Re: [Freedos-user] re-porting Frotz to DOS
On Wed, 2011-12-07 at 14:33 -0800, David Griffith wrote: > An example of the latter is the 8086 > S100 CPU board offered by Andrew Lynch. IIRC, someone wrote a BIOS layer some time ago for the S100 so it could boot DOS! :) -- Tactical Nuclear Kittens -- Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model of a cloud services business. Read Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] re-porting Frotz to DOS
David Griffith wrote: > and new hardware with an old bent. An example of the latter is the 8086 > S100 CPU board offered by Andrew Lynch. More on this at: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/ S-100 8086 CPU board: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%208086%20CPU%20board S-100: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?24-S-100 Robert Riebisch -- +++ BTTR Software +++ Home page: http://www.bttr-software.de/ DOS ain't dead: http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/ -- Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model of a cloud services business. Read Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] re-porting Frotz to DOS
Hi, On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Rugxulo, > > I could have looked up Z machine - was just pressed for time this > morning. I try not to sound willfully ignorant. ;-0 I only barely know about it myself. And BTW, Gog.com still sells "Zork Anthology" (link redacted to avoid feeling like a spammer, though admittedly it's pretty cheap and DRM free). > (Which reminds me - I wanted to do a telnet server that used the Zork > "virtual machine as a proof of concept. Now I know where to go start > when I find the time. Zork on the internet via Telnet! Eliza would be > another good one.) Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup is still hosted on three telnet servers, which is good since they dropped the DOS port a few years ago. :-( But honestly it's kinda complex, a simpler roguelike (e.g. RogueClone) would be better. http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/howto http://rogueclone.sourceforge.net/ Note that I'm not actually telling you to host any of these, just giving you bits of trivia. But Rogue Clone is cool, and while not updated officially in a while (2004??), at least unofficially in 2008 their CVS was updated. It supports OpenWatcom (16-bit DOS) and DJGPP (32-bit DOS) targets and even MSVC Win32 also. > Borland Turbo C++ 3.0 is not freeware, but I don't think it is hard to > find. I have sold a few copies that I personally rescued from the trash > in the past year or two for a nominal amount. It runs well on a 386 or > 486 and is easy to use. Look for a copy on eBay, the Vintage Computer > Marketplace, etc. It can be used without the manuals by somebody > with a little experience. Good to know, but I'm not rushing out to get it for Christmas. ;-) > Open Watcom is open source and readily available but it is quite > overwhelming for a newbie. It took me a while to get over my fear of > it, and I had plenty of experience with TC++, gcc, IBM's xlC, etc. But > I'm happy I made the switch. The only blatant advantage there is cross-compilation (while foregoing the obvious 8086 host and target combo since it needs 386+ host). BTW, it's used by MIT/GNU Scheme for their Windows builds (surprisingly). > Jim Leonard is a Turbo Pascal bigot. I think he's stuck in the mid 80s. > :-) To be fair I think he uses it as a loader for his assembler code. Yeah, TP7 is old (though 1992, IIRC, heh, not "that" obsolete) and non-optimizing, but people love it. It works well (and fast, written in asm!). Good 16-bit compilers are harder to find these days. > Any reasonable compiler and development setup is probably best run > on a 386 or better machine, unless you are using something like > Turbo Pascal 3.0. TP 3.0 actually ran well on the oldest hardware, > and fit too. Admittedly, older machines aren't great for development due to long compile cycles. I'm no compiler expert (and never written one ... yet), but there are many factors involved that make this problematic. Well, and also modern developer apathy, why are people so RAM and optimization greedy??? (Makes me appreciate Forth and native asm all the more.) It's ridiculous how complicated and unportable most compilers are. > Most of the C compilers have just too big of a footprint. As much as I > like my PCjr and 5150/5160s, I still do most of my development work on a > Windows XP machine and I test in DOSBox or a virtual machine. I did > most of the mTCP development work on a 386-40, but my current setup > is far more productive. Admittedly, I'm not dragging out my 486 to develop on, esp. not with modern GCC (ugh). Even 2.95.3 was too slow there. My how things have changed (for the worse), GCC now wants like 300-450 MB for optimizations of a single file. Yuck. But I don't think most compilers are that bad. > (And all of this reminds me that I need to do a series of web pages or a > Wiki on getting started programming in DOS. It is a dying art ...) Be sure to link to various specs: http://ftp.lanet.lv/ftp/mirror/x2ftp/msdos/programming/specs/ -- Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model of a cloud services business. Read Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] re-porting Frotz to DOS
Rugxulo, I could have looked up Z machine - was just pressed for time this morning. I try not to sound willfully ignorant. ;-0 (Which reminds me - I wanted to do a telnet server that used the Zork "virtual machine as a proof of concept. Now I know where to go start when I find the time. Zork on the internet via Telnet! Eliza would be another good one.) Borland Turbo C++ 3.0 is not freeware, but I don't think it is hard to find. I have sold a few copies that I personally rescued from the trash in the past year or two for a nominal amount. It runs well on a 386 or 486 and is easy to use. Look for a copy on eBay, the Vintage Computer Marketplace, etc. It can be used without the manuals by somebody with a little experience. Open Watcom is open source and readily available but it is quite overwhelming for a newbie. It took me a while to get over my fear of it, and I had plenty of experience with TC++, gcc, IBM's xlC, etc. But I'm happy I made the switch. Jim Leonard is a Turbo Pascal bigot. I think he's stuck in the mid 80s. :-) To be fair I think he uses it as a loader for his assembler code. Any reasonable compiler and development setup is probably best run on a 386 or better machine, unless you are using something like Turbo Pascal 3.0. TP 3.0 actually ran well on the oldest hardware, and fit too. Most of the C compilers have just too big of a footprint. As much as I like my PCjr and 5150/5160s, I still do most of my development work on a Windows XP machine and I test in DOSBox or a virtual machine. I did most of the mTCP development work on a 386-40, but my current setup is far more productive. (And all of this reminds me that I need to do a series of web pages or a Wiki on getting started programming in DOS. It is a dying art ...) Mike -- Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model of a cloud services business. Read Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] re-porting Frotz to DOS
On Wed, 7 Dec 2011, Rugxulo wrote: Hi, On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: I can't comment on Frotz specifically - I don't know what it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-machine " The Z-machine is a virtual machine that was developed by Joel Berez and Marc Blank in 1979 and used by Infocom for its text adventure games. The "Z" of Z-machine stands for Zork, Infocom's first adventure game. Frotz was originally written in C by Stefan Jokisch in 1995 for DOS. By 2002, development stalled and the program was picked up by David Griffith. " (Heheh, he's famous!!) Well that answers that. ;-) Yep. That's me. However, if you are looking to target a 5150 or something similar Turbo C++ 3.0 for DOS and Open Watcom 1.9 are my current favorites. All of my mTCP work has been done with those two. Turbo C++ doesn't optimize code as well but it is functional and has a smaller runtime footprint. Open Watcom has a more full featured runtime, but it is larger. But TC++ 3.0 isn't freeware nor easily available, right?? Maybe you could check eBay, but it's probably wiser to just use (freeware-ish) TC++ 1.01 or (better) OpenWatcom or similar. (Pacific C? Desmet C? BCC/Dev86? Digital Mars? LSI C-86?) Again, it's not that TC 2.01 is so bad, but TC++ 1.01 is slightly better in a few ways (even ignoring the dopey C++ part, heh). And OpenWatcom should surpass it even, but that requires 386+ host (similar to DMC, though that is Win32-host only). But it's not for me to decide for you what compiler is best: use whatever works! I have a legit copy of TC++ 3.x-ish I bought in 1993. It appears that DOS Frotz was written with this compiler in mind. The upshot of this effort is to provide something new for those who like to play with old hardware and new hardware with an old bent. An example of the latter is the 8086 S100 CPU board offered by Andrew Lynch. -- David Griffith dgri...@cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?-- Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model of a cloud services business. Read Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] re-porting Frotz to DOS
Hi, On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> > I can't comment on Frotz specifically - I don't know what it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-machine " The Z-machine is a virtual machine that was developed by Joel Berez and Marc Blank in 1979 and used by Infocom for its text adventure games. The "Z" of Z-machine stands for Zork, Infocom's first adventure game. Frotz was originally written in C by Stefan Jokisch in 1995 for DOS. By 2002, development stalled and the program was picked up by David Griffith. " (Heheh, he's famous!!) Well that answers that. ;-) > However, if you are looking to target a 5150 or something similar Turbo > C++ 3.0 for DOS and Open Watcom 1.9 are my current favorites. > > All of my mTCP work has been done with those two. Turbo C++ doesn't > optimize code as well but it is functional and has a smaller runtime > footprint. Open Watcom has a more full featured runtime, but it is larger. But TC++ 3.0 isn't freeware nor easily available, right?? Maybe you could check eBay, but it's probably wiser to just use (freeware-ish) TC++ 1.01 or (better) OpenWatcom or similar. (Pacific C? Desmet C? BCC/Dev86? Digital Mars? LSI C-86?) Again, it's not that TC 2.01 is so bad, but TC++ 1.01 is slightly better in a few ways (even ignoring the dopey C++ part, heh). And OpenWatcom should surpass it even, but that requires 386+ host (similar to DMC, though that is Win32-host only). But it's not for me to decide for you what compiler is best: use whatever works! -- Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model of a cloud services business. Read Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] re-porting Frotz to DOS
Hi, On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 3:27 AM, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 7 Dec 2011, Rugxulo wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 1:30 AM, David Griffith >> wrote: >>> >>> Recently I've dusted off Frotz and am actively working on it now. One of >>> the things I'd like to do is incorporate the changes I've made to the >>> core >>> back to DOS Frotz. I want to make sure the result is usable on the IBM PC >>> 5150. I have a copy of Turbo C 2.01, which should be good enough. Does >>> anyone here have any other suggestions? >> >> Do you actually have an IBM 5150? Or is that just your generic target >> (aka, 8086)? > > I do have a 5150, but it'll take some time and room to get it into working > order. I mean, I've got no problem targeting 8086, I've done my own share (barely), but indeed 99% of people can't get their hands on a 5150 (including me), at least not easily, and not in good working order. It's much easier to use modern machines (as crappy as they may be for legacy stuff, sadly). > I think if I target the 8086 it should be fine. By the way, does > anyone here use FreeDOS on a 5150 with any regularity? There are some retro enthusiasts who use it, but they are a rare (genius) breed. And I'm not in frequent contact with any of them (Just FYI, I can't really forward or discuss anything with them, they don't need my help, heh. And I'm not sure any of them actively use FreeDOS, most seem to prefer IBM PC-DOS though M.C. uses DR-DOS, last I heard. Tsk tsk!) * Jason Knight (Paku Paku), TP7 + BASM http://www.deathshadow.com/ (EDIT: Oy, new version! Yakta!) * Mike Brutman (mTCP), OW19 http://www.brutman.com/mTCP/ (he's on this mailing list and already replied, no surprise) * Jim Leonard (Monotone), TP7 + BASM http://www.oldskool.org/pc * Mike Chambers (leetIRC), QB45 http://www.rubbermallet.org/ >> And keep in mind that I've only very rarely used Frotz, mostly for >> zedfunge / zbefunge, and I've not really used it for playing games, >> esp. not gfx ones. The one I ended up preferring was from circa 2000 >> (Jim Dunleavy? 2.40?), a port to DJGPP. So I would personally start >> there (esp. since older 16-bit version was only 2.32, IIRC). > > Jim Dunleavy actually hasn't been involved in the Frotz project since 2.40 > came out. It was mostly me since then. There were a lot of changes to the > Frotz core between 2.32 and 2.40. I think you were noticing those changes. I was actually kinda disappointed that the 16-bit compile was only 2.32. At least the DJGPP build seemed fairly robust. Though I forget if one or both had some issues with GZIP'd .z5 files or such. >> P.S. IIRC, usosutki (sp?), aka Steve Nickolas, was involved in a port >> at some point. He was active on this mailing list a few months ago, so >> perhaps he'll respond with better info. > > I can't seem to find any reference to him doing anything with Frotz. He must've ported or updated something like jZIP or DZIP, I dunno, I forget. Well, if he pops his head up (again) one day soon, we can ask him. Or email him directly if desperate. ;-) -- Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model of a cloud services business. Read Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] re-porting Frotz to DOS
On 12/7/2011 1:30 AM, David Griffith wrote: > Recently I've dusted off Frotz and am actively working on it now. One of > the things I'd like to do is incorporate the changes I've made to the core > back to DOS Frotz. In particular I want to allow DOS Frotz to open blorb > files and get sound and V6 graphics resources from there instead of > seperate files. I want to make sure the result is usable on the IBM PC > 5150. I have a copy of Turbo C 2.01, which should be good enough. Does > anyone here have any other suggestions? > I can't comment on Frotz specifically - I don't know what it is. However, if you are looking to target a 5150 or something similar Turbo C++ 3.0 for DOS and Open Watcom 1.9 are my current favorites. All of my mTCP work has been done with those two. Turbo C++ doesn't optimize code as well but it is functional and has a smaller runtime footprint. Open Watcom has a more full featured runtime, but it is larger. Mike -- Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model of a cloud services business. Read Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] re-porting Frotz to DOS
On Wed, 7 Dec 2011, Rugxulo wrote: Hi, On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 1:30 AM, David Griffith wrote: Recently I've dusted off Frotz and am actively working on it now. One of the things I'd like to do is incorporate the changes I've made to the core back to DOS Frotz. In particular I want to allow DOS Frotz to open blorb files and get sound and V6 graphics resources from there instead of seperate files. I want to make sure the result is usable on the IBM PC 5150. I have a copy of Turbo C 2.01, which should be good enough. Does anyone here have any other suggestions? Do you actually have an IBM 5150? I'm not saying targeting that is a bad goal, but indeed it's hard to target something you don't have in real life in actual hardware. Or is that just your generic target (aka, 8086)? I do have a 5150, but it'll take some time and room to get it into working order. I think if I target the 8086 it should be fine. By the way, does anyone here use FreeDOS on a 5150 with any regularity? I think TC201 is too old to be useful (some bugs, lacks). At the very least, I'd recommend TC++101 or (even better) OpenWatcom. There are others too, of course. And keep in mind that I've only very rarely used Frotz, mostly for zedfunge / zbefunge, and I've not really used it for playing games, esp. not gfx ones. The one I ended up preferring was from circa 2000 (Jim Dunleavy? 2.40?), a port to DJGPP. So I would personally start there (esp. since older 16-bit version was only 2.32, IIRC). http://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archiveXinfocomXinterpretersXfrotz.html Jim Dunleavy actually hasn't been involved in the Frotz project since 2.40 came out. It was mostly me since then. There were a lot of changes to the Frotz core between 2.32 and 2.40. I think you were noticing those changes. P.S. IIRC, usosutki (sp?), aka Steve Nickolas, was involved in a port at some point. He was active on this mailing list a few months ago, so perhaps he'll respond with better info. I can't seem to find any reference to him doing anything with Frotz. -- David Griffith dgri...@cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?-- Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model of a cloud services business. Read Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] re-porting Frotz to DOS
Hi, On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 1:30 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Recently I've dusted off Frotz and am actively working on it now. One of > the things I'd like to do is incorporate the changes I've made to the core > back to DOS Frotz. In particular I want to allow DOS Frotz to open blorb > files and get sound and V6 graphics resources from there instead of > seperate files. I want to make sure the result is usable on the IBM PC > 5150. I have a copy of Turbo C 2.01, which should be good enough. Does > anyone here have any other suggestions? Do you actually have an IBM 5150? I'm not saying targeting that is a bad goal, but indeed it's hard to target something you don't have in real life in actual hardware. Or is that just your generic target (aka, 8086)? I think TC201 is too old to be useful (some bugs, lacks). At the very least, I'd recommend TC++101 or (even better) OpenWatcom. There are others too, of course. And keep in mind that I've only very rarely used Frotz, mostly for zedfunge / zbefunge, and I've not really used it for playing games, esp. not gfx ones. The one I ended up preferring was from circa 2000 (Jim Dunleavy? 2.40?), a port to DJGPP. So I would personally start there (esp. since older 16-bit version was only 2.32, IIRC). http://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archiveXinfocomXinterpretersXfrotz.html P.S. IIRC, usosutki (sp?), aka Steve Nickolas, was involved in a port at some point. He was active on this mailing list a few months ago, so perhaps he'll respond with better info. -- Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model of a cloud services business. Read Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] re-porting Frotz to DOS
Recently I've dusted off Frotz and am actively working on it now. One of the things I'd like to do is incorporate the changes I've made to the core back to DOS Frotz. In particular I want to allow DOS Frotz to open blorb files and get sound and V6 graphics resources from there instead of seperate files. I want to make sure the result is usable on the IBM PC 5150. I have a copy of Turbo C 2.01, which should be good enough. Does anyone here have any other suggestions? -- David Griffith dgri...@cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? -- Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model of a cloud services business. Read Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
