Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Am Samstag, den 25.02.2012, 22:32 +0100 schrieb HB-GRAL: Another example id livery and logos.. eg an airline that is defunct or BritishArwys as and exmaple.. Now their logo is their copyright.. Sorry I can not say anything about trademarks. Cheers, Yves In my opinion using trademarks like Lufthansa, BritishAirways, etc. under a GPL license ist not allowed. Even Microsoft does not use these trademarks for its livery in its Flight Simulator. And i don't think that not wanting to advertise other products is the only reason for that. If you find a company that sells aircrafts of MSFS or X-Plane with a livery of real trademarks, then they have asked for permission to do that. Best Regards, Oliver C. -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Am Sonntag, den 26.02.2012, 02:26 +0200 schrieb Stefan Gofferje: This was specifically an answer to Kreuzritter's suggestion to remove all links to custom scenery from all official FG websites to force people to create scenery for the central database. I would consider this kinda blackmailing or trying to force people into something. Of course, the project follows some rules and I don't have any problems with the fact that the scenery database is GPL'd and thus contributions must be GPL'd too. I would only have a problem with any attempt to subdue custom scenery, because IMHO, for the user it doesn't matter if the scenery is GPL'd, PD or any other license that allows for (cost-)free distribution and use. For the user it only matters to have pretty scenery. No, for a user it matters if he has to download a scenery from one place or from many partly incompatible scenerys scattered around the internet. The latter one, the MSFS way of doing thing, is a horrible mess for the user. That's why i suggest do promote the one scenery fits all way. Best Regards, Oliver C, -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Mathias Fröhlich wrote: Anyway, I hope you enjoy your life, family and children and I am looking forward to meet you again! Sure I think there's still a bottle of French wine left from your last visit ;-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
HB-GRAL wrote: Proposal for a first small meeting at #fg_scenery channel, this weekend: I tried to join for logging the session (in order to determine wether there are any open questions regarding the Scenemodels/MapServer infrastructure), but it seems I'm the only user there. Right ? Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Am 26.02.12 17:03, schrieb Martin Spott: HB-GRAL wrote: Proposal for a first small meeting at #fg_scenery channel, this weekend: I tried to join for logging the session (in order to determine wether there are any open questions regarding the Scenemodels/MapServer infrastructure), but it seems I'm the only user there. Right ? Martin. irc.flightgear.org -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
HB-GRAL wrote: irc.flightgear.org irc.flightgear.org != irc.freenode.net ??? Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
No, for a user it matters if he has to download a scenery from one place or from many partly incompatible scenerys scattered around the internet. Sorry, but being also a user I can tell you that it doesn't matter to me. And I'm pretty sure, a lot of others users as well! I fact, I have to say many thousand big Thanks to all developers who not only contribute their shapefiles to Martin's database, but also generate their sceneries and provide their work to all other users to test and use! Of course, it would be better to have them into one database aka TerraSync! TerraSync is a great feature, even outstanding compared to other Sims. But currently it only updates objects- no landclasses and other things. And that's the major problem all behind, as already said. If this would be solved, I'm sure more people would feel proud to add their work to TerrySync. Btw. my scenery settings looks like that: --fg-scenery=C:/Programme/FlightGear/LOWI_v850-v2_Scenery/LOWI_v850-v2_Scenery/Scenery;C:/Programme/FlightGear/EDDF-ELLX-ETAR;C:/Programme/FlightGear/flightgear-terrain;C:/Programme/FlightGear/Alaska;C:/Programme/FlightGear/terrasync Downloaded TerrySync files are still there, but only there where such detailed sceneries like Netherlands, Belgium and Statto's sceneries aren't available. The latter one, the MSFS way of doing thing, is a horrible mess for the user. That's why i suggest do promote the one scenery fits all way. It is a not a mess. To my knowledge we are still a FREE and OPEN source project. And so the user should be FREE and OPEN to decide which Scenery, aircraft etc. he wants to use. And I think that GNU GPL is already very powerful, and with that attracting. No need to force users to do anything- that is a bit against the OpenSource spirit of FGFS. Heiko still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
On 02/24/2012 02:35 PM, kreuzritter2000 wrote: In my opinion a key for success of 1.) is to NOT promote individual scenery projects on the official FlightGear places. So i suggest to remove all urls that do link to such individual scenery projects from the FlightGear website, the wiki and even postings on the flightgear forum. Especially the latter might be very important. With this you will reach 2 things: 1) A HUGE discussion and flamewar about censorship and freedom of speech in the forum which will eventually do a huge damage to the project and it's reputation. 2) Legions of heavily pissed users which then simply use Google to find their addon-scenery. 3) Likely new websites and forums coming up for Flightgear, causing a spread and segmentation of the userbase. What you will NOT achieve is that individual scenery designers stop working on their individual sceneries and start working on the global scenery. As Thorsten Renk made very clear to me in the forums, Flightgear works so that everybody works on what they are interested in. Not more and not less. I think, the licensing issue is maybe a bigger point than it's being given credit for. It seems to be very hard to create really pretty scenery which is GPL compatible. I'm not uptodate, but I remember something about e.g. CORINE being not GPL-compatible. The FG scenery-database, however, requires contributions to be GPL-compatible. Now we are back to what people are interested in... If I think about myself personally, if I would go through the hassle of compiling and learning to handle this monster Terragear, I would do it to create the best possible VFR scenery for Western Finland. That would be my interest. For Finland that would very likely include using non-GPL-compatible sources, because e.g. I haven't found any GPL-compatible good resolution elevation grid yet. However, I could obtain permission to use the elevation grid from the national survey service for the project, which would allow for free redistribution but it wouldn't be GPL-compatible. So whatever I would create, couldn't go to the scenery database. It is one thing if you yourself work by a certain system but trying to force people into your system is not only plain wrong - it will inevitably lead to people either leaving the central areas (i.e. forum) or even leaving the project as it is. You cannot publish free software and then try to blackmail people into doing stuff the way you want it. That's stupid and ridiculous. Tervehdys Suomesta / greetings from Finland, Stefan -- Stefan Gofferje | Web: http://stefan.gofferje.net/ (sgofferj/OH-SW) | Projects: http://www.saakeskus.fi/ | Com1: IAX2/k-tanco.louhen-sudet.fi/stefan FG OSBS, Opensuse 12.1, GeForce GTX560, Phenom X4 3200, 8GB RAM -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Yves wrote: Proposal for a first small meeting at #fg_scenery channel, this weekend: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=IRC+Meeting+%40+%23fg_sceneryiso=20120226T17p1=945ah=1 Won't be able to be there :( Rest of the week should be fine though... -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Martin, It's sad to hear that this central scenery database should have failed. I never cared myself much about how our scenery is built. This is just because all my interrests and work are in completely different corners of this project. So concentrating on other corners than scenery can just work if the scenery is *just available*. That saied, I always apprecheated this work and I strongly guess I am not alone with regard to this. Given the discussion that comes up due to this announcement, I hope that we can find a solution for a worldwide scenery that stays available and gets improoved. I think it's a huge step back if we just have plenty of small islands of scenery spread across independent sources. Anyway, I hope you enjoy your life, family and children and I am looking forward to meet you again! Mathias -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Stefan Gofferje wrote: I think, the licensing issue is maybe a bigger point than it's being given credit for. It seems to be very hard to create really pretty scenery which is GPL compatible. I'm not uptodate, but I remember something about e.g. CORINE being not GPL-compatible. This has changed. Two years ago (29 Jan 2010, to be precise) I've got confirmation from EEA which reads: The generic http://www.eea.europa.eu/legal/copyright also covers the datasets unless otherwise stated under the dataset webpage. Last time I downloaded CLC from EEA, there was no contradicting statement. OSM is still a problem until they switch over to ODbL. Thus if you're publishing Scenery with OSM roads, you're likely violating either the GPL or the current OSM license - depending on which license you choose for your package. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Am 25.02.12 14:28, schrieb Stefan Gofferje: Now we are back to what people are interested in... If I think about myself personally, if I would go through the hassle of compiling and learning to handle this monster Terragear, I would do it to create the best possible VFR scenery for Western Finland. That would be my interest. Hi Stefan What are you waiting, go for it! When I can help to keep the monster small, I will try to do it. From my experience building scenery I would say ... building Western Finland in a good matter will take approximate six months when you’re fast (while making the monster small will take two or three days). For Finland that would very likely include using non-GPL-compatible sources, because e.g. I haven't found any GPL-compatible good resolution elevation grid yet. Where have you been looking for? I can provide you some GPL compliant data when it is necessary. Just send me a note or ask at the forum. You cannot publish free software and then try to blackmail people into doing stuff the way you want it. That's stupid and ridiculous. I think no one is going to blackmail anyone recently. I’ve never seen censorship here before and I don’t like such approaches at all. But of course, like the GPL discussion shows, this project follows some rules. In my personal view it is not stupid and ridiculous to HELP new developers to follow this rules. Cheers, Yves -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
HB-GRAL wrote: Where have you been looking for? I can provide you some GPL compliant data when it is necessary. Just send me a note or ask at the forum. While you're at it: I saw several places where people were claiming CGIAR SRTM to be GPL compilant. Unless you're having ecplicit written permission, this is _not_ the case - the CGIAR SRTM site has pretty obvious terms of use for the data they provide. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Am 25.02.12 21:38, schrieb Martin Spott: HB-GRAL wrote: Where have you been looking for? I can provide you some GPL compliant data when it is necessary. Just send me a note or ask at the forum. While you're at it: I saw several places where people were claiming CGIAR SRTM to be GPL compilant. Unless you're having ecplicit written permission, this is _not_ the case - the CGIAR SRTM site has pretty obvious terms of use for the data they provide. Cheers, Martin. Hi Martin Yes, CGIAR data is not GPL compliant. I’am using it for my map and relief generation and I’ve got written permission for this. Cheers, Yves -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Can I ask a Muppet Question.. ?? copyright is always owned by authority of nav data.. eg caa, nats, eurocontrol.. So this data is theirs but were allowed to use Another example id livery and logos.. eg an airline that is defunct or BritishArwys as and exmaple.. Now their logo is their copyright.. So what I am trying to get at is the FRAND.. pedro -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Hi Pete Am 25.02.12 22:12, schrieb Pedro Morgan: Can I ask a Muppet Question.. ?? copyright is always owned by authority of nav data.. eg caa, nats, eurocontrol.. There are many different ways handling this data, by each region. FAA i.e. puts a lot of data into public domain, that is probably why sites like airnav.com exists. So this data is theirs but were allowed to use We are discussing distribution here, and not use, right? Another example id livery and logos.. eg an airline that is defunct or BritishArwys as and exmaple.. Now their logo is their copyright.. Sorry I can not say anything about trademarks. Cheers, Yves -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
So its a typical data distribution problem.. This is easy to solve.. with a few participants and testers.. pedro On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 9:32 PM, HB-GRAL flightg...@sablonier.ch wrote: Hi Pete Am 25.02.12 22:12, schrieb Pedro Morgan: Can I ask a Muppet Question.. ?? copyright is always owned by authority of nav data.. eg caa, nats, eurocontrol.. There are many different ways handling this data, by each region. FAA i.e. puts a lot of data into public domain, that is probably why sites like airnav.com exists. So this data is theirs but were allowed to use We are discussing distribution here, and not use, right? Another example id livery and logos.. eg an airline that is defunct or BritishArwys as and exmaple.. Now their logo is their copyright.. Sorry I can not say anything about trademarks. Cheers, Yves -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Hi Martin, I have no idea about the technical part you are doing behind the scenes to provide us a world in FG. But it's a fact, no world in FG, would make the rest useless. Terrasync and it's idea is somethings that have made FG stronger! All those who use it know the fabulous advantage it have. Look to the other commercial toys which just miss that! It has even been said on the FSBreak podcast this evening! (Hi Curt, hi Stuart! :D Thanks for the FG promotion btw!) Here, time by time i'm working on the Belgium scenery[1], which i host on gitorious[2] just because this all is in very earlier development. Even if my main goal is to get it available though terrasync, and still is. Most of the stuff is just about the base shapes who are waiting for details and being textured. It's all about user errors and testing different techniques. On the run, i discovered that a few airfields, like EBGB, EBTY, ... are just wrongly placed in the way that it's almost not acceptable nor usable in FG :/ Some other airfields have wrongly, interfering taxiways with airfield related objects... Pushing my objects to the scenerydb would just make the scenery bad. I don't feel to maintain two different, but same, sceneries. To fix this, and the time i learn all stuff and get away of these stupid user errors, i started to host it on gitorious. Also because i started to fix the airport layouts and regenerated the Terrains. Broken the terragear toys later on in run too. Lost tons of time trying to figure out what happen. To resume, i abandoned the regeneration of the Terrains (vmap0) because that all just eat a lot of time. Many of my apt.dat tweaks aren't finished and needs to be fine tuned. Nor are my Terrains files up to date with the apt.dat changes i have. I guess it's almost good for the trashcan. The apt850 (which will fix my main issues) and the rembrandt project who are currently in heavy development just give me more motivation to put that part on hold :) Because i'm sure that will request me to adjust again the same stuff. And anyway, that give me the time to concentrate on the objects itself. It might be a bad idea to abandon the scenery maintenance at this stage. Now that is is so far. Alright, it's just easier to do some sed trick on objects in a local scenery repo, instead of updating objects one by one via a webfrontend. The actual tools we currently have aren't that practical for bigger scenery projects. Nor do i want to bother peoples to get my changes. But so far, it's already very well done for the occasional scenery object modeller. I know that there's technical limitations and blowing up the svn log is piece of cake. But the main issue is still these outdated airport layouts and scenery regeneration to match the new airport layout. And maybe more scenery rebuilds should be done there where a change has happen. Simple like that, the state is that i'm still a bit lost, miss info and knowledges. And i'm just waiting that things move. I will just take the aircraft which will bring me to the right direction. [1] http://dvanmosselbeen.be/projects/flightgear-flight-simulator/sceneries/belgium [2] https://gitorious.org/dvanmosselbeen/flightgear-custom-scenery/ Kind regards, David -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012, Pedro Morgan wrote: Can I ask a Muppet Question.. ?? copyright is always owned by authority of nav data.. eg caa, nats, eurocontrol.. So this data is theirs but were allowed to use Another example id livery and logos.. eg an airline that is defunct or BritishArwys as and exmaple.. Now their logo is their copyright.. So what I am trying to get at is the FRAND.. Just FYI, any navigation data provided by any agency of the US govt. is public domain. US Copyright law also doesn't recognize the copyright-ability of facts. YMMV in other parts of the world of course. (I think the UKians have a law on the books that says facts can be copyrighted) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Hi, On 02/25/2012 10:22 PM, HB-GRAL wrote: What are you waiting, go for it! When I can help to keep the monster small, I will try to do it. From my experience building scenery I would say ... building Western Finland in a good matter will take approximate six months when you’re fast (while making the monster small will take two or three days). I'm not waiting, I'm on my way :). The issue for me is less the compiling part but the handling part with everything included. I have never had any contact with GIS stuff and all the concepts and terminology is very foreign to me. It will take a while until I dug through all the specific lingo and how to use the tools. Then I have some practical issues to figure out, e.g. that the GIS software I tried runs extremely slow on my machine. It takes literally minutes to build the screen after every move, zoom, etc. Where have you been looking for? I can provide you some GPL compliant data when it is necessary. Just send me a note or ask at the forum. Actually, I have asked another user who offered the data a short while ago and such has Alral publicly in the EFTP thread. Trouble is, SRTM seems not to go beyond 61°N, so I was googling a couple of hours for elevation data Finland and found only one source which I am not clear about the licensing. You cannot publish free software and then try to blackmail people into doing stuff the way you want it. That's stupid and ridiculous. I think no one is going to blackmail anyone recently. I’ve never seen censorship here before and I don’t like such approaches at all. But of course, like the GPL discussion shows, this project follows some rules. In my personal view it is not stupid and ridiculous to HELP new developers to follow this rules. This was specifically an answer to Kreuzritter's suggestion to remove all links to custom scenery from all official FG websites to force people to create scenery for the central database. I would consider this kinda blackmailing or trying to force people into something. Of course, the project follows some rules and I don't have any problems with the fact that the scenery database is GPL'd and thus contributions must be GPL'd too. I would only have a problem with any attempt to subdue custom scenery, because IMHO, for the user it doesn't matter if the scenery is GPL'd, PD or any other license that allows for (cost-)free distribution and use. For the user it only matters to have pretty scenery. Tervehdys Suomesta / greetings from Finland, Stefan -- Stefan Gofferje | Web: http://stefan.gofferje.net/ (sgofferj/OH-SW) | Projects: http://www.saakeskus.fi/ | Com1: IAX2/k-tanco.louhen-sudet.fi/stefan FG OSBS, Opensuse 12.1, GeForce GTX560, Phenom X4 3200, 8GB RAM -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
On Thu, 2012-02-23 at 22:21 +, Martin Spott wrote: Those who relied on me to continue what I've done so far I kindly ask to bear with me, because I reached the point where I have to apply a measure of self protection I think we've all reached that point at some time and it's good to step back for a while. I know it was good for me. Looking at what can be done in the forums I can only thank you for the time this far Martin. It looks like your efforts will help to improve the scenery, maybe not short term but it the end it will be obvious. Erik -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
From my perspective the really relevant paragraph in my posting is this one: Martin Spott wrote: The idea I had in mind, the motivation which drove me into dedicating so many hours was to focus as many of the available ressources as possible on building the best _common_ Scenery we could make for FlightGear. Yet I have to realize that this idea has become pretty unpopular. The sort of collaboration which is being carried out at improving FlightGear's source code and the sense for continuous development obviously don't work in the Scenery department. Basically I see two different approaches in FlightGear Scenery world (aside from a few minor blends): 1.) Focus all ressources on one common World Scenery. 2.) Build pools of individual (and sometimes even contradicting) scenarios - also known as the M$FS way. It's obvious that 1.) was the one I tried to accomplish. I was convinced that, as a non-commercial OpenSource project, we could do better. Anyhow it's obvious that 2.) draws magnitudes more developer ressource and the gap is steadily increasing. I've even watched people explicitly trying to persuade/convince contributors _not_ to contribute to common, collaborative Scenery ressources - and, what's really sad, not one single voice objected. That's why I consider my approach as a failure, maybe not generally, but at least in FlightGear land because apparently there's no critical mass of fertile soil to make it grow even half as fast as it could. For a long time I thought this would be a failure of The FlightGear Community, but the more I think about it, the more I'm getting to the conclusion that there is simply no community in FlightGear Scenery land. Either there's a fundamental difference in the understanding of the term community - or 95 % of those who are repetitively exercising this term are just a crowd of narcissists Actually I doubt wether a continuation of my approach makes sense in the context of The FlightGear Project. At least I see no point in further working on 1.) whereas 2.) is getting by magnitudes more appraisal and, what is most important, support. If I were convinced there's a light at the end of the tunnel, then I would certainly continue instead of giving up, but under the current conditions I don't. This is the actual reason for my decision, not the lack of time (people who know me have already familiarized with the fact that I'm notoriously running out of time, thus there's nothing special now). In the long term I'll probably leave the entire project because I basically haven't done anything else than Scenery infrastructure over the past years. Trying to write and coordinate documentation wasn't much of a success story either but that's a different topic. Ah, btw, indeed two recent incidents convinced me to make this decision now, but they were having no effect on the decision itself, just on the particular timing. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Pedro Morgan wrote: On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.netwrote: In the mid of the last decade I've been one of those who realized that developing a long-term strategy for the various FlightGear Scenery ressources would be a Really Good Idea. Meanwhile there's been progress to make such a strategy happen, anyhow, as usual, the groundwork doesn't have much of a shiny surface, it doesn't have eye-candy. Martin, am right with you.. I understand.. its a php site.. and its on a server and your dont want it to go wrong.. Pedro, the ground work I'm talking about is not the visible web site, it's the infrastructure behind these web pages: Man-months of research and tests in GIS land, building and testing tools, building and maintaining the database, shaping all the data into its current form and loading it into the DB, researching and testing how to build detailed airport layouts with TerraGear, the same with OSM roads, ensuring a certain quality level for the land cover data as well as for the Scenemodels repository and so on. Just to mention one symptomatical example: It's really weird doing a lot of research and tests, investigating licenses, compatibility issues and the like - and to realize months or years later that others, who don't care at all about these implications, are gaining laurels. After you've gone through this sort of a story more than twice, then you're finally going to ask yourself if there's any sense in what you're trying to achieve. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
I really hope that we can start a discussion now about the state of the scenery and making (or following) some plans keeping the basic ideas up for the moment, also looking to planned improvements. I am following Martins ideas since a long time. I always tried to help here and there but I saw that it really needs a lot of people following this ideas. Martin spent so much time explaining me how to set up this and that and how all this scenery process could work. I really wish we could build some kind of temporary Scenery Team and discuss ideas. My proposal is to meet at IRC on day the next weeks to start organizing, or to open a temporary group or list. (Sorry, i do not like the forum for such). Personally- ... Martin, I would send you all my best wishes and I would send you one billion Thank Yous for all your support. Without you I would never have seen what is behind the whole scenery process. You spent so much time explaining me how this all works, you shared your experience and all the results of your researches in idealistic way and you guided me through the jungle. You always studied all proposals carefully. I ever got an answer from you. All my respect. Cheers, Yves - Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- Von: FlightGear developers discussions @lists.sourceforge.net An: Cc: Gesendet:Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:01:16 + (UTC) Betreff:Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside Pedro Morgan wrote: On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Martin Spott wrote: In the mid of the last decade I've been one of those who realized that developing a long-term strategy for the various FlightGear Scenery ressources would be a Really Good Idea. Meanwhile there's been progress to make such a strategy happen, anyhow, as usual, the groundwork doesn't have much of a shiny surface, it doesn't have eye-candy. Martin, am right with you.. I understand.. its a php site.. and its on a server and your dont want it to go wrong.. Pedro, the ground work I'm talking about is not the visible web site, it's the infrastructure behind these web pages: Man-months of research and tests in GIS land, building and testing tools, building and maintaining the database, shaping all the data into its current form and loading it into the DB, researching and testing how to build detailed airport layouts with TerraGear, the same with OSM roads, ensuring a certain quality level for the land cover data as well as for the Scenemodels repository and so on. Just to mention one symptomatical example: It's really weird doing a lot of research and tests, investigating licenses, compatibility issues and the like - and to realize months or years later that others, who don't care at all about these implications, are gaining laurels. After you've gone through this sort of a story more than twice, then you're finally going to ask yourself if there's any sense in what you're trying to achieve. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel .sp...@mgras.net@lists.sourceforge.net -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Am Freitag, den 24.02.2012, 09:41 + schrieb Martin Spott: From my perspective the really relevant paragraph in my posting is this one: Basically I see two different approaches in FlightGear Scenery world (aside from a few minor blends): 1.) Focus all ressources on one common World Scenery. 2.) Build pools of individual (and sometimes even contradicting) scenarios - also known as the M$FS way. It's obvious that 1.) was the one I tried to accomplish. I was convinced that, as a non-commercial OpenSource project, we could do better. Anyhow it's obvious that 2.) draws magnitudes more developer ressource and the gap is steadily increasing. I've even watched people explicitly trying to persuade/convince contributors _not_ to contribute to common, collaborative Scenery ressources - and, what's really sad, not one single voice objected. You're absolutly right. In my opinion a key for success of 1.) is to NOT promote individual scenery projects on the official FlightGear places. So i suggest to remove all urls that do link to such individual scenery projects from the FlightGear website, the wiki and even postings on the flightgear forum. Especially the latter might be very important. If we make sure by force that individuals can't promote their own scenery project on the forum or any other official place on FlightGear they will have no laudation on their individual scenery projects. This will nip individual scenery projects in the bud and will hopefully lead to the way that such persons will freely submit their work to the common World Scenery. So 1.) can be ensured by force. Removing the urls is the key for that. Forum moderators are able to do that. As long as individual scenery projects can be promoted and guarantee that way that such individuals will get attention for their one man show 2.) will stay attractive. The key is to make 2.) unattractive by removing the promoting links to those individual projects. Best Regards, Oliver C. -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Hi all, and especially Martin, first of all let me say that I completely respect your decision. I'm sure, knowing you're way of decision making, that you've been thinking it over for a while. Without trying to change your opinion, I do like to give you my view on the scenery issue. You know that I support a centralized scenery database, but through the extensive contact with the community (if I may say so) I did gain some respect for their reasoning. More on that below. Now that automated scenery downloading (via TerraSync) is integrated into the sim there are more scenery-database users than ever. So it's importance is definitely not decreasing, even the contrary! Talking to many (new) users and (scenery) developers over the past years I've found that there are reasons (you can argue whether they are valid reasons, but they are reasons) for releasing scenery independant from the scenery database: Landclassing: submitting landclassing data to the scenery database is rather easy. I did some parts myself (West Frisian islands, Dubai, Manhattan). Two years after I submitted Dubai, it's still not included in the scenery. If I'm not mistaken, the last scenery build dates back to 2008... I don't blame Martin for this (absolutely not), it's just an observation. Airport layouts: following up on the previous point, updates for airport layouts can be submitted. Another thing I've done for quite some airports. But, since the terrain isn't rebuilt after such changes, airport layouts that were updated years ago are still nothing more than a few lines in a .dat file.Object placement: various airports are/were so incorrect in the scenery (there's an airport in Belgium that's 300m shifted IIRC) that it's impossible (and a waste of time) to place objects in such a way that they don't interfer with the (bad) layout.Annoying the scenery maintainers: when you add a lot of objects, and are still updating them frequently, you don't want to annoy the scenery maintainers with dozens of requests/updates. Oliver is tackling this part with the automation. Licensing: we don't have much scenery that's non-gpl, but there are a few areas. This is obviously a good reason that we cannot do much about. To give one recent example that applies to most of these reasons: LOWI. It has an updated airport layout, custom landclassing and is under heavy development. The author told me that he'll put all of it in the database once it is finished. Altough I don't know his exact reasoning, I imagine the above mentioned reasons are certainly part of it. In order to tackle these reasons, we need to have more frequent scenery builds. If I'm not mistaken that is/was on Martin's todo-list. After submitting an airport layout or shapefile update, scenery should get rebuilt automatically. I am aware of the challenges with that (eg. gaps between tiles). I'd like to learn how I can help. Yves, I'll try to come on IRC the next week for sure, excellent idea! I'll stop writing now, already typed to many words for the current University project this morning. Getting dizzy from all the words that passed my screen the last 6 hours or so... Last but not least: Martin, thanks for all you've done! I'm sure there will be one day that the majority will be thankfull for everything you did! In fact all TerraSync users already are (without knowing I assume). Cheers, Gijs -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Hi Martin, I sent you yesterday some new scenery models to add and I haven't paid attention to the emails on fg mailing list... For one year I'm working as a scenery modeler, I didn't know all the problems you met, and I'm deeply sorry for being so ignorant. As a FG user, I really support the idea to have one main common scenery, because it's more convenient thanks to Terrasync and I'm sure there are a lot of people who think like this too. Flightgear is an open source project and it's a good opportunity to do that. Thank you so much for all your work and your contribution to Flightgear. You deserve some rest and as Pedro said, I also hope one day to see you come back, with new ideas. I will also join the IRC discussion about that. I stopped using it a few months ago but now, I think it's time to come back. Thank you Martin! Julien Le 24/02/2012 16:03, Martin Spott a écrit : Gijs de Rooy wrote: To give one recent example that applies to most of these reasons: LOWI. It has an updated airport layout, custom landclassing and is under heavy development. The author told me that he'll put all of it in the database once it is finished. Just for the record, that's one of the common, big, but most avoidable mistakes: Submitting when it's finished. I know, it's _really_ common, but always carries the risk of making the same mistake with every of the included models. Guess how many hours I spent fixing the same stupid mistake in a row of models, mistakes which could have been avoided if people would have sent me each of these models _early_ !? Submitting early allows for early feedback and, as a consequence, for preventing avoidable mistakes early in the development phase of an airfield scenario, thus facilitating the rest of the submission process. I didn't track the number of hours, but, believe me, it kept me busy - and just for the stupid reason because people neither bothered reading our Contribute recommendations nor considered my advice. I know, Gijs, it's not your fault, I just hooked up because you mentioned. Cheers, Martin. -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Hi Martin, I sent you yesterday some new scenery models to add and I haven't paid attention to the emails on fg mailing list... For one year I'm working as a scenery modeler, I didn't know all the problems you met, and I'm deeply sorry for being so ignorant. As a FG user, I really support the idea to have one main common scenery, because it's more convenient thanks to Terrasync and I'm sure there are a lot of people who think like this too. Flightgear is an open source project and it's a good opportunity to do that. Thank you so much for all your work and your contribution to Flightgear. You deserve some rest and as Pedro said, I also hope one day to see you come back, with new ideas. I will also join the IRC discussion about that. I stopped using it a few months ago but now, I think it's time to come back. Thank you Martin! Julien Le 24/02/2012 16:03, Martin Spott a écrit : Gijs de Rooy wrote: To give one recent example that applies to most of these reasons: LOWI. It has an updated airport layout, custom landclassing and is under heavy development. The author told me that he'll put all of it in the database once it is finished. Just for the record, that's one of the common, big, but most avoidable mistakes: Submitting when it's finished. I know, it's _really_ common, but always carries the risk of making the same mistake with every of the included models. Guess how many hours I spent fixing the same stupid mistake in a row of models, mistakes which could have been avoided if people would have sent me each of these models _early_ !? Submitting early allows for early feedback and, as a consequence, for preventing avoidable mistakes early in the development phase of an airfield scenario, thus facilitating the rest of the submission process. I didn't track the number of hours, but, believe me, it kept me busy - and just for the stupid reason because people neither bothered reading our Contribute recommendations nor considered my advice. I know, Gijs, it's not your fault, I just hooked up because you mentioned. Cheers, Martin. -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Basically I see two different approaches in FlightGear Scenery world (aside from a few minor blends): 1.) Focus all ressources on one common World Scenery. 2.) Build pools of individual (and sometimes even contradicting) scenarios - also known as the M$FS way. It's obvious that 1.) was the one I tried to accomplish. I was convinced that, as a non-commercial OpenSource project, we could do better. Anyhow it's obvious that 2.) draws magnitudes more developer ressource and the gap is steadily increasing. I've even watched people explicitly trying to persuade/convince contributors _not_ to contribute to common, collaborative Scenery ressources - and, what's really sad, not one single voice objected. That's why I consider my approach as a failure, maybe not generally, but at least in FlightGear land because apparently there's no critical mass of fertile soil to make it grow even half as fast as it could. For a long time I thought this would be a failure of The FlightGear Community, but the more I think about it, the more I'm getting to the conclusion that there is simply no community in FlightGear Scenery land. Either there's a fundamental difference in the understanding of the term community - or 95 % of those who are repetitively exercising this term are just a crowd of narcissists I guess as far as scenery goes, I certainly qualify as an outsider, so here are my two cents. As far as my experience goes, this sums it up quite nicely: Just for the record, that's one of the common, big, but most avoidable mistakes: Submitting when it's finished. Since my first contact with Flightgear a few years ago, I have never witnessed that world scenery has grown more detailed. Objects - yes, but for me personally landclass and elevation resolution matters much more. Basically, during my whole Flightgear life, the world scenery has always been what it is. In my first year, I've occasionally asked when new world scenery will be available. Afterwards, I've given up. I was (and still am) glad that more and more custom scenery patches appeared. It is very obvious to me that this approach has its limits, there are errors and seams visible - but all in all, it enabled me to pick the areas where I like to fly and enjoy that while waiting for the real thing. Whenever that may happen. I read many forum posts, I follow this list - and yet I have zero idea what the status of the world scenery is, I couldn't even guess when, say, Europe might be moved consistently to CORINE data, I have no idea what the current issues in scenery development are. And I had no idea about your frustration right until reading your post. And I required your two follow-up posts to understand just what the issue is. Just maybe, there is a communication issue involved here (but let's also allow for the possibility that I am just too dumb). A community doesn't usually organize spontaneously in my experience - it has also something to do with the flow of information and ideas, with social skills (there are some people I enjoy interacting with, there are others with which I can interact if necessary) and last a good bit of luck to find the right person at the right time. Maybe, if there'd be a clear perspective for contributions to world scenery to appear, developers would be less likely to do their own patches of the planet. Maybe not. Having said that, I would also very much like to thank you for the work you have done. I don't understand enough of the details to fully appreciate it, but I do know that it is crucial for all bits of scenery I like. And I woul like to make it very clear that me being grateful for, say, Pacific Northwest Scenery doesn't take away my appreciation for your work. I really feel a strong manpower in FG on aircrafts, on shaders and weather items, And I wonder where that feeling comes from, because despite trying to get forum users interested in joining in weather-creation work (or texturing), I have the feeling that this has basically failed. The situation I observe is not really different from what Martin describes - the development of the weather system rests on a few (at times seriously overworked) individuals and there doesn't seem to be a pool of manpower to be tapped if needed. Being a theoretical physicist in real life, this is no different from work, so I don't really mind that mode of development so much. Best, * Thorsten -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
flightg...@sablonier.ch wrote: [...] I really wish we could build some kind of temporary Scenery Team and discuss ideas. My proposal is to meet at IRC on day the next weeks to start organizing, or to open a temporary group or list. (Sorry, i do not like the forum for such). A scenery team is no bad idea and overdue. There ARE people who have proven in the past that they like to work on the scenery basics and not only create custom scenery. I had so many contributions to the CS DB, that I did not catch up with the work (and am in fact still missing some parts). Let me mention though that there IS a #fg_scenery channel on IRC (with nobody in it) and having a meeting to coordinate ideas and capacities surely is a good start. In the mid- to longterm perspective I'd like to make more advancements on the terragear side, to enable us to rebuild single tiles when there are changes. This is possible already, as many of you know, but then in most cases the newly created tile does no longer match fit to its neighbours, which results in gaps. If we could iron this out, we'd be a whole lot further down the road... Chris -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Am 24.02.12 21:44, schrieb Christian Schmitt: flightg...@sablonier.ch wrote: [...] I really wish we could build some kind of temporary Scenery Team and discuss ideas. My proposal is to meet at IRC on day the next weeks to start organizing, or to open a temporary group or list. (Sorry, i do not like the forum for such). A scenery team is no bad idea and overdue. There ARE people who have proven in the past that they like to work on the scenery basics and not only create custom scenery. I had so many contributions to the CS DB, that I did not catch up with the work (and am in fact still missing some parts). Let me mention though that there IS a #fg_scenery channel on IRC (with nobody in it) and having a meeting to coordinate ideas and capacities surely is a good start. In the mid- to longterm perspective I'd like to make more advancements on the terragear side, to enable us to rebuild single tiles when there are changes. This is possible already, as many of you know, but then in most cases the newly created tile does no longer match fit to its neighbours, which results in gaps. If we could iron this out, we'd be a whole lot further down the road... Chris Proposal for a first small meeting at #fg_scenery channel, this weekend: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=IRC+Meeting+%40+%23fg_sceneryiso=20120226T17p1=945ah=1 Cheers, Yves -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Le 23/02/2012 23:21, Martin Spott a écrit : when I can spend all the time on so many other enjoyable activities. Have fun, Martin. Martin, I quote only this one, as I do know what can be felt in such circumstances, and you're right, the most important: save time to enjoy life. What about building a wooden Tomcat sim in Torsten's garden ? Or rear goats in south of France (good wine here, good network too). Kindly, Alexis -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
In the mid of the last decade I've been one of those who realized that developing a long-term strategy for the various FlightGear Scenery ressources would be a Really Good Idea. Meanwhile there's been progress to make such a strategy happen, anyhow, as usual, the groundwork doesn't have much of a shiny surface, it doesn't have eye-candy. The idea I had in mind, the motivation which drove me into dedicating so many hours was to focus as many of the available ressources as possible on building the best _common_ Scenery we could make for FlightGear. Yet I have to realize that this idea has become pretty unpopular. The sort of collaboration which is being carried out at improving FlightGear's source code and the sense for continuous development obviously don't work in the Scenery department. Apparently I've been too ambitious and idealistic. I know that voluntary OpenSource development is primarily ego-driven, but there's a strong indication that I've still under-estimated the average Scenery- developers narcism: Scenery development is nowadays diverging into more different (and contradicting) branches than ever before - and almost no one cares. That's the complete opposite of what I was trying to achieve. Therefore I'm drawing the consequences from this process and, as a last resort to save myself from even more frustration, I'll resign from maintaining any FlightGear Scenery ressources. I'll be leaving the Scenemodels/MapServer-database-, webserver- and TerraSync- infrastructure intact and will also be maintaining the underlying machinery as long as required, so Jon Stockill, Olivier Jacq or someone else whom they trust may continue using it according to their needs. Those who relied on me to continue what I've done so far I kindly ask to bear with me, because I reached the point where I have to apply a measure of self protection and, let's face it, why should I continue serving such a mostly unpleasant and ungrateful role when I can spend all the time on so many other enjoyable activities. Have fun, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Am 24.02.2012 00:19, schrieb Pedro Morgan: On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net mailto:martin.sp...@mgras.net wrote: Apparently I've been too ambitious and idealistic. I know that voluntary OpenSource development is primarily ego-driven, but there's a strong indication that I've still under-estimated the average Scenery- developers narcism: Scenery development is nowadays diverging into more different (and contradicting) branches than ever before - and almost no one cares. That's the complete opposite of what I was trying to achieve. I agree with all the above, apart from one point... There's a lot of frustration and the boundaries and responsibilities.. and indeed negatives, vs positives .. One thing to bear in mind,, if you dont hear from anyone their happy == Invisible positives.. You only get the winging negatives... !! whilst there's millions of happinesses.. invisible_positives += 1; thx a million, Martin, for your work and kind support! But please don't let it be the last chapter of the flightgear screenplay containing your name. I believe there's a need for your opinion and your sense for community in projects like these. Cheers, Andre -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Looking at a nice project from outside
Am 23.02.12 23:21, schrieb Martin Spott: Apparently I've been too ambitious and idealistic. No ! Cheers, Yves -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
