Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:28:46 -0400, Norman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Boris Koenig writes: But, there seems to be a project related to openRT that is dedicated to developing the necessary hardware: http://www.saarcor.de/ This is a fascinating project but ... until these chips are as prevalent in consumer grade hardware as OpenGL cards are today, I think we should content ourselves with just dreaming about programing FGFS in OpenRT. ..OpenGL is mature tech, say IBM hops in full bore, how far away is useable OpenRT? Note that FGFS does not utilize many of the features available in the more current generations of OpenGL cards but now that OpenGL 2.0 is a reality that may start to change in the not so distant future. ..impact on FG performance with OpenGL 2.0? I was thinking X.org 11R6.7.0. ;-) This *might* make a large differance in the rendering performance although I suggest that those preoccupied with the rendering speed profile the code to see where the time is being spent. I am espescially interested in the profiling results from the newer higher end cards. i.e the GForce 4 class or equivalent cards ..which is the low end limit on ATI, 3dfx etc cards, that can do at least 1fps? -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:28:46 -0400, Norman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I am espescially interested in the profiling results from the newer higher end cards. i.e the GForce 4 class or equivalent cards ..which is the low end limit on ATI, 3dfx etc cards, that can do at least 1fps? I mentioned this a couple of times already, but the weird thing is really that I have personally achieved higher/better performance using an OLD card, rather than using my current nvidia accelerator on the main machine, I was just recently really about to change cards ;-) On the other hand, the old ATI R128 card achieves about 70-80 fps in 800x600 resolution under _windows_ running stuff like counterstrike. While running FlightGear (either under windows or linux) leaves me with only about 30-35 fps if I am lucky. Regarding profiling: what would be necessary to be done ? Are there _any_ profiler tools for 3D/openGL applications ? I know that there do exist some openGL related logging tools which can monitor the commands that the graphics adapter receives/processes, but don't have the slightest clue, how to really PROFILE an openGL app if you want to profile the openGL instructions. Don't even know if one could use gprof for such a purpose ? If there exist any libraries specifically aimed at profiling/debugging openGL applications, it might indeed make sense to optionally include such functionality in developer releases in order to first find the bottleneck on most configurations, and then be able to really address it. If I remember correctly, SGI did have some kind of openGL debugger, but don't know if there's any freely available stuff for these purposes, personally I certainly wouldn't care if I had to install another 50 meg package in order to have the necessary profiling capabilities, such a profiling feature could optionally even report its results automatically back to the FlightGear webpage, that way one could really get representative data. - Boris ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
Be thankful for that 30-36 fps you have. I usually have about 6-9 fps. ='( Regards, Ampere On July 26, 2004 02:58 pm, Boris Koenig wrote: On the other hand, the old ATI R128 card achieves about 70-80 fps in 800x600 resolution under _windows_ running stuff like counterstrike. While running FlightGear (either under windows or linux) leaves me with only about 30-35 fps if I am lucky. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: Be thankful for that 30-36 fps you have. I usually have about 6-9 fps. ='( Yes, as I said: I get pretty much the same with the new nvidia card, and regarding the ATI card, I did have to disable several options to come into the 20+ FPS range, but on the other hand I don't care that much for the eyecandy stuff, I'd rather have a smooth performance ;-) But if anybody knows how to profile openGL applications, I really wouldn't mind to install/configure the necessary stuff if that helps to track down the most essential problems and make FlightGear become smoother. - Boris ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
On Monday 26 July 2004 19:58, Boris Koenig wrote: Regarding profiling: what would be necessary to be done ? Are there _any_ profiler tools for 3D/openGL applications ? you might want to take a look at this: http://www.hawksoft.com/gltrace/ Regards, Tiago ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
Boris Koenig writes: But, there seems to be a project related to openRT that is dedicated to developing the necessary hardware: http://www.saarcor.de/ This is a fascinating project but ... until these chips are as prevalent in consumer grade hardware as OpenGL cards are today, I think we should content ourselves with just dreaming about programing FGFS in OpenRT. Note that FGFS does not utilize many of the features available in the more current generations of OpenGL cards but now that OpenGL 2.0 is a reality that may start to change in the not so distant future. This *might* make a large differance in the rendering performance although I suggest that those preoccupied with the rendering speed profile the code to see where the time is being spent. I am espescially interested in the profiling results from the newer higher end cards. i.e the GForce 4 class or equivalent cards Cheers Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
All I am saying is that it will be a good idea to look deeper into it instead of pushing it aside. After all, from what I have read on their site, the OpenRT library seems to offer some pretty neat capabilities that aren't in the current version of plib. At the very least, we should keep this real-time-raytracing technology in mind. The idea of Microsoft come out with games that utilize real time raytracing while Linux has nothing equivilent is... freightening. Regards, Ampere On July 20, 2004 03:23 am, Jim Wilson wrote: Hmmm... that 777 Model page didn't mention a GPU. In any case, I gather from reading just the first paragraph on the OpenRT page you'd be looking at having plib utilize the OpenRT API in lieu of OpenGL's. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
On July 20, 2004 03:23 am, Jim Wilson wrote: Hmmm... that 777 Model page didn't mention a GPU. In any case, I gather from reading just the first paragraph on the OpenRT page you'd be looking at having plib utilize the OpenRT API in lieu of OpenGL's. I may be wrong, but from what I've read, openRT is indeed supposed to make use of a specific GPU - or alternatively a (cluster of) CPU(s) @ ~40 GHZ :-) But, there seems to be a project related to openRT that is dedicated to developing the necessary hardware: http://www.saarcor.de/ Seemingly, also a project of the same German university. Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: All I am saying is that it will be a good idea to look deeper into it instead of pushing it aside. After all, from what I have read on their site, the OpenRT library seems to offer some pretty neat capabilities that aren't in the current version of plib. plib makes use of openGL while openRT is a different rendering approach which doesn't utilize rasterization anymore - so I think Jim is right in saying that one would really have to drop the entire openGL approach to make use of something like that. I don't know the details, but I doubt that it would be really simple to convert to such a new approach, which wouldn't rely on openGL anymore. In the long term the openRT folks probably hope to replace the openGL implementation in many 3D applications with openRT, because it could provide a performance boost in many cases, particularly because it would no longer be necessary to process all graphics data just in order to determine which parts are really visible or not ... At the very least, we should keep this real-time-raytracing technology in mind. The idea of Microsoft come out with games that utilize real time raytracing while Linux has nothing equivilent is... freightening. I agree, the whole idea is extremely fascinating: Having had a look at some of the screenshots or even videos, the stuff seems really to be pretty amazing and powerful, but currently it's probably really a bit beyond the scope of any game, to care too much for openRT, simply because of the lack of hardware support, I think - be it a relevant GPU board or the 40 GHZ requirement for openRT :-) And then I am not even sure if there's really yet an OPEN implementation available !? As long as FlightGear keeps getting modularized even more, it should not be that much of a problem, to consider new technologies - even though this unlikely to become an issue within the next 3-5 years ;-) But on the other hand, at http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/RTGames you can read: We are very much interested in evaluating new ways for computer games and therefore like to cooperate with the gaming industry. Thus if you are in such a position, please send us an email mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]! So, now it depends if FlightGear is considered part of the gaming industry :-) But if the openRT developers are really also looking for opensource projects, it would probably be not that bad for FlightGear to at least indicate some willingness ;-) - Boris ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
Jon Stockill said: Wow! http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/MassiveRT/boeing777.html How long until we're using models with that level of detail then? ;-) WAG: 8 years on high end retail hardware. ;-) ..fwiw...which isn't much. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
Ampere K. Hardraade said: On July 10, 2004 08:25 pm, Norman Vine wrote: Ampere K. Hardraade writes: Anyway we can get the plib group to look into their method for rendering? Have at it ! How do I reach them? Note PLib's scenegraph is SSG Simple Scene Graph Since this model is anything but simple IMO it doesn't really qualify for SSG Simple Scene Graph :-) Well, their method of rendering is capable of rendering that 350 millions triangle monster in under 10 seconds. If using that method means that the framerates of FlightGear goes up plus more detail scenery, then it certainly worths look into in my opinion. Hmmm... that 777 Model page didn't mention a GPU. In any case, I gather from reading just the first paragraph on the OpenRT page you'd be looking at having plib utilize the OpenRT API in lieu of OpenGL's. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: Well, their method of rendering is capable of rendering that 350 millions triangle monster in under 10 seconds. If using that method means that the framerates of FlightGear goes up plus more detail scenery, then it certainly worths look into in my opinion. Please keep in mind that the Boeing apparently doesn't contain textures but siple shadowing instead, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
On July 10, 2004 08:25 pm, Norman Vine wrote: Ampere K. Hardraade writes: Anyway we can get the plib group to look into their method for rendering? Have at it ! How do I reach them? Note PLib's scenegraph is SSG Simple Scene Graph Since this model is anything but simple IMO it doesn't really qualify for SSG Simple Scene Graph :-) Well, their method of rendering is capable of rendering that 350 millions triangle monster in under 10 seconds. If using that method means that the framerates of FlightGear goes up plus more detail scenery, then it certainly worths look into in my opinion. Regards, Ampere ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
The plib project homepage is at http://plib.sf.net and the main plib developers mailinglist is here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cheers, Durk On Monday 12 July 2004 04:35, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: On July 10, 2004 08:25 pm, Norman Vine wrote: Ampere K. Hardraade writes: Anyway we can get the plib group to look into their method for rendering? Have at it ! How do I reach them? Note PLib's scenegraph is SSG Simple Scene Graph Since this model is anything but simple IMO it doesn't really qualify for SSG Simple Scene Graph :-) Well, their method of rendering is capable of rendering that 350 millions triangle monster in under 10 seconds. If using that method means that the framerates of FlightGear goes up plus more detail scenery, then it certainly worths look into in my opinion. Regards, Ampere ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
Wow! http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/MassiveRT/boeing777.html How long until we're using models with that level of detail then? ;-) -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
We can use that... now, but you'll have to set it so that the highest level of detail of each component only shows up when the camera is less than 1 meter from it. LOL. Regards, Ampere On July 10, 2004 06:32 pm, Jon Stockill wrote: Wow! http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/MassiveRT/boeing777.html How long until we're using models with that level of detail then? ;-) ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
Anyway we can get the plib group to look into their method for rendering? Regards, Ampere On July 10, 2004 06:32 pm, Jon Stockill wrote: Wow! http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/MassiveRT/boeing777.html How long until we're using models with that level of detail then? ;-) ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
Ampere K. Hardraade writes: Anyway we can get the plib group to look into their method for rendering? Have at it ! Note PLib's scenegraph is SSG Simple Scene Graph Since this model is anything but simple IMO it doesn't really qualify for SSG Simple Scene Graph :-) Norman On July 10, 2004 06:32 pm, Jon Stockill wrote: Wow! http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/MassiveRT/boeing777.html How long until we're using models with that level of detail then? ;-) ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 777 Model
http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/RTGames/ Regards, Ampere ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
