Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
Thanks Martin, I will double check the licence attached to the data I have, but I'm confident it is free to use and distribute so long as any subsequent end-use is of personal or private non-profit nature. Cheers, Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE. From: Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Fri, 10 December, 2010 5:09:36 PM Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping Chris - and whoever is having custom land cover data on their hard disks, Chris Wilkinson wrote: If better data is available to build more accurate scenery then I think by all means we should use it. The next time a build is going to happen for the world scenery on the fg website I've got the shapefiles I used to generate my scenery so I'm happy to forward it to someone for use. The licence its under will allow that I believe. Please negotiate with John Holden, who started this thread. John has already done some fantastic improvements to our land cover collection - like in this area: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/map/?lon=-72.7lat=42.4zoom=10layers=B00FT and he's pretty familiar with the requirements. As a general hint I'd say: Please be careful wrt. the license. As an example, don't blindly copy features from OpenStreetMap - their license and ours are somewhat (still) irreconcilable. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Chris Wilkinson wrote: Thanks Martin, I will double check the licence attached to the data I have, but I'm confident it is free to use and distribute so long as any subsequent end-use is of personal or private non-profit nature. Please double-check. That second clause would mean that it is not GPL compatible, and can't be added to the Landcover DB. -Stuart -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
Stuart Buchanan wrote: On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Chris Wilkinson wrote: I will double check the licence attached to the data I have, but I'm confident it is free to use and distribute so long as any subsequent end-use is of personal or private non-profit nature. Please double-check. That second clause would mean that it is not GPL compatible, and can't be added to the Landcover DB. Yup. BTW, Chris, is there a name to the source of your data ? If you're in Australia, the source probably might already be known. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
On Fri, 2010-12-10 at 12:27 +, Martin Spott wrote: Stuart Buchanan wrote: On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Chris Wilkinson wrote: I will double check the licence attached to the data I have, but I'm confident it is free to use and distribute so long as any subsequent end-use is of personal or private non-profit nature. Please double-check. That second clause would mean that it is not GPL compatible, and can't be added to the Landcover DB. Yup. BTW, Chris, is there a name to the source of your data ? If you're in Australia, the source probably might already be known. Cheers, Martin. This may be a dumb question, (I've read the GPL license, but I'm certainly not an expert in it), but is it possible that the input data is not GPL itself, but that it could allow GPL scenery output (given that it goes through a process)? cheers S. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
Geosciences was one source, but there was at least one other I struggle to remember. It was 3 years ago that I first downloaded any data. In any eventuality I need to download the data again, so will double check the licenses for each source. It would be a little disheartening to not be allowed to distribute my scenery to anyone else. Regards, Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE. From: Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Fri, 10 December, 2010 10:27:22 PM Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping Stuart Buchanan wrote: On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Chris Wilkinson wrote: I will double check the licence attached to the data I have, but I'm confident it is free to use and distribute so long as any subsequent end-use is of personal or private non-profit nature. Please double-check. That second clause would mean that it is not GPL compatible, and can't be added to the Landcover DB. Yup. BTW, Chris, is there a name to the source of your data ? If you're in Australia, the source probably might already be known. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
Is there a legal expert on the list? :-) Without having a license in front of me I can only speculate. I can posit that GPL software does not need to exclusively deal with GPL compliant data, or else plenty of existing GPL software would not be allowed to open non-GPL fileformats. Thats the tricky one - fgfs is GPL, but if the license for the GIS data used to create scenery is not GPL, but allows rendering into derivative format (ie fg scenery), then is it OK for fgfs to be able to open derivatives (scenery) of the original data? The scenery is after all derived, not original. Regards, Chris Wilkinson From: Scott Hamilton scott.hamil...@popplanet.biz To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Fri, 10 December, 2010 11:07:28 PM Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping On Fri, 2010-12-10 at 12:27 +, Martin Spott wrote: Stuart Buchanan wrote: On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Chris Wilkinson wrote: I will double check the licence attached to the data I have, but I'm confident it is free to use and distribute so long as any subsequent end-use is of personal or private non-profit nature.Please double-check. That second clause would mean that it is not GPL compatible, and can't be added to the Landcover DB. Yup. BTW, Chris, is there a name to the source of your data ? If you're in Australia, the source probably might already be known. Cheers, Martin. This may be a dumb question, (I've read the GPL license, but I'm certainly not an expert in it), but is it possible that the input data is not GPL itself, but that it could allow GPL scenery output (given that it goes through a process)? cheers S. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
Scott Hamilton wrote: This may be a dumb question, (I've read the GPL license, but I'm certainly not an expert in it), but is it possible that the input data is not GPL itself, but that it could allow GPL scenery output (given that it goes through a process)? I don't know, depends on the license and the process ;-) Anyway, if the license says for non-commercial use only then it'll be rather difficult to design a process that would emit GPL-compilant Scenery. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
On Fri, 10 Dec 2010, Chris Wilkinson wrote: In any eventuality I need to download the data again, so will double check the licenses for each source. It would be a little disheartening to not be allowed to distribute my scenery to anyone else. It the data sources allow you to redistribute the data and works based on the date for non-commercial use, then you can redistribute the data and/or derived scenery under those conditions. However, the data or derived works based on the data cannot be included in the FlightGear distribution since such conditions are not compatible with the GPL. Cheers, Anders -- --- Anders Gidenstam WWW: http://www.gidenstam.org/FlightGear/ -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
On Fri, 10 Dec 2010, Anders Gidenstam wrote: On Fri, 10 Dec 2010, Chris Wilkinson wrote: In any eventuality I need to download the data again, so will double check the licenses for each source. It would be a little disheartening to not be allowed to distribute my scenery to anyone else. It the data sources allow you to redistribute the data and works based on the date for non-commercial use, then you can redistribute the data and/or derived scenery under those conditions. However, the data or derived works based on the data cannot be included in the FlightGear distribution since such conditions are not compatible with the GPL. ...which doesn't prevent the FlightGear website from pointing folks (in a very obvious manner) to where they can obtain the non-GPL packages. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
Gene Buckle wrote: On Fri, 10 Dec 2010, Anders Gidenstam wrote: However, the data or derived works based on the data cannot be included in the FlightGear distribution since such conditions are not compatible with the GPL. ...which doesn't prevent the FlightGear website from pointing folks (in a very obvious manner) to where they can obtain the non-GPL packages. Well, everyone's free to create their own stuff and to put it onto their private websites. Obviously. Nevertheless, in the spirit of a project which has a long-standing tradition of being cordial with the GPL, I'd rather encourage people to collect or create compilant data for creating a seamless World Scenery instead of advertizing a patchwork rug of private efforts under incompatible licenses. It's a little bit tedious, John Holden certainly can tell you, but it's possible. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
More and more users are starting to generate scenery which cannot be reconciled with the mapserver database - usually, by taking CORINE and OSM data and incorporating them together. Some of the results are very nice and are inspiring others to contribute in certain parts of the world, especially the collaboration around Innsbruck, and the coordination to get better GPL textures into the program to make it look better in general. For Australian purposes, if you =have= land cover data, by all means you can probably compile it using TerraGear - but you are in charge of distributing it and making sure the license requirements are all right, and there's no guarantee the scenery structure will be backwards-compatible in the future. This would be third-party scenery. Perhaps the biggest problem with third-party scenery is potential conflicts with objects, but as long as we continually encourage people to submit GPL-compliant objects regardless of the license of their terrain we're okay. I am more interested in =developing= the data for inclusion on the mapserver. I'm also greatly hoping TerraGear will be upgraded soon so that the World Scenery 2.0 can be released sometime in my lifetime, as there are a number of interesting places no-one has flown over yet on the mapserver :) Cheers John -- Oracle to DB2 Conversion Guide: Learn learn about native support for PL/SQL, new data types, scalar functions, improved concurrency, built-in packages, OCI, SQL*Plus, data movement tools, best practices and more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
There's a big visual problem with some airports, especially when they are next to lakes or water in the more top-drawer scenery. For an airport like Innsbruck, where the airport automatically generated grass polygon juts into the river cs_lake, or like Honolulu or Macau, when there is a lake in the middle of the airfield, would it be possible to take a lake layer (or the lake layer) and burn the water texture into the airfield before any of the taxiways are applied? Cheers John -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
J. Holden wrote: For an airport like Innsbruck, where the airport automatically generated grass polygon juts into the river cs_lake, or like Honolulu or Macau, when there is a lake in the middle of the airfield, would it be possible to take a lake layer (or the lake layer) and burn the water texture into the airfield before any of the taxiways are applied? Yes, in the not so distant future this should well be possible - at least technically. Yet I'd like to point out that this is going to open a new can of worms, not only but also because most of our lake/river data is so inaccurate that we might end up flooding large areas within airfields which are probably just being crossed by a single, small brook ;-) Also note that the grass areas in and around airfields do also serve the reasonable purpose of keeping random vegetation and other partially automated stuff away from runways. Therefore I'd recommend not to generally ditch these grass areas but instead to make them optional on a by-airfield basis. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
Hi there, In the experimenting I've done with my local region scenery I used vastly more accurate lake, river, road, rail, and landclass data to generate my custom scenery. The amount of disk space gobbled up by the custom scenery I built was no bigger than that taken up by the default - that surprised me in a good way. :-) If better data is available to build more accurate scenery then I think by all means we should use it. The next time a build is going to happen for the world scenery on the fg website I've got the shapefiles I used to generate my scenery so I'm happy to forward it to someone for use. The licence its under will allow that I believe. Regards, Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE. From: Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Fri, 10 December, 2010 4:38:49 AM Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping J. Holden wrote: For an airport like Innsbruck, where the airport automatically generated grass polygon juts into the river cs_lake, or like Honolulu or Macau, when there is a lake in the middle of the airfield, would it be possible to take a lake layer (or the lake layer) and burn the water texture into the airfield before any of the taxiways are applied? Yes, in the not so distant future this should well be possible - at least technically. Yet I'd like to point out that this is going to open a new can of worms, not only but also because most of our lake/river data is so inaccurate that we might end up flooding large areas within airfields which are probably just being crossed by a single, small brook ;-) Also note that the grass areas in and around airfields do also serve the reasonable purpose of keeping random vegetation and other partially automated stuff away from runways. Therefore I'd recommend not to generally ditch these grass areas but instead to make them optional on a by-airfield basis. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
Hey Scott, The Brisbane scenery thing was partly a test - some things worked well, others not so well. Next will be to rebuild Australasia. My goal is to use better data for rivers, lakes, roads, rail, and modify landcover to match local features like parks etc. 3D buildings in all major cities. Improve the airport runway/taxiway/apron layouts. Help finish the neat AI stuff that Innis did. 3D models of terminals and airport infrastructure. There are things like braided rivers in NZ that will need some work to make look good, but I have some ideas for those and other natural features. It will be a huge job, and I make no predictions of when it will be done. I'll start grabbing the data first, but a Phenom 2 X6 superPC will be needed to build it all - ooops, I better ask she who must be obeyed if thats OK for me to buy - damn joint bank accounts... :-) Regards, Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE. From: Scott Hamilton scott.hamil...@popplanet.biz To: blobster...@yahoo.com.au Sent: Fri, 10 December, 2010 9:43:13 AM Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping Hey Chris, Would this be for all of Aus, or just BNE? Be very happy to see better terrain and landuse scenery for the rest of Australia. S. On Thu, 2010-12-09 at 13:25 -0800, Chris Wilkinson wrote: Hi there, In the experimenting I've done with my local region scenery I used vastly more accurate lake, river, road, rail, and landclass data to generate my custom scenery. The amount of disk space gobbled up by the custom scenery I built was no bigger than that taken up by the default - that surprised me in a good way. :-) If better data is available to build more accurate scenery then I think by all means we should use it. The next time a build is going to happen for the world scenery on the fg website I've got the shapefiles I used to generate my scenery so I'm happy to forward it to someone for use. The licence its under will allow that I believe. Regards, Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE. From:Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net To:flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent:Fri, 10 December, 2010 4:38:49 AM Subject:Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping J. Holden wrote: For an airport like Innsbruck, where the airport automatically generated grass polygon juts into the river cs_lake, or like Honolulu or Macau, when there is a lake in the middle of the airfield, would it be possible to take a lake layer (or the lake layer) and burn the water texture into the airfield before any of the taxiways are applied? Yes, in the not so distant future this should well be possible - at least technically. Yet I'd like to point out that this is going to open a new can of worms, not only but also because most of our lake/river data is so inaccurate that we might end up flooding large areas within airfields which are probably just being crossed by a single, small brook ;-) Also note that the grass areas in and around airfields do also serve the reasonable purpose of keeping random vegetation and other partially automated stuff away from runways. Therefore I'd recommend not to generally ditch these grass areas but instead to make them optional on a by-airfield basis. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel ** This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain privileged information or confidential information or both. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender. ** -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
On Thursday 09 December 2010 11:38:49 Martin Spott wrote: J. Holden wrote: For an airport like Innsbruck, where the airport automatically generated grass polygon juts into the river cs_lake, or like Honolulu or Macau, when there is a lake in the middle of the airfield, would it be possible to take a lake layer (or the lake layer) and burn the water texture into the airfield before any of the taxiways are applied? Yes, in the not so distant future this should well be possible - at least technically. Yet I'd like to point out that this is going to open a new can of worms, not only but also because most of our lake/river data is so inaccurate that we might end up flooding large areas within airfields which are probably just being crossed by a single, small brook ;-) Also note that the grass areas in and around airfields do also serve the reasonable purpose of keeping random vegetation and other partially automated stuff away from runways. Therefore I'd recommend not to generally ditch these grass areas but instead to make them optional on a by-airfield basis. Cheers, Martin. Martin, One idea I've had, but never implemented, was to scale the grass area around a cutout by the size of the cutout. Some smaller fields, like UT40, have a grass area many times bigger than the airport itself. The real version of this airport (to the extent we can even call it an airport!) is surrounded by trees and houses. The clear area around the cut-out is way too big. Ron -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airport Water Clipping
Chris - and whoever is having custom land cover data on their hard disks, Chris Wilkinson wrote: If better data is available to build more accurate scenery then I think by all means we should use it. The next time a build is going to happen for the world scenery on the fg website I've got the shapefiles I used to generate my scenery so I'm happy to forward it to someone for use. The licence its under will allow that I believe. Please negotiate with John Holden, who started this thread. John has already done some fantastic improvements to our land cover collection - like in this area: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/map/?lon=-72.7lat=42.4zoom=10layers=B00FT and he's pretty familiar with the requirements. As a general hint I'd say: Please be careful wrt. the license. As an example, don't blindly copy features from OpenStreetMap - their license and ours are somewhat (still) irreconcilable. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
