Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
yeah, ... but wouldn't it be cool to have one .. and to have it accessible lol. dreams, i know. but good ones! dallas On 12/23/2011 5:20, Trouble wrote: You can disagree with the sim flying all you want. However, the facts are that air force and navy pilots have more sim time than actual flight time. They want them to know the controls before they give them a million dollar aircraft. That is also why most military pilots can fly anything, because of that sim training. True, the sims we can use is basic. But, Who has the room for a full force sim capsule? At 12:41 PM 12/22/2011, you wrote: My comments interleaved with yours: -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Trouble Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:47 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project You got some of the principles, but way off on others. The ailerons on the ends of the wings are what lets the plane turn left or right. You get this motion by moving the yoke left or right. By pushing forward or pulling back on the yoke causes the Elevators on the tail wings to raise or lower the planes level of flight. By giving the plane more or less power. Gives more or less wind on the wings surface to assist in these movements. Speed only makes you go faster or slower. Depending on wait of plane determines how much speed it takes to keep it in the air. Not all planes have rudders, and those that do move along with the ailerons. Um Trouble, I have hours logged in an actual cockpit, have helped rebuild aircraft and have an aeronautical engineer/pilot for a stepfather. Trust me, when you increase power, you climb, unless you trim the aircraft to prevent it, just as when you decrease power, you descend, unless you trim the aircraft or deploy flaps to increase the wing surface area. here are some very basic aerodynamics. Lift is proportional to wing area and increases with angle of attack. it also increases with increasing velocity of airflow over the wing, (possibly with the square of that velocity, I don't remember for sure.) Increase engine power in level flight, increase aircraft speed. increase aircraft speed, increase speed of air over the wing surface, thus increasing lift. The ailerons increase the angle of attack for their wing. Move the stick left, increase the AoA on the right wing, producing more lift. This rolls the aircraft left, and does produce a small turning moment as well. But if you want to turn sharply, you quarter roll the aircraft and pull up on the stick. This pulls the aircraft through your turn more quickly than any rudder-and-aileron alone turn can. You can also roll and push the stick forward for a negative-gee maneuver, but aircraft will typically turn more tightly in a positive-gee regime. There are aircraft where the rudder and ailerons are automatically coordinated, but given the need to cross-control (to perform a side-slip for instance, I'm guessing there are overrides even for the most modern, fly-by-wire jets. Obviously, I haven't flown an F16, though I have spoken to people who have. Anyone that has flown and had time at the stick would of ben told this info after all its basic flying. You want hard flying try a helicopter. I have flown just about all types of RC models from airplanes to hover craft. Now working on helicopters indoor type and out. Ben playing with these big boy toys for past 30 years and most of it being blind. I have never flown a helicopter, but based on what I've been told and read, I'd agree that it's probably much harder than fixed-wing aircraft. As for the rest of this paragraph, I'm trying to see how you aren't accusing me of lying, because that would be rude and disrespectful. I have flown various Sesna aircraft, as well as a Fairchild PT23, which is an open-cockpit WWII era primary trainer with aerobatic capabilities. I have survived and walked away from a plane crash. (Piper cub got flipped over by a freak crosswind gust on landing, everyone but the plane was ok.) I don't know what feedback you get flying an RC aircraft, not knowing your vision level, but in order to comment disagree with my statements based on your experience, you're going to have to convince me that you are in full knowledge of exactly what your aircraft is doing at every moment in response to your control commands. You are also going to have to convince me that, having actual sensory feedback in a cockpit, I don't know what I'm talking about. Good luck with that. So with It's your plane and zero sight sims. You do get a good idea of flying by sim. I must respectfully but completely disagree. Christopher Bartlett At 10:21 AM 12/22/2011, you wrote: OK, small dissertation to follow. Flying an aircraft is not at all like driving a car or a boat. The biggest difference is that many of your controls do
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
Guys you should really read the official website from time to time. From the official Zero Sight page: if you have the demo and want to try the new version, just uninstall your demo and download it again: the new demo file is yet at version 1.01 2011/12/22 william lomas will.d.lo...@gmail.com i think it applies to the demo, to On Dec 22, 2011, at 7:29 PM, Charles Rivard wrote: If the patch is only for the full version, what about those of us who want to try the demo, with the changes having been made, to determine whether or not we want to buy? I do want the heading of 0 degrees to be north, rather than 90 degrees being north. I would not buy a game based on a buggy demo. Thanks. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Shard Workshop shardworks...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project Hi Thomas, if you are still interested, with patch 1.01 we have introduced the possibility of changing the default (Cartesian) heading with the Clock heading, with 0 degrees to the North, just by pressing A in the main menu. Just redownload the patch to try it out in case you want. http://www.shardworkshop.com/zero-sight 2011/12/22 Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Hi Chris, I agree. I tried the Zero Sight demo myself and it doesn't really grab my attention the way Lone Wolf does. Yeah, Lone Wolf doesn't necessarily stick to true physics either, but as you pointed out the experience does feel more realistic as a simulation than Zero Sight when we come down to a one on one comparison between the two. I honestly think Lone Wolf sets a president for any kind of combat simulation because it offers several starter missions, the ability to create custom missions, and the user interface is fairly straight forward. The keyboard commands are easy to remember because they make sense. A for area, f for fuel, d for depth, s for speed, etc are logical assignments. With Zero Sight I felt as though some keyboard assignments didn't make sense, and having 0 oriented to east instead of north just made the game too confusing for me.I'm willing to keep an an open mind about the game, but unless some of the things I don't particularly like get changed in the future I probably won't buy Zero Sight. I guess it doesn't really live up to my expectations for a flight simulator. Cheers! On 12/22/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think so, though others may disagree. While Zero Sight seems to provide an in-depth flying experience, I was actually quite disappointed in the modeling of how one actually flies an aircraft. I understand that those physics are difficult to make playable, so don't hold it against the developer, but it was sufficient to have me uninstalling the current demo. Lone Wolf's sub controls aren't exhaustively realistic, but they come much closer to providing the flavor of managing a submarine than do the flight controls and avionics of Zero Sight. I'm not saying don't enjoy the game if you do, but no, it's not yet in the class of Lone Wolf for this gamer. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
Yep, but one line below it says that if you have the demo you just have to download and reinstall it to have the changes. 2011/12/22 Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com It's a bit confusing, because it says, on the web page, that the patch is for the full version. Yet, I think, the developer said, to this list, that the changes were made to the patch, no mention of the demo. I went ahead and redownloaded the demo again, just in case. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: william lomas will.d.lo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project i think it applies to the demo, to On Dec 22, 2011, at 7:29 PM, Charles Rivard wrote: If the patch is only for the full version, what about those of us who want to try the demo, with the changes having been made, to determine whether or not we want to buy? I do want the heading of 0 degrees to be north, rather than 90 degrees being north. I would not buy a game based on a buggy demo. Thanks. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Shard Workshop shardworks...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project Hi Thomas, if you are still interested, with patch 1.01 we have introduced the possibility of changing the default (Cartesian) heading with the Clock heading, with 0 degrees to the North, just by pressing A in the main menu. Just redownload the patch to try it out in case you want. http://www.shardworkshop.com/**zero-sighthttp://www.shardworkshop.com/zero-sight 2011/12/22 Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Hi Chris, I agree. I tried the Zero Sight demo myself and it doesn't really grab my attention the way Lone Wolf does. Yeah, Lone Wolf doesn't necessarily stick to true physics either, but as you pointed out the experience does feel more realistic as a simulation than Zero Sight when we come down to a one on one comparison between the two. I honestly think Lone Wolf sets a president for any kind of combat simulation because it offers several starter missions, the ability to create custom missions, and the user interface is fairly straight forward. The keyboard commands are easy to remember because they make sense. A for area, f for fuel, d for depth, s for speed, etc are logical assignments. With Zero Sight I felt as though some keyboard assignments didn't make sense, and having 0 oriented to east instead of north just made the game too confusing for me.I'm willing to keep an an open mind about the game, but unless some of the things I don't particularly like get changed in the future I probably won't buy Zero Sight. I guess it doesn't really live up to my expectations for a flight simulator. Cheers! On 12/22/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think so, though others may disagree. While Zero Sight seemsto provide an in-depth flying experience, I was actually quite disappointed in the modeling of how one actually flies an aircraft. I understand that those physics are difficult to make playable, so don't hold it against the developer, but it was sufficient to have me uninstalling the current demo. Lone Wolf's sub controls aren't exhaustively realistic, but they come much closer to providing the flavor of managing a submarine than do the flight controls and avionics of Zero Sight. I'm not saying don't enjoy the game if you do, but no, it's not yet in the class of Lone Wolf for this gamer. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe@audyssey.**org gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/**mailman/listinfo/gamers_**audyssey.orghttp://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org . All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/**gamers@audyssey.orghttp://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org . If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe@audyssey.**org gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/**mailman/listinfo/gamers_**audyssey.orghttp://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org . All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/**gamers@audyssey.orghttp://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org
[Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
I recall that some time ago, there was a discussion on Lone Wolf. Some people were thinking, Wouldn't it be cool if we had a game sort of like Lone Wolf, but we were flying a plane? In regards to the game from the Shard Workshop, in a sense, do we now have such an animal? --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
I don't think so, though others may disagree. While Zero Sight seems to provide an in-depth flying experience, I was actually quite disappointed in the modeling of how one actually flies an aircraft. I understand that those physics are difficult to make playable, so don't hold it against the developer, but it was sufficient to have me uninstalling the current demo. Lone Wolf's sub controls aren't exhaustively realistic, but they come much closer to providing the flavor of managing a submarine than do the flight controls and avionics of Zero Sight. I'm not saying don't enjoy the game if you do, but no, it's not yet in the class of Lone Wolf for this gamer. Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 7:09 AM To: audyssey gamers list Subject: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project I recall that some time ago, there was a discussion on Lone Wolf. Some people were thinking, Wouldn't it be cool if we had a game sort of like Lone Wolf, but we were flying a plane? In regards to the game from the Shard Workshop, in a sense, do we now have such an animal? --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
Hi, personally I've played Lone Wolf and Zero Sight, and I believe that the second is better. I haven't ever tryed the sensation of taking down an aircraft while thinking to another, giving orders to the squad member while shutting to a veicle ecc. Zero Sight recuires more concentration, but reserves more fun. Why have you uninstalled the demo? why this is not so realistic for you? I've played also flight simulators with sighted people, and it seems very similar to me to these. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
OK, small dissertation to follow. Flying an aircraft is not at all like driving a car or a boat. The biggest difference is that many of your controls do not directly affect your position and orientation in three-space, but instead affect the rate of change of that orientation. As a somewhat simplified example: moving the stick to the left initiates a bank to the left, that is, the aircraft rolls along its long axis. The excursion from the zero-point of the stick controls how rapidly your roll angle changes, rather than setting your absolute roll. Move the stick only a little, and your roll rate is slow, but you do continue rolling. The same sort of rate control works for the elevator (stick forward and back), with the addition that gravity is still in effect, so that if you unload that is remove all lift from the aircraft, you will eventually describe a parabolic arc downwards (friction effects ignored.) These two effects are combined in actual flying, especially high-performance flying, so that turning is usually accomplished by rolling the aircraft, then pulling back on the stick for a turn that occupies less horizontal space. Much dogfighting was done in the vertical, where rolling equates to turning. Typically you had more control authority for pitch then roll and finally yaw, so you would use your pitch controls to aid in turning. Now add engine power into the mix. Goosing the throttle has more effects than just increasing your speed. Zero Sight has it right that you accelerate or decelerate when you change throttle settings, but given that lift is, among other things, a function of speed, if you are in level flight and goose the throttle without making any other control changes, you will climb. Chop the power and you descend. Now finally add in that when you bank, you tend to turn, and when you apply rudder, it has an effect on bank angle, and both affect your pitch angle, and you begin to see how complex flying even a WWII aircraft was. Dark is right that it was possible to turn someone who had never flown into a combat pilot in relatively short order, though in the U.S. the training time was more like six months and was every day, hours a day. Now, we look at modern combat flying. In addition to performing all the above tasks, you have a complex cockpit layout that requires memorization. You have radar to monitor in any of several possible modes. You have weapons packages, both air-to-air and air-to-ground that each have their separate control characteristics. It isn't like in the movies, just point and shoot, you have to select targets, select weapon system for each target, know your weapon's envelope of effectiveness and deploy it correctly. Now to Dark's point, Lone Wolf does not cover every complexity of conning a submarine in the WWII era, but it gives you enough to do that in the midst of a furious combat sequence, firing on one target say, while evading three incoming destroyers, you have plenty to do. Also, it enforces the sorts of snap decision-making that a sub commander would have to do. Ok, my targeting solution is coming into effect, but I have two destroyers bearing down on me. Do I wait and take the shot? If so, do I then turn and snap off a shot at a destroyer, or do I crash dive and hope to live through the bombardment? From what I've seen, Zero sight gets some of the feel of the switchology right for modern aircraft, but the flight model is simplified to the point where it doesn't impose a burden at all on the pilot. The amazing thing about modern fighter or attack pilots is that if need be, they can do all this switching while yanking and banking at several gees. Now, it's probably unrealistic of me to expect anyone to create a detailed flight model, though I have some excel models that do a pretty good job, at least for WWII era aircraft. There are a vanishingly small number of blind people who've actually flown an aircraft, I am one, so the experience isn't missed by most gamers. I'm unable to comment on other flight sims, as I haven't tried one since the DOS days, but it's my impression that there are simulators out there, available to the commercial gamer, that do model flight more realistically. So in conclusion, I recognize that my requirements are unreasonable for most people. Do not take my negative view as representative, and I do recommend anyone try it. But do not believe that you are doing anything like flying. And that's ok, I'm the radical simulationist on this forum and I recognize that. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
Hi Chris. Well Zero site might be missing the friction physics and some of the more complex controls, but actually the angle as you describe is already in the game, it just involves setting angles with arrow keys. As It says in the manual, Zero site isn't intended as a perfect simulation of every realistic aspect of flying a plane, just to give a general experience and a fun game in the process, which it does. if your less keen on that, fair enough. Btw, my two months figure was just a number pulled out of the air. Everything I know about training of volunteer pilots in wwii is based on rohald Dahl's auto biography, and he doesn't give a figure on his time, rather concentrating on how hard the training was and hwat it involved. I must confess, while I'd say know a litle about military weapons, training and tactics up to the first world war, more modern military history is not really my subject and beyond what I've picked up from a variety of books set around that time or concerning other matters such as the Shoa (holocaust), I don't know too much. Beware the grue! Dark. - --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
What I was getting at in my original post are the similarities between the two games. You have radar to find the enemy. You have weapons to destroy the enemy. You must complete given missions. You are navigating left and right, up and down, forward and back. One game is in water while the other is in the air, but it's the same idea. Of course, the sounds are different. The idea of both games are similar. I wasn't thinking of the mechanics or logistics of navigating your vehicle through the games.targets --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project OK, small dissertation to follow. Flying an aircraft is not at all like driving a car or a boat. The biggest difference is that many of your controls do not directly affect your position and orientation in three-space, but instead affect the rate of change of that orientation. As a somewhat simplified example: moving the stick to the left initiates a bank to the left, that is, the aircraft rolls along its long axis. The excursion from the zero-point of the stick controls how rapidly your roll angle changes, rather than setting your absolute roll. Move the stick only a little, and your roll rate is slow, but you do continue rolling. The same sort of rate control works for the elevator (stick forward and back), with the addition that gravity is still in effect, so that if you unload that is remove all lift from the aircraft, you will eventually describe a parabolic arc downwards (friction effects ignored.) These two effects are combined in actual flying, especially high-performance flying, so that turning is usually accomplished by rolling the aircraft, then pulling back on the stick for a turn that occupies less horizontal space. Much dogfighting was done in the vertical, where rolling equates to turning. Typically you had more control authority for pitch then roll and finally yaw, so you would use your pitch controls to aid in turning. Now add engine power into the mix. Goosing the throttle has more effects than just increasing your speed. Zero Sight has it right that you accelerate or decelerate when you change throttle settings, but given that lift is, among other things, a function of speed, if you are in level flight and goose the throttle without making any other control changes, you will climb. Chop the power and you descend. Now finally add in that when you bank, you tend to turn, and when you apply rudder, it has an effect on bank angle, and both affect your pitch angle, and you begin to see how complex flying even a WWII aircraft was. Dark is right that it was possible to turn someone who had never flown into a combat pilot in relatively short order, though in the U.S. the training time was more like six months and was every day, hours a day. Now, we look at modern combat flying. In addition to performing all the above tasks, you have a complex cockpit layout that requires memorization. You have radar to monitor in any of several possible modes. You have weapons packages, both air-to-air and air-to-ground that each have their separate control characteristics. It isn't like in the movies, just point and shoot, you have to select targets, select weapon system for each target, know your weapon's envelope of effectiveness and deploy it correctly. Now to Dark's point, Lone Wolf does not cover every complexity of conning a submarine in the WWII era, but it gives you enough to do that in the midst of a furious combat sequence, firing on one target say, while evading three incoming destroyers, you have plenty to do. Also, it enforces the sorts of snap decision-making that a sub commander would have to do. Ok, my targeting solution is coming into effect, but I have two destroyers bearing down on me. Do I wait and take the shot? If so, do I then turn and snap off a shot at a destroyer, or do I crash dive and hope to live through the bombardment? From what I've seen, Zero sight gets some of the feel of the switchology right for modern aircraft, but the flight model is simplified to the point where it doesn't impose a burden at all on the pilot. The amazing thing about modern fighter or attack pilots is that if need be, they can do all this switching while yanking and banking at several gees. Now, it's probably unrealistic of me to expect anyone to create a detailed flight model, though I have some excel models that do a pretty good job, at least for WWII era aircraft. There are a vanishingly small number of blind people who've actually flown an aircraft, I am one, so the experience isn't missed by most gamers. I'm unable to comment on other flight sims, as I haven't tried one since the DOS days, but it's my impression
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
You got some of the principles, but way off on others. The ailerons on the ends of the wings are what lets the plane turn left or right. You get this motion by moving the yoke left or right. By pushing forward or pulling back on the yoke causes the Elevators on the tail wings to raise or lower the planes level of flight. By giving the plane more or less power. Gives more or less wind on the wings surface to assist in these movements. Speed only makes you go faster or slower. Depending on wait of plane determines how much speed it takes to keep it in the air. Not all planes have rudders, and those that do move along with the ailerons. Anyone that has flown and had time at the stick would of ben told this info after all its basic flying. You want hard flying try a helicopter. i have flown just about all types of RC models from airplanes to hover craft. Now working on helicopters indoor type and out. Ben playing with these big boy toys for past 30 years and most of it being blind. So with It's your plane and zero sight sims. You do get a good idea of flying by sim. At 10:21 AM 12/22/2011, you wrote: OK, small dissertation to follow. Flying an aircraft is not at all like driving a car or a boat. The biggest difference is that many of your controls do not directly affect your position and orientation in three-space, but instead affect the rate of change of that orientation. As a somewhat simplified example: moving the stick to the left initiates a bank to the left, that is, the aircraft rolls along its long axis. The excursion from the zero-point of the stick controls how rapidly your roll angle changes, rather than setting your absolute roll. Move the stick only a little, and your roll rate is slow, but you do continue rolling. The same sort of rate control works for the elevator (stick forward and back), with the addition that gravity is still in effect, so that if you unload that is remove all lift from the aircraft, you will eventually describe a parabolic arc downwards (friction effects ignored.) These two effects are combined in actual flying, especially high-performance flying, so that turning is usually accomplished by rolling the aircraft, then pulling back on the stick for a turn that occupies less horizontal space. Much dogfighting was done in the vertical, where rolling equates to turning. Typically you had more control authority for pitch then roll and finally yaw, so you would use your pitch controls to aid in turning. Now add engine power into the mix. Goosing the throttle has more effects than just increasing your speed. Zero Sight has it right that you accelerate or decelerate when you change throttle settings, but given that lift is, among other things, a function of speed, if you are in level flight and goose the throttle without making any other control changes, you will climb. Chop the power and you descend. Now finally add in that when you bank, you tend to turn, and when you apply rudder, it has an effect on bank angle, and both affect your pitch angle, and you begin to see how complex flying even a WWII aircraft was. Dark is right that it was possible to turn someone who had never flown into a combat pilot in relatively short order, though in the U.S. the training time was more like six months and was every day, hours a day. Now, we look at modern combat flying. In addition to performing all the above tasks, you have a complex cockpit layout that requires memorization. You have radar to monitor in any of several possible modes. You have weapons packages, both air-to-air and air-to-ground that each have their separate control characteristics. It isn't like in the movies, just point and shoot, you have to select targets, select weapon system for each target, know your weapon's envelope of effectiveness and deploy it correctly. Now to Dark's point, Lone Wolf does not cover every complexity of conning a submarine in the WWII era, but it gives you enough to do that in the midst of a furious combat sequence, firing on one target say, while evading three incoming destroyers, you have plenty to do. Also, it enforces the sorts of snap decision-making that a sub commander would have to do. Ok, my targeting solution is coming into effect, but I have two destroyers bearing down on me. Do I wait and take the shot? If so, do I then turn and snap off a shot at a destroyer, or do I crash dive and hope to live through the bombardment? From what I've seen, Zero sight gets some of the feel of the switchology right for modern aircraft, but the flight model is simplified to the point where it doesn't impose a burden at all on the pilot. The amazing thing about modern fighter or attack pilots is that if need be, they can do all this switching while yanking and banking at several gees. Now, it's probably unrealistic of me to expect anyone to create a detailed flight model, though I have some excel models that do a pretty good job, at least for WWII era aircraft.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
About Zero sight: I've checked the site, and the dev has released the 1.01 patch that solves bugs and adds the clock orientation system. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
Hi Chris, I agree. I tried the Zero Sight demo myself and it doesn't really grab my attention the way Lone Wolf does. Yeah, Lone Wolf doesn't necessarily stick to true physics either, but as you pointed out the experience does feel more realistic as a simulation than Zero Sight when we come down to a one on one comparison between the two. I honestly think Lone Wolf sets a president for any kind of combat simulation because it offers several starter missions, the ability to create custom missions, and the user interface is fairly straight forward. The keyboard commands are easy to remember because they make sense. A for area, f for fuel, d for depth, s for speed, etc are logical assignments. With Zero Sight I felt as though some keyboard assignments didn't make sense, and having 0 oriented to east instead of north just made the game too confusing for me.I'm willing to keep an an open mind about the game, but unless some of the things I don't particularly like get changed in the future I probably won't buy Zero Sight. I guess it doesn't really live up to my expectations for a flight simulator. Cheers! On 12/22/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think so, though others may disagree. While Zero Sight seems to provide an in-depth flying experience, I was actually quite disappointed in the modeling of how one actually flies an aircraft. I understand that those physics are difficult to make playable, so don't hold it against the developer, but it was sufficient to have me uninstalling the current demo. Lone Wolf's sub controls aren't exhaustively realistic, but they come much closer to providing the flavor of managing a submarine than do the flight controls and avionics of Zero Sight. I'm not saying don't enjoy the game if you do, but no, it's not yet in the class of Lone Wolf for this gamer. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
Fair enough in turn Dark. It is true that toward the end of the war, both Germany and Japan were trying to force pilots through their training program faster and faster. In the case of the Japanese, it didn't require as much skill to be a kamikaze pilot, just enough to get the aircraft over a target and dive it in. Allied pilots remarked the drastic loss in pilot quality for later-trained German pilots. If I recall correctly, the Germans were experimenting with the use of electric shock as part of their training regime towards the end. And as I've said, my tastes in this matter are quite extreme, and I recognize that. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
Ok, with those qualifications, I can agree that this game approaches Lone Wolf, or for that matter, GMA Tank Commander. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:32 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project What I was getting at in my original post are the similarities between the two games. You have radar to find the enemy. You have weapons to destroy the enemy. You must complete given missions. You are navigating left and right, up and down, forward and back. One game is in water while the other is in the air, but it's the same idea. Of course, the sounds are different. The idea of both games are similar. I wasn't thinking of the mechanics or logistics of navigating your vehicle through the games.targets Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
yeah, but then, give it time. i mean, come on. its only had what, a few months at most, of coding? and as we give feedback, it can be updated, and will become better. its only a new game, most games that come out for the first time need some work done, when only a short time has been spent on building them. also, don't compare them. they are two totally seperate kinds of games. i personally have found this to be quite realistic in most regards. yes, there are some things that aren't quite right. but, its a game. dallas On 23/12/2011 03:24, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Chris, I agree. I tried the Zero Sight demo myself and it doesn't really grab my attention the way Lone Wolf does. Yeah, Lone Wolf doesn't necessarily stick to true physics either, but as you pointed out the experience does feel more realistic as a simulation than Zero Sight when we come down to a one on one comparison between the two. I honestly think Lone Wolf sets a president for any kind of combat simulation because it offers several starter missions, the ability to create custom missions, and the user interface is fairly straight forward. The keyboard commands are easy to remember because they make sense. A for area, f for fuel, d for depth, s for speed, etc are logical assignments. With Zero Sight I felt as though some keyboard assignments didn't make sense, and having 0 oriented to east instead of north just made the game too confusing for me.I'm willing to keep an an open mind about the game, but unless some of the things I don't particularly like get changed in the future I probably won't buy Zero Sight. I guess it doesn't really live up to my expectations for a flight simulator. Cheers! On 12/22/11, Christopher Bartlettthemusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think so, though others may disagree. While Zero Sight seems to provide an in-depth flying experience, I was actually quite disappointed in the modeling of how one actually flies an aircraft. I understand that those physics are difficult to make playable, so don't hold it against the developer, but it was sufficient to have me uninstalling the current demo. Lone Wolf's sub controls aren't exhaustively realistic, but they come much closer to providing the flavor of managing a submarine than do the flight controls and avionics of Zero Sight. I'm not saying don't enjoy the game if you do, but no, it's not yet in the class of Lone Wolf for this gamer. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
does lone wolf have system access support? played it years ago i may buy it you know but haven't played that game in a few years has it had updates in the last few years? tried it when first released On Dec 22, 2011, at 6:27 PM, Dallas O'Brien wrote: yeah, but then, give it time. i mean, come on. its only had what, a few months at most, of coding? and as we give feedback, it can be updated, and will become better. its only a new game, most games that come out for the first time need some work done, when only a short time has been spent on building them. also, don't compare them. they are two totally seperate kinds of games. i personally have found this to be quite realistic in most regards. yes, there are some things that aren't quite right. but, its a game. dallas On 23/12/2011 03:24, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Chris, I agree. I tried the Zero Sight demo myself and it doesn't really grab my attention the way Lone Wolf does. Yeah, Lone Wolf doesn't necessarily stick to true physics either, but as you pointed out the experience does feel more realistic as a simulation than Zero Sight when we come down to a one on one comparison between the two. I honestly think Lone Wolf sets a president for any kind of combat simulation because it offers several starter missions, the ability to create custom missions, and the user interface is fairly straight forward. The keyboard commands are easy to remember because they make sense. A for area, f for fuel, d for depth, s for speed, etc are logical assignments. With Zero Sight I felt as though some keyboard assignments didn't make sense, and having 0 oriented to east instead of north just made the game too confusing for me.I'm willing to keep an an open mind about the game, but unless some of the things I don't particularly like get changed in the future I probably won't buy Zero Sight. I guess it doesn't really live up to my expectations for a flight simulator. Cheers! On 12/22/11, Christopher Bartlettthemusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think so, though others may disagree. While Zero Sight seems to provide an in-depth flying experience, I was actually quite disappointed in the modeling of how one actually flies an aircraft. I understand that those physics are difficult to make playable, so don't hold it against the developer, but it was sufficient to have me uninstalling the current demo. Lone Wolf's sub controls aren't exhaustively realistic, but they come much closer to providing the flavor of managing a submarine than do the flight controls and avionics of Zero Sight. I'm not saying don't enjoy the game if you do, but no, it's not yet in the class of Lone Wolf for this gamer. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
Hi Will, Not that I know of. the last version of Lone Wolf, v3.5, supports Jaws, Window-eyes, or SAPI. I guess version 4.0 will have additional screen reader support, but we'll have to wait and see when that version is released. Cheers! On 12/22/11, william lomas will.d.lo...@gmail.com wrote: does lone wolf have system access support? played it years ago i may buy it you know but haven't played that game in a few years has it had updates in the last few years? tried it when first released --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
If the patch is only for the full version, what about those of us who want to try the demo, with the changes having been made, to determine whether or not we want to buy? I do want the heading of 0 degrees to be north, rather than 90 degrees being north. I would not buy a game based on a buggy demo. Thanks. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Shard Workshop shardworks...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project Hi Thomas, if you are still interested, with patch 1.01 we have introduced the possibility of changing the default (Cartesian) heading with the Clock heading, with 0 degrees to the North, just by pressing A in the main menu. Just redownload the patch to try it out in case you want. http://www.shardworkshop.com/zero-sight 2011/12/22 Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Hi Chris, I agree. I tried the Zero Sight demo myself and it doesn't really grab my attention the way Lone Wolf does. Yeah, Lone Wolf doesn't necessarily stick to true physics either, but as you pointed out the experience does feel more realistic as a simulation than Zero Sight when we come down to a one on one comparison between the two. I honestly think Lone Wolf sets a president for any kind of combat simulation because it offers several starter missions, the ability to create custom missions, and the user interface is fairly straight forward. The keyboard commands are easy to remember because they make sense. A for area, f for fuel, d for depth, s for speed, etc are logical assignments. With Zero Sight I felt as though some keyboard assignments didn't make sense, and having 0 oriented to east instead of north just made the game too confusing for me.I'm willing to keep an an open mind about the game, but unless some of the things I don't particularly like get changed in the future I probably won't buy Zero Sight. I guess it doesn't really live up to my expectations for a flight simulator. Cheers! On 12/22/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think so, though others may disagree. While Zero Sight seems to provide an in-depth flying experience, I was actually quite disappointed in the modeling of how one actually flies an aircraft. I understand that those physics are difficult to make playable, so don't hold it against the developer, but it was sufficient to have me uninstalling the current demo. Lone Wolf's sub controls aren't exhaustively realistic, but they come much closer to providing the flavor of managing a submarine than do the flight controls and avionics of Zero Sight. I'm not saying don't enjoy the game if you do, but no, it's not yet in the class of Lone Wolf for this gamer. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
Hah, great! But don't worry, everybody can be our kind of customer, we surely don't think of making only flight simulator, we've got a lot a interesting things for you in the future :D 2011/12/22 Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com I'll echo Thomas' good wishes and praise for you. I am not your typical consumer, so don't take my critique too much to heart. One of these days, I'll get around to converting that excel data into the flight sim I want to play, which will likely interest only me. *smile* Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Shard Workshop Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 1:22 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project Thank you! We're really doing our best! 2011/12/22 Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Hi, thanks. I'll check the new demo out. As I said in my post I'm willing to keep an open mind on this game as there aren't too many good fighter sims out there for the blind and this one has potential. Just thought some of the bugs and features needed to be fixed before I was willing to spend money on it. However, if I haven't said so before you guys are off to a good start into the audio games community. Cheers! On 12/22/11, Shard Workshop shardworks...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Thomas, if you are still interested, with patch 1.01 we have introduced the possibility of changing the default (Cartesian) heading with the Clock heading, with 0 degrees to the North, just by pressing A in the main menu. Just redownload the patch to try it out in case you want. http://www.shardworkshop.com/zero-sight --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
oh yes, i know what your saying, and i agree, the more real it is, the better. go true flight sims! i mean, just look at why FSX is so dam popular. its cause even real pilots love it. but yes, there is also the point about coding a game, and sometimes, playability comes first before realism. i am a person who loves realism in a game, but sometimes i have to let it be. lol. dallas On 23/12/2011 06:50, Che wrote: I am with Chris on the hard core simulation aspect, and I think there are many others out there as well that would appreciate as much realism as possible in their simulations. As a diabetic, I could not get a pilot's license, though I wished badly to be able to fly. So back when I had sight, I bought an ultra light aircraft, which at the time did not require a license. Aftr taking lessons for several weeks, I was out flying the countryside, and other than some wild ladies in Los Angeles, its about as much fun as I've ever had. I was also a hard core simulation player, from Falcon, to Apache A H64, to Grand Prix Legends, including all the flight controls, force feedback steering wheels, etc. Point being, I know how an aircraft responds to input, and so far, nobody has gotten close to the realism a hard core simulation fan would be seeking. Frankly, as far as selling a game went, a developer would be better off making a shoot em up that was much more fun than realistic, especially given the difficulty of producing an accurate physics model for something so complicated. chris may have a spreadsheet of data, but having done a physics model for a racing game, with engine RPM transferred to transmission, transferred to the road, its not a task for the uninitiated, and something that will take hundreds and hundreds of hours of learning time behind a coding package to even begin to scratch at success. These games seem so simple when we play them, just push the throttle, then this or that happens, but under the hood, a lot is going on, and its not as simple as plugging A into B. It can be done however, no doubt in that, but ideas and wishful thinking are cheap, hard work and dedication to a project are not. Kudos to those out there taking a stab at flight simulation. I plan on doing some more sculpting of my Apache Helicopter Simulation as time permits over the next few years, and if I end up making a full product, it will be as realistic as I can make it, including two person cockpits, with one pilot, and one weapons engineer playing together over the internet and a voice comm, against other players in what should be some hard core action. . even for those not into hard core simulation, that outta be fun, eh? Later che --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
I don't doubt it and am very happy to have another developer working in our market, as it can only bring good to us. Looking forward, both to new offerings and to changes in this one. Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Shard Workshop Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 3:04 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project Hah, great! But don't worry, everybody can be our kind of customer, we surely don't think of making only flight simulator, we've got a lot a interesting things for you in the future :D 2011/12/22 Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com I'll echo Thomas' good wishes and praise for you. I am not your typical consumer, so don't take my critique too much to heart. One of these days, I'll get around to converting that excel data into the flight sim I want to play, which will likely interest only me. *smile* Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Shard Workshop Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 1:22 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project Thank you! We're really doing our best! 2011/12/22 Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Hi, thanks. I'll check the new demo out. As I said in my post I'm willing to keep an open mind on this game as there aren't too many good fighter sims out there for the blind and this one has potential. Just thought some of the bugs and features needed to be fixed before I was willing to spend money on it. However, if I haven't said so before you guys are off to a good start into the audio games community. Cheers! On 12/22/11, Shard Workshop shardworks...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Thomas, if you are still interested, with patch 1.01 we have introduced the possibility of changing the default (Cartesian) heading with the Clock heading, with 0 degrees to the North, just by pressing A in the main menu. Just redownload the patch to try it out in case you want. http://www.shardworkshop.com/zero-sight --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
thats good to hear, and i can't wait to see what you bring out next! dallas On 23/12/2011 06:03, Shard Workshop wrote: Hah, great! But don't worry, everybody can be our kind of customer, we surely don't think of making only flight simulator, we've got a lot a interesting things for you in the future :D 2011/12/22 Christopher Bartlettthemusicalbre...@gmail.com I'll echo Thomas' good wishes and praise for you. I am not your typical consumer, so don't take my critique too much to heart. One of these days, I'll get around to converting that excel data into the flight sim I want to play, which will likely interest only me. *smile* Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Shard Workshop Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 1:22 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project Thank you! We're really doing our best! 2011/12/22 Thomas Wardthomasward1...@gmail.com Hi, thanks. I'll check the new demo out. As I said in my post I'm willing to keep an open mind on this game as there aren't too many good fighter sims out there for the blind and this one has potential. Just thought some of the bugs and features needed to be fixed before I was willing to spend money on it. However, if I haven't said so before you guys are off to a good start into the audio games community. Cheers! On 12/22/11, Shard Workshopshardworks...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Thomas, if you are still interested, with patch 1.01 we have introduced the possibility of changing the default (Cartesian) heading with the Clock heading, with 0 degrees to the North, just by pressing A in the main menu. Just redownload the patch to try it out in case you want. http://www.shardworkshop.com/zero-sight --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
How about this new game the thread deals with, though? Do you find it boring? Thanks. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project I personally think lone Wolf is boring but that's me Sent from my iPhone On Dec 22, 2011, at 11:24 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Chris, I agree. I tried the Zero Sight demo myself and it doesn't really grab my attention the way Lone Wolf does. Yeah, Lone Wolf doesn't necessarily stick to true physics either, but as you pointed out the experience does feel more realistic as a simulation than Zero Sight when we come down to a one on one comparison between the two. I honestly think Lone Wolf sets a president for any kind of combat simulation because it offers several starter missions, the ability to create custom missions, and the user interface is fairly straight forward. The keyboard commands are easy to remember because they make sense. A for area, f for fuel, d for depth, s for speed, etc are logical assignments. With Zero Sight I felt as though some keyboard assignments didn't make sense, and having 0 oriented to east instead of north just made the game too confusing for me.I'm willing to keep an an open mind about the game, but unless some of the things I don't particularly like get changed in the future I probably won't buy Zero Sight. I guess it doesn't really live up to my expectations for a flight simulator. Cheers! On 12/22/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think so, though others may disagree. While Zero Sight seems to provide an in-depth flying experience, I was actually quite disappointed in the modeling of how one actually flies an aircraft. I understand that those physics are difficult to make playable, so don't hold it against the developer, but it was sufficient to have me uninstalling the current demo. Lone Wolf's sub controls aren't exhaustively realistic, but they come much closer to providing the flavor of managing a submarine than do the flight controls and avionics of Zero Sight. I'm not saying don't enjoy the game if you do, but no, it's not yet in the class of Lone Wolf for this gamer. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
yes, and on the site, he does say along with the fact that the patch is for the full version, that you will need to re download the demo to update that. dallas On 23/12/2011 08:56, Charles Rivard wrote: It's a bit confusing, because it says, on the web page, that the patch is for the full version. Yet, I think, the developer said, to this list, that the changes were made to the patch, no mention of the demo. I went ahead and redownloaded the demo again, just in case. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: william lomas will.d.lo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project i think it applies to the demo, to On Dec 22, 2011, at 7:29 PM, Charles Rivard wrote: If the patch is only for the full version, what about those of us who want to try the demo, with the changes having been made, to determine whether or not we want to buy? I do want the heading of 0 degrees to be north, rather than 90 degrees being north. I would not buy a game based on a buggy demo. Thanks. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Shard Workshop shardworks...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project Hi Thomas, if you are still interested, with patch 1.01 we have introduced the possibility of changing the default (Cartesian) heading with the Clock heading, with 0 degrees to the North, just by pressing A in the main menu. Just redownload the patch to try it out in case you want. http://www.shardworkshop.com/zero-sight 2011/12/22 Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Hi Chris, I agree. I tried the Zero Sight demo myself and it doesn't really grab my attention the way Lone Wolf does. Yeah, Lone Wolf doesn't necessarily stick to true physics either, but as you pointed out the experience does feel more realistic as a simulation than Zero Sight when we come down to a one on one comparison between the two. I honestly think Lone Wolf sets a president for any kind of combat simulation because it offers several starter missions, the ability to create custom missions, and the user interface is fairly straight forward. The keyboard commands are easy to remember because they make sense. A for area, f for fuel, d for depth, s for speed, etc are logical assignments. With Zero Sight I felt as though some keyboard assignments didn't make sense, and having 0 oriented to east instead of north just made the game too confusing for me.I'm willing to keep an an open mind about the game, but unless some of the things I don't particularly like get changed in the future I probably won't buy Zero Sight. I guess it doesn't really live up to my expectations for a flight simulator. Cheers! On 12/22/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think so, though others may disagree. While Zero Sight seems to provide an in-depth flying experience, I was actually quite disappointed in the modeling of how one actually flies an aircraft. I understand that those physics are difficult to make playable, so don't hold it against the developer, but it was sufficient to have me uninstalling the current demo. Lone Wolf's sub controls aren't exhaustively realistic, but they come much closer to providing the flavor of managing a submarine than do the flight controls and avionics of Zero Sight. I'm not saying don't enjoy the game if you do, but no, it's not yet in the class of Lone Wolf for this gamer. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project
Me thinks I missed something? (sheepish grin) --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Dallas O'Brien dallas-obr...@bigpond.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project yes, and on the site, he does say along with the fact that the patch is for the full version, that you will need to re download the demo to update that. dallas On 23/12/2011 08:56, Charles Rivard wrote: It's a bit confusing, because it says, on the web page, that the patch is for the full version. Yet, I think, the developer said, to this list, that the changes were made to the patch, no mention of the demo. I went ahead and redownloaded the demo again, just in case. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: william lomas will.d.lo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project i think it applies to the demo, to On Dec 22, 2011, at 7:29 PM, Charles Rivard wrote: If the patch is only for the full version, what about those of us who want to try the demo, with the changes having been made, to determine whether or not we want to buy? I do want the heading of 0 degrees to be north, rather than 90 degrees being north. I would not buy a game based on a buggy demo. Thanks. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Shard Workshop shardworks...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought on the Shard Workshop project Hi Thomas, if you are still interested, with patch 1.01 we have introduced the possibility of changing the default (Cartesian) heading with the Clock heading, with 0 degrees to the North, just by pressing A in the main menu. Just redownload the patch to try it out in case you want. http://www.shardworkshop.com/zero-sight 2011/12/22 Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Hi Chris, I agree. I tried the Zero Sight demo myself and it doesn't really grab my attention the way Lone Wolf does. Yeah, Lone Wolf doesn't necessarily stick to true physics either, but as you pointed out the experience does feel more realistic as a simulation than Zero Sight when we come down to a one on one comparison between the two. I honestly think Lone Wolf sets a president for any kind of combat simulation because it offers several starter missions, the ability to create custom missions, and the user interface is fairly straight forward. The keyboard commands are easy to remember because they make sense. A for area, f for fuel, d for depth, s for speed, etc are logical assignments. With Zero Sight I felt as though some keyboard assignments didn't make sense, and having 0 oriented to east instead of north just made the game too confusing for me.I'm willing to keep an an open mind about the game, but unless some of the things I don't particularly like get changed in the future I probably won't buy Zero Sight. I guess it doesn't really live up to my expectations for a flight simulator. Cheers! On 12/22/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think so, though others may disagree. While Zero Sight seems to provide an in-depth flying experience, I was actually quite disappointed in the modeling of how one actually flies an aircraft. I understand that those physics are difficult to make playable, so don't hold it against the developer, but it was sufficient to have me uninstalling the current demo. Lone Wolf's sub controls aren't exhaustively realistic, but they come much closer to providing the flavor of managing a submarine than do the flight controls and avionics of Zero Sight. I'm not saying don't enjoy the game if you do, but no, it's not yet in the class of Lone Wolf for this gamer. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions
