Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:53:06 +0200 ThorstenB wrote: Initially, they are both 0 (no voltage output, hence the gyro isn't spinning). When full thrust is applied, voltage output goes to 115.0016 and the gyro starts spinning (voltage seems a bit high, but the code isn't simulating overvoltage failures ;-) ). It's only .0016V too high, probably safe enough ;-) It's on a 115V AC bus which has no alternative AC power available (no standby inverter feed) so requires a generator to be online, which in turn requires sufficient engine RPM. It shouldn't require full power - I think it's at least 60% on one engine - but I'd have to do some digging find the Pilot's Notes and check that value is right. Check the computation for /systems/electrical/outputs/DG in Aircraft/Lightning/Systems/lightning-electrical.nas. Something doesn't seem right. Thanks for investigating the issue... the Lightning electrical system almost certainly has logic bugs and omissions (I don't much enjoy working on electrics in real life and I seem to remember wanting to rewrite it at some point which never arrived.) I'd be very happy to supply the relevant electrical diagrams if anyone actually enjoys coding this kind of thing :-) AJ -- -- Don't let slow site performance ruin your business. Deploy New Relic APM Deploy New Relic app performance management and know exactly what is happening inside your Ruby, Python, PHP, Java, and .NET app Try New Relic at no cost today and get our sweet Data Nerd shirt too! http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrelic-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
The HSI is now stable, but does not agree with the other compasses. Is there a gyro alignment procedure that I need to learn? Alan -Original Message- From: AJ MacLeod Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 11:43 AM To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:53:06 +0200 ThorstenB wrote: Initially, they are both 0 (no voltage output, hence the gyro isn't spinning). When full thrust is applied, voltage output goes to 115.0016 and the gyro starts spinning (voltage seems a bit high, but the code isn't simulating overvoltage failures ;-) ). It's only .0016V too high, probably safe enough ;-) It's on a 115V AC bus which has no alternative AC power available (no standby inverter feed) so requires a generator to be online, which in turn requires sufficient engine RPM. It shouldn't require full power - I think it's at least 60% on one engine - but I'd have to do some digging find the Pilot's Notes and check that value is right. Check the computation for /systems/electrical/outputs/DG in Aircraft/Lightning/Systems/lightning-electrical.nas. Something doesn't seem right. Thanks for investigating the issue... the Lightning electrical system almost certainly has logic bugs and omissions (I don't much enjoy working on electrics in real life and I seem to remember wanting to rewrite it at some point which never arrived.) I'd be very happy to supply the relevant electrical diagrams if anyone actually enjoys coding this kind of thing :-) AJ -- -- Don't let slow site performance ruin your business. Deploy New Relic APM Deploy New Relic app performance management and know exactly what is happening inside your Ruby, Python, PHP, Java, and .NET app Try New Relic at no cost today and get our sweet Data Nerd shirt too! http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrelic-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Don't let slow site performance ruin your business. Deploy New Relic APM Deploy New Relic app performance management and know exactly what is happening inside your Ruby, Python, PHP, Java, and .NET app Try New Relic at no cost today and get our sweet Data Nerd shirt too! http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrelic-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
On 8 Oct 2012, at 14:35, Alan Teeder wrote: The HSI is now stable, but does not agree with the other compasses. Is there a gyro alignment procedure that I need to learn? Yes. It's one of the pilot's duties as part of the pre-start checklist ;-). Also something which needs to be done every 10-15 minutes when in flight, since the indication continuously drifts away. See here: http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/flight_training/fxd_wing/di.htm When the sim starts (or is reset), the initial indication should be aligned with the compass though. However, when the gyro isn't powered, the indication will be wrong as soon as the aircraft turns (offset). The HSI has a knob to adjust the indicator (see C172 cockpit), but it seems to missing in the Lightning. cheers, Thorsten -- Don't let slow site performance ruin your business. Deploy New Relic APM Deploy New Relic app performance management and know exactly what is happening inside your Ruby, Python, PHP, Java, and .NET app Try New Relic at no cost today and get our sweet Data Nerd shirt too! http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrelic-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
A further update with the HSI problem. If I taxi the Lightning the HSI starts operating normally, and does not fail when I apply the brakes. Something is not getting initialised I guess. This problem is identical on my laptop and desktop machines - both Windows 7, but with their own independent git, compile etc. histories. Alan -- Don't let slow site performance ruin your business. Deploy New Relic APM Deploy New Relic app performance management and know exactly what is happening inside your Ruby, Python, PHP, Java, and .NET app Try New Relic at no cost today and get our sweet Data Nerd shirt too! http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrelic-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
On 7 Oct 2012, at 09:06, Alan Teeder wrote: If I taxi the Lightning the HSI starts operating normally, and does not fail when I apply the brakes. Something is not getting initialised I guess. Watch the properties /systems/electrical/outputs/DG and /instrumentation/heading-indicator-dg/spin Initially, they are both 0 (no voltage output, hence the gyro isn't spinning). When full thrust is applied, voltage output goes to 115.0016 and the gyro starts spinning (voltage seems a bit high, but the code isn't simulating overvoltage failures ;-) ). When thrust is reduced, voltage output returns to 0, hence the gyro is slowing down again. Of course, a heading indicator isn't working properly when the gyro isn't spinning (no voltage supplied). Check the computation for /systems/electrical/outputs/DG in Aircraft/Lightning/Systems/lightning-electrical.nas. Something doesn't seem right. I have also pushed an update to fg which improves the failure simulation when gyro spin is low (at spin==0 the indicator should be completely stuck now). However, I haven't seen anything in there which could have been different for Windows vs Linux. cheers, Thorsten -- Don't let slow site performance ruin your business. Deploy New Relic APM Deploy New Relic app performance management and know exactly what is happening inside your Ruby, Python, PHP, Java, and .NET app Try New Relic at no cost today and get our sweet Data Nerd shirt too! http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrelic-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
-Original Message- From: Vivian Meazza Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 8:49 PM To: 'FlightGear developers discussions' Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning Alan wrote AJ With Debug-Browse Internal Properties I see that the properties instrumentation/heading-indicator are stable, but instrumentation/heading-indicator-dg are changing rapidly. When I press the Push Source button the HSI stops rotating and indicates North, but this does not agree with the RMI or Magnetic compass, which are in agreement with instrumentation/heading-indicator/indicated-heading- deg. The chirps in the engine sound exist in other aircraft to a greater or lesser degree. e.g. the Sea Vixen. With most it is barely audible, but with the Lightning and my TSR2 development it is very obtrusive. Hope this helps. Alan -Original Message- From: AJ MacLeod Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 6:03 PM To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:59:18 +0100 Alan Teeder wrote: The second problem is that the HSI spins continuously until the “Push Source” button at the bottom of the instrument is pressed. Pressing this button twice results in rotation once again. Hi Alan, I've made a few minor changes to the Lightning sounds and sound XML - sadly none of them fix the main issue you reported (it seems to be a wider FG issue as you say) but the warnings about stereo sounds are addressed. Vivian will hopefully be committing these changes at some point when he gets a moment - to my ears the startup sequence sounds a little bit better though if I had the time I think I'd do it differently... feel free to improve it in the meantime! The HSI issue on the other hand I don't see at all here so not sure what might be causing that unfortunately. Does anyone else have the same issue? AJ's update has been pushed. The stereo warnings should have gone away. However, I'm hearing noise spikes in the engine sound. I'm also seeing this error: ALC Error (sound manager): Invalid Enum at context creation. I'll try to analyse the sound to see if the noise spikes are present in the sound file. I can see no problem with the HSI either on the panel or in the property tree. HTH Vivian -- Today I have been very busy with my wine harvest, and am now sitting down to rest. In see the rotating HSI problem only with Windows. It is not there on Linux. Also on Linux the HSI agrees with the RMI and magnetic compass, which is not the case in Windows, where the HSI either remains stuck on North, or rotates depending on the source select switch. As a test, I disabled my private aircraft directory in case this was causing the problem. Sadly the Lightning HSI continued to spin. Tortoise git pull and diff tools declare that my fgdata, flightgear and simgear directories are all up to date and correct. I think that I will go and stir the wine. Just 750 litres this year! Alan -- Don't let slow site performance ruin your business. Deploy New Relic APM Deploy New Relic app performance management and know exactly what is happening inside your Ruby, Python, PHP, Java, and .NET app Try New Relic at no cost today and get our sweet Data Nerd shirt too! http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrelic-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:59:18 +0100 Alan Teeder wrote: The second problem is that the HSI spins continuously until the “Push Source” button at the bottom of the instrument is pressed. Pressing this button twice results in rotation once again. Hi Alan, I've made a few minor changes to the Lightning sounds and sound XML - sadly none of them fix the main issue you reported (it seems to be a wider FG issue as you say) but the warnings about stereo sounds are addressed. Vivian will hopefully be committing these changes at some point when he gets a moment - to my ears the startup sequence sounds a little bit better though if I had the time I think I'd do it differently... feel free to improve it in the meantime! The HSI issue on the other hand I don't see at all here so not sure what might be causing that unfortunately. Does anyone else have the same issue? AJ -- -- Don't let slow site performance ruin your business. Deploy New Relic APM Deploy New Relic app performance management and know exactly what is happening inside your Ruby, Python, PHP, Java, and .NET app Try New Relic at no cost today and get our sweet Data Nerd shirt too! http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrelic-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
Alan wrote AJ With Debug-Browse Internal Properties I see that the properties instrumentation/heading-indicator are stable, but instrumentation/heading-indicator-dg are changing rapidly. When I press the Push Source button the HSI stops rotating and indicates North, but this does not agree with the RMI or Magnetic compass, which are in agreement with instrumentation/heading-indicator/indicated-heading- deg. The chirps in the engine sound exist in other aircraft to a greater or lesser degree. e.g. the Sea Vixen. With most it is barely audible, but with the Lightning and my TSR2 development it is very obtrusive. Hope this helps. Alan -Original Message- From: AJ MacLeod Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 6:03 PM To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:59:18 +0100 Alan Teeder wrote: The second problem is that the HSI spins continuously until the “Push Source” button at the bottom of the instrument is pressed. Pressing this button twice results in rotation once again. Hi Alan, I've made a few minor changes to the Lightning sounds and sound XML - sadly none of them fix the main issue you reported (it seems to be a wider FG issue as you say) but the warnings about stereo sounds are addressed. Vivian will hopefully be committing these changes at some point when he gets a moment - to my ears the startup sequence sounds a little bit better though if I had the time I think I'd do it differently... feel free to improve it in the meantime! The HSI issue on the other hand I don't see at all here so not sure what might be causing that unfortunately. Does anyone else have the same issue? AJ's update has been pushed. The stereo warnings should have gone away. However, I'm hearing noise spikes in the engine sound. I'm also seeing this error: ALC Error (sound manager): Invalid Enum at context creation. I'll try to analyse the sound to see if the noise spikes are present in the sound file. I can see no problem with the HSI either on the panel or in the property tree. HTH Vivian -- Don't let slow site performance ruin your business. Deploy New Relic APM Deploy New Relic app performance management and know exactly what is happening inside your Ruby, Python, PHP, Java, and .NET app Try New Relic at no cost today and get our sweet Data Nerd shirt too! http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrelic-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:59:18 +0100 Alan Teeder wrote: Just a heads-up. A couple of faults with the current CVS have recently surfaced. The most irritating is a break-up of the engine sound once they have been started. There are also warnings about the use of a stereo file (Lightning/Sounds/avpin_combustion.wav, but I don´t think that this is related) I suspect this (startup sound sequence) might have been broken since the major changes to the FG sound system were made - or is it more recent? IMO it's a huge shame that stereo sounds are not supported any more, as the aural experience now just isn't as immersive (not to negate the real improvements that _were_ made of course). I'm not sure I understand why stereo can't be supported - couldn't the relative volumes / pitches of the two channels of the sound clip be adjusted fairly easily to provide positional cues? The second problem is that the HSI spins continuously until the “Push Source” button at the bottom of the instrument is pressed. Pressing this button twice results in rotation once again. Had no idea about this one, will try and look into it when I get a chance... Thanks for reporting these, a major shortage of spare time means I'm not able to be involved as I once was but would like to keep the stuff I have done working at least! AJ -- -- Got visibility? Most devs has no idea what their production app looks like. Find out how fast your code is with AppDynamics Lite. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219671;13503038;y? http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
AJ Thanks for the reply. I haven't looked at the Lightning for some time, but as my TSR2 (still in development) suddenly started producing funny glitches in the engine sound I went back to your Lightning, from which I had stolen this particular piece of code (many GPL thanks). Subsequently I have found the same problem, to various degrees, in other aircraft, including Sea Vixen. It hard to describe, but is a kind of background twittering. I hear the same effect in Linux and Windows. Off topic, whilst looking for further examples I found many aircraft that do not work. Concorde just crashes Flightgear, and several aircraft have translucent HUD and/or cockpits. This is with Rembrandt enabled. As Eric says stereo has been discontinued for some time, and he is the one to explain the benefits of this change. I think that there is a stereo effect still, as rotating the viewpoint causes significant volume changes, which must be based upon sound source position. This particular effect seems to me rather unrealistic, as when I turn my head in real life the noise of my surroundings does not change to such a great degree. Alan -Original Message- From: AJ MacLeod Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 2:02 PM To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:59:18 +0100 Alan Teeder wrote: Just a heads-up. A couple of faults with the current CVS have recently surfaced. The most irritating is a break-up of the engine sound once they have been started. There are also warnings about the use of a stereo file (Lightning/Sounds/avpin_combustion.wav, but I don´t think that this is related) I suspect this (startup sound sequence) might have been broken since the major changes to the FG sound system were made - or is it more recent? IMO it's a huge shame that stereo sounds are not supported any more, as the aural experience now just isn't as immersive (not to negate the real improvements that _were_ made of course). I'm not sure I understand why stereo can't be supported - couldn't the relative volumes / pitches of the two channels of the sound clip be adjusted fairly easily to provide positional cues? The second problem is that the HSI spins continuously until the “Push Source” button at the bottom of the instrument is pressed. Pressing this button twice results in rotation once again. Had no idea about this one, will try and look into it when I get a chance... Thanks for reporting these, a major shortage of spare time means I'm not able to be involved as I once was but would like to keep the stuff I have done working at least! AJ -- -- Got visibility? Most devs has no idea what their production app looks like. Find out how fast your code is with AppDynamics Lite. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219671;13503038;y? http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Got visibility? Most devs has no idea what their production app looks like. Find out how fast your code is with AppDynamics Lite. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219671;13503038;y? http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
On 1 Oct 2012, at 17:07, Alan Teeder wrote: Off topic, whilst looking for further examples I found many aircraft that do not work. Concorde just crashes Flightgear, and several aircraft have translucent HUD and/or cockpits. This is with Rembrandt enabled. Is the transparency issues Rembrandt specific? James -- Got visibility? Most devs has no idea what their production app looks like. Find out how fast your code is with AppDynamics Lite. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219671;13503038;y? http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
James I have just run a very quick check on a few aircraft. My apologies, but I should have used the word opaque and not translucent. F22 (jsbsim) has an opaque HUD, Mirage F1 has an opaque cockpit. They are both transparent when Rembrandt is disabled. The Saab Draken seems to have no cockpit. This is with or without Rembrandt enabled. Concorde crashes Flightgear at start-up. Again this is not affected by Rembrandt. As a general comment I find that the flying characteristics of most of the aircraft that I flipped through seem very unrealistic. They seem to be optimised for ease of use by non-pilots. This makes Flightgear appear to be a toy, or game, when it is capable of being an accurate flight simulator. IMHO this is a great pity. There are exceptions - e.g. the default Cessna 172, so it can be done. How can we encourage developers to pay as much attention to aerodynamics as they do to eye candy? Alan -Original Message- From: James Turner Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 5:48 PM To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning On 1 Oct 2012, at 17:07, Alan Teeder wrote: Off topic, whilst looking for further examples I found many aircraft that do not work. Concorde just crashes Flightgear, and several aircraft have translucent HUD and/or cockpits. This is with Rembrandt enabled. Is the transparency issues Rembrandt specific? James -- Got visibility? Most devs has no idea what their production app looks like. Find out how fast your code is with AppDynamics Lite. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219671;13503038;y? http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Engine sound and HSI problems with Lightning
On Monday, October 01, 2012 19:16:09 Alan Teeder wrote: James I have just run a very quick check on a few aircraft. My apologies, but I should have used the word opaque and not translucent. F22 (jsbsim) has an opaque HUD, Mirage F1 has an opaque cockpit. They are both transparent when Rembrandt is disabled. The Saab Draken seems to have no cockpit. This is with or without Rembrandt enabled. Concorde crashes Flightgear at start-up. Again this is not affected by Rembrandt. As a general comment I find that the flying characteristics of most of the aircraft that I flipped through seem very unrealistic. They seem to be optimised for ease of use by non-pilots. This makes Flightgear appear to be a toy, or game, when it is capable of being an accurate flight simulator. IMHO this is a great pity. There are exceptions - e.g. the default Cessna 172, so it can be done. How can we encourage developers to pay as much attention to aerodynamics as they do to eye candy? Alan Hi Alan, Most aircraft need to be ported for Rembrandt. The amount of porting necesary is in most cases proportional with the complexity of the eyecandy used before by said aircraft. For some is as simple as assigning an effect for transparent surfaces, for others it might require more involved work (might even require remodelling of some parts). That said, there are quite a few aircraft that have been ported. By the symptoms you describe it's most likely the f22 the Mirage and the Draken weren't ported yet. However I'm concerned with the Concorde errors, since I've adapted that one to Rembrandt, and it uses the same effects/shaders as the C172p. Regards, Emilian -- Got visibility? Most devs has no idea what their production app looks like. Find out how fast your code is with AppDynamics Lite. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219671;13503038;y? http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
