that just makes good sense. And save space
in the score, where things are more crowded
already.
Another pet peeve
On 16 Sep 2011 at 23:56, John Howell wrote:
By rights we should require good sightreading as
a prerequisite before we accepted any student as
a college music major, but if we actually did
that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all
(except the smart ones, many of whom started
taking
On 16 Sep 2011 at 11:18, Patrick Sheehan wrote:
News flash: We all have to deal
with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists).
Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be
comfortable! We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5.
Actually that
] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup
At 12:34 PM -0500 9/17/11, Steve Larsen wrote:
My own practice is to use the 8va sign in scores when necessary, but to
restore the part to its proper octave when extracting.
And that just makes good sense. And save space
in the score, where things are more
On Sep 16, 2011, at 9:18 AM, Patrick Sheehan wrote:
Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing
instrument. Correct! In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef
notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they
have to think that
At 1:00 PM -0700 9/17/11, Mark D Lew wrote:
On Sep 16, 2011, at 9:18 AM, Patrick Sheehan wrote:
Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing
instrument. Correct! In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef
notes but what's coming out of their throat is
Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've
used and seen.
To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors,
I simply find it impractical.
News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
(pianists, flutists, violinists).
Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards. And,
if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and
got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of
works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like?
Go
With the tenor range from (Bb) C to A+ the treble 8 clef is perfect.
It is not being treated as a transposing instrument - it is a different clef to
a treble clef.
Using bass clef where the tenor vocal range begins in the second space is
difficult to justify rationally.
As for piano playing,
I agree with you Raymond we ought to be able to play what's
written, but when I'm writing stuff for any groups to which I have
access, I best take GREAT care about ranges, clefs, etc.,, or it
just don't get read ... good practice anyway ...
Dean
On Sep 16, 2011, at 9:55 AM,
I want to clarify when I said some anthems from the 80s that were
published with an open score with bass clef for tenors. I said I
remember them as being easy to read, or something like that.
1) I am a terrible pianist. I have certainly had plenty of years
experience hearing a conventional
At 1:31 PM -0400 9/16/11, Raymond Horton wrote:
I want to clarify when I said some anthems from the 80s that were
published with an open score with bass clef for tenors. I said I
remember them as being easy to read, or something like that.
Things get really interesting when we start
talking
Absolutely, write what is clearest and most easily understood. If
bass clef for your tenors is that, fine.
But saying All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no
exception is another matter.
Interesting to see real examples of how jazz trombonists never
embraced clefs other than
Good thing the auidence can't hear the cleffing...
ajr
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On 16 Sep 2011 at 11:18, Patrick Sheehan wrote:
To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for
tenors, I simply find it impractical.
That makes no sense -- it is by far the most practical clef FOR THE
TENORS (i.e., the musicians for whom the music is written, that is,
At least you guys know singers who can read at all. When I took first semester
sight singing an North Texas, the worst readers in the class were the singers.
On Sep 16, 2011, at 2:49 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 16 Sep 2011 at 11:18, Patrick Sheehan wrote:
To clarify, I do not have a
At 3:05 PM -0700 9/16/11, TXSTNR POP account wrote:
At least you guys know singers who can read at
all. When I took first semester sight singing
an North Texas, the worst readers in the class
were the singers.
Oh, we understand the problem; we just can't do
anything about it by ourselves.
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