Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:01 AM, Jack Mermod wrote: Hi Everybody, I recently was on Multiplayer, flying with a friend, minding my own business, when another pilot asked a general newbie question: Where can I find the Nimitz?. In only good intent, I replied: Look around the Golden Gate Bridge, you'll find it eventually. The pilot then proceeded to criticize my short answer(typing long detailed replies isn't easy when you're trying to land on a carrier), and soon began insulting me, using foul, profane language, and finally proceeded to threaten to come to my house and kill me and my family.(I'm 68 and I even learned some things!) snip I thought you were 24 (based on your forum profile)? One fairly easy option would be to filter MP chat messages in nasal based on a set of unnacceptable words. We could do this on the receiving client and simply not display such messages. I've been thinking this would be a good idea to make the FG MP environment more child-friendly anyway. I'd also be tempted to filter on the sending client as well, and not allow a message to be sent with such content. This would at least notify the sender of the standard of language we expect, though they could bypass it fairly easily if they hacked the Nasal. Probably the biggest challenge would be finding a GPL list of naughty words. I haven't yet done any research so see if such a list exists. One feels that this must be a problem other chat systems have had to solve. This won't stop the problem completely but might discourage such behaviour. -Stuart -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
Oh dear ... http://www.noswearing.com/dictionary I was going to say that we could probably do a pretty good job at coming up with a list ourselves, then I saw this site and realized I'm a complete novice ... Could we also filter at the MP server level? It might be nice to filter at the sending level so you could give the user some positive feedback if they type something that won't get passed along. But as imperfect (and possibly entertaining) as any list would be, it might not be a bad idea to do some basic screening of the more common words. That stuff is unnecessary and in real life you'd probably get your license yanked if you were caught using foul language on the radio. As with the rest of life, it's nice to run a 100% completely open and free system, until a few idiots start abusing the privilege and then we are forced to start clamping down. :-( Another thought. I know it would be a huge effort to setup a system with user id's and passwords, self registration, captcha's, email verification, etc. Even more interesting if we want a distributed authentication system on top of our distributed mp server system. But if we could expand the MP system to include a user id with the intent of eventually tying this to a user account/authentication system, then we could flag and identify abusers. We might have some developers or participants who are really good at this stuff and would love to setup a system??? If we developed it in parallel, we could still have the current system running by default as we bring an authenticated system on line. Then we'd be able to determine if the authenticated system works well, makes sense, helps address abuse, etc. And at some point when it's working well, we could cut over to it. Or individuals could make their own personal decision about which system to run on (hopefully the tide would shift over to the authenticated system.) Abuse could involve more than language or threats on the chat system. It might be worth slapping someone for leaving their AN-225 parked at the end of 28R at SFO for 3 days straight or perhaps doing other things intentionally to disrupt the realistic flight experience of others on the system. I know we have some good php/mysql jockies in this project ... I don't think we need to be cryptographically secure in our system. Just thinking out loud here: maybe the mp server computes a random key of the day (16bit or 32bit random number). You have to authenticate with user name/password to get the key, and then there would be a slot in every output MP message from your system for this key. (This would all be handled internally to FlightGear some how ... maybe you could set your username/password via command line options or properties in the config file, or set them in a dialog box and then they'd be saved in your autosave.xml file.) Messages that don't have the matching key would be silently discarded. Sure this could be hacked, but I think some basic simple levels of authentication would take care of 99.99% of the riff raff. Regards, Curt. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Stuart Buchanan wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:01 AM, Jack Mermod wrote: Hi Everybody, I recently was on Multiplayer, flying with a friend, minding my own business, when another pilot asked a general newbie question: Where can I find the Nimitz?. In only good intent, I replied: Look around the Golden Gate Bridge, you'll find it eventually. The pilot then proceeded to criticize my short answer(typing long detailed replies isn't easy when you're trying to land on a carrier), and soon began insulting me, using foul, profane language, and finally proceeded to threaten to come to my house and kill me and my family.(I'm 68 and I even learned some things!) snip I thought you were 24 (based on your forum profile)? One fairly easy option would be to filter MP chat messages in nasal based on a set of unnacceptable words. We could do this on the receiving client and simply not display such messages. I've been thinking this would be a good idea to make the FG MP environment more child-friendly anyway. I'd also be tempted to filter on the sending client as well, and not allow a message to be sent with such content. This would at least notify the sender of the standard of language we expect, though they could bypass it fairly easily if they hacked the Nasal. Probably the biggest challenge would be finding a GPL list of naughty words. I haven't yet done any research so see if such a list exists. One feels that this must be a problem other chat systems have had to solve. This won't stop the problem completely but might discourage such behaviour. -Stuart -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
That stuff is unnecessary and in real life you'd probably get your license yanked if you were caught using foul language on the radio. Here, in Canada , its a $5000 fine and/or a year in jail.That,s a pretty good deterrent :). -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
On 10/19/2010 7:56 AM, Stuart Buchanan wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:01 AM, Jack Mermod wrote: Hi Everybody, I recently was on Multiplayer, flying with a friend, minding my own business, when another pilot asked a general newbie question: Where can I find the Nimitz?. In only good intent, I replied: Look around the Golden Gate Bridge, you'll find it eventually. The pilot then proceeded to criticize my short answer(typing long detailed replies isn't easy when you're trying to land on a carrier), and soon began insulting me, using foul, profane language, and finally proceeded to threaten to come to my house and kill me and my family.(I'm 68 and I even learned some things!) snip [...] Probably the biggest challenge would be finding a GPL list of naughty words. I haven't yet done any research so see if such a list exists. One feels that this must be a problem other chat systems have had to solve. This won't stop the problem completely but might discourage such behaviour. -Stuart BZFlag, a GPL multiplayer tank shoot'm up game, maintains such a list, see the file /misc/multilingualSwearList.txt in the SVN repo below: |https://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/bzflag| -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
?Forgive my ignorance, but what happens at the moment? Does nobody say anything to the abusers? Doesn't peer pressure, good example and setting guidelines present a more realistic solution (realistic by comparison with what happens in real world aviation I mean) rather than coming up with an automated system of blocking and control? Mally - Original Message - From: syd adams adams@gmail.com To: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers That stuff is unnecessary and in real life you'd probably get your license yanked if you were caught using foul language on the radio. Here, in Canada , its a $5000 fine and/or a year in jail.That,s a pretty good deterrent :). -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1136 / Virus Database: 422/3206 - Release Date: 10/19/10 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1136 / Virus Database: 422/3206 - Release Date: 10/19/10 -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Reagan Thomas thomas...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/19/2010 7:56 AM, Stuart Buchanan wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:01 AM, Jack Mermod wrote: Hi Everybody, I recently was on Multiplayer, flying with a friend, minding my own business, when another pilot asked a general newbie question: Where can I find the Nimitz?. In only good intent, I replied: Look around the Golden Gate Bridge, you'll find it eventually. The pilot then proceeded to criticize my short answer(typing long detailed replies isn't easy when you're trying to land on a carrier), and soon began insulting me, using foul, profane language, and finally proceeded to threaten to come to my house and kill me and my family.(I'm 68 and I even learned some things!) snip [...] Probably the biggest challenge would be finding a GPL list of naughty words. I haven't yet done any research so see if such a list exists. One feels that this must be a problem other chat systems have had to solve. This won't stop the problem completely but might discourage such behaviour. -Stuart BZFlag, a GPL multiplayer tank shoot'm up game, maintains such a list, see the file /misc/multilingualSwearList.txt in the SVN repo below: |https://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/bzflag|https://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/bzflag%7C Hrmm, I guess they *don't* maintain it any longer. You can probably find it in an old branch or tag. Or find it here: http://svn.navi.cx/misc/abandoned/opencombat/misc/ -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
On Tue, 19 Oct 2010, Curtis Olson wrote: Oh dear ... http://www.noswearing.com/dictionary I was going to say that we could probably do a pretty good job at coming up with a list ourselves, then I saw this site and realized I'm a complete novice ... A filter like this belongs in the client machine, not the server. It's not the job of a multi-player server to provide nanny services. If the end user doesn't want to see adult language, they're welcome to enable whatever filtering that could be built into the client. In fact, this could be enabled by default - that way paruhnts of pweshush snowflakes don't come screaming at you about having to gouge out their eyes over four letter words (spelling of parents is intentional). Any kind of multi-player universe is going to have griefers. There's no reasonable way around it. There are ways to mitigate it though. The most effective methods require people in the loop unfortunately. Authenticated logins will help - as well as a rating system that other users can use to filter bad-actors. The ratings would have to be provided by other players. Say they'd start out as a 10 and every n complaints, they'd get docked a point. Troublesome users would eventually lower their rating to a point where most players wouldn't see them. Think of how the Slashdot moderation system work - you can read the comments at a specific level The same could be done with MP traffic on the client. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 9:25 AM, syd adams adams@gmail.com wrote: That stuff is unnecessary and in real life you'd probably get your license yanked if you were caught using foul language on the radio. Here, in Canada , its a $5000 fine and/or a year in jail.That,s a pretty good deterrent :). Aviation aside, in Oklahoma, Profane Swearing is worth $1 for each offense: http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69425 Obscene language in a public place, is up to $100 and 30 days in jail: http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69426 It's a good thing they don't enforce those laws very vigorously ;) -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: A filter like this belongs in the client machine, not the server. It's not the job of a multi-player server to provide nanny services. If the end user doesn't want to see adult language, they're welcome to enable whatever filtering that could be built into the client. In fact, this could be enabled by default - that way paruhnts of pweshush snowflakes don't come screaming at you about having to gouge out their eyes over four letter words (spelling of parents is intentional). Gene, I appreciate your perspective, but I think it's incomplete. The job of the multi-player server is to provide a fun user experience. Let's pretend no one is transported instantly to hell for the remainder of eternity when they read a 4 letter word. Still we have potential for racial slurs, and the case that started this discussion: online death threats. Free and open systems work great when everyone cooperates and acts responsibly. If however one person acts irresponsibly, it can ruin everything for everyone. We can't enforce a perfect system. I think most people can look beyond some occasional salty language, but other abuses are more serious, and it's not about protecting my kids at that point. It's that we can't tolerate things like death threats and racial slurs. It's a slippery slope I know ... I'm talking about the broader category of hate speech which is probably a loaded term in and of itself and will send many people spinning out of control into political rants either for or against ... I don't want to define exactly what is or isn't allowable, but I think we can mostly agree that some things are absolutely not allowable, and I'd put death threats into that category. So when there are cases of severe abuse, we at least need to think about what mechanism we have available or could develop to self police our community. Would it be possible to start logging and saving (and publishing) MP messages somewhere so a person with a grievance would have some hard evidence to show what happened. Right now when push comes to shove, we are in a he said/she said situation. But if we logged every message + call sign + ip address we could go back and review situations. Certainly it's possible the grieved party might have said something initially that was more controversial than they remember and started the situation degenerating into something worse than it would have been. Certainly it's possible that comments would be misinterpreted. We could also passively collect some stats on what portion of messages contain possibly offending language or what specific call signs might have unusually high percentages of matching words. Not initially to use for enforcement, but just to review the true nature of the situation so we can make a more informed decision as to if we have a real problem that needs to be addressed, or not ... ? I understand that data free discussions are the most fun, but if we logged and published MP messages, we could do some statistical analysis on all the conversations, and we would also have specific cases we could review to determine if there really is a problem or not. I'd hate to spend 6 months developing an authentication system because one idiot one time said something stupid and it never happened again. But if stuff happens regularly, or if there are regular offenders, perhaps we would be wise to think more carefully about developing mechanisms to deal with it. Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://www.atiak.com - http://aem.umn.edu/~uav/ http://www.flightgear.org - http://www.flightgear.org/blogs/category/curt/http://www.flightgear.org/blogs/category/personal/curt/ -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
On Tuesday 19 October 2010 16:41:35 Mally wrote: ?Forgive my ignorance, but what happens at the moment? Does nobody say anything to the abusers? Doesn't peer pressure, good example and setting guidelines present a more realistic solution (realistic by comparison with what happens in real world aviation I mean) rather than coming up with an automated system of blocking and control? Very sensible words. Technical solutions usually don't work for social problems. A simple word filter would not prevent me from offending people or even expressing death threats. It would probably not even prevent me from swearing excessively in German. It might on the other hand prevent me from simply talking to people. As an example: jap may be an offending reference to a Japanese (as on Curt's word list), but also simply be the German form of yep. A word I use daily. Social problems are best solved by social solutions. In a friendly, welcoming and helping society foul language and threats usually don't come that far. For death threats, there are even more severe means available. Those are illegal in pretty much any country I know of and would result in immediate prison to protect the victim. The state simply cannot be sure if the offender might really do it. Stefan -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
On Tue, 19 Oct 2010, Curtis Olson wrote: On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: A filter like this belongs in the client machine, not the server. It's not the job of a multi-player server to provide nanny services. If the end user doesn't want to see adult language, they're welcome to enable whatever filtering that could be built into the client. In fact, this could be enabled by default - that way paruhnts of pweshush snowflakes don't come screaming at you about having to gouge out their eyes over four letter words (spelling of parents is intentional). Gene, I appreciate your perspective, but I think it's incomplete. The job of the multi-player server is to provide a fun user experience. The whole hate speech thing gives me a squicky feeling - it's more of a cliff edge than a slippery slope and (at least for my purposes) outside the envelope for this... What I DO think is a good idea is keeping logs of radio traffic. Something like a rolling 30 days of it would be kind of interesting and something along the lines of how the FAA tracks keeps ATC audio. (although I don't know what the retention periods are). I would like to see a feature added that would prevent the logging if _all_ the users on a specific frequency had a privacy toggle set. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
Promoting the concept of free market place of ideas here: The multiplayer server source is open and anyone can setup their own server. Sure the MP system is only fun when there are lots of people participating ... But if someone wants to have their own private free for all and express any opinion in anyway, I have no problem with that ... they can set up their own server and go at it. On the flip side, if enough people determine that the abuses in the current MP system have crossed a threshold, we can do something about it. We can develop an authenticated system (there would be a variety of ways to do that, some wouldn't require any changes on the client side.) So I think it's good to have an honest discussion of all these issues. We do currently have just one community MP system so it's fair to discuss how that is used and abused. But we have a free system here where it would be quite easy for people on all sides of the issue to address their own concerns by setting up their own servers and doing whatever they want to with them. I assume at the end of the day we'll have a majority of opinion and I think we should steer our MP system in that direction, but those that are highly offended by the majority view could very easily set up their own system and do whatever they like with it. Curt. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:34 AM, Stefan Seifert wrote: On Tuesday 19 October 2010 16:41:35 Mally wrote: ?Forgive my ignorance, but what happens at the moment? Does nobody say anything to the abusers? Doesn't peer pressure, good example and setting guidelines present a more realistic solution (realistic by comparison with what happens in real world aviation I mean) rather than coming up with an automated system of blocking and control? Very sensible words. Technical solutions usually don't work for social problems. A simple word filter would not prevent me from offending people or even expressing death threats. It would probably not even prevent me from swearing excessively in German. It might on the other hand prevent me from simply talking to people. As an example: jap may be an offending reference to a Japanese (as on Curt's word list), but also simply be the German form of yep. A word I use daily. Social problems are best solved by social solutions. In a friendly, welcoming and helping society foul language and threats usually don't come that far. For death threats, there are even more severe means available. Those are illegal in pretty much any country I know of and would result in immediate prison to protect the victim. The state simply cannot be sure if the offender might really do it. Stefan -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Curtis Olson: http://www.atiak.com - http://aem.umn.edu/~uav/ http://www.flightgear.org - http://www.flightgear.org/blogs/category/curt/http://www.flightgear.org/blogs/category/personal/curt/ -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
A few additional details can be found by reading the relevant post as jackmermod in the FG forums: I experienced a horrible attack over mp today. I ended up flying up on the attackers 6 o'clock in my F-14 and firing upon him with over 20 Aim-9's in hopes of causing him to lag. Luckily I caused him to crash.(which pissed him off enough to leave) :) the things he said accumulated to the most disgusting words I have ever seen put together in my life. While I am not affected, many others who may have to go through this would probably leave flightgear. http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10t=8432st=0sk=tsd=astart=270 Behavior was clearly not the best on either side. In my experience, technical solutions can't prevent this sort of thing. I work in the education field on a project involving online communities of grade school children. We employ language filters. The result has little effect on what the children can communicate. They can always find ways around the filter or re-phrase their meaning. The real behavior checks come from the community: the moderators, their peers, their teachers. -Gary -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
Stefan Seifert wrote: Very sensible words. Technical solutions usually don't work for social problems. Exactly this is the point, and I'd like to add that the social problem we're currently looking at might be manifold Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
Instead of trying to put together a list, you should watch a video of George Carlin's Seven dirty words. Censorship is not the solution to this kind of problem. It is just too easy to come up with a way to be offensive, or to threaten someone. If you decide to censor, then YOU take the responsibility for anything that is not censored, since it is now approved by the filter. If the response is that the filter doesn't do a good job, then what is the point? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_dirty_words http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Carlin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Nrp7cj_tM --Adam On Oct 19, 2010, at 7:07 AM, Curtis Olson wrote: Oh dear ... http://www.noswearing.com/dictionary I was going to say that we could probably do a pretty good job at coming up with a list ourselves, then I saw this site and realized I'm a complete novice ... Could we also filter at the MP server level? It might be nice to filter at the sending level so you could give the user some positive feedback if they type something that won't get passed along. But as imperfect (and possibly entertaining) as any list would be, it might not be a bad idea to do some basic screening of the more common words. That stuff is unnecessary and in real life you'd probably get your license yanked if you were caught using foul language on the radio. As with the rest of life, it's nice to run a 100% completely open and free system, until a few idiots start abusing the privilege and then we are forced to start clamping down. :-( Another thought. I know it would be a huge effort to setup a system with user id's and passwords, self registration, captcha's, email verification, etc. Even more interesting if we want a distributed authentication system on top of our distributed mp server system. But if we could expand the MP system to include a user id with the intent of eventually tying this to a user account/authentication system, then we could flag and identify abusers. We might have some developers or participants who are really good at this stuff and would love to setup a system??? If we developed it in parallel, we could still have the current system running by default as we bring an authenticated system on line. Then we'd be able to determine if the authenticated system works well, makes sense, helps address abuse, etc. And at some point when it's working well, we could cut over to it. Or individuals could make their own personal decision about which system to run on (hopefully the tide would shift over to the authenticated system.) Abuse could involve more than language or threats on the chat system. It might be worth slapping someone for leaving their AN-225 parked at the end of 28R at SFO for 3 days straight or perhaps doing other things intentionally to disrupt the realistic flight experience of others on the system. I know we have some good php/mysql jockies in this project ... I don't think we need to be cryptographically secure in our system. Just thinking out loud here: maybe the mp server computes a random key of the day (16bit or 32bit random number). You have to authenticate with user name/password to get the key, and then there would be a slot in every output MP message from your system for this key. (This would all be handled internally to FlightGear some how ... maybe you could set your username/password via command line options or properties in the config file, or set them in a dialog box and then they'd be saved in your autosave.xml file.) Messages that don't have the matching key would be silently discarded. Sure this could be hacked, but I think some basic simple levels of authentication would take care of 99.99% of the riff raff. Regards, Curt. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Stuart Buchanan wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:01 AM, Jack Mermod wrote: Hi Everybody, I recently was on Multiplayer, flying with a friend, minding my own business, when another pilot asked a general newbie question: Where can I find the Nimitz?. In only good intent, I replied: Look around the Golden Gate Bridge, you'll find it eventually. The pilot then proceeded to criticize my short answer(typing long detailed replies isn't easy when you're trying to land on a carrier), and soon began insulting me, using foul, profane language, and finally proceeded to threaten to come to my house and kill me and my family.(I'm 68 and I even learned some things!) snip I thought you were 24 (based on your forum profile)? One fairly easy option would be to filter MP chat messages in nasal based on a set of unnacceptable words. We could do this on the receiving client and simply not display such messages. I've been thinking this would be a good idea to make the FG MP environment more child-friendly anyway. I'd also be tempted to filter on the sending client as well, and not allow a message to
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
On Tuesday 19 October 2010 18:51:37 Martin Spott wrote: Stefan Seifert wrote: Very sensible words. Technical solutions usually don't work for social problems. Exactly this is the point, and I'd like to add that the social problem we're currently looking at might be manifold But I'd also like to add, that Curt's idea of simply logging multiplayer chat messages might help creating the social pressure to behave decently. As people already don't know, who might be listening on a frequency, privacy should not be an issue. If some people need real privacy, they should already use a private server. Stefan -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
Gary Neely wrote A few additional details can be found by reading the relevant post as jackmermod in the FG forums: I experienced a horrible attack over mp today. I ended up flying up on the attackers 6 o'clock in my F-14 and firing upon him with over 20 Aim-9's in hopes of causing him to lag. Luckily I caused him to crash.(which pissed him off enough to leave) :) the things he said accumulated to the most disgusting words I have ever seen put together in my life. While I am not affected, many others who may have to go through this would probably leave flightgear. http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10t=8432st=0sk=tsd=a; start=270 Behavior was clearly not the best on either side. In my experience, technical solutions can't prevent this sort of thing. I work in the education field on a project involving online communities of grade school children. We employ language filters. The result has little effect on what the children can communicate. They can always find ways around the filter or re-phrase their meaning. The real behavior checks come from the community: the moderators, their peers, their teachers. Hmm, so far as I'm aware, we don't pass missiles or any other submodels over MP, unless someone sneaked it in while I wasn't looking. Certainly, it isn't done in any code that I have written: deliberately so. I think someone was kidding himself. Vivian -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
Hal V. Engel wrote On Tuesday, October 19, 2010 02:15:08 pm Vivian Meazza wrote: Gary Neely wrote A few additional details can be found by reading the relevant post as jackmermod in the FG forums: I experienced a horrible attack over mp today. I ended up flying up on the attackers 6 o'clock in my F-14 and firing upon him with over 20 Aim-9's in hopes of causing him to lag. Luckily I caused him to crash.(which pissed him off enough to leave) :) the things he said accumulated to the most disgusting words I have ever seen put together in my life. While I am not affected, many others who may have to go through this would probably leave flightgear. http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10t=8432st=0sk=tsd=a start=270 Behavior was clearly not the best on either side. In my experience, technical solutions can't prevent this sort of thing. I work in the education field on a project involving online communities of grade school children. We employ language filters. The result has little effect on what the children can communicate. They can always find ways around the filter or re-phrase their meaning. The real behavior checks come from the community: the moderators, their peers, their teachers. Hmm, so far as I'm aware, we don't pass missiles or any other submodels over MP, unless someone sneaked it in while I wasn't looking. Certainly, it isn't done in any code that I have written: deliberately so. I think someone was kidding himself. Vivian If the models in question have the bombable stuff setup then some information about submodel hits (and near misses?) is sent over the wire. But what specific information is is sent I don't know. Bombable is not part of Flightgear. If MP Players choose to have that added into their system, that's up to them. However, so far as I'm aware it only transmits info about hits, and not submodel data, and it will not affect any player who hasn't added it to their system. If it does, I will take steps to stop it, as it represents a potential source of abuse. AFAIKS it's not part of the standard F14 available for download from FG. That said, I'm sure that bombable adds enjoyment of Flightgear for those that use it. Vivian -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers
One account per IP address is not a good idea, because it is very well possible for several independent people to use the same public IP address. In IPv4 at least with NAT routers. I can think of examples in student homes with a shared broadband connection. Or the clubhouse of the flying club. Or even private households where several family members like flightgear. Furthermore, there are Internet providers that use dynamic public IP addresses, so the same connection does not always use the same IP address. It would therefore not even limit access reliably. A limit of one member per IP address will probably bring a lot of support questions and is not practical. m Op 18-10-10 06:01, Jack Mermod schreef: We could then only allow one account per IP address(perfectly possible, the forum software we're using right now has an option for that!), and when a user acts up, they're account could be suspended accordingly based on the magnitude of their offense. For moderators, a group of respected and trusted users could be elected, or a report system could be rigged, and logs of mp chats could be stored for later reference. -- Download new Adobe(R) Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 The new Adobe(R) Flex(R) 4 and Flash(R) Builder(TM) 4 (formerly Flex(R) Builder(TM)) enable the development of rich applications that run across multiple browsers and platforms. Download your free trials today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/adobe-dev2dev___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
