Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views --- continued
Michael Selig wrote: I just did a cvs update in the process of updating some uiuc files, e.g. the recorder files which had some issues and I want to put the new ones on the fgfs cvs. In the process of doing the updates, I have found that the two chase views we had are now ***very*** different. There's a lag effect that is giving me serious vertigo and there's roll now as well which is compounding the vertigo. Can the person who set this up (and I recall the thread but I cannot find it) create a --disable-lagged-chase-view option so that we can get back the old views when we want them. Early I suggested that whatever happens I'd like to be able to still use the old views. That's why I started the thread. I think the idea of a chase view in an following aircraft kind of way is a nice addition, but it adds another view to the 'v' key. I personally feel three views bound the the 'v' key should be the maximum. Maybe we should reconsider the function keys (F1 .. F12) and decide we should reshuffle them a bit so that we can use at least F1 .. F8 for views. There are a couple of function keys that already lost their functionality, so it shouldn't be too hard. In the mean time I I'll comment out the damping factors until we decide how to handle this. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 03:04:11PM -, Jim Wilson wrote: Hmm, this makes me think we could use the Linux way of switching text consoles: alt+F1 ... alt+F8 - 8 different views! I know there's at least one flight simulator that toggles views with the function keys. Maybe it's ACM (I didn't use ACM for 7 years or so ). We must be careful not to intefere with Linux' console switching, As far as I remember, you need CTRL+ALT+Fx to switch console under X. Right. I don't think we're using any ALT key bindings. Are there compatibility issues here? Can we do ALT? I think many windowmanagers (and windows itself, Alt+F4) use Alt for their purposes. I'd like to have Alt free for System and Windowmanager stuff. I'm thinking along the lines of emacs: Control for most shortcuts, and Meta for others (which the user could map to Alt, or Windoze keys, or whatever) In blender eg. i can't use some Alt- shortcuts since i've have some Alt- mapped for my windowmanager (ion). Regards, Manuel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
Erik Hofman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, this makes me think we could use the Linux way of switching text consoles: alt+F1 ... alt+F8 - 8 different views! I know there's at least one flight simulator that toggles views with the function keys. Maybe it's ACM (I didn't use ACM for 7 years or so ). We must be careful not to intefere with Linux' console switching, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
Martin Spott wrote: Erik Hofman wrote: Hmm, this makes me think we could use the Linux way of switching text consoles: alt+F1 ... alt+F8 - 8 different views! I know there's at least one flight simulator that toggles views with the function keys. Maybe it's ACM (I didn't use ACM for 7 years or so ). We must be careful not to intefere with Linux' console switching, As far as I remember, you need CTRL+ALT+Fx to switch console under X. -Fred ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
Jim Wilson wrote: One option would be to just leave the v the way it is and come up with a key combo that jumps directly to the two views you want to access easily. CTRL+v goes directly to view 1 now. Maybe something else could go directly to view 2 how about CTRL+SHIFT+V? Or actually CTRL+V could go to View 1 if you are on any other view, and go to View 2 if you are already on View 1making it a jump to and toggle. Hmm, this makes me think we could use the Linux way of switching text consoles: alt+F1 ... alt+F8 - 8 different views! Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
Jim Wilson writes: I'm in agreement here. Actually Fly! II has something like 10 views on the single key. I used to lose control of the plane in FLY! trying to get back to pilot view. The worse thing was when I hit the wrong key, and started getting the view from the AI planes. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Views
Lee Elliott writes: On Monday 14 July 2003 01:59, Norman Vine wrote: Nothing says you can't change your local source The following reverts to the previous HUD Ta for that but I'd rather manage with the standard FG as far as possible. I'm already using a modified hud_ladr and panel but even doing that isn't really a good option if I want to stay compatible. Bah. :-) attached find patches that implement a new option --enable-hud-3d default --disable-hud-3d Note that the disable variant also reverts the HUD Ladder 'compression factor'. The compression is 'sticky' ie what is set at startup is what you get for the duration of the run, this however is not the case for the 3D HUD which can be toggled with the internal property browser Would someone with CVS privilidge please commit these Enjoy Norman hud3d.diff Description: Binary data ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
David Megginson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Jim Wilson writes: I'm in agreement here. Actually Fly! II has something like 10 views on the single key. I used to lose control of the plane in FLY! trying to get back to pilot view. The worse thing was when I hit the wrong key, and started getting the view from the AI planes. I know what you mean...although a big part for me was I didn't use it often enough to become good at hitting the right keys. For some, having to use the menu during flight will be just as disasterous. From a user interface point of view, the current mouse setup is pretty lame anyway. Anyone ever crash because they had the mouse in control mode when they went to use the menu in a hurry? Oh well...maybe it's just me :-) It doesn't seem that we have the Fly! problem though or we don't have to. What I'm suggesting is that we use another key for the limited number of views and leave 'v/V' alone. If folks really want to use 'v/V' for something shorter then we could move the full list of views to another key. But I think we can come up with some clever bindings to make something more useful. What do folks think about the idea of using CTRL+v to bring up the cockpit as it does now and then if CTRL+v is hit again when the cockpit is already displayed, make it toggle over to the chase view? Thus CTRL+v will be used to toggle between the two most used views and 'v/V' will still be used for scrolling through the rest. Another option would be to put the seldom used hotspot display that is now on CTRL+c somewhere else and make that the key for toggling between cockpit and chase views. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
Here's my opinion on the views: I like to switch views a lot and have remapped the num pad so that those views are no longer shifted since I use the joystick and not the unshifted num keys. I'm not sure what the numbers accross the top do... Hittin just one key and not a combo to switch veiws seems to be easiest for me. I have to look down to be sure of what I'm hitting and that seems less natural (Im not the best typist :/) Also, for individual views, the left side of the keyboard is easier to get at, unless there's a lot of left handed ppl, my right hand is alway on the joystick. --- ! end of my opinion ! -- Re's Willy B On Sunday 13 July 2003 19:06, Jim Wilson wrote: Michael Selig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: But again, I'd rather keep all current v-key views. It's a lot faster hitting a single key than mousing around while trying to fly. I'm in agreement here. Actually Fly! II has something like 10 views on the single key. Now I haven't used Fly! II all that much and wouldn't suggest that 10 is or is not a good number. But I think whatever we do should be keyboard accessible and it just makes sense to me to have them all there. Especially since you can bind directly to a view if you don't want to scroll. One option would be to just leave the v the way it is and come up with a key combo that jumps directly to the two views you want to access easily. CTRL+v goes directly to view 1 now. Maybe something else could go directly to view 2 how about CTRL+SHIFT+V? Or actually CTRL+V could go to View 1 if you are on any other view, and go to View 2 if you are already on View 1making it a jump to and toggle. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Views
Norman Vine wrote: attached find patches that implement a new option --enable-hud-3d default --disable-hud-3d Note that the disable variant also reverts the HUD Ladder 'compression factor'. The compression is 'sticky' ie what is set at startup is what you get for the duration of the run, this however is not the case for the 3D HUD which can be toggled with the internal property browser Ooops I didn't add entries for these to the help file Would someone with CVS privilige please commit these Thanks Norman $ cvs diff -u options.xml Index: options.xml === RCS file: /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/options.xml,v retrieving revision 1.19 diff -u -r1.19 options.xml --- options.xml 22 Jun 2003 09:44:56 - 1.19 +++ options.xml 14 Jul 2003 18:03:33 - @@ -215,6 +215,16 @@ descriptionstrings/enable-anti-alias-hud-desc/description /option + option +namedisable-hud-3d/name +descriptionstrings/disable-hud-3d-desc/description + /option + + option +nameenable-hud-3d/name +descriptionstrings/enable-hud-3d-desc/description + /option + /section section ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
Norman Vine wrote: Ooops I didn't add entries for these to the help file Would someone with CVS privilige please commit these Too late. I had already modified it. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Views
At 7/14/03, Norman Vine wrote: Lee Elliott writes: On Monday 14 July 2003 01:59, Norman Vine wrote: Nothing says you can't change your local source The following reverts to the previous HUD Ta for that but I'd rather manage with the standard FG as far as possible. I'm already using a modified hud_ladr and panel but even doing that isn't really a good option if I want to stay compatible. Bah. :-) attached find patches that implement a new option --enable-hud-3d default --disable-hud-3d Note that the disable variant also reverts the HUD Ladder 'compression factor'. The compression is 'sticky' ie what is set at startup is what you get for the duration of the run, this however is not the case for the 3D HUD which can be toggled with the internal property browser Would someone with CVS privilidge please commit these Thank you! Regards, Michael ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
On Monday 14 July 2003 13:37, Norman Vine wrote: Lee Elliott writes: On Monday 14 July 2003 01:59, Norman Vine wrote: Nothing says you can't change your local source The following reverts to the previous HUD Ta for that but I'd rather manage with the standard FG as far as possible. I'm already using a modified hud_ladr and panel but even doing that isn't really a good option if I want to stay compatible. Bah. :-) attached find patches that implement a new option --enable-hud-3d default --disable-hud-3d Note that the disable variant also reverts the HUD Ladder 'compression factor'. The compression is 'sticky' ie what is set at startup is what you get for the duration of the run, this however is not the case for the 3D HUD which can be toggled with the internal property browser Would someone with CVS privilidge please commit these Enjoy Norman It's always good to have options. ;) LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
At 7/12/03, Erik wrote: Hi, I noticed the number of views accessible using the 'v' is increasing. I think it's a good idea to have a number of views, but I propose to limit the views accessible using the 'v' key to a maximum of three and only for views that are directly related to the aircraft. For other views I would propose to use a menu entry instead. That sounds fine with me. But if it were up to me, I'd keep all the views. I would like to ask, however, that a view menu structure be in place before removing the current various 'v'-key views. Regards, Michael ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
Erik Hofman writes: I mean we now have a tower view, we might come up with a final Approach view and someday somebody will come by and asks for a windsock view. Those are really candidates for a view selection dialog. Two truly useful ones would be a ground-chase view and a nearest-airport view. When you're flying anything but a circuit, the control tower view gets useless very fast. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
On 12 Jul 2003 22:49:22 +0100, Christopher S Horler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like the idea of a menu for views... Is there a way to reset the view - I sometimes move the view outside of the plane around. I would like to see it simple - two views one of the outside and one of the cockpit (cycled by v). Then Ctrl v could be bound to resetting the view. All remaining views and customized views specified in some xml file could be in the 'view' menu. snip How about two basic views on 'v' in the standard setup, the rest on a menu and a capability to select items off the menu (or at least in XML) for addition to the 'v' (need a better term, 'hotkey views'?) views? One nice feature would be the ability to group sets of views together and switch between sets of 'hotkey' views. The user could, for example, set up view sets such as 'Landing', 'Taxi', 'Flight Test', '3D Model Test' ... Rick -- David Farrent and Dougie O'Hara on the Cold War role of the ROC: 'What a world of sorrow is hidden in those few words - [Post attack] crew changes would have been based on crew availability.' ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
On Sunday 13 July 2003 10:54, David Megginson wrote: Erik Hofman writes: I mean we now have a tower view, we might come up with a final Approach view and someday somebody will come by and asks for a windsock view. Those are really candidates for a view selection dialog. Two truly useful ones would be a ground-chase view and a nearest-airport view. When you're flying anything but a circuit, the control tower view gets useless very fast. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ I think a ground chase view would be great. I'd also like an air chase view that follows bearing but that shows gust and turbulence effects but something like that has been proposed, I think;) As for putting some of the views in menus - hmm... I'm less keen about that because when I change views I want to do it quickly and often I'll only want to check a view for a second. For example, when landing I'll often quickly switch between the cockpit, the two chase views and the tower views, using different magnication and orientation settings for each view, and spending less than a second in most of them. I suspect this would be tricky to do if some of them could only be accessed via a drop down menu - the moment would have passed and I'd have had to move one of my hands from the js or kb to grab the mouse. Setting up the views with some of them in a menu would be ok by default if it was still easy to add the extra entries to the kb list. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
I agree with this completely. I do the same. I was wondering about an additional feature... Other than recording entire flights, I've never seen what my own [attempted] landing looked like Would it be possible to add a feature where the simulation would immediately be paused, and rewinded for say, 5 seconds to give an instant replay? When the replay catches up to simulation time, simply return to the paused state? Then, during the replay, I can watch from a chase or tower view, etc. Yes, my entire world was affected by my purchase of a TiVo. ;) -Matt Lee Elliott wrote: On Sunday 13 July 2003 10:54, David Megginson wrote: Erik Hofman writes: I mean we now have a tower view, we might come up with a final Approach view and someday somebody will come by and asks for a windsock view. Those are really candidates for a view selection dialog. Two truly useful ones would be a ground-chase view and a nearest-airport view. When you're flying anything but a circuit, the control tower view gets useless very fast. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ I think a ground chase view would be great. I'd also like an air chase view that follows bearing but that shows gust and turbulence effects but something like that has been proposed, I think;) As for putting some of the views in menus - hmm... I'm less keen about that because when I change views I want to do it quickly and often I'll only want to check a view for a second. For example, when landing I'll often quickly switch between the cockpit, the two chase views and the tower views, using different magnication and orientation settings for each view, and spending less than a second in most of them. I suspect this would be tricky to do if some of them could only be accessed via a drop down menu - the moment would have passed and I'd have had to move one of my hands from the js or kb to grab the mouse. Setting up the views with some of them in a menu would be ok by default if it was still easy to add the extra entries to the kb list. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
At 7/13/03, Erik wrote: Michael Selig wrote: I would like to ask, however, that a view menu structure be in place before removing the current various 'v'-key views. That was the intention. Did something go wrong? Something go wrong --- I did not mean to imply that. I've not done a cvs check-out lately. My main point in making the comment was let's not lose capability along the way! But again, I'd rather keep all current v-key views. It's a lot faster hitting a single key than mousing around while trying to fly. At a minimum, I'd like to keep three views that function w/ the v-key: - cockpit of course - chase (external) - chase (external w/ fixed view direction, e.g. always looks North or whatever direction w/ the mouse) With the latter two, it'd be really nice to get back the 2D HUD (vs the 3D one that moves around). I used the old 2D HUD a lot w/ demos and in my own model development. Regards, Michael ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
On Monday 14 July 2003 00:35, Michael Selig wrote: At 7/13/03, Erik wrote: Michael Selig wrote: I would like to ask, however, that a view menu structure be in place before removing the current various 'v'-key views. That was the intention. Did something go wrong? Something go wrong --- I did not mean to imply that. I've not done a cvs check-out lately. My main point in making the comment was let's not lose capability along the way! But again, I'd rather keep all current v-key views. It's a lot faster hitting a single key than mousing around while trying to fly. At a minimum, I'd like to keep three views that function w/ the v-key: - cockpit of course - chase (external) - chase (external w/ fixed view direction, e.g. always looks North or whatever direction w/ the mouse) With the latter two, it'd be really nice to get back the 2D HUD (vs the 3D one that moves around). I used the old 2D HUD a lot w/ demos and in my own model development. Regards, Michael Same here about using the HUD for development. The mini HUD still works ok in rotated chase views though. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Views
Lee Elliott writes:
On Monday 14 July 2003 00:35, Michael Selig wrote:
With the latter two, it'd be really nice to get back the 2D HUD (vs the 3D
one that moves around). I used the old 2D HUD a lot w/ demos and in my own
model development.
Same here about using the HUD for development. The mini HUD still works ok in
rotated chase views though.
Nothing says you can't change your local source
The following reverts to the previous HUD
Norman
$ cvs diff hud.cxx | tee hud3d.diff
Index: hud.cxx
===
RCS file: /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/FlightGear/src/Cockpit/hud.cxx,v
retrieving revision 1.4
diff -r1.4 hud.cxx
245,246c245,246
if( HUD_style == 1)
{
---
//if( HUD_style == 1)
//{
248,250c248,250
factor = 1;
factor = (640./55.) / factor;
}
---
//factor = 1;
//factor = (640./55.) / factor;
//}
996,1000c996,1000
if( HUD_style == 1)
{
fgUpdateHUDVirtual();
return;
}
---
//if( HUD_style == 1)
//{
//fgUpdateHUDVirtual();
//return;
//}
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
... I propose to limit the views accessible using the 'v' key to a maximum of three and only for views that are directly related to the aircraft. For other views I would propose to use a menu entry instead. Good idea. -- David Culp [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
On 12 Jul 2003 15:08:00 GMT, Martin Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jim Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did you know that 'V' scrolls backwards through the views, and 'CTRL+v' returns to the first view? Whatever changes will be made, we should keep this behaviour, ..how about putting the _chase_ views on the c key etc? (if it is vacant) Groups all views nicely, IMHO. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
Jim Wilson wrote: Erik Hofman [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I noticed the number of views accessible using the 'v' is increasing. I think it's a good idea to have a number of views, but I propose to limit the views accessible using the 'v' key to a maximum of three and only for views that are directly related to the aircraft. For other views I would propose to use a menu entry instead. Did you know that 'V' scrolls backwards through the views, and 'CTRL+v' returns to the first view? Nope. But still ... I mean we now have a tower view, we might come up with a final Approach view and someday somebody will come by and asks for a windsock view. Those are really candidates for a view selection dialog. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Views
I like the idea of a menu for views... Is there a way to reset the view - I sometimes move the view outside of the plane around. I would like to see it simple - two views one of the outside and one of the cockpit (cycled by v). Then Ctrl v could be bound to resetting the view. All remaining views and customized views specified in some xml file could be in the 'view' menu. On Sat, 2003-07-12 at 22:35, Erik Hofman wrote: Jim Wilson wrote: Erik Hofman [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I noticed the number of views accessible using the 'v' is increasing. I think it's a good idea to have a number of views, but I propose to limit the views accessible using the 'v' key to a maximum of three and only for views that are directly related to the aircraft. For other views I would propose to use a menu entry instead. Did you know that 'V' scrolls backwards through the views, and 'CTRL+v' returns to the first view? Nope. But still ... I mean we now have a tower view, we might come up with a final Approach view and someday somebody will come by and asks for a windsock view. Those are really candidates for a view selection dialog. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Christopher S Horler [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
