Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
Giles Robertson wrote: So we put in a parameter that affects how directional the sound is, with different values for different viewpoints (tower, chase, cockpit). O.k., I managed to understand :-) I think in this case it would be lerr error-prone to simply add a 3D location relative to the aircraft (VRP or whatever) plus _one_ flag to every sound-event that tells about the location of the event (panel/cabin/airframe/not_on_this_aircraft). When you have this, then the viewer can determine how to manipulate the sound in order to make it suitable for the current view (and view direction), Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
David Megginson schrieb: I think that the directional sound will be very interesting for external views, and might also be useful for near midair collisions, but in general, I don't think it's much use inside the cockpit. The only cases I can think of where we need directional sound in the cockpit are the warning sounds (overkill) and the stewardess telling you dinner is ready - or was that my girlfriend? CU, Christian :) ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
On Thursday 29 Apr 2004 6:40 am, Martin Spott wrote: I _strongly_ support Arnt's idea of 3D coordinates for the sound/noise sources. To complete the picture I'd suggest binding the listener's ear positions to the view direction (implemented somewhere in the viewer mechanics in order to make it work in _every_ view that might be invented in the future). In the long run people will want to hear the left engine of a C310 from the _front_ when they turn the cockpit view to the left, they will want to have a realistic noise location on a walkaround or any other view that moves relative to the aircraft. You could also add noise to any stationary object on the ground - not that I'd want to make FlightGear as noisy as the real world Seconded - this is very important for first-person games [0], but it would be good to have, for instance surround wind noise, engine noise from the engine directions and ATIS speaking from the speakers. Oh, hold on. In a real plane, I've got headphones, haven't I... Their purpose is to deaden ambient noise, and remove stereo cues from sound communications! joke Since the field-of-view control gives me a virtual telescope, can we have field-of listen zooming, to simulate directional parabolic ears? /joke Regards Jonathan [0] By which I mean, it has been done already for a number of OpenAL applications. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
Jonathan Richards wrote: Seconded - this is very important for first-person games [0], but it would be good to have, for instance surround wind noise, engine noise from the engine directions and ATIS speaking from the speakers. Oh, hold on. In a real plane, I've got headphones, haven't I... Their purpose is to deaden ambient noise, and remove stereo cues from sound communications! Yep, but when you're sitting in your favourite light single and you turn your head over to your co (or passengers) you'll still hear most of the engine noise on your left ear - even with headset applied. If something hits the aircraft during flight I assume you'll still notice where the crash happened (I hope it will _never_ happen !!) by the direction the noise comes from, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
Martin Spott wrote: Yep, but when you're sitting in your favourite light single and you turn your head over to your co (or passengers) you'll still hear most of the engine noise on your left ear - even with headset applied. If something hits the aircraft during flight I assume you'll still notice where the crash happened (I hope it will _never_ happen !!) by the direction the noise comes from, Personally, I've never noticed any sense of directional hearing while flying -- the engine and wind noise seeps into the aircraft all over the place, through vents, cracks in loose-fitting doors, etc. etc., and in such a small cabin, everything is going to echo and come from all sides anyway. Turning my head does not seem to make a difference. All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
joke AFAIK that isn't possible because the earpoint would change whether you were looking at the ground in front or the air 10 miles away. What shouldn't be hard is to take an audio feed from a different location from the viewpoint, but not much might happen if the audio hasn't been initialised because you aren't there yet ... /joke Giles -Original Message- From: Jonathan Richards [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 April 2004 08:44 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds On Thursday 29 Apr 2004 6:40 am, Martin Spott wrote: I _strongly_ support Arnt's idea of 3D coordinates for the sound/noise sources. To complete the picture I'd suggest binding the listener's ear positions to the view direction (implemented somewhere in the viewer mechanics in order to make it work in _every_ view that might be invented in the future). In the long run people will want to hear the left engine of a C310 from the _front_ when they turn the cockpit view to the left, they will want to have a realistic noise location on a walkaround or any other view that moves relative to the aircraft. You could also add noise to any stationary object on the ground - not that I'd want to make FlightGear as noisy as the real world Seconded - this is very important for first-person games [0], but it would be good to have, for instance surround wind noise, engine noise from the engine directions and ATIS speaking from the speakers. Oh, hold on. In a real plane, I've got headphones, haven't I... Their purpose is to deaden ambient noise, and remove stereo cues from sound communications! joke Since the field-of-view control gives me a virtual telescope, can we have field-of listen zooming, to simulate directional parabolic ears? /joke Regards Jonathan [0] By which I mean, it has been done already for a number of OpenAL applications. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
David Megginson said: Martin Spott wrote: Yep, but when you're sitting in your favourite light single and you turn your head over to your co (or passengers) you'll still hear most of the engine noise on your left ear - even with headset applied. If something hits the aircraft during flight I assume you'll still notice where the crash happened (I hope it will _never_ happen !!) by the direction the noise comes from, Personally, I've never noticed any sense of directional hearing while flying -- the engine and wind noise seeps into the aircraft all over the place, through vents, cracks in loose-fitting doors, etc. etc., and in such a small cabin, everything is going to echo and come from all sides anyway. Turning my head does not seem to make a difference. Lower frequencies especially would be hard to detect direction anyway even without the hard surfaces. This reminds me of the engine out protocol on light twins, which seems to assume that you won't hear which engine is silent. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
Jim Wilson wrote: Lower frequencies especially would be hard to detect direction anyway even without the hard surfaces. This reminds me of the engine out protocol on light twins, which seems to assume that you won't hear which engine is silent. That's an excellent point -- there are several procedures for identifying which engine is out, and none of them has to do with directional sound. Essentially, the engine noise is transmitted through the entire airframe, and you're doing the equivalent of sitting inside a loudspeaker. I think that the directional sound will be very interesting for external views, and might also be useful for near midair collisions, but in general, I don't think it's much use inside the cockpit. All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
That would argue for a variable for each viewpoint changing the directionality of the sound (i.e the size of the magnitude of difference between the speakers). Howe easy would this be to implement? Giles -Original Message- From: David Megginson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 April 2004 15:34 To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds Jim Wilson wrote: Lower frequencies especially would be hard to detect direction anyway even without the hard surfaces. This reminds me of the engine out protocol on light twins, which seems to assume that you won't hear which engine is silent. That's an excellent point -- there are several procedures for identifying which engine is out, and none of them has to do with directional sound. Essentially, the engine noise is transmitted through the entire airframe, and you're doing the equivalent of sitting inside a loudspeaker. I think that the directional sound will be very interesting for external views, and might also be useful for near midair collisions, but in general, I don't think it's much use inside the cockpit. All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
Giles Robertson wrote: That would argue for a variable for each viewpoint changing the directionality of the sound (i.e the size of the magnitude of difference between the speakers). No - at least not as long as I don't misunderstand your point ;-) From an engineers point of view (I _am_ an engineer but not a software architect, so peopülemight disagree) it would be sufficient to give each source of noise a 3D location and bind the listeners ears directly to the viewpoint and -direction. The rest would be pretty simple calculöaions of angle and distance, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
Giles Robertson wrote: That would argue for a variable for each viewpoint changing the directionality of the sound (i.e the size of the magnitude of difference between the speakers). No - at least not as long as I don't misunderstand your point ;-) I'll give an example. In a fictional world, you are facing north, and can't turn, or anything. On your left, you have a one sound (A), and on the right, another (B). Should there be no reflection at all (and diffraction round to your ear will be minimal), you will get nearly all A sound through the left ear, and all B sound through the right ear. Now imagine that you are sitting in a (vastly simplified) cockpit. Because it distributes sound, you can't hear where either A or B are coming from. So we have at least two scenarios - one where all sounds are *only* heard from where they originate, and one where there's no directional sound (sounds are heard equally for all places). Obviously, this is in fact a sliding scale from one to the other. And in some scenarios (tower view) we are pretty close to one end of the scale, and in others (cockpit) we are pretty close to the other end. So we put in a parameter that affects how directional the sound is, with different values for different viewpoints (tower, chase, cockpit). What I don't know is how to implement this, because I've never used OpenAL. Giles Robertson -Original Message- From: Martin Spott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 April 2004 18:49 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds From an engineers point of view (I _am_ an engineer but not a software architect, so peopülemight disagree) it would be sufficient to give each source of noise a 3D location and bind the listeners ears directly to the viewpoint and -direction. The rest would be pretty simple calculöaions of angle and distance, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:54:41 -0500, Curtis wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have added a way to position sounds in the cockpit via the aircraft-sound.xml file. For any sound you can add: position x-2.0/x y0.0/y z0.0/z /position This positions a sound in cockpit coordinates. -X is left, +X is right, +Y is up, -Y is down, +Z is back, -Z is forward. This should be a right hand coordinate system. ..by 'cockpit coordinates' you mean pilot coordinates, with the origo between the pilots ears? Wouldn't the 3D model's coordinates be easier to use? At least in the long run, when people start making everthing making noises? ..FWIW, I saw an article (waaay back) on some BangOlufsen research on audio engineering, where they wound up with a human head model as the best microfone mount platform, to recreate almost the true acoustics of the concert hall, church choir etc recordings, on playback on a stereo rig in residental living room with those kinda acoustics. Some similar approach help us simulate the somewhat different sound you hear say when moving to the right hand seat. Check out the c310 for an example. I put all the left engine sounds out left and the right engine sounds to the right. Regards, Curt. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
Curtis L. Olson wrote: I have added a way to position sounds in the cockpit via the aircraft-sound.xml file. For any sound you can add: position x-2.0/x y0.0/y z0.0/z /position This positions a sound in cockpit coordinates. -X is left, +X is right, +Y is up, -Y is down, +Z is back, -Z is forward. This should be a right hand coordinate system. Check out the c310 for an example. I put all the left engine sounds out left and the right engine sounds to the right. Do you plan to modify the listener position and orientation according to the view settings ? The positional effect is already great. Thanks for your efforts. -Fred ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Positional sounds
Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:54:41 -0500, Curtis wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have added a way to position sounds in the cockpit via the aircraft-sound.xml file. [...] This positions a sound in cockpit coordinates. -X is left, +X is right, +Y is up, -Y is down, +Z is back, -Z is forward. This should be a right hand coordinate system. Wouldn't the 3D model's coordinates be easier to use? At least in the long run, when people start making everthing making noises? I _strongly_ support Arnt's idea of 3D coordinates for the sound/noise sources. To complete the picture I'd suggest binding the listener's ear positions to the view direction (implemented somewhere in the viewer mechanics in order to make it work in _every_ view that might be invented in the future). In the long run people will want to hear the left engine of a C310 from the _front_ when they turn the cockpit view to the left, they will want to have a realistic noise location on a walkaround or any other view that moves relative to the aircraft. You could also add noise to any stationary object on the ground - not that I'd want to make FlightGear as noisy as the real world Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
