New figure object [was "Re: table and figure captions"]

2008-06-12 Thread Hedley Finger
Fred Ridder wrote:
> I think it would be a great idea if we could treat anchored
> frames as embedded objects with similar properties to tables. But I do
> think it would want to be implemented for anchored frames generically
> rather than just for figures since some documents use anchored frames
> (or single-cell tables) for things other than illustrations--things like
> spreadsheet fragments, code listings, and mathematical proofs. 

Of course, you wouldn't want the full folderol for an anchored frame 
with Anchor Position: At Insertion Point that contains a bitmap of, say, 
a button on a GUI.   8^)

> (Although
> if you read the article by a former IBM-er that was cited earlier in this
> thread you'd learn that we shoudl treat *all* non-text objects as a 
> single
> class rather than distinguishing tables vs. figures vs. equations, etc.)

Well, it might make sense for a programmer to do this behind the 
scenes.  But I don't really care how it is implemented, I just want a 
nice clean interface for inserting figures and some method of creating 
figure formats in a Figure Designer.  It would be extremely annoying to 
open An All-Purpose Object Designer to configure the type of object you 
wanted and to create all-purpose object formats.

>
> But what I completely fail to see is why handling figures in 
> single-celled
> tables is such a "pain to set up".

Yeah, it is so fun to (a) insert a single-celled table previously set up 
as a format, (b) import a graphic file or create an anchored frame into 
the single para in the cell, and (c) set the anchored frame to At 
Insertion Point so you can get the spacing even all around, and then (d) 
adjust the cell borders (or anchored frame border) to coincide of the 
figure has a ruled box around it.

Wouldn't it be great if you could just select a Figure format when you 
are in the file browser and the external graphic is imported into a 
figure all ready to fill in the blanks?

I just looked up a textbook on printing technologies (for training press 
operators, platemakers, etc.) and a doctoral dissertation.  The figures 
in those publications follow this model, pretty common in learned 
publications:


++
||
||
||
|   DIAGRAM HERE |
||
||
||
++

**Figure 2.34:** //Components of framistan//  // Title for LOF

The framistan is a complex device which // Caption
contains 12,000 components in about
the volume of a matchbox.

KEY:
1Discombobulator// Xref to fig label
2Hierogriffin
...
12,000   Pettifogger
  Credit: NASA (Saturn rocket)


How do you like them bananas in a table pretending to be a figure?  I 
prefer to put the figure title above, and the caption below, and I 
usually do it with:

@a figure title para (Keep With Next)

@an anchor para with an anchored frame At Insertion Point (allows 
you to use para properties to control space above/below, indentation), 
Keep With Previous

@a credit para with Keep With Previous

@one or more caption paras, all Keep With Previous, inc. any keys to 
labels in anchored frame

This arrangement keeps the figure "object" together.  I also use  the 
AutoText plug-in from  Silicon Prairie to paste in already set up figure 
"formats".  But, really, why isn't this stuff built in?  [NOTE: Adobe 
lurkers -- aren't the plethora of plug-ins for common tasks telling you 
what functionality you should be incorporating?]

It would be nice if a table/figure title could appear beside a 
table/figure, perhaps in the sidebar area of a page frame.

Regards,
Hedley

--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. "Hedley Finger" 



New figure object [was "Re: table and figure captions"]

2008-06-12 Thread Hedley Finger
Deirdre Reagan wrote:
> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
> Figure captions?
>   

You have had your answer elsewhere on this list.  But, seriously, why 
isn't there a figure object that is similar to a one-celled table, which 
is a pain to set up.

The new figure object would have:

@an anchor for the entire object,
@similar placement options to a table (top of page, bottom of page, 
etc.)
@be able to *float onto another page without dragging its anchor 
para after it* (fix tables too)
@contain an anchored frame, title, multi-para caption, and figure 
footnotes (like a table)
@a  Figure Designer dialogue where you could set various options (no 
title, title placement, borders and fill rulings and colours, etc.)
@the ability to output to MIF in a previous format where the figure 
components would be separated into separate objects (title para, 
anchored frame, caption para(s), or into a new MIF format where it was 
just a single object

While we are at it, for both figure and table you should be able to 
specify the placement of the title and caption/footnotes relative to the 
body: above, below, left side, right side, alternating left and right 
sides depending on pagination, etc.

I have been proposing this to Frame Technologies and Adobe since c. 
1798.  We live in hope.  Please feel free to forward this to your 
favourite Adobe contact/forum/blog if you think, this is a good idea

Regards,
Hedley

--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. "Hedley Finger" 




table and figure captions

2008-06-12 Thread Nidhi Bansal

Hi Deirdre,

I am not sure whether this information will help you out or not

Table Captions comes automatically, since in the Table>table Designer>Title
Position or the Caption (as we r discussing) on the Basic tab it is set as
Above Table/below table. You can set how the Table caption should look
through the Paragraph designer. Make a Format TCaption (or any other mane)
and in the Numbering tab set T: Table<$Chapmun>. or  

For the Figure, in numbering tab of paragraph designer
F:Figure<$chapnum>. or

Regards,
Nidhi 

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Deirdre Reagan
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 7:34 PM
To: Frame Users
Subject: table and figure captions

Hi all!

Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?

Thanks!

Deirdre
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New figure object [was "Re: table and figure captions"]

2008-06-12 Thread Mike Wickham
> Yeah, it is so fun to (a) insert a single-celled table previously set up
> as a format, (b) import a graphic file or create an anchored frame into
> the single para in the cell, and (c) set the anchored frame to At
> Insertion Point so you can get the spacing even all around, and then (d)
> adjust the cell borders (or anchored frame border) to coincide of the
> figure has a ruled box around it.
>
> Wouldn't it be great if you could just select a Figure format when you
> are in the file browser and the external graphic is imported into a
> figure all ready to fill in the blanks?

I like that idea. In the meantime, the inexpensive AutoText plugin is even
more capable. You can create sample tables for holding your graphics with
accompanying text, captions, callouts, etc. Then you can pluck the whole
thing from a menu whenever you need it.

For example, AutoText can pop in a table that includes a heading and text
placeholder in the left column. On the right are graphic and caption
placeholders to illustrate the text. All the appropriate paragraph tags--
heading, body, anchor, caption-- are in place. Even the paragraph tag that
holds the anchored frame is predefined. Just click and type or click
and insert the graphic. (I actually reprogrammed a function key to import
graphics.) My table also contains a separate anchored frame, attached to
the caption paragraph, that is set to Outside Column, Side Closer to Page
Edge, and is rotated 90?. I use this to display the photographer's name next
to the photo's edge. A figure style probably wouldn't have that capability.

Mike Wickham





Re: New figure object [was "Re: table and figure captions"]

2008-06-12 Thread Mike Wickham
> Yeah, it is so fun to (a) insert a single-celled table previously set up
> as a format, (b) import a graphic file or create an anchored frame into
> the single para in the cell, and (c) set the anchored frame to At
> Insertion Point so you can get the spacing even all around, and then (d)
> adjust the cell borders (or anchored frame border) to coincide of the
> figure has a ruled box around it.
>
> Wouldn't it be great if you could just select a Figure format when you
> are in the file browser and the external graphic is imported into a
> figure all ready to fill in the blanks?

I like that idea. In the meantime, the inexpensive AutoText plugin is even
more capable. You can create sample tables for holding your graphics with
accompanying text, captions, callouts, etc. Then you can pluck the whole
thing from a menu whenever you need it.

For example, AutoText can pop in a table that includes a heading and text
placeholder in the left column. On the right are graphic and caption
placeholders to illustrate the text. All the appropriate paragraph tags--
heading, body, anchor, caption-- are in place. Even the paragraph tag that
holds the anchored frame is predefined. Just click and type or click
and insert the graphic. (I actually reprogrammed a function key to import
graphics.) My table also contains a separate anchored frame, attached to
the caption paragraph, that is set to Outside Column, Side Closer to Page
Edge, and is rotated 90°. I use this to display the photographer's name next
to the photo's edge. A figure style probably wouldn't have that capability.

Mike Wickham



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New figure object [was "Re: table and figure captions"]

2008-06-12 Thread Fred Ridder

Responding to Deirdre Reagan's original query, Hedley Finger wrote
(in small part):

> Deirdre Reagan wrote:
> > Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
> > Figure captions?
> 
> You have had your answer elsewhere on this list. But, seriously, why 
> isn't there a figure object that is similar to a one-celled table, which 
> is a pain to set up.

I was thinking about this very idea after I posted my previous message
on this thread. I think it would be a great idea if we could treat anchored
frames as embedded objects with similar properties to tables. But I do
think it would want to be implemented for anchored frames generically
rather than just for figures since some documents use anchored frames
(or single-cell tables) for things other than illustrations--things like 
spreadsheet fragments, code listings, and mathematical proofs. (Although
if you read the article by a former IBM-er that was cited earlier in this 
thread you'd learn that we shoudl treat *all* non-text objects as a single 
class rather than distinguishing tables vs. figures vs. equations, etc.)

But what I completely fail to see is why handling figures in single-celled 
tables is such a "pain to set up". I've designed and used templates that
work both ways and I have to say that I don't have a clear preference.
Each has advantages and disadvantages. I do know from experience
that the single-cell table approach takes significantly more explaining 
when training new template users, but it's not hard to set up in the 
template, and only a little harder for writers to use than the paragraph-
based approach. 

-FR



_
It?s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows 
Live? Messenger. Learn how.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow


Re: New figure object [was "Re: table and figure captions"]

2008-06-12 Thread Hedley Finger
Fred Ridder wrote:
> I think it would be a great idea if we could treat anchored
> frames as embedded objects with similar properties to tables. But I do
> think it would want to be implemented for anchored frames generically
> rather than just for figures since some documents use anchored frames
> (or single-cell tables) for things other than illustrations--things like
> spreadsheet fragments, code listings, and mathematical proofs. 

Of course, you wouldn't want the full folderol for an anchored frame 
with Anchor Position: At Insertion Point that contains a bitmap of, say, 
a button on a GUI.   8^)

> (Although
> if you read the article by a former IBM-er that was cited earlier in this
> thread you'd learn that we shoudl treat *all* non-text objects as a 
> single
> class rather than distinguishing tables vs. figures vs. equations, etc.)

Well, it might make sense for a programmer to do this behind the 
scenes.  But I don't really care how it is implemented, I just want a 
nice clean interface for inserting figures and some method of creating 
figure formats in a Figure Designer.  It would be extremely annoying to 
open An All-Purpose Object Designer to configure the type of object you 
wanted and to create all-purpose object formats.

>
> But what I completely fail to see is why handling figures in 
> single-celled
> tables is such a "pain to set up".

Yeah, it is so fun to (a) insert a single-celled table previously set up 
as a format, (b) import a graphic file or create an anchored frame into 
the single para in the cell, and (c) set the anchored frame to At 
Insertion Point so you can get the spacing even all around, and then (d) 
adjust the cell borders (or anchored frame border) to coincide of the 
figure has a ruled box around it.

Wouldn't it be great if you could just select a Figure format when you 
are in the file browser and the external graphic is imported into a 
figure all ready to fill in the blanks?

I just looked up a textbook on printing technologies (for training press 
operators, platemakers, etc.) and a doctoral dissertation.  The figures 
in those publications follow this model, pretty common in learned 
publications:


++
||
||
||
|   DIAGRAM HERE |
||
||
||
++

**Figure 2.34:** //Components of framistan//  // Title for LOF

The framistan is a complex device which // Caption
contains 12,000 components in about
the volume of a matchbox.

KEY:
1Discombobulator// Xref to fig label
2Hierogriffin
...
12,000   Pettifogger
  Credit: NASA (Saturn rocket)


How do you like them bananas in a table pretending to be a figure?  I 
prefer to put the figure title above, and the caption below, and I 
usually do it with:

@a figure title para (Keep With Next)

@an anchor para with an anchored frame At Insertion Point (allows 
you to use para properties to control space above/below, indentation), 
Keep With Previous

@a credit para with Keep With Previous

@one or more caption paras, all Keep With Previous, inc. any keys to 
labels in anchored frame

This arrangement keeps the figure "object" together.  I also use  the 
AutoText plug-in from  Silicon Prairie to paste in already set up figure 
"formats".  But, really, why isn't this stuff built in?  [NOTE: Adobe 
lurkers -- aren't the plethora of plug-ins for common tasks telling you 
what functionality you should be incorporating?]

It would be nice if a table/figure title could appear beside a 
table/figure, perhaps in the sidebar area of a page frame.

Regards,
Hedley

--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. "Hedley Finger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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RE: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Nidhi Bansal

Hi Deirdre,

I am not sure whether this information will help you out or not

Table Captions comes automatically, since in the Table>table Designer>Title
Position or the Caption (as we r discussing) on the Basic tab it is set as
Above Table/below table. You can set how the Table caption should look
through the Paragraph designer. Make a Format TCaption (or any other mane)
and in the Numbering tab set T: Table<$Chapmun>. or  

For the Figure, in numbering tab of paragraph designer
F:Figure<$chapnum>. or

Regards,
Nidhi 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Deirdre Reagan
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 7:34 PM
To: Frame Users
Subject: table and figure captions

Hi all!

Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?

Thanks!

Deirdre
___


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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: New figure object [was "Re: table and figure captions"]

2008-06-11 Thread Fred Ridder

Responding to Deirdre Reagan's original query, Hedley Finger wrote
(in small part):
 
> Deirdre Reagan wrote:
> > Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
> > Figure captions?
> 
> You have had your answer elsewhere on this list. But, seriously, why 
> isn't there a figure object that is similar to a one-celled table, which 
> is a pain to set up.
 
I was thinking about this very idea after I posted my previous message
on this thread. I think it would be a great idea if we could treat anchored
frames as embedded objects with similar properties to tables. But I do
think it would want to be implemented for anchored frames generically
rather than just for figures since some documents use anchored frames
(or single-cell tables) for things other than illustrations--things like 
spreadsheet fragments, code listings, and mathematical proofs. (Although
if you read the article by a former IBM-er that was cited earlier in this 
thread you'd learn that we shoudl treat *all* non-text objects as a single 
class rather than distinguishing tables vs. figures vs. equations, etc.)
 
But what I completely fail to see is why handling figures in single-celled 
tables is such a "pain to set up". I've designed and used templates that
work both ways and I have to say that I don't have a clear preference.
Each has advantages and disadvantages. I do know from experience
that the single-cell table approach takes significantly more explaining 
when training new template users, but it's not hard to set up in the 
template, and only a little harder for writers to use than the paragraph-
based approach. 
 
-FR
 
 
 
_
It’s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows 
Live™ Messenger. Learn how.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow
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New figure object [was "Re: table and figure captions"]

2008-06-11 Thread Hedley Finger
Deirdre Reagan wrote:
> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
> Figure captions?
>   

You have had your answer elsewhere on this list.  But, seriously, why 
isn't there a figure object that is similar to a one-celled table, which 
is a pain to set up.

The new figure object would have:

@an anchor for the entire object,
@similar placement options to a table (top of page, bottom of page, 
etc.)
@be able to *float onto another page without dragging its anchor 
para after it* (fix tables too)
@contain an anchored frame, title, multi-para caption, and figure 
footnotes (like a table)
@a  Figure Designer dialogue where you could set various options (no 
title, title placement, borders and fill rulings and colours, etc.)
@the ability to output to MIF in a previous format where the figure 
components would be separated into separate objects (title para, 
anchored frame, caption para(s), or into a new MIF format where it was 
just a single object

While we are at it, for both figure and table you should be able to 
specify the placement of the title and caption/footnotes relative to the 
body: above, below, left side, right side, alternating left and right 
sides depending on pagination, etc.

I have been proposing this to Frame Technologies and Adobe since c. 
1798.  We live in hope.  Please feel free to forward this to your 
favourite Adobe contact/forum/blog if you think, this is a good idea

Regards,
Hedley

--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. "Hedley Finger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Peter Gold
Perhaps I'm missing something in your requirements, or I'm
misunderstanding your description, but another option is to create
text frames in anchored frames that contain the graphics, and tag the
caption paragraph with an autonumbered format that tracks the figure
numbers. Numbering in text frames in anchored frames in the same text
flow will track correctly with each other, and other paragraphs that
use the same autonumber series (identified by a prefix letter and
colon, such as S:) in the same text flow will also track correctly.
Extracted figure titles in TOCs will be in the correct order.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices


table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Shmuel Wolfson
For figures, you can have a paragraph (style such as Figure style) with 
the next paragraph style defined as a Figure Caption style.


Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson




Shuttleworth, Roger wrote:
> Hello Deirdre
>
> The presence of a table caption is determined by the table format as shown in 
> the Table Designer. You can set it to "No title" if you wish.
>
> Figure captions are just paragraphs that you may or may not want to insert.
>
> If you are using structured FrameMaker, you can have a figure caption 
> inserted automatically every time you insert a figure.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Roger
>
> Roger Shuttleworth
> Technical Publications
> TVWorks Canada, Inc.
> 150 Dufferin Avenue
> London, Ontario
> N6A 5N6
> Canada
> Tel. 519 963-4368
> www.tvworks.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at 
> lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Deirdre Reagan
> Sent: June 11, 2008 10:04 AM
> To: Frame Users
> Subject: table and figure captions
>
> Hi all!
>
> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
> Figure captions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Deirdre
> ___
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>   


Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Peter Gold
Perhaps I'm missing something in your requirements, or I'm
misunderstanding your description, but another option is to create
text frames in anchored frames that contain the graphics, and tag the
caption paragraph with an autonumbered format that tracks the figure
numbers. Numbering in text frames in anchored frames in the same text
flow will track correctly with each other, and other paragraphs that
use the same autonumber series (identified by a prefix letter and
colon, such as S:) in the same text flow will also track correctly.
Extracted figure titles in TOCs will be in the correct order.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Paul Findon
On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:46, Peter Gold wrote:

> One problem to be aware of when using single-cell tables with titles
> for graphics: If you specify paragraphs in the table-title area for
> generated TOCs, they will not be in the expected order because FM
> collects them from the page after it collects standard paragraphs.

I remember that little gotcha from years ago, but hasn't it been  
fixed? Just did a quick test with Mac FrameMaker 7.0 and it works OK.

One related gotcha, however, is that if you apply master pages to  
specific paragraph tags by using the UnstructMasterPageMaps on the  
reference pages, if those paras are in table cells, the master pages  
don't get applied.

May be that's been fixed in FM 8?

Paul


table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Jim Owens
Thanks for the explanation, but automated figure numbering is not 
impossible. You could define different Figure objects the same way you 
now define different Table objects, and have the title turned off for 
some figure objects and on for others, just as you can with tables.

When I migrated to Frame from Ventura many years ago, the lack of 
automated figure titles bothered me. In Ventura, not only did you have 
an automated figure title, you could position it top, bottom, left or 
right. In Frame the "answer" was to use a table. You can make this work, 
but it sure feels like a workaround.

The other practice in Frame, of placing a figure title as a separate 
paragraph in the text flow and anchoring the figure to it, is a bit of a 
workaround also. For paper output it removes any hope of controlling 
page breaks in a predictable fashion. On the other hand, if you move the 
figure title paragraph to an arbitrary spot to save your printed output 
from awkward breaks, your online help output suffers. And if you want to 
repurpose your text, the figure title paragraphs show up in the middle 
of it. Then you add conditional text markers, I suppose.

Frame supports floating figures, and they work pretty well most of the 
time. But we've moved away from floating figures for various reasons: 
they require a bit of extra DTP effort to use, they supposedly don't 
integrate well with online help output, and there's a theory that, for 
useability, when you mention a figure it has to be right there, not on 
the next page. (Personally, I don't find that floating figures interfere 
with the useability of professionally laid out magazines like _American 
Scientist_.  On the contrary, they're very convenient.)  And besides, 
floating figures don't have automated figure numbering, so you have to 
add a paragraph to the text flow anyway.

I for one am not convinced. Did we just give up?  Should Frame support 
automated figure numbers?









Fred Ridder wrote:
> Deirdre Reagan asked:
>  
>> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
>> Figure captions?
>  
> Tables are well-defined encapsulated objects, and one of the properties
> that is defined is an optional Title object. If you define a table format
> to include a Title object, every table that you assign that format to
> will have a title frame to contain your title string. But you can also 
> define a table format that does not have a Title.
>  
> Figures, on the other hand, are not uniquely defined objects. There are 
> at least three different methods that are commonly used to insert a 
> figure (an anchored frame in the text flow, an unanchored frame in a
> fixed location on a page, or in an anchored frame in a table cell), so 
> there is no single place where a caption property could be defined to 
> apply in all cases. 
>  
> But a potentially workable solution is to always encapsulate figures in
> a single-cell table, since tables *do* have a defined Title object. This
> does limit flexibility somewhat regarding horizontal positioning (tables
> have their own logic of how and when to span columns and sidehead
> areas), but also has a few small additional benefits, like making it 
> very easy to globally or individually add/remove border rulings around
> figures, and providing facilities for encapsulating notes with the figure.
>  
> -FR
> _
> It?s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through 
> Windows Live? Messenger. Learn how.
> https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow
> ___
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> 
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table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Deirdre Reagan
Thanks everyone for the responses.  Jerilynne, thank you especially
for the very interesting use of tables for graphics!  I will have to
try that.

ps when I wrote table caption I meant "Table1: This is the table
caption"  I don't know if I'm using the correct terminology.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Jerilynne Knight
 wrote:
> Hi Deirdre
>
> Welcome back from class! I don't know the why (other than anchored Frames
> don't have that function). And the only way a table automatically creates a
> caption is if the "Add Title" option is turned on for a table.
>
> So, my workaround?
>
> I create a table format specifically to hold graphics. I know, kinda sounds
> like taking a shower with your shoes on. However, since I've used FrameMaker
> since 1992, this seems to be the best solution I've found. I use it whether
> the format calls for captions or not.
>
> There is a bit of set up to get it working correctly and, once set up, it
> isn't too hard to maintain. Others may have a different approach and this
> one was a great tool when I was converting 6500 pages of text from
> WordPerfect to Frame AND the client decided midstream to change the
> alignment of their graphics from left aligned to centered. I was able to
> change the table format and everything was good...in just a few minutes.
>
> Here is what I do:
>
> Set up part 1: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphic
> I use separate tags for many things, including anchored tables and anchored
> graphics because it provides more control when converting to other formats,
> such as help. In Frame 7.x, the smallest font size is 2 points, so I use
> that to take up as little extra space as possible. Turning off the Fixed
> option means the row height will expand and shrink as needed to fit the
> graphic you insert. The reason for the "in column" in the tag name is
> because some graphics span the width of the sidehead area and some don't. I
> actually have another paragraph tag for those that span both areas.
>
> Create a specific paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphics (mine is
> called "AIC Anchored Images In Column")
> Set the font size to 2 points
> Set the line spacing to 2 points
> Turn off the Fixed option
> Save the tag with all the changes
>
> Set up part 2: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored table
>
> Create a specific paragraph tag to hold the anchored tables (mine is called
> "ATC Anchored Tables In Column")
> Set the font size to 2 points
> Set the line spacing to 2 points
> Turn off the Fixed option
> Save the tag with all the changes
>
> Set up part 3: Create a paragraph tag for your Table Caption
>
> Create a paragraph tag to format your Table Caption (mine is called FC
> Figure Caption)
> Save all changes
>
> Set up part 4: Create a table format to hold your graphics
> Officially, Frame 7 (I don't know about 8), doesn't store the column widths
> or paragraph tags in the Table Designer. However, it does remember
>
> Insert a blank table with 1 row and 1 column
> Apply the anchored graphics tag to the row (note: it will become darned near
> unreadable since it is a 2 point font...if you have problems seeing it, you
> can temporarily change the font size, then change it back)
> Set the Title Position for your caption
> Apply the figure caption tag for your figure caption
> Highlight the entire table
> Open the Table Designer
> Name the table format (mine is either Images In Column or Images Full Width,
> depending on what I'm using it for)
> Save the table format
>
> Use what you created
> Now that the component formats are created, here is what you do when you're
> ready to insert a figure/graphic. I always use a blank paragraph tag to
> anchor tables and graphics, so that is how these instructions are written.
> Tip; If you immediately import the file, you won't have to try to position
> your cursor in that tiny little space left by the 2 point paragraph tag.
>
> Position your cursor where the figure is to be inserted
> Add a blank paragraph
> Apply the anchored table tag (ATC Anchored Tables In Column in my example)
> Select Table > Insert table
> Select the table format you created to hold figures (Column or Images Full
> Width in my example)
> Click Insert
> Select File > Import > File
> Import your graphic
> Adjust dpi and other settings, if appropriate
> Resize the graphic, if needed
> Press esc m P to shrinkwrap the anchored frame around the graphic
> Add the figure title to the title row
>
> This is my processs...and hopefully it will help you a bit...
>
> Hugs
> Jerilynne
>
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Deirdre Reagan 
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all!
>>
>>
>


table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Deirdre Reagan
Thank you Fred for explaining the "why."  And thank you to Jerilynne
for explaning how to turn tables into graphic capsules!

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Fred Ridder  wrote:
> Deirdre Reagan asked:
>
>> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
>> Figure captions?
>
> Tables are well-defined encapsulated objects, and one of the properties
> that is defined is an optional Title object. If you define a table format
> to include a Title object, every table that you assign that format to
> will have a title frame to contain your title string. But you can also
> define a table format that does not have a Title.
>
> Figures, on the other hand, are not uniquely defined objects. There are
> at least three different methods that are commonly used to insert a
> figure (an anchored frame in the text flow, an unanchored frame in a
> fixed location on a page, or in an anchored frame in a table cell), so
> there is no single place where a caption property could be defined to
> apply in all cases.
>
> But a potentially workable solution is to always encapsulate figures in
> a single-cell table, since tables *do* have a defined Title object. This
> does limit flexibility somewhat regarding horizontal positioning (tables
> have their own logic of how and when to span columns and sidehead
> areas), but also has a few small additional benefits, like making it
> very easy to globally or individually add/remove border rulings around
> figures, and providing facilities for encapsulating notes with the figure.
>
> -FR
>
> 
> It's easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through
> Windows Live? Messenger. Learn How.


table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Stuart Rogers
Jerilynne Knight wrote:
> Set up part 1: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphic
> I use separate tags for many things, including anchored tables and anchored
> graphics because it provides more control when converting to other formats,
> such as help. In Frame 7.x, the smallest font size is 2 points, so I use
> that to take up as little extra space as possible. ...
> 

Jerilynne,

Very thorough instructions!  But there's a way to avoid *any* extra 
space for the container pgf:  set its Space Below to a negative number, 
and set the Table's Space Above to the same negative number.  The table 
will overlap the containing pgf exactly, without even a 2-pt gap.

The negative number can be any value as long as its absolute value is 
larger than the font size of the containing pgf.

This method has the second advantage of leaving the containing pgf's 
pilcrow symbol visible (a 2-pt pilcrow is not).  You can set a font 
colour for the containing pgf as well, to make the pilcrow stand out 
even more -- very useful when the pgf is empty.

Best regards,

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

Lucy: Charlie Brown, life is like a deck chair on a cruise ship. 
Passengers open up these canvas deck chairs so they can sit in the sun. 
Some people place their chairs facing the rear of the ship so they can 
see where they've been. Other people face their chairs forward -- they 
want to see where they're going. On the cruise ship of life, which way 
is your deck chair facing?

Charlie Brown: "I've never been able to get one unfolded."

-- Charles Schulz


table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Lester C. Smalley
I'd amend this caution with the items in the TOC MAY not be in the
expected order: if there are multiple items being extracted from the
same page, FM will grab everything applicable from the standard flow
first then anything in the tables next.

On Wednesday, June 11, 2008 10:46, Peter Gold wrote:

| One problem to be aware of when using single-cell tables with titles
| for graphics: If you specify paragraphs in the table-title area for
| generated TOCs, they will not be in the expected order because FM
| collects them from the page after it collects standard paragraphs.
| 
| HTH
| 
| Regards,
| 
| Peter
| __
| Peter Gold
| KnowHow ProServices

- Lester 
---
Lester C. Smalley  Email: lsmalley AT infocon DOT com   
Information Consultants, Inc.  Phone: 302-239-2942 FAX: 302-239-1712
Yorklyn, DE  19736   Web: www.infocon.com   
---



table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Lester C. Smalley
The issue I see is does the resulting structure still validate?

If you have control over the DTD/Schema, you can resolve that problem by
modifying the structural definition; if not you will have to do some
very fancy translation on export (or import), or leave figures as
non-table objects. 

On the whole, I very much like having figures in tables because of the
noted capabilities - automatic captioning, ability to trivially create a
ruling box, and placement flexibility except for in-line with other
text.

On Wednesday, June 11, 2008 10:32, Milan Davidovic wrote:

| On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Jerilynne Knight

| wrote:
|
| > I create a table format specifically to hold graphics.
| 
| Is this in structured or unstructured Frame? If the latter, can anyone
| see a problem with doing it in the former?
| 
| --
| Milan Davidovic
| http://altmilan.blogspot.com

- Lester 
---
Lester C. Smalley  Email: lsmalley AT infocon DOT com   
Information Consultants, Inc.  Phone: 302-239-2942 FAX: 302-239-1712
Yorklyn, DE  19736   Web: www.infocon.com   
---



table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Mike Wickham
Deirdre,

I also use the "single-celled table with title" method for inserting 
graphics with captions, but since you mentioned both figures and tables, I 
want to add a suggestion to the good advice others have given.

Consider using a single numbering system for all graphics. It greatly 
simplifies things. A reference to "see table 7" doesn't tell you where to 
look for it. Table 7 might fall before Figure 1, for example. It's 
unintuitive and confusing. If a cross-reference says to see Table 7 and that 
table is several chapters away, it becomes very difficult to find. Having 
all the graphics numbered in a single series makes life easier for the 
reader. Figure 7 is always after Figure 6 and before Figure 8.

Here's a link to a short article about an IBM study that concluded it is 
best to simply call everything a figure and number it in a single series: 
http://www.techknowledgecorp.com/nonum.html.

Mike Wickham




Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Jim Owens
Thanks for the explanation, but automated figure numbering is not 
impossible. You could define different Figure objects the same way you 
now define different Table objects, and have the title turned off for 
some figure objects and on for others, just as you can with tables.

When I migrated to Frame from Ventura many years ago, the lack of 
automated figure titles bothered me. In Ventura, not only did you have 
an automated figure title, you could position it top, bottom, left or 
right. In Frame the "answer" was to use a table. You can make this work, 
but it sure feels like a workaround.

The other practice in Frame, of placing a figure title as a separate 
paragraph in the text flow and anchoring the figure to it, is a bit of a 
workaround also. For paper output it removes any hope of controlling 
page breaks in a predictable fashion. On the other hand, if you move the 
figure title paragraph to an arbitrary spot to save your printed output 
from awkward breaks, your online help output suffers. And if you want to 
repurpose your text, the figure title paragraphs show up in the middle 
of it. Then you add conditional text markers, I suppose.

Frame supports floating figures, and they work pretty well most of the 
time. But we've moved away from floating figures for various reasons: 
they require a bit of extra DTP effort to use, they supposedly don't 
integrate well with online help output, and there's a theory that, for 
useability, when you mention a figure it has to be right there, not on 
the next page. (Personally, I don't find that floating figures interfere 
with the useability of professionally laid out magazines like _American 
Scientist_.  On the contrary, they're very convenient.)  And besides, 
floating figures don't have automated figure numbering, so you have to 
add a paragraph to the text flow anyway.

I for one am not convinced. Did we just give up?  Should Frame support 
automated figure numbers?









Fred Ridder wrote:
> Deirdre Reagan asked:
>  
>> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
>> Figure captions?
>  
> Tables are well-defined encapsulated objects, and one of the properties
> that is defined is an optional Title object. If you define a table format
> to include a Title object, every table that you assign that format to
> will have a title frame to contain your title string. But you can also 
> define a table format that does not have a Title.
>  
> Figures, on the other hand, are not uniquely defined objects. There are 
> at least three different methods that are commonly used to insert a 
> figure (an anchored frame in the text flow, an unanchored frame in a
> fixed location on a page, or in an anchored frame in a table cell), so 
> there is no single place where a caption property could be defined to 
> apply in all cases. 
>  
> But a potentially workable solution is to always encapsulate figures in
> a single-cell table, since tables *do* have a defined Title object. This
> does limit flexibility somewhat regarding horizontal positioning (tables
> have their own logic of how and when to span columns and sidehead
> areas), but also has a few small additional benefits, like making it 
> very easy to globally or individually add/remove border rulings around
> figures, and providing facilities for encapsulating notes with the figure.
>  
> -FR
> _
> It’s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through 
> Windows Live™ Messenger. Learn how.
> https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
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table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Jerilynne Knight
Hi Stuart

Thanks for the tip! I use that approach for notes sitting "beside" the note
text and had never thought to use it for this purpose. I LOVE this list!

Blessings
Jerilynne


On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Stuart Rogers <
srogers at phoenix-geophysics.com> wrote:

> Jerilynne Knight wrote:
>
>> Set up part 1: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphic
>> I use separate tags for many things, including anchored tables and
>> anchored
>> graphics because it provides more control when converting to other
>> formats,
>> such as help. In Frame 7.x, the smallest font size is 2 points, so I use
>> that to take up as little extra space as possible. ...
>>
>>
>


table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Peter Gold
Thanks for checking, Paul. I don't pull out table titles for TOCs, so
I wasn't aware of the fix.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Paul Findon  wrote:
> On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:46, Peter Gold wrote:
>
>> One problem to be aware of when using single-cell tables with titles
>> for graphics: If you specify paragraphs in the table-title area for
>> generated TOCs, they will not be in the expected order because FM
>> collects them from the page after it collects standard paragraphs.
>
> I remember that little gotcha from years ago, but hasn't it been
> fixed? Just did a quick test with Mac FrameMaker 7.0 and it works OK.
>
> One related gotcha, however, is that if you apply master pages to
> specific paragraph tags by using the UnstructMasterPageMaps on the
> reference pages, if those paras are in table cells, the master pages
> don't get applied.

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices


table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Fred Ridder

Deirdre Reagan asked:

> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
> Figure captions?

Tables are well-defined encapsulated objects, and one of the properties
that is defined is an optional Title object. If you define a table format
to include a Title object, every table that you assign that format to
will have a title frame to contain your title string. But you can also 
define a table format that does not have a Title.

Figures, on the other hand, are not uniquely defined objects. There are 
at least three different methods that are commonly used to insert a 
figure (an anchored frame in the text flow, an unanchored frame in a
fixed location on a page, or in an anchored frame in a table cell), so 
there is no single place where a caption property could be defined to 
apply in all cases. 

But a potentially workable solution is to always encapsulate figures in
a single-cell table, since tables *do* have a defined Title object. This
does limit flexibility somewhat regarding horizontal positioning (tables
have their own logic of how and when to span columns and sidehead
areas), but also has a few small additional benefits, like making it 
very easy to globally or individually add/remove border rulings around
figures, and providing facilities for encapsulating notes with the figure.

-FR
_
It?s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows 
Live? Messenger. Learn how.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow


table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Milan Davidovic
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Jerilynne Knight
 wrote:
> I create a table format specifically to hold graphics.

Is this in structured or unstructured Frame? If the latter, can anyone
see a problem with doing it in the former?

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com


table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Shuttleworth, Roger
Hello Deirdre

The presence of a table caption is determined by the table format as shown in 
the Table Designer. You can set it to "No title" if you wish.

Figure captions are just paragraphs that you may or may not want to insert.

If you are using structured FrameMaker, you can have a figure caption inserted 
automatically every time you insert a figure.

Hope this helps.

Roger

Roger Shuttleworth
Technical Publications
TVWorks Canada, Inc.
150 Dufferin Avenue
London, Ontario
N6A 5N6
Canada
Tel. 519 963-4368
www.tvworks.com

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Deirdre Reagan
Sent: June 11, 2008 10:04 AM
To: Frame Users
Subject: table and figure captions

Hi all!

Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?

Thanks!

Deirdre
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table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Rick Quatro
Hi Deidre,

Because Tables and Anchored Frames are two different animals. Here is a 
solution that many have used over the years: put the figure inside an 
anchored frame inside of a single-cell table.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing
585-659-8267
www.frameexpert.com


> Hi all!
>
> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
> Figure captions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Deirdre
> ___



table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Lief Erickson
I place my captions/titles above the image or table so that when the
users click a link (to the caption) in the online help or PDFs, the
image or table is still on the screen or page. If you link to captions
that are below images, users have to scroll up to see the image. It's a
minor hassle, but one that is easily avoided.

-Lief

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Shmuel
Wolfson
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 9:54 AM
To: Shuttleworth, Roger
Cc: Frame Users
Subject: Re: table and figure captions

For figures, you can have a paragraph (style such as Figure style) with 
the next paragraph style defined as a Figure Caption style.


Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson




Shuttleworth, Roger wrote:
> Hello Deirdre
>
> The presence of a table caption is determined by the table format as
shown in the Table Designer. You can set it to "No title" if you wish.
>
> Figure captions are just paragraphs that you may or may not want to
insert.
>
> If you are using structured FrameMaker, you can have a figure caption
inserted automatically every time you insert a figure.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Roger
>
> Roger Shuttleworth
> Technical Publications
> TVWorks Canada, Inc.
> 150 Dufferin Avenue
> London, Ontario
> N6A 5N6
> Canada
> Tel. 519 963-4368
> www.tvworks.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Deirdre
Reagan
> Sent: June 11, 2008 10:04 AM
> To: Frame Users
> Subject: table and figure captions
>
> Hi all!
>
> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
> Figure captions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Deirdre
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as
Roger_Shuttleworth at tvworks.com.
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table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Deirdre Reagan
Hi all!

Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?

Thanks!

Deirdre


table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Peter Gold
One problem to be aware of when using single-cell tables with titles
for graphics: If you specify paragraphs in the table-title area for
generated TOCs, they will not be in the expected order because FM
collects them from the page after it collects standard paragraphs.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices


Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Rick Quatro
Hi Deidre,

Because Tables and Anchored Frames are two different animals. Here is a 
solution that many have used over the years: put the figure inside an 
anchored frame inside of a single-cell table.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing
585-659-8267
www.frameexpert.com


> Hi all!
>
> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
> Figure captions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Deirdre
> ___

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table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Jerilynne Knight
Hi Deirdre

Welcome back from class! I don't know the why (other than anchored Frames
don't have that function). And the only way a table automatically creates a
caption is if the "Add Title" option is turned on for a table.

So, my workaround?

I create a table format specifically to hold graphics. I know, kinda sounds
like taking a shower with your shoes on. However, since I've used FrameMaker
since 1992, this seems to be the best solution I've found. I use it whether
the format calls for captions or not.

There is a bit of set up to get it working correctly and, once set up, it
isn't too hard to maintain. Others may have a different approach and this
one was a great tool when I was converting 6500 pages of text from
WordPerfect to Frame AND the client decided midstream to change the
alignment of their graphics from left aligned to centered. I was able to
change the table format and everything was good...in just a few minutes.

Here is what I do:

Set up part 1: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphic
I use separate tags for many things, including anchored tables and anchored
graphics because it provides more control when converting to other formats,
such as help. In Frame 7.x, the smallest font size is 2 points, so I use
that to take up as little extra space as possible. Turning off the Fixed
option means the row height will expand and shrink as needed to fit the
graphic you insert. The reason for the "in column" in the tag name is
because some graphics span the width of the sidehead area and some don't. I
actually have another paragraph tag for those that span both areas.

   1. Create a specific paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphics (mine is
   called "AIC Anchored Images In Column")
   2. Set the font size to 2 points
   3. Set the line spacing to 2 points
   4. Turn off the Fixed option
   5. Save the tag with all the changes

Set up part 2: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored table


   1. Create a specific paragraph tag to hold the anchored tables (mine is
   called "ATC Anchored Tables In Column")
   2. Set the font size to 2 points
   3. Set the line spacing to 2 points
   4. Turn off the Fixed option
   5. Save the tag with all the changes

Set up part 3: Create a paragraph tag for your Table Caption

   1. Create a paragraph tag to format your Table Caption (mine is called FC
   Figure Caption)
   2. Save all changes

Set up part 4: Create a table format to hold your graphics
Officially, Frame 7 (I don't know about 8), doesn't store the column widths
or paragraph tags in the Table Designer. However, it does remember

   1. Insert a blank table with 1 row and 1 column
   2. Apply the anchored graphics tag to the row (note: it will become
   darned near unreadable since it is a 2 point font...if you have problems
   seeing it, you can temporarily change the font size, then change it back)
   3. Set the Title Position for your caption
   4. Apply the figure caption tag for your figure caption
   5. Highlight the entire table
   6. Open the Table Designer
   7. Name the table format (mine is either Images In Column or Images Full
   Width, depending on what I'm using it for)
   8. Save the table format

Use what you created
Now that the component formats are created, here is what you do when you're
ready to insert a figure/graphic. I always use a blank paragraph tag to
anchor tables and graphics, so that is how these instructions are written.
Tip; If you immediately import the file, you won't have to try to position
your cursor in that tiny little space left by the 2 point paragraph tag.


   1. Position your cursor where the figure is to be inserted
   2. Add a blank paragraph
   3. Apply the anchored table tag (ATC Anchored Tables In Column in my
   example)
   4. Select Table > Insert table
   5. Select the table format you created to hold figures (Column or Images
   Full Width in my example)
   6. Click Insert
   7. Select File > Import > File
   8. Import your graphic
   9. Adjust dpi and other settings, if appropriate
   10. Resize the graphic, if needed
   11. Press esc m P to shrinkwrap the anchored frame around the graphic
   12. Add the figure title to the title row

This is my processs...and hopefully it will help you a bit...

Hugs
Jerilynne

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Deirdre Reagan 
wrote:

> Hi all!
>
>
>


Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Mike Wickham
Deirdre,

I also use the "single-celled table with title" method for inserting 
graphics with captions, but since you mentioned both figures and tables, I 
want to add a suggestion to the good advice others have given.

Consider using a single numbering system for all graphics. It greatly 
simplifies things. A reference to "see table 7" doesn't tell you where to 
look for it. Table 7 might fall before Figure 1, for example. It's 
unintuitive and confusing. If a cross-reference says to see Table 7 and that 
table is several chapters away, it becomes very difficult to find. Having 
all the graphics numbered in a single series makes life easier for the 
reader. Figure 7 is always after Figure 6 and before Figure 8.

Here's a link to a short article about an IBM study that concluded it is 
best to simply call everything a figure and number it in a single series: 
http://www.techknowledgecorp.com/nonum.html.

Mike Wickham


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Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Jerilynne Knight
Hi Stuart

Thanks for the tip! I use that approach for notes sitting "beside" the note
text and had never thought to use it for this purpose. I LOVE this list!

Blessings
Jerilynne


On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Stuart Rogers <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jerilynne Knight wrote:
>
>> Set up part 1: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphic
>> I use separate tags for many things, including anchored tables and
>> anchored
>> graphics because it provides more control when converting to other
>> formats,
>> such as help. In Frame 7.x, the smallest font size is 2 points, so I use
>> that to take up as little extra space as possible. ...
>>
>>
>
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Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Peter Gold
Thanks for checking, Paul. I don't pull out table titles for TOCs, so
I wasn't aware of the fix.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Paul Findon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:46, Peter Gold wrote:
>
>> One problem to be aware of when using single-cell tables with titles
>> for graphics: If you specify paragraphs in the table-title area for
>> generated TOCs, they will not be in the expected order because FM
>> collects them from the page after it collects standard paragraphs.
>
> I remember that little gotcha from years ago, but hasn't it been
> fixed? Just did a quick test with Mac FrameMaker 7.0 and it works OK.
>
> One related gotcha, however, is that if you apply master pages to
> specific paragraph tags by using the UnstructMasterPageMaps on the
> reference pages, if those paras are in table cells, the master pages
> don't get applied.

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Deirdre Reagan
Thanks everyone for the responses.  Jerilynne, thank you especially
for the very interesting use of tables for graphics!  I will have to
try that.

ps when I wrote table caption I meant "Table1: This is the table
caption"  I don't know if I'm using the correct terminology.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Jerilynne Knight
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Deirdre
>
> Welcome back from class! I don't know the why (other than anchored Frames
> don't have that function). And the only way a table automatically creates a
> caption is if the "Add Title" option is turned on for a table.
>
> So, my workaround?
>
> I create a table format specifically to hold graphics. I know, kinda sounds
> like taking a shower with your shoes on. However, since I've used FrameMaker
> since 1992, this seems to be the best solution I've found. I use it whether
> the format calls for captions or not.
>
> There is a bit of set up to get it working correctly and, once set up, it
> isn't too hard to maintain. Others may have a different approach and this
> one was a great tool when I was converting 6500 pages of text from
> WordPerfect to Frame AND the client decided midstream to change the
> alignment of their graphics from left aligned to centered. I was able to
> change the table format and everything was good...in just a few minutes.
>
> Here is what I do:
>
> Set up part 1: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphic
> I use separate tags for many things, including anchored tables and anchored
> graphics because it provides more control when converting to other formats,
> such as help. In Frame 7.x, the smallest font size is 2 points, so I use
> that to take up as little extra space as possible. Turning off the Fixed
> option means the row height will expand and shrink as needed to fit the
> graphic you insert. The reason for the "in column" in the tag name is
> because some graphics span the width of the sidehead area and some don't. I
> actually have another paragraph tag for those that span both areas.
>
> Create a specific paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphics (mine is
> called "AIC Anchored Images In Column")
> Set the font size to 2 points
> Set the line spacing to 2 points
> Turn off the Fixed option
> Save the tag with all the changes
>
> Set up part 2: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored table
>
> Create a specific paragraph tag to hold the anchored tables (mine is called
> "ATC Anchored Tables In Column")
> Set the font size to 2 points
> Set the line spacing to 2 points
> Turn off the Fixed option
> Save the tag with all the changes
>
> Set up part 3: Create a paragraph tag for your Table Caption
>
> Create a paragraph tag to format your Table Caption (mine is called FC
> Figure Caption)
> Save all changes
>
> Set up part 4: Create a table format to hold your graphics
> Officially, Frame 7 (I don't know about 8), doesn't store the column widths
> or paragraph tags in the Table Designer. However, it does remember
>
> Insert a blank table with 1 row and 1 column
> Apply the anchored graphics tag to the row (note: it will become darned near
> unreadable since it is a 2 point font...if you have problems seeing it, you
> can temporarily change the font size, then change it back)
> Set the Title Position for your caption
> Apply the figure caption tag for your figure caption
> Highlight the entire table
> Open the Table Designer
> Name the table format (mine is either Images In Column or Images Full Width,
> depending on what I'm using it for)
> Save the table format
>
> Use what you created
> Now that the component formats are created, here is what you do when you're
> ready to insert a figure/graphic. I always use a blank paragraph tag to
> anchor tables and graphics, so that is how these instructions are written.
> Tip; If you immediately import the file, you won't have to try to position
> your cursor in that tiny little space left by the 2 point paragraph tag.
>
> Position your cursor where the figure is to be inserted
> Add a blank paragraph
> Apply the anchored table tag (ATC Anchored Tables In Column in my example)
> Select Table > Insert table
> Select the table format you created to hold figures (Column or Images Full
> Width in my example)
> Click Insert
> Select File > Import > File
> Import your graphic
> Adjust dpi and other settings, if appropriate
> Resize the graphic, if needed
> Press esc m P to shrinkwrap the anchored frame around the graphic
> Add the figure title to the title row
>
> This is my processs...and hopefully it will help you a bit...
>
> Hugs
> Jerilynne
>
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Deirdre Reagan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all!
>>
>>
>
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Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Deirdre Reagan
Thank you Fred for explaining the "why."  And thank you to Jerilynne
for explaning how to turn tables into graphic capsules!

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Fred Ridder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Deirdre Reagan asked:
>
>> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
>> Figure captions?
>
> Tables are well-defined encapsulated objects, and one of the properties
> that is defined is an optional Title object. If you define a table format
> to include a Title object, every table that you assign that format to
> will have a title frame to contain your title string. But you can also
> define a table format that does not have a Title.
>
> Figures, on the other hand, are not uniquely defined objects. There are
> at least three different methods that are commonly used to insert a
> figure (an anchored frame in the text flow, an unanchored frame in a
> fixed location on a page, or in an anchored frame in a table cell), so
> there is no single place where a caption property could be defined to
> apply in all cases.
>
> But a potentially workable solution is to always encapsulate figures in
> a single-cell table, since tables *do* have a defined Title object. This
> does limit flexibility somewhat regarding horizontal positioning (tables
> have their own logic of how and when to span columns and sidehead
> areas), but also has a few small additional benefits, like making it
> very easy to globally or individually add/remove border rulings around
> figures, and providing facilities for encapsulating notes with the figure.
>
> -FR
>
> 
> It's easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through
> Windows Live™ Messenger. Learn How.
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Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Stuart Rogers
Jerilynne Knight wrote:
> Set up part 1: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphic
> I use separate tags for many things, including anchored tables and anchored
> graphics because it provides more control when converting to other formats,
> such as help. In Frame 7.x, the smallest font size is 2 points, so I use
> that to take up as little extra space as possible. ...
> 

Jerilynne,

Very thorough instructions!  But there's a way to avoid *any* extra 
space for the container pgf:  set its Space Below to a negative number, 
and set the Table's Space Above to the same negative number.  The table 
will overlap the containing pgf exactly, without even a 2-pt gap.

The negative number can be any value as long as its absolute value is 
larger than the font size of the containing pgf.

This method has the second advantage of leaving the containing pgf's 
pilcrow symbol visible (a 2-pt pilcrow is not).  You can set a font 
colour for the containing pgf as well, to make the pilcrow stand out 
even more -- very useful when the pgf is empty.

Best regards,

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

Lucy: Charlie Brown, life is like a deck chair on a cruise ship. 
Passengers open up these canvas deck chairs so they can sit in the sun. 
Some people place their chairs facing the rear of the ship so they can 
see where they've been. Other people face their chairs forward -- they 
want to see where they're going. On the cruise ship of life, which way 
is your deck chair facing?

Charlie Brown: "I've never been able to get one unfolded."

-- Charles Schulz
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RE: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Lester C. Smalley
I'd amend this caution with the items in the TOC MAY not be in the
expected order: if there are multiple items being extracted from the
same page, FM will grab everything applicable from the standard flow
first then anything in the tables next.

On Wednesday, June 11, 2008 10:46, Peter Gold wrote:

| One problem to be aware of when using single-cell tables with titles
| for graphics: If you specify paragraphs in the table-title area for
| generated TOCs, they will not be in the expected order because FM
| collects them from the page after it collects standard paragraphs.
| 
| HTH
| 
| Regards,
| 
| Peter
| __
| Peter Gold
| KnowHow ProServices

- Lester 
---
Lester C. Smalley  Email: lsmalley AT infocon DOT com   
Information Consultants, Inc.  Phone: 302-239-2942 FAX: 302-239-1712
Yorklyn, DE  19736   Web: www.infocon.com   
---

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Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Paul Findon
On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:46, Peter Gold wrote:

> One problem to be aware of when using single-cell tables with titles
> for graphics: If you specify paragraphs in the table-title area for
> generated TOCs, they will not be in the expected order because FM
> collects them from the page after it collects standard paragraphs.

I remember that little gotcha from years ago, but hasn't it been  
fixed? Just did a quick test with Mac FrameMaker 7.0 and it works OK.

One related gotcha, however, is that if you apply master pages to  
specific paragraph tags by using the UnstructMasterPageMaps on the  
reference pages, if those paras are in table cells, the master pages  
don't get applied.

May be that's been fixed in FM 8?

Paul
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RE: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Syed.Hosain
> -Original Message-
> I place my captions/titles above the image or table so that when the
> users click a link (to the caption) in the online help or PDFs, the
> image or table is still on the screen or page. If you link to captions
> that are below images, users have to scroll up to see the image. It's
a
> minor hassle, but one that is easily avoided.

Yes! I often do the same for this reason too. Some of my older documents
are the other way (on the bottom), so when I get a chance and time to do
the changes, I update them this way.

Z
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table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread syed.hos...@aeris.net
> -Original Message-
> I place my captions/titles above the image or table so that when the
> users click a link (to the caption) in the online help or PDFs, the
> image or table is still on the screen or page. If you link to captions
> that are below images, users have to scroll up to see the image. It's
a
> minor hassle, but one that is easily avoided.

Yes! I often do the same for this reason too. Some of my older documents
are the other way (on the bottom), so when I get a chance and time to do
the changes, I update them this way.

Z


RE: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Lief Erickson
I place my captions/titles above the image or table so that when the
users click a link (to the caption) in the online help or PDFs, the
image or table is still on the screen or page. If you link to captions
that are below images, users have to scroll up to see the image. It's a
minor hassle, but one that is easily avoided.

-Lief

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shmuel
Wolfson
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 9:54 AM
To: Shuttleworth, Roger
Cc: Frame Users
Subject: Re: table and figure captions

For figures, you can have a paragraph (style such as Figure style) with 
the next paragraph style defined as a Figure Caption style.
 

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson




Shuttleworth, Roger wrote:
> Hello Deirdre
>
> The presence of a table caption is determined by the table format as
shown in the Table Designer. You can set it to "No title" if you wish.
>
> Figure captions are just paragraphs that you may or may not want to
insert.
>
> If you are using structured FrameMaker, you can have a figure caption
inserted automatically every time you insert a figure.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Roger
>
> Roger Shuttleworth
> Technical Publications
> TVWorks Canada, Inc.
> 150 Dufferin Avenue
> London, Ontario
> N6A 5N6
> Canada
> Tel. 519 963-4368
> www.tvworks.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Deirdre
Reagan
> Sent: June 11, 2008 10:04 AM
> To: Frame Users
> Subject: table and figure captions
>
> Hi all!
>
> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
> Figure captions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Deirdre
> ___
>
>
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RE: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Lester C. Smalley
The issue I see is does the resulting structure still validate?

If you have control over the DTD/Schema, you can resolve that problem by
modifying the structural definition; if not you will have to do some
very fancy translation on export (or import), or leave figures as
non-table objects. 

On the whole, I very much like having figures in tables because of the
noted capabilities - automatic captioning, ability to trivially create a
ruling box, and placement flexibility except for in-line with other
text.

On Wednesday, June 11, 2008 10:32, Milan Davidovic wrote:
 
| On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Jerilynne Knight
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| wrote:
|
| > I create a table format specifically to hold graphics.
| 
| Is this in structured or unstructured Frame? If the latter, can anyone
| see a problem with doing it in the former?
| 
| --
| Milan Davidovic
| http://altmilan.blogspot.com

- Lester 
---
Lester C. Smalley  Email: lsmalley AT infocon DOT com   
Information Consultants, Inc.  Phone: 302-239-2942 FAX: 302-239-1712
Yorklyn, DE  19736   Web: www.infocon.com   
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Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Shmuel Wolfson
For figures, you can have a paragraph (style such as Figure style) with 
the next paragraph style defined as a Figure Caption style.
 

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson




Shuttleworth, Roger wrote:
> Hello Deirdre
>
> The presence of a table caption is determined by the table format as shown in 
> the Table Designer. You can set it to "No title" if you wish.
>
> Figure captions are just paragraphs that you may or may not want to insert.
>
> If you are using structured FrameMaker, you can have a figure caption 
> inserted automatically every time you insert a figure.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Roger
>
> Roger Shuttleworth
> Technical Publications
> TVWorks Canada, Inc.
> 150 Dufferin Avenue
> London, Ontario
> N6A 5N6
> Canada
> Tel. 519 963-4368
> www.tvworks.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Deirdre Reagan
> Sent: June 11, 2008 10:04 AM
> To: Frame Users
> Subject: table and figure captions
>
> Hi all!
>
> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
> Figure captions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Deirdre
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Peter Gold
One problem to be aware of when using single-cell tables with titles
for graphics: If you specify paragraphs in the table-title area for
generated TOCs, they will not be in the expected order because FM
collects them from the page after it collects standard paragraphs.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
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Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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RE: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Fred Ridder

Deirdre Reagan asked:
 
> Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
> Figure captions?
 
Tables are well-defined encapsulated objects, and one of the properties
that is defined is an optional Title object. If you define a table format
to include a Title object, every table that you assign that format to
will have a title frame to contain your title string. But you can also 
define a table format that does not have a Title.
 
Figures, on the other hand, are not uniquely defined objects. There are 
at least three different methods that are commonly used to insert a 
figure (an anchored frame in the text flow, an unanchored frame in a
fixed location on a page, or in an anchored frame in a table cell), so 
there is no single place where a caption property could be defined to 
apply in all cases. 
 
But a potentially workable solution is to always encapsulate figures in
a single-cell table, since tables *do* have a defined Title object. This
does limit flexibility somewhat regarding horizontal positioning (tables
have their own logic of how and when to span columns and sidehead
areas), but also has a few small additional benefits, like making it 
very easy to globally or individually add/remove border rulings around
figures, and providing facilities for encapsulating notes with the figure.
 
-FR
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Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Milan Davidovic
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Jerilynne Knight
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I create a table format specifically to hold graphics.

Is this in structured or unstructured Frame? If the latter, can anyone
see a problem with doing it in the former?

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
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RE: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Shuttleworth, Roger
Hello Deirdre

The presence of a table caption is determined by the table format as shown in 
the Table Designer. You can set it to "No title" if you wish.

Figure captions are just paragraphs that you may or may not want to insert.

If you are using structured FrameMaker, you can have a figure caption inserted 
automatically every time you insert a figure.

Hope this helps.

Roger

Roger Shuttleworth
Technical Publications
TVWorks Canada, Inc.
150 Dufferin Avenue
London, Ontario
N6A 5N6
Canada
Tel. 519 963-4368
www.tvworks.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Deirdre Reagan
Sent: June 11, 2008 10:04 AM
To: Frame Users
Subject: table and figure captions

Hi all!

Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?

Thanks!

Deirdre
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Re: table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Jerilynne Knight
Hi Deirdre

Welcome back from class! I don't know the why (other than anchored Frames
don't have that function). And the only way a table automatically creates a
caption is if the "Add Title" option is turned on for a table.

So, my workaround?

I create a table format specifically to hold graphics. I know, kinda sounds
like taking a shower with your shoes on. However, since I've used FrameMaker
since 1992, this seems to be the best solution I've found. I use it whether
the format calls for captions or not.

There is a bit of set up to get it working correctly and, once set up, it
isn't too hard to maintain. Others may have a different approach and this
one was a great tool when I was converting 6500 pages of text from
WordPerfect to Frame AND the client decided midstream to change the
alignment of their graphics from left aligned to centered. I was able to
change the table format and everything was good...in just a few minutes.

Here is what I do:

Set up part 1: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphic
I use separate tags for many things, including anchored tables and anchored
graphics because it provides more control when converting to other formats,
such as help. In Frame 7.x, the smallest font size is 2 points, so I use
that to take up as little extra space as possible. Turning off the Fixed
option means the row height will expand and shrink as needed to fit the
graphic you insert. The reason for the "in column" in the tag name is
because some graphics span the width of the sidehead area and some don't. I
actually have another paragraph tag for those that span both areas.

   1. Create a specific paragraph tag to hold the anchored graphics (mine is
   called "AIC Anchored Images In Column")
   2. Set the font size to 2 points
   3. Set the line spacing to 2 points
   4. Turn off the Fixed option
   5. Save the tag with all the changes

Set up part 2: Create a paragraph tag to hold the anchored table


   1. Create a specific paragraph tag to hold the anchored tables (mine is
   called "ATC Anchored Tables In Column")
   2. Set the font size to 2 points
   3. Set the line spacing to 2 points
   4. Turn off the Fixed option
   5. Save the tag with all the changes

Set up part 3: Create a paragraph tag for your Table Caption

   1. Create a paragraph tag to format your Table Caption (mine is called FC
   Figure Caption)
   2. Save all changes

Set up part 4: Create a table format to hold your graphics
Officially, Frame 7 (I don't know about 8), doesn't store the column widths
or paragraph tags in the Table Designer. However, it does remember

   1. Insert a blank table with 1 row and 1 column
   2. Apply the anchored graphics tag to the row (note: it will become
   darned near unreadable since it is a 2 point font...if you have problems
   seeing it, you can temporarily change the font size, then change it back)
   3. Set the Title Position for your caption
   4. Apply the figure caption tag for your figure caption
   5. Highlight the entire table
   6. Open the Table Designer
   7. Name the table format (mine is either Images In Column or Images Full
   Width, depending on what I'm using it for)
   8. Save the table format

Use what you created
Now that the component formats are created, here is what you do when you're
ready to insert a figure/graphic. I always use a blank paragraph tag to
anchor tables and graphics, so that is how these instructions are written.
Tip; If you immediately import the file, you won't have to try to position
your cursor in that tiny little space left by the 2 point paragraph tag.


   1. Position your cursor where the figure is to be inserted
   2. Add a blank paragraph
   3. Apply the anchored table tag (ATC Anchored Tables In Column in my
   example)
   4. Select Table > Insert table
   5. Select the table format you created to hold figures (Column or Images
   Full Width in my example)
   6. Click Insert
   7. Select File > Import > File
   8. Import your graphic
   9. Adjust dpi and other settings, if appropriate
   10. Resize the graphic, if needed
   11. Press esc m P to shrinkwrap the anchored frame around the graphic
   12. Add the figure title to the title row

This is my processs...and hopefully it will help you a bit...

Hugs
Jerilynne

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Deirdre Reagan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi all!
>
>
>
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table and figure captions

2008-06-11 Thread Deirdre Reagan
Hi all!

Does anyone know why FM automatically makes Table captions but not
Figure captions?

Thanks!

Deirdre
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