Recall: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Grant Hogarth]

Grant Hogarth would like to recall the message, OT: Syntax for if/then 
statement.
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RE: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Grant Hogarth]

On Thursday, June 29, 2006 12:43 PM the ever-sharp Bill Briggs noted
web At 12:33 PM -0600 6/29/06, Grant Hogarth, self-professed pedant,
wrote:
GHTo build still further on Eric's excellent discourse:
GHThere also exists the possibility of a conditional dependency of
action.
GH   E.g. If your book wins a Pulitzer, [then] you
GH [will/can/must/shall/may/ought to/...] celebrate...
GH
GH- If A, then B (explicit consequence, 
GH implied (but not required) order)
GH- If A and B (explicit connection, both elements required)
GH- If A, and then B (explicit consequence, conditions must 
GH occur in fixed order)
GH- If A, B (explict set construction with tacit connection, 
GH but no required sequence)
GH
GHIn the first three of these, the time separation element 
GHis implied as a requirement;

web Sorry, but that's not so. 

I will grant you that it's not mathematically *complete* g
No excuse... I simply got lazy.

web My example in a previous message has no time element and 
web satisfies the first just fine thank you. It's not necessary 
web that these things are sequences of instructions, they can 
web be existing conditions, which is how the constructs arise 
web in logic and in programming any kind of logic based system.

Good point.  And one that I neglected to clearly address. Let me remedy
that.

To my way of thinking, the notion of condition intrinsically implies a
time element, as a condition is presumed to be in one of three states
(and state transition is instantaneous):
  * currently existing 
  * currently not existing
  * currently not determinable (usually treated as not existing)

  SIDEBAR
  There are also the more esoteric cases, such as:
  * previously existing, but currently not existing
  * previously not existing, but currently existing and  
 continuing to exist (roughly equivalent to bullet 1 above)
  * previously existing, but currently not determinable 
  * previously not existing, but currently not determinable 
  *  ...
  /SIDEBAR

Given that we are observing from a time-bound environment, a state
transition, while taking no time in and of itself, creates a before
and after by the act of occurring.
If 'A' is a precondition for 'B', then 'A' perforce must exist prior to
'B'.
If 'B' already exists, then the occurrance of 'A' does not alter it;
instead creating 'C', which is pretty much the same as the first case.

web Further, the first instance is a complete notion. 

I can see how you got there. It really is only a portion of the larger
statement 
If A and B, then C. 

web The second and third are not and require a consequence to 
web complete the statement. The last is totally unclear to me. 
web Is it if A and B or if A or B or if A given B or 
web something else? It is not possible to ascertain from what 
web you've written.

Apologies -- have been doing too many chart equations of late. g
I can see that my statement is unclear; I intended 
If (A,B) where B is the identity of a particular instance of A.

Does that help?

Grant
Realizing just how long it has been since he has had to write explicit
formal logic. smile
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OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Grant Hogarth]

On Thursday, June 29, 2006 12:43 PM the ever-sharp Bill Briggs noted
At 12:33 PM -0600 6/29/06, Grant Hogarth, self-professed pedant, wrote:
GH>>To build still further on Eric's excellent discourse:
GH>>There also exists the possibility of a conditional dependency of
action.
GH>>   E.g. "If your book wins a Pulitzer, [then] you
GH>> [will/can/must/shall/may/ought to/...] celebrate..."
GH>>
GH>>- If A, then B (explicit consequence, implied (but not required)
GH>>order)
GH>>- If A and B   (explicit connection, both elements required)
GH>>- If A, and then B (explicit consequence, conditions must occur 
GH>>in fixed order)
GH>>- If A, B  (explict set construction with tacit connection, 
GH>>but no required sequence)
GH>>
GH>>In the first three of these, the time separation element is implied 
GH>>as a requirement;

web> Sorry, but that's not so. 

I will grant you that it's not mathematically *complete* 

web> My example in a previous message has no time element and 
web> satisfies the first just fine thank you. It's not necessary that
these things are sequences of instructions, they can be existing
conditions, which is how the constructs arise in logic and in
programming any kind of logic based system.

 Further, the first instance is a complete notion. The second and third
are not and require a consequence to complete the statement. The last is
totally unclear to me. Is it "if A and B" or "if A or B" or "if A given
B" or something else? It is not possible to ascertain from what you've
written.

- web

Recall: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Grant Hogarth]

Grant Hogarth would like to recall the message, "OT: Syntax for if/then 
statement".

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Grant Hogarth]

On Thursday, June 29, 2006 12:43 PM the ever-sharp Bill Briggs noted
web> At 12:33 PM -0600 6/29/06, Grant Hogarth, self-professed pedant,
wrote:
GH>>To build still further on Eric's excellent discourse:
GH>>There also exists the possibility of a conditional dependency of
action.
GH>>   E.g. "If your book wins a Pulitzer, [then] you
GH>> [will/can/must/shall/may/ought to/...] celebrate..."
GH>>
GH>>- If A, then B (explicit consequence, 
GH>> implied (but not required) order)
GH>>- If A and B (explicit connection, both elements required)
GH>>- If A, and then B (explicit consequence, conditions must 
GH>> occur in fixed order)
GH>>- If A, B (explict set construction with tacit connection, 
GH>> but no required sequence)
GH>>
GH>>In the first three of these, the time separation element 
GH>>is implied as a requirement;

web> Sorry, but that's not so. 

I will grant you that it's not mathematically *complete* 
No excuse... I simply got lazy.

web> My example in a previous message has no time element and 
web> satisfies the first just fine thank you. It's not necessary 
web> that these things are sequences of instructions, they can 
web> be existing conditions, which is how the constructs arise 
web> in logic and in programming any kind of logic based system.

Good point.  And one that I neglected to clearly address. Let me remedy
that.

To my way of thinking, the notion of "condition" intrinsically implies a
time element, as a condition is presumed to be in one of three states
(and state transition is instantaneous):
  * currently existing 
  * currently not existing
  * currently not determinable (usually treated as "not existing")

  
  There are also the more esoteric cases, such as:
  * previously existing, but currently not existing
  * previously not existing, but currently existing and  
 continuing to exist (roughly equivalent to bullet 1 above)
  * previously existing, but currently not determinable 
  * previously not existing, but currently not determinable 
  *  ...
  

Given that we are observing from a time-bound environment, a state
transition, while taking no time in and of itself, creates a "before"
and "after" by the act of occurring.
If 'A' is a precondition for 'B', then 'A' perforce must exist prior to
'B'.
If 'B' already exists, then the occurrance of 'A' does not alter it;
instead creating 'C', which is pretty much the same as the first case.

web> Further, the first instance is a complete notion. 

I can see how you got there. It really is only a portion of the larger
statement 
"If A and B, then C". 

web> The second and third are not and require a consequence to 
web> complete the statement. The last is totally unclear to me. 
web> Is it "if A and B" or "if A or B" or "if A given B" or 
web> something else? It is not possible to ascertain from what 
web> you've written.

Apologies -- have been doing too many chart equations of late. 
I can see that my statement is unclear; I intended 
"If (A,B)" where B is the identity of a particular instance of A.

Does that help?

Grant
Realizing just how long it has been since he has had to write explicit
formal logic. 

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Stuart Rogers]

Grant Hogarth wrote:
> On Thursday, June 29, 2006 12:43 PM the ever-sharp Bill Briggs noted
> web> At 12:33 PM -0600 6/29/06, Grant Hogarth, self-professed pedant,
> wrote:
> GH>>To build still further on Eric's excellent discourse:
...
> Realizing just how long it has been since he has had to write explicit
> formal logic. 

Perhaps it is time to take this REALLY REALLY REALLY OFF-TOPIC 
discussion off-line?

Thank you,

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in 
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification 
for selfishness."

John Kenneth Galbraith, 1908-2006
"The smartest export Canada ever sent to the United States."


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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

I think you need to screen for editors better. I'm not a grammarian by
any stretch of the imagination, but I certainly know you don't use a
coordinating conjunction to string together dependent clauses in that
manner.

If you want icecream, and then you buy some.

Makes absolutely no sense. Time to break out the wet noodle and start swinging.

On 6/29/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If blah, blah,
then blah, blah. We have a new editor that just joined who is in the
process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an
opinion about what is right and what is wrong in editing . . .in many
cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings
about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some
factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the
emotional because we've always done it this way. Years ago, I had such a
reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which
manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word and to such
statements - if blah, blah, AND then blah, blah. Both I and the other
writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then -
no and. I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation
reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me
First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find
it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread
here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would
make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was
developed, but. . . .


--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Anne Robotti]

 Our new editor wants to add the word and to 
 such statements - if blah, blah, AND then blah, blah. 

But that doesn't even make sense grammatically!

The closest thing I can find is in the Microsoft Manual of Style for
Technical Publications, it's the if/when/whether thing. I know that
doesn't help.

Surely the fact that the mind instinctively shrinks in horror from the
sentence structure he's proposing should count for something though,
shouldn't it?

Anne
 


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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Steve Rickaby]

At 11:22 -0600 29/6/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Our new editor wants to add the word and to such statements - if blah, 
blah, AND then blah, blah. Both I and the other writer disagree with the 
editor on this one - it should be just if/then - no and.

Boy are you going to have fun with your new editor.

If/then and If/then/else or If/then/eiseif/else have been the constructs in any 
programming language that I can remember working in. 'If/and then' introduces 
an element of confusion, as if the 'and' clause is a second 'if' condition, as 
in 'If A happens and then B, then C happens'. In hardware logic, this is the 
logic of an AND gate, which has the truth table:

A   B   Out

0   0   0
0   1   0
1   0   0
1   1   1

In other words, the output is only high if inputs A and B are high. What you 
want is the logic of a Yes gate (I just made that up), i.e. a straight piece of 
wire:

Input   Output

0   0
1   1

I.e. If input high, then output high.

Even more, 'if/and then' introduces a misleading temporal element, as if the 
result only occurs if the second condition occurred after the first.

What's his/her background? Cleanly not electronics or programming. Or editing, 
for that matter.

For references, just use the formal definitions of any high-level programming 
language, plus a good grammar book. If that's not enough, search in the works 
of any of the major professional communicators (Tufte?)
-- 
Steve
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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Jim Light]

Tammy,

It seems to me that and changes the meaning entirely!

When you say If A, then B. It means that if A occurs or exists, B will
follow or exist.

If you say If A, and then B. The sentence is rendered incomplete. It
makes B part of the original IF clause (I wouldn't use a comma when
anding two items) and leaves you hanging, waiting for the other shoe
to drop. If A and then B, then C will soon follow.

For example: If the new editor prevails, and then the boss buys into
it, then you have no choice but to type up your resume. 

Jim 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers@frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information

for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used

the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If blah,
blah, 
then blah, blah. We have a new editor that just joined who is in the 
process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an

opinion about what is right and what is wrong in editing . . .in
many 
cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial
meetings 
about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with
some 
factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the 
emotional because we've always done it this way. Years ago, I had such
a 
reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember
which 
manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word and to such 
statements - if blah, blah, AND then blah, blah. Both I and the
other 
writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then
- 
no and. I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation 
reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me 
First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't
find 
it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin
thread 
here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then,
would 
make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was 
developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Tammy . VanBoening]

Donald, Christine, Jeremy, et. al.

LOL!  This list makes my day. Believe you me, I would like to be blunt as 
some of you were in your emails (the responses were hysterical!), but I 
can summarize the responses (in a politically correct format, mind you!) 
and go from there.

Thanks for all of the replies, support and knowledge. We'll see how it 
ends up.

TVB

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Martha J Davidson]

At 10:22 AM 6/29/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Our new editor wants to add the word and to such
statements - if blah, blah, AND then blah, blah. Both I and the other
writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then -
no and.


Tammy,

I think your editor is overreacting to the use of then following
a comma in an entirely different context. As other folks have said,
using if A, then B, is just good English; anything else won't parse.

In some procedural steps, there's a trend to say Do A, then do B,
which many editors prefer to change to Do A, AND then to B. Your
editor seems to have mixed up these two very different uses of then
following an initial clause. Can you check with him/her to see if
this is a possible misinterpretation of the new--incorrect--recommendation?

martha

--
Martha Jane {Kolman | Davidson}
Dances With Words
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Too many words bring about exhaustion.
 --Tao Te Ching, Chapter 5 (translated by Sheets/Tovey)


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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Beck, Charles]

Hi Tammy, 

Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on
your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of
Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further:
That style guide states that you should avoid the if...then
construction altogether and not use the word then at all in such
situations. That is, you should simply say something like If
such-and-such is true, do this. 

This has also been the policy/practice with my past and present
employers and clients. I formerly also used if...then constructions
almost exclusively, so it was a challenge for me to adhere to this
standard when I first encountered it. But after thinking it through, I
eventually agreed that it is cleaner and more succinct. 

However, YMMV. In the end, it may come down to what your
company/organization decides to use as the standard. If that is the
case, it will come down to a question of who has the final authority to
make such decisions on behalf of the organization. Hopefully, that will
not be done willy-nilly, with no regard for the preferences of all
parties involved; but in the end, if you all just cannot agree,
*some*one has to be the final arbiter. If that is not you, you may have
to just be prepared to bite the bullet and go along with it.

Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough about
such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and
endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could
probably not care less.

FWIW,
Chuck Beck


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:22 PM
To: framers@frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If blah,
blah, then blah, blah. We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is right and what is wrong in editing . .
.in many cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional because we've always done it this
way. Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word and to such statements - if blah, blah, AND
then blah, blah. Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no and. I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the  if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Beck, Charles]

One additional thought: Despite what I said in my previous post, I agree
with Jeremy. Your editor's construction is also not correct. You should
not be using either and OR then with conditional construct
statements. In this case, your editor's position (on reading closer) is
worse than the one you have been using. But it may turn out that neither
is really grammatically correct. 

BTW, I can't say what the Chicago Manual of Style says about such
things, because I do not have one handy, but it might be interesting to
see what that style guide says about this...

Cheers,
Chuck Beck

 

-Original Message-
Subject: Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:22:20 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

Our new editor wants to add the word and to such statements - if 
blah, blah, AND then blah, blah. Both I and the other writer 
disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - no 
and.

Yikes.  You don't have to look for specific refs for geekspeak, this is
just plain bad grammar.  Look at a grammar reference.  You don't use
and to separate a conditional clause from the rest of its sentence!

I'd seriously wonder if this person were qualified to edit *anything*.
;-)

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.omsys.com/ 
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[eric . dunn]

Steve Rickaby wrote on 06/29/2006 01:47:56 PM:
 If/then and If/then/else or If/then/eiseif/else have been the 
 constructs in any programming language that I can remember working 
 in.

While I won't argue with the underlying point Steve's logic with respect 
to the addition of an AND clause to the sentence, I will pit nits and 
throw another view point into the mix.

Firstly, logically speaking, isn't there a difference between:
- If A, and then B
and
- If A and B

The first implies a wait or sequence between events A and B. It does not 
imply that the events are simultaneous nor that they need to be 
maintained. If A happens, stops, then six months later B happens, the 
first statement is true. The second statement is true only while both 
events are happening (and they could start in any order).

Secondly, Why does the sentence even contain then in the first place? 
(You don't even include THEN in If statements in many languages.)

From the original post: If blah, blah, then blah, blah.

Why not: If blah, blah, blah, blah.

Thirdly, as far as using because we've always done it this way. as a 
reason, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The burden of proof 
is on the person suggesting a change. They must prove that their proposed 
change has demonstrable advantages over the old way. If they can prove 
benefit, only then is the old guard's complaint of we've always done it 
this way. become irrelevant.

It doesn't make you popular, but a simple Choosing between two 
unsubstantiated choices, we'll stick with the way it's done. or I 
understand you like it better that way, but we've already made a choice. 
are valid arguments against change.

Eric L. Dunn
Senior Technical Writer

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Re: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

For example: If the new editor prevails, and then the boss buys into
it, then you have no choice but to type up your resume.


Brilliant example! But let's end on a happy note...

Else hire a new editor. ;-)

--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Robert Shelton]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Beck, Charles
 
 Hi Tammy, 
 
 Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on
 your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of
 Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further:
 That style guide states that you should avoid the if...then
 construction altogether and not use the word then at all in such
 situations. That is, you should simply say something like If
 such-and-such is true, do this. 

MMoS may not like if..., then, but that doesn't mean it agrees with the 
editor. There's a big difference between saying the then is unnecessary and 
saying you need to add an and.
 
 This has also been the policy/practice with my past and present
 employers and clients. I formerly also used if...then constructions
 almost exclusively, so it was a challenge for me to adhere to this
 standard when I first encountered it. But after thinking it through, I
 eventually agreed that it is cleaner and more succinct. 

For what it's worth, I rarely use then in this situation, but using then is 
much better than using and then. As others have said, in this construction, 
that's just grammatically wrong.

Bob
Love people. Use things. Not vice-versa. -- Kelly Rothaus
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Re: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on
your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of
Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further:
That style guide states that you should avoid the if...then
construction altogether and not use the word then at all in such
situations. That is, you should simply say something like If
such-and-such is true, do this.


Right, but the recommended construct is if A, do B not if A, and do B...


Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough about
such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and
endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could
probably not care less.


Actually, in the case of a if/and then construction, I'll bet the
readers would care and be just a tad bit confused.

--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Beck, Charles]

Right-o, Bill. I had neglected to notice the full context of the
construct, and issued my first response too hastily. My bad. 

However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, If
such-and-such is true, then do this, or If such-and-such is true, do
this.

Chuck


-Original Message-
From: Bill Swallow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 2:09 PM
To: Beck, Charles
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; framers@frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Syntax for if/then statement

 Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on 
 your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of 
 Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even
further:
 That style guide states that you should avoid the if...then
 construction altogether and not use the word then at all in such 
 situations. That is, you should simply say something like If 
 such-and-such is true, do this.

Right, but the recommended construct is if A, do B not if A, and do
B...

 Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough 
 about such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and 
 endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could 
 probably not care less.

Actually, in the case of a if/and then construction, I'll bet the
readers would care and be just a tad bit confused.

--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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Re: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, If
such-and-such is true, then do this, or If such-and-such is true, do
this.


Right, then is assumed, just as you is assumed in your examples. :-)

I'll bet many non-English languages will put then back in when it's
translated.

--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Patterson, Jan]

The Chicago Manual of Style, 15th Edition, section 5.182, says:

Correlative conjunctions are used in pairs, often to join successive
clauses that depend on each other to form a complete thought . . . {If
the first claim is true, then the second claim must be false} . . . Some
examples of correlative conjunctions are as-as, if-then, either-or,
neither-nor . . .

jan e patterson
environmental systems products - sr technical writer
tucson, az 85745

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers@frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If blah,
blah, then blah, blah. We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is right and what is wrong in editing . .
.in many cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional because we've always done it this
way. Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word and to such statements - if blah, blah, AND
then blah, blah. Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no and. I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the  if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 12:33 PM -0600 6/29/06, Grant Hogarth, self-professed pedant, wrote:
To build still further on Eric's excellent discourse:

There also exists the possibility of a conditional dependency of action.
   E.g. If your book wins a Pulitzer, [then] you
 [will/can/must/shall/may/ought to/...] celebrate...


- If A, then B (explicit consequence, implied (but not required)
order)
- If A and B   (explicit connection, both elements required)
- If A, and then B (explicit consequence, conditions must occur in fixed
order)
- If A, B  (explict set construction with tacit connection, but
no required sequence)

In the first three of these, the time separation element is implied as a
requirement;

 Sorry, but that's not so. My example in a previous message has no time element 
and satisfies the first just fine thank you. It's not necessary that these 
things are sequences of instructions, they can be existing conditions, which is 
how the constructs arise in logic and in programming any kind of logic based 
system.

 Further, the first instance is a complete notion. The second and third are not 
and require a consequence to complete the statement. The last is totally 
unclear to me. Is it if A and B or if A or B or if A given B or something 
else? It is not possible to ascertain from what you've written.

- web
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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Joe Malin]

Hmmm. Doesn't make much sense to me.

In a *sentence* if a, then b, the word then isn't required. It's
really an emphasis attached to b. 

For example, you could say If you are using Windows, follow these
instructions: and omit the then. The word that really joins the two
phrases is if, which is a conjunction; if appears first because
you've reserved the phrase order. That is, by the way, the real reason
you need the comma.

To say If you are using Windows, and then follow these instructions is
grammatically incorrect. You have have *both* a *subordinate*
conjunction (if) and a *coordinate* conjunction (and) connecting the
same two phrases!


 Joe Malin
Technical Writer
(408)625-1623
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
www.tuvox.com
The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do not
necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers@frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If blah,
blah, then blah, blah. We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is right and what is wrong in editing . .
.in many cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional because we've always done it this
way. Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word and to such statements - if blah, blah, AND
then blah, blah. Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no and. I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the  if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[tammy.vanboen...@jeppesen.com]

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information 
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used 
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If <blah, blah>, 
then <blah, blah>. We have a new editor that just joined who is in the 
process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an 
opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . . .in many 
cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings 
about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some 
factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the 
emotional "because we've always done it this way." Years ago, I had such a 
reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which 
manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such 
statements - if <blah, blah>, AND then <blah, blah>. Both I and the other 
writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - 
no "and." I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation 
reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me 
First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find 
it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread 
here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would 
make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was 
developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
tammy.vanboening at jeppesen.com

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:22:20 -0600, Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com 
wrote:

>Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such statements - 
>if , AND then . Both I and the other 
>writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just 
>if/then - no "and."

Yikes.  You don't have to look for specific refs for
geekspeak, this is just plain bad grammar.  Look at
a grammar reference.  You don't use "and" to separate
a conditional clause from the rest of its sentence!

I'd seriously wonder if this person were qualified
to edit *anything*.  ;-)

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
http://www.omsys.com/

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

I think you need to screen for editors better. I'm not a grammarian by
any stretch of the imagination, but I certainly know you don't use a
coordinating conjunction to string together dependent clauses in that
manner.

If you want icecream, and then you buy some.

Makes absolutely no sense. Time to break out the wet noodle and start swinging.

On 6/29/06, Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com  
wrote:
> I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
> for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
> the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If <blah, blah>,
> then <blah, blah>. We have a new editor that just joined who is in the
> process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an
> opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . . .in many
> cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings
> about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some
> factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the
> emotional "because we've always done it this way." Years ago, I had such a
> reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which
> manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such
> statements - if <blah, blah>, AND then <blah, blah>. Both I and the other
> writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then -
> no "and." I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation
> reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me
> First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find
> it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread
> here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would
> make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was
> developed, but. . . .

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

Syntax for if/then statement

[Anne Robotti]

> Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to 
> such statements - if , AND then . 

But that doesn't even make sense grammatically!

The closest thing I can find is in the Microsoft Manual of Style for
Technical Publications, it's the if/when/whether thing. I know that
doesn't help.

Surely the fact that the mind instinctively shrinks in horror from the
sentence structure he's proposing should count for something though,
shouldn't it?

Anne



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OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Steve Rickaby]

At 11:22 -0600 29/6/06, Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com wrote:

>Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if blah>, AND then . Both I and the other writer disagree with the 
>editor on this one - it should be just if/then - no "and."

Boy are you going to have fun with your new editor.

If/then and If/then/else or If/then/eiseif/else have been the constructs in any 
programming language that I can remember working in. 'If/and then' introduces 
an element of confusion, as if the 'and' clause is a second 'if' condition, as 
in 'If A happens and then B, then C happens'. In hardware logic, this is the 
logic of an AND gate, which has the truth table:

A   B   Out

0   0   0
0   1   0
1   0   0
1   1   1

In other words, the output is only high if inputs A and B are high. What you 
want is the logic of a Yes gate (I just made that up), i.e. a straight piece of 
wire:

Input   Output

0   0
1   1

I.e. If input high, then output high.

Even more, 'if/and then' introduces a misleading temporal element, as if the 
result only occurs if the second condition occurred after the first.

What's his/her background? Cleanly not electronics or programming. Or editing, 
for that matter.

For references, just use the formal definitions of any high-level programming 
language, plus a good grammar book. If that's not enough, search in the works 
of any of the major professional communicators (Tufte?)
-- 
Steve

Syntax for if/then statement

[Jim Light]

Tammy,

It seems to me that "and" changes the meaning entirely!

When you say "If A, then B." It means that if A occurs or exists, B will
follow or exist.

If you say "If A, and then B." The sentence is rendered incomplete. It
makes B part of the original IF clause (I wouldn't use a comma when
"anding" two items) and leaves you hanging, waiting for the other shoe
to drop. "If A and then B, then C will soon follow.

For example: "If the new editor prevails, and then the boss buys into
it, then you have no choice but to type up your resume." 

Jim 

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+jlight=pillardata@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+jlight=pillardata.com at lists.frameusers.com] On
Behalf Of Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information

for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used

the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If <blah,
blah>, 
then <blah, blah>. We have a new editor that just joined who is in the 
process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an

opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . . .in
many 
cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial
meetings 
about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with
some 
factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the 
emotional "because we've always done it this way." Years ago, I had such
a 
reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember
which 
manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such 
statements - if <blah, blah>, AND then <blah, blah>. Both I and the
other 
writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then
- 
no "and." I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation 
reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me 
First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't
find 
it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin
thread 
here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then,
would 
make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was 
developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
tammy.vanboening at jeppesen.com
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OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[tammy.vanboen...@jeppesen.com]

Donald, Christine, Jeremy, et. al.

LOL!  This list makes my day. Believe you me, I would like to be blunt as 
some of you were in your emails (the responses were hysterical!), but I 
can summarize the responses (in a politically correct format, mind you!) 
and go from there.

Thanks for all of the replies, support and knowledge. We'll see how it 
ends up.

TVB

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
tammy.vanboening at jeppesen.com

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Martha J Davidson]

At 10:22 AM 6/29/2006, Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com wrote:
>Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such
>statements - if , AND then . Both I and the other
>writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then -
>no "and."

Tammy,

I think your editor is overreacting to the use of "then" following
a comma in an entirely different context. As other folks have said,
using if A, then B, is just good English; anything else won't parse.

In some procedural steps, there's a trend to say "Do A, then do B,"
which many editors prefer to change to "Do A, AND then to B." Your
editor seems to have mixed up these two very different uses of "then"
following an initial clause. Can you check with him/her to see if
this is a possible misinterpretation of the new--incorrect--recommendation?

martha

--
Martha Jane {Kolman | Davidson}
Dances With Words
editrix at nemasys.com

"Too many words bring about exhaustion."
  --Tao Te Ching, Chapter 5 (translated by Sheets/Tovey)

Syntax for if/then statement

[Beck, Charles]

Hi Tammy, 

Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on
your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of
Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further:
That style guide states that you should avoid the "if...then"
construction altogether and not use the word "then" at all in such
situations. That is, you should simply say something like "If
such-and-such is true, do this." 

This has also been the policy/practice with my past and present
employers and clients. I formerly also used "if...then" constructions
almost exclusively, so it was a challenge for me to adhere to this
standard when I first encountered it. But after thinking it through, I
eventually agreed that it is cleaner and more succinct. 

However, YMMV. In the end, it may come down to what your
company/organization decides to use as the standard. If that is the
case, it will come down to a question of who has the final authority to
make such decisions on behalf of the organization. Hopefully, that will
not be done willy-nilly, with no regard for the preferences of all
parties involved; but in the end, if you all just cannot agree,
*some*one has to be the final arbiter. If that is not you, you may have
to just be prepared to bite the bullet and go along with it.

Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough about
such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and
endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could
probably not care less.

FWIW,
Chuck Beck


-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+charles.beck=infor@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+charles.beck=infor.com at lists.frameusers.com] On
Behalf Of Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:22 PM
To: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If <blah,
blah>, then <blah, blah>. We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . .
.in many cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional "because we've always done it this
way." Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if <blah, blah>, AND
then <blah, blah>. Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no "and." I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the  if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
tammy.vanboening at jeppesen.com
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OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

But if you're asked for supporting facts, you'll print out all these
e-mails and hand them to your "editor", right? ;-)

On 6/29/06, Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com  
wrote:
> LOL!  This list makes my day. Believe you me, I would like to be blunt as
> some of you were in your emails (the responses were hysterical!), but I
> can summarize the responses (in a politically correct format, mind you!)
> and go from there.

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Beck, Charles]

One additional thought: Despite what I said in my previous post, I agree
with Jeremy. Your editor's construction is also not correct. You should
not be using either "and" OR "then" with conditional construct
statements. In this case, your editor's position (on reading closer) is
worse than the one you have been using. But it may turn out that neither
is really grammatically correct. 

BTW, I can't say what the Chicago Manual of Style says about such
things, because I do not have one handy, but it might be interesting to
see what that style guide says about this...

Cheers,
Chuck Beck



-Original Message-----
Subject: Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:22:20 -0600, Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com
wrote:

>Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if 
><blah, blah>, AND then <blah, blah>. Both I and the other writer 
>disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - no 
>"and."

Yikes.  You don't have to look for specific refs for geekspeak, this is
just plain bad grammar.  Look at a grammar reference.  You don't use
"and" to separate a conditional clause from the rest of its sentence!

I'd seriously wonder if this person were qualified to edit *anything*.
;-)

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
http://www.omsys.com/ 

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[eric.d...@ca.transport.bombardier.com]

Steve Rickaby wrote on 06/29/2006 01:47:56 PM:
> If/then and If/then/else or If/then/eiseif/else have been the 
> constructs in any programming language that I can remember working 
> in.

While I won't argue with the underlying point Steve's logic with respect 
to the addition of an AND clause to the sentence, I will pit nits and 
throw another view point into the mix.

Firstly, logically speaking, isn't there a difference between:
- If A, and then B
and
- If A and B

The first implies a wait or sequence between events A and B. It does not 
imply that the events are simultaneous nor that they need to be 
maintained. If A happens, stops, then six months later B happens, the 
first statement is true. The second statement is true only while both 
events are happening (and they could start in any order).

Secondly, Why does the sentence even contain "then" in the first place? 
(You don't even include THEN in If statements in many languages.)

Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

> For example: "If the new editor prevails, and then the boss buys into
> it, then you have no choice but to type up your resume."

Brilliant example! But let's end on a happy note...

Else hire a new editor. ;-)

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

Syntax for if/then statement

[Robert Shelton]

> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces+rshelton=opentext.com at lists.frameusers.com
> [mailto:framers-bounces+rshelton=opentext.com at lists.frameusers.com]On
> Behalf Of Beck, Charles
> 
> Hi Tammy, 
> 
> Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on
> your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of
> Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further:
> That style guide states that you should avoid the "if...then"
> construction altogether and not use the word "then" at all in such
> situations. That is, you should simply say something like "If
> such-and-such is true, do this." 

MMoS may not like "if..., then," but that doesn't mean it agrees with the 
editor. There's a big difference between saying the "then" is unnecessary and 
saying you need to add an "and."

> This has also been the policy/practice with my past and present
> employers and clients. I formerly also used "if...then" constructions
> almost exclusively, so it was a challenge for me to adhere to this
> standard when I first encountered it. But after thinking it through, I
> eventually agreed that it is cleaner and more succinct. 

For what it's worth, I rarely use "then" in this situation, but using "then" is 
much better than using "and then." As others have said, in this construction, 
that's just grammatically wrong.

Bob
"Love people. Use things. Not vice-versa." -- Kelly Rothaus

Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

> Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on
> your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of
> Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further:
> That style guide states that you should avoid the "if...then"
> construction altogether and not use the word "then" at all in such
> situations. That is, you should simply say something like "If
> such-and-such is true, do this."

Right, but the recommended construct is "if A, do B" not "if A, and do B"...

> Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough about
> such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and
> endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could
> probably not care less.

Actually, in the case of a "if/and then" construction, I'll bet the
readers would care and be just a tad bit confused.

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

You need to replace your new editor! Eek.

Here are some references that *might* be helpful, although none of them
*directly* answer your question.

http://users.ipfw.edu/blythes/teach/toolkit/dc.htm
http://grammar.uoregon.edu/clauses/dependent.html
http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaDependant_Clauses_and_Phrases.htm

Z


Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com wrote:
> All,
> 
> I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information 
> for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used 
> the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If <blah, blah>, 
> then <blah, blah>. We have a new editor that just joined who is in the 
> process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an 
> opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . . .in many 
> cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings 
> about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some 
> factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the 
> emotional "because we've always done it this way." Years ago, I had such a 
> reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which 
> manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such 
> statements - if <blah, blah>, AND then <blah, blah>. Both I and the other 
> writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - 
> no "and." I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation 
> reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me 
> First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find 
> it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread 
> here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would 
> make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was 
> developed, but. . . . 
> 
> Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.
>

Syntax for if/then statement

[Beck, Charles]

Right-o, Bill. I had neglected to notice the full context of the
construct, and issued my first response too hastily. My bad. 

However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, "If
such-and-such is true, then do this," or "If such-and-such is true, do
this."

Chuck


-Original Message-
From: Bill Swallow [mailto:techcommd...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 2:09 PM
To: Beck, Charles
Cc: Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com; framers at frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Syntax for if/then statement

> Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on 
> your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of 
> Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even
further:
> That style guide states that you should avoid the "if...then"
> construction altogether and not use the word "then" at all in such 
> situations. That is, you should simply say something like "If 
> such-and-such is true, do this."

Right, but the recommended construct is "if A, do B" not "if A, and do
B"...

> Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough 
> about such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and 
> endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could 
> probably not care less.

Actually, in the case of a "if/and then" construction, I'll bet the
readers would care and be just a tad bit confused.

--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

> However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
> and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, "If
> such-and-such is true, then do this," or "If such-and-such is true, do
> this."

Right, "then" is assumed, just as "you" is assumed in your examples. :-)

I'll bet many non-English languages will put "then" back in when it's
translated.

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[T.W. Smith]

I think there's two things going on here. But, the editor should be open to
discussion because she's a member of the team.

Anyway:

1) If X then Y is fine. The conditional clause can be introduced that way.

However, where I think the editor is going is the need for coordinating
conjunctions to avoid comma splices.

2) Click File, click New. That comma splice becomes, "Click File, then click
New." which is technically incorrect and ought be "Click File, and then
click New."

However, "Click File, then click New." works for me (though I use Click File
> New." or a semi-colon, depending on context.)

==
T.


I won. I voted for Char James-Tanny for STC secretary.

Syntax for if/then statement

[Patterson, Jan]

The Chicago Manual of Style, 15th Edition, section 5.182, says:

"Correlative conjunctions are used in pairs, often to join successive
clauses that depend on each other to form a complete thought . . . {If
the first claim is true, then the second claim must be false} . . . Some
examples of correlative conjunctions are as-as, if-then, either-or,
neither-nor . . ."

jan e patterson
environmental systems products - sr technical writer
tucson, az 85745

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+jan.patterson=esph@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+jan.patterson=esph.com at lists.frameusers.com] On
Behalf Of Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If <blah,
blah>, then <blah, blah>. We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . .
.in many cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional "because we've always done it this
way." Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if <blah, blah>, AND
then <blah, blah>. Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no "and." I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the  if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
tammy.vanboening at jeppesen.com
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Syntax for if/then statement

[Stuart Rogers]

Beck, Charles wrote:

> However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
> and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, "If
> such-and-such is true, then do this," or "If such-and-such is true, do
> this."

As always, consider your audience. Perhaps you write only for native 
speakers of American English. I write for an international audience; 
probably 80% of my readers have English as a second language. I always 
write "If..., then..." because it is the clearest way to signal the 
relationship of the clauses. It may be redundant in casual speech, but 
as signal theory tells us, redundancy helps ensure the right message is 
received.

And to Tammy -- good luck with that "editor".


-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in 
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification 
for selfishness."

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"The smartest export Canada ever sent to the United States."


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OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 2:04 PM -0400 6/29/06, eric.dunn at ca.transport.bombardier.com wrote:
>Firstly, logically speaking, isn't there a difference between:
>- If A, and then B
>and
>- If A and B

 From the point of view of someone who is used to such structures in 
programming languages the first variant would never be used; the "and" would 
simply not be there.

 Once you remove the "and" the meaning is clear. If "condition specified by A 
is true" then "condition specified by B is also true. And example might be 
(with apologies to the exceptional duckbill platapus)  If it nurses its young, 
then it is a mammal. Note that if you stick the "and" in there it changes 
everything, and as someone noted earlier, it makes the sentence incomplete.

 As for the second variant, it means quite simply "If the condition specified 
by A is true and the condition specified by B is also true, ..." but it also 
needs to be completed with some kind of outcome, generally specified by a 
"...then..." construct.


>The first implies a wait or sequence between events A and B. It does not
>imply that the events are simultaneous nor that they need to be
>maintained. If A happens, stops, then six months later B happens, the
>first statement is true.

 No. If you interpret it that way you need to have some consequence to complete 
the idea.


> The second statement is true only while both
>events are happening (and they could start in any order).

 Not necessarily "events happening"; more often than not it's "existing 
conditions".


>Secondly, Why does the sentence even contain "then" in the first place?
>(You don't even include THEN in If statements in many languages.)

 Because that's how the logic is described in words when B is a subset of A, or 
a condition that is always true if A is true.

 Folks seem to be tackling this from a grammatical perspective and consulting 
style manuals. These constructs come directly from the language of mathematics. 
The addition of the word "and" (which is a logical operator in its own right) 
just serves to confuse what is perfectly clear without it by making a complete 
thought incomplete (both logically and gramatically).

 - web

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Grant Hogarth]

To build still further on Eric's excellent discourse:

There also exists the possibility of a conditional dependency of action.
   E.g. "If your book wins a Pulitzer, [then] you 
 [will/can/must/shall/may/ought to/...] celebrate..."


- If A, then B (explicit consequence, implied (but not required)
order)
- If A and B   (explicit connection, both elements required)
- If A, and then B (explicit consequence, conditions must occur in fixed
order)
- If A, B  (explict set construction with tacit connection, but
no required sequence)

In the first three of these, the time separation element is implied as a
requirement; the first and third items its value is any greater than 0,
while the second implies simultenaity. The fourth item has no such time
requirement. In addition, the form "If A..." implicitly posits that 'A'
is an event of finite duration whose action has finished.  (Contrast:
"While A, B".)

Pedantically yours, 
Grant :-)

Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 2:13 PM -0400 6/29/06, Beck, Charles wrote:
>However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
>and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, "If
>such-and-such is true, then do this," or "If such-and-such is true, do
>this."

 I agree. In the second instance the "then" is implicit.

 - web

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 2:22 PM -0400 6/29/06, T.W. Smith wrote:
>2) Click File, click New. That comma splice becomes, "Click File, then click 
>New." which is technically incorrect and ought be "Click File, and then click 
>New."

 But this isn't even the same construct. This is an imperative; a set of 
instructions: do something and then do something else. You can't put an "if" in 
front of this and have it make sense. So it's not the same construct as "If 
condition A is true, then condition B is true" (or alternately, "If condition A 
is true, then do B"). Totally different things.

 - web

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 12:33 PM -0600 6/29/06, Grant Hogarth, self-professed pedant, wrote:
>To build still further on Eric's excellent discourse:
>
>There also exists the possibility of a conditional dependency of action.
>   E.g. "If your book wins a Pulitzer, [then] you
> [will/can/must/shall/may/ought to/...] celebrate..."
>
>
>- If A, then B (explicit consequence, implied (but not required)
>order)
>- If A and B   (explicit connection, both elements required)
>- If A, and then B (explicit consequence, conditions must occur in fixed
>order)
>- If A, B  (explict set construction with tacit connection, but
>no required sequence)
>
>In the first three of these, the time separation element is implied as a
>requirement;

 Sorry, but that's not so. My example in a previous message has no time element 
and satisfies the first just fine thank you. It's not necessary that these 
things are sequences of instructions, they can be existing conditions, which is 
how the constructs arise in logic and in programming any kind of logic based 
system.

 Further, the first instance is a complete notion. The second and third are not 
and require a consequence to complete the statement. The last is totally 
unclear to me. Is it "if A and B" or "if A or B" or "if A given B" or something 
else? It is not possible to ascertain from what you've written.

- web

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[eric.d...@ca.transport.bombardier.com]

Bill Briggs wrote on 06/29/2006 03:30:32 PM:
> At 2:04 PM -0400 6/29/06, eric.dunn at ca.transport.bombardier.com wrote:
> >Firstly, logically speaking, isn't there a difference between:
> >- If A, and then B
> >and
> >- If A and B

> From the point of view of someone who is used to such structures in 
> programming languages the first variant would never be used; the 
> "and" would simply not be there.

But it is how I would describe, in writing, the construct of nested Ifs:

  If A
{DO THIS}
If B
  {DO THIS}
EndIf
  EndIf
Where there may be any amount of code, waiting or looping before you get 
to the If B and indeed the end of the If A statement.

Or perhaps:

  If A
{Wait for B} -- specified or indeterminate wait time
  EndIf

Or perhaps:

  {Wait for A}
  If B
{DO THIS}
  EndIf 

In either of the above, A could become False at anytime after the test or 
after the wait as the test for B and the execution of the related code is 
not dependant on A.

The second one is simply

If (A) AND (B)
  {DO THIS}
EndIf

perhaps an interesting side step into logic, but pretty irrelevant to the 
thread.

Eric L. Dunn
Senior Technical Writer

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Syntax for if/then statement

[Joe Malin]

Hmmm. Doesn't make much sense to me.

In a *sentence* "if , then ", the word "then" isn't required. It's
really an emphasis attached to . 

For example, you could say "If you are using Windows, follow these
instructions:" and omit the "then". The word that really joins the two
phrases is "if", which is a conjunction; "if" appears first because
you've reserved the phrase order. That is, by the way, the real reason
you need the comma.

To say "If you are using Windows, and then follow these instructions" is
grammatically incorrect. You have have *both* a *subordinate*
conjunction (if) and a *coordinate* conjunction (and) connecting the
same two phrases!


 Joe Malin
Technical Writer
(408)625-1623
jmalin at tuvox.com 
www.tuvox.com
The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do not
necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox.com at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf
Of Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If <blah,
blah>, then <blah, blah>. We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . .
.in many cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional "because we've always done it this
way." Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if <blah, blah>, AND
then <blah, blah>. Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no "and." I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the  if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
tammy.vanboening at jeppesen.com
___


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