Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Hi Munawar, Well, Java is getting faster. The Java 6 runtime has pretty fast exicution speeds compared to earlier releases, but it is still primarily designed for general applications and not so much games. I've used my fair share of Java apps on Linux such as Star Office, Sun's MS Office clone, Jpodder, and a few other apps here and there and it works fairly well with those kinds of programs. However, when I tried creating an early version of Mysteries of the Ancients in Java it didn't run as well as it should have. The .NET versions execution times were faster and more stable thant he Java port. Some of the bugs I could have fixed, but I wasn't too sure I could resolve the issues with exicution speeds so abandoned it before I got too far into it. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Hi all! I am using not .net because I don't want to have a requirements page with lots of updates the user must download. The motto is: Instal and play So I stay with direct x 8, because it's simply installed on each windows system. Regards Claudio --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Hi, You're correct about Java. For all intents and purposes, I view it as more of a data analysis language than anything else. For instance, measuring the O() running time of a program is very easily done in Java. It seems to be really good for database programming but as far as games go it's pretty slow. In fact I'm amazed how quick .NET is given that it's also a runtime language. Munawar A. Bijani blog: http://munawar0009.blogspot.com http://www.bpcprograms.com Follow on Twitter for blog updates: http://www.twitter.com/munawar0009 -- From: "Thomas Ward" Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 5:42 PM To: "Gamers Discussion list" Subject: Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question Hi Willem, Good point. I think strictly for training purposes Java is good to know. Plus it is nice for general cross-platform programming. It just isn't too cool if you want to write something like Tank Commander or Shades of Doom. It wasn't designed for anything quite that intensive. There are however games out there written in pure Java that apparently work alright. I know of a baseball game written in Java, several card and board games, and of course the 7-128 games. Java can do games, but just don't try to create anything super advanced with it. Cheers! Willem wrote: Hello nick. I did my first year in computer science using Java. While it isn't the best language for fast action accessible game development, it has many selling points, including portability and it also has similar syntax to c++. All in all it isn't a bad language to start with, especially considering that object orientated languages seems the way to go. The corse I did placed emphasis on modular programming, which is good and again another selling point of the Java language. Practically speaking, the Java virtual machine which it uses to execute the bytecode is the slowest of the languages that use a similar approach and even interpreted languages like python and ruby is faster. I am getting quite off topic now, so write me off list if you need more information. hth. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Another game programming question
Hi John, Well, as far as Java and sound goes there are a couple of solutions that could give a developer high powered audio support if he/she needs it. One such package is the free and open source Joal project which is a Java binding to OpenAL 1.1. Through Joal a Java developer could get the same great features as OpenAL such as hardware mixing, 3d positioning, Virtualization, streaming ogg files, etc. I don't disagree with you that Java is certainly easier to program, that much is true, but I also know you wind up installing a lot of extra dependencies with your application as well. Let's assume someone writes a game using Java with SWT for the standard GUI, JInput for input, Joal for audio, and you end up having to create an installer with several MB of extra dependencies. You have the Java 6 runtime, plus the SWT package, theJInput package, the Joal package, OpenAL32.dll, all which adds up to around 85 MB of extra dependencies for that single game. I know many people have highspeed internet, lots of hard drive space these days, but still adding that much xtra is quite a lot when you compare it to the size of a similar C++ application. With a C++ application using SDL for cross-platform input support and OpenAL for audio support all the developer needs to do is ship two libraries, SDLMain.dll and OpenAL32.dll, with the application and that's pretty much it for dependancies. We are talking about 2 MB for dependencies verses say 85 MB or so in dependencies. That's a big difference in my book. Cheers! John Bannick wrote: Nick, Here's the link to the Java Access Bridge: http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/accessibility/accessbridge/ We use it with Java / Swing for all our games. However, I agree with Thomas. If you are starting out with no legacy code, then you might be better off with Java / SWT. Java's two strong points are: 1. It's a lot easier to learn, code, and maintain than C++. 2. You can use it on the Mac and on Linux. If your games demand high-powered sound, then Thomas is also correct that the C#/C++ API's are better than what Java offers. But be prepared for a whole lot of work. Just ask him. John Bannick www.7128.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Hi Willem, Good point. I think strictly for training purposes Java is good to know. Plus it is nice for general cross-platform programming. It just isn't too cool if you want to write something like Tank Commander or Shades of Doom. It wasn't designed for anything quite that intensive. There are however games out there written in pure Java that apparently work alright. I know of a baseball game written in Java, several card and board games, and of course the 7-128 games. Java can do games, but just don't try to create anything super advanced with it. Cheers! Willem wrote: Hello nick. I did my first year in computer science using Java. While it isn't the best language for fast action accessible game development, it has many selling points, including portability and it also has similar syntax to c++. All in all it isn't a bad language to start with, especially considering that object orientated languages seems the way to go. The corse I did placed emphasis on modular programming, which is good and again another selling point of the Java language. Practically speaking, the Java virtual machine which it uses to execute the bytecode is the slowest of the languages that use a similar approach and even interpreted languages like python and ruby is faster. I am getting quite off topic now, so write me off list if you need more information. hth. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Hi Jason, While you made some very good points on the subject of C++ verses .NET there is perhaps some other things here maybe you haven't considered. When it comes to supporting multiple operating systems like Mac OS, Linux, and Windows it is certainly true supporting all three platforms won't dramatically improve the developer's sales and number of customers. However, there is more to writing games than just making money. There is the customer's freedom of choice, and his/her right to use something other than Windows based software. I know that Josh, from Draconis Entertainment, has for all intents and purposes switched over to Mac OS. He is very supportive of that operating system and Draconis Entertainment's new titles will run on Mac OS natively as well as Windows. While he could write Windows versions and run them through some kind of virtual machine that still isn't as good as writing a native version for the operating system itself. Virtual machines are nice, but only a quick fix for a much larger problem. That being that many companies, developers, and so on tend to see that Windows is the biggest source of money out there, create Windows specific software for it, and ignore everything else. Since they are responsible for restricting the number of applications for Mac and Linux people are less likely to use those operating systems. It is simply a vicious cycle of Windows is the biggest software platform out there, companies write software only for Windows, in turn making Windows all the more important to have. Like Josh I also don't use Windows regularly. I have MS Windows installed on this laptop, but my main desktop doesn't use Windows at all. It runs Ubuntu Linux complete with the Orca screen reader, Open Office, Evolution for E-mail, Firefox for the web, etc. All of it is free cost effective software which means I don't have to pay Microsoft, Freedom Scientific, or anyone else huge amounts of money to keep that computer up to date and running. Not to mention the ability to install the operating system from scratch using speech. For all of these reasons I choose to use Linux, not Windows, for most of my computer work, and I truly wish more accessible games were available for Linux. So part of my reason of switching from .NET to C++ is so that I'll have the choice and ability to begin creating games for Linux. Not because of money, but because I personally use that operating system more than Windows. Weather I make one cent off my Linux versions of the games is less important to me than my right to choose not to use Windows if I don't want to. That's the difference between me and some of the other game developers out there. Regarding .NET security it is true these days obfuscation is pretty good and secure. Still weather someone will try and disassemble the code and reverse engineer it remains to be seen. There may not be many here with the ability or desire to do it, but it still needs to be considered. I will say if you don't use a good obfuscation program it is very easy to disassemble a .NET executable and convert it back to readable source code. Which is not good, and requires a bit of extra money to secure your program from a hacking attempt. As far as the XNA Framework I haven't kept up with development of that API, but when I looked at it last I wasn't too impressed with it. Plus I really can't find anything for .NET that truly satisfies me. Yeah, I could use FMOD, Irrklang, or SlimDX, but I could write the same application in C++ and still use those APIs directly. By the same stroke I can create Linux and Mac ports as well. So I really see very little advantage for me in sticking to .NET for future game development. Bottom line, I think a lot of this is what the developers goals are. If you only want to support Windows, Windows based APIs, then using .NET is probably ok. However, if you are like me, using Linux instead of Windows, then using non-Windows based solutions is ultimately more important. In C++ I can create a program in C++ using SDL for input and OpenAL for audio that will run on Mac, Linux, and Windows equally well. It is true that I will lack some of the functionality of XNA or DirectX, but I'll still be able to pick my operating system of choice. It comes down to choice of what is important and not important to you as a game developer. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Hello nick. I did my first year in computer science using Java. While it isn't the best language for fast action accessible game development, it has many selling points, including portability and it also has similar syntax to c++. All in all it isn't a bad language to start with, especially considering that object orientated languages seems the way to go. The corse I did placed emphasis on modular programming, which is good and again another selling point of the Java language. Practically speaking, the Java virtual machine which it uses to execute the bytecode is the slowest of the languages that use a similar approach and even interpreted languages like python and ruby is faster. I am getting quite off topic now, so write me off list if you need more information. hth. On 2009/12/16 12:03 AM, Nick Helms wrote: good question! I'd like to take some computer science classes, possibly next summer to learn some programming, but I'm not sure with language to persoo. I've been told that java is a good starting point, but I don't believe I've ever used a program created with java that is usable with jfw. On 12/15/09, Chastity MORSE wrote: Okay, where can I find a good tutorial for the pygame language that will let me create something simple to start with? Will pygame transfer between windows mac platforms or do I need to make two sets of code for each platform? Which game types will this support: card games, board games and such? Also for more complicated games similar to SOD, MOTA, and Q9, will C#.net work or should I go with C++? I'm looking to try some sort of shooter adventure game in the future once I get the hang of game coding. Will either or both of the C languages work for both Windows and the Mac? How do I incorporate the Sappy TTS into games or is that sort of built in? If not, where can I find the code for sappy voices so that the game speaks? I read that full Python isn't transferable, but so does that mean that pygame isn't either? So, I'm just guessing here, but then it might be good to stick with C++ or C#.net instead of any version of python and stay away from java. Sorry, this email might be a bit confusing to people. I want to try something simpole first like a card, matching, board game or simple chase game. Then, I want to move up to something more complex with enemies and levels, weapons, and randomness so the game plays different each time you start it, that part would be similar to MOTA or Entoomed I guess. I want to find the code and no, I don't mind learning code of most any type as long as the code has some sort of explanation for what it does or where you might put each code. One more thing, can I just start learning code or is there something else I should start with first? Any good links for helpful tutorials and things will be appreciated. No, I'm not looking at java as it seems it isn't very accessible for screen readers and the full python language is all its own and not part of any of the C languages, so that might be out, but I don't know if that's true for pygame as well. So, my options seem to be C++ if its still supported since Microsoft came out with the C#.net, which is the other option. I also would like the games to speak for themselves, if possible and that seems to require some version and code for the Sappy TTS voices. Thanks to all: Chastity --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
C++ wins cross platform absolutely. But with virtual desktops, it's not as big of a win as it used to be. If you go C++, you absolutely must learn object oriented programming concepts. C++ supports these, but they aren't as elegant as more recent programming languages like C#. If you use C#, you have no choice but to write object oriented code, so there really isn't an issue there. .NET is well thought out and modern. You don't need to use the XACT sound tool (the much maligned sound creation engine mentioned in this thread) to make sounds for games using the XNA framework. XNA comes built in with sound and music libraries that don't use XACT at all. They support loading mp3s as well. XACT is powerful but clunky, buggy, and a million other negatives. As for security, .NET can be decompiled. But if you're using modern programming concepts (which you will be) no one is going to be able to recompile it. It essentially obfuscates itself. Of course, obfuscating the code is another option. Is anyone going to want to spend the thousands of hours to reverse engineer your game? Not likely. If you had top secret code or projects, it's a much bigger problem. C# supports a design concept called RAD, or rapid application development. You will write larger / more complex programs much, much faster in C# than writing the same application in C++. C# also supports automatic garbage collection which is a big deal when it comes to memory management and debugging. The biggest drawback to C# is that you're essentially tied to Microsoft. You have to intelligently weigh the benefits to porting your game to all platforms. How many Linux players are you going to get really? What about Macs? How many players do you lose if they can virtualize your game in their native operating system? Is it still worth it? Cheers! Jason --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Hi Nick, SWT isn't a program but a package or library of classes and functions used for drawing windows, buttons, text labels, etc. Basically, all of the things you would expect from a standard Windows program. It is what we call in the programming business an API. You add it to your Java program by making a project link to SWT in your development environment, and then you begin programming using that package. You import the namespaces you want or need, and, well, you create the windows by using the classes and functions contained in that package. As far as developing goes you will need the Sun Java JDK, I recommend 1.6, and an IDE like Eclipse. Eclipse comes with the SWT packages so it isn't like you have to find and install something separate here. If you use Eclipse you can write and debug the code in the Eclipse IDE. In addition if you feel like doing things manually, like I do, you can always use the commandline tools like javac directly. However, that's more of an advanced programmers way of doing things I suppose. HTH Nick Helms wrote: How would I get swt to work with my programs? I assume that I could write the code, compile, etc, but I would obviously have a hard time running it if it didn’t work with my screenreader. Basicly what I’m asking is, where would SWT come in to play? I assume I would need it to debug because I would need to test varius blocks of code before compilation. Also, is there a program for developing java applications that will let you enter the code, help you debug it, etc? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Another game programming question
Hi Nick, Sure there are. I can tell you right off hand you can find books on Java programming on Bookshare, and Safari has lots of Java books as well. I have a rather large Java collection myself, about 25 books in all, so I know there is quite a bit of material out there on the language. Although, I've tried using java for game development and it didn't work out too well for me. It is fine for simple turn based type games such as the games 7-128 creates, but when trying to use it for fast action side-scrollers and FPS type titles it was disappointingly unable to meet my expectations. The Java sound API isn't exactly as good as using DirectSound or OpenAL, and the AWT keyboard input is too slow for fast action player input. There are solutions for these things such as Joal and JInput, but finding quality documentation on them is another matter. HTH Nick Helms wrote: are there any good java resources for new blind programmers? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Another game programming question
Hi Nick, All of Sun's accessibility projects can be found on http://www.sun.com/access and it is right on there accessibility download page. HTH Nick Helms wrote: I must say that is quite exciting! So I can take advantage of java after all.would it be possible for someone to send me a link to the java access bridge? thanks, Nick --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
How would I get swt to work with my programs? I assume that I could write the code, compile, etc, but I would obviously have a hard time running it if it didn’t work with my screenreader. Basicly what I’m asking is, where would SWT come in to play? I assume I would need it to debug because I would need to test varius blocks of code before compilation. Also, is there a program for developing java applications that will let you enter the code, help you debug it, etc? On 12/16/09, Thomas Ward wrote: > Hi Nick, > When it comes to Java there are ways of making your Java software > accessible. Currently there are two accessibility solutions available. > The first is if you are using the Swing graphics toolkit for programming > you will need the Java accessibility bridge in order to get programs > like Jaws to interface with the Java program. The problem with this > solution is that currently not every screen reader has Java access > bridge support. So even if you can get Jaws to work with your Java > application there is no guarantee that Window Eyes or something else > won't have a problem with it. Therefore I'd stay clear of the Swing > graphics toolkit for accessibility reasons. > The second solution is to use the SWT toolkit. What makes SWT different > here is that it is a Java based wrapper for the underlying standard > graphics toolkit for the target platform, such as the Win32 API on > Windows, so that any kind of programs you create use the standard GUI > for programming. The advantage is because it uses say Win32 instead of a > totally Java based GUI all of the screen readers I know of, including > Window Eyes, can use the Java application without the need of any > special software like the Java access bridge. So if you do decide to go > with Java I recommend using SWT rather than Swing for your programs. > > HTH > > > > Nick Helms wrote: >> good question! I'd like to take some computer science classes, >> possibly next summer to learn some programming, but I'm not sure with >> language to persoo. I've been told that java is a good starting point, >> but I don't believe I've ever used a program created with java that is >> usable with jfw. >> > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > -- Nick Helms "I will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do." twitter: Nickster919 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Hi Nick, When it comes to Java there are ways of making your Java software accessible. Currently there are two accessibility solutions available. The first is if you are using the Swing graphics toolkit for programming you will need the Java accessibility bridge in order to get programs like Jaws to interface with the Java program. The problem with this solution is that currently not every screen reader has Java access bridge support. So even if you can get Jaws to work with your Java application there is no guarantee that Window Eyes or something else won't have a problem with it. Therefore I'd stay clear of the Swing graphics toolkit for accessibility reasons. The second solution is to use the SWT toolkit. What makes SWT different here is that it is a Java based wrapper for the underlying standard graphics toolkit for the target platform, such as the Win32 API on Windows, so that any kind of programs you create use the standard GUI for programming. The advantage is because it uses say Win32 instead of a totally Java based GUI all of the screen readers I know of, including Window Eyes, can use the Java application without the need of any special software like the Java access bridge. So if you do decide to go with Java I recommend using SWT rather than Swing for your programs. HTH Nick Helms wrote: good question! I'd like to take some computer science classes, possibly next summer to learn some programming, but I'm not sure with language to persoo. I've been told that java is a good starting point, but I don't believe I've ever used a program created with java that is usable with jfw. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Another game programming question
are there any good java resources for new blind programmers? On 12/16/09, Nick Helms wrote: > I must say that is quite exciting! So I can take advantage of java > after all.would it be possible for someone to send me a link to the > java access bridge? > thanks, > Nick > > On 12/16/09, Eleanor wrote: >> Nick Helms stated: >> >> *"I've been told that java is a good starting point, >> but I don't believe I've ever used a program created with java that is >> usable with jfw."* >> >> Java will work with Jaws for Windows if you use the Java access bridge. >> That is a program that allows access to Java from Jaws. 7-128 Software >> uses that for all its current games. >> >> Eleanor Robinson >> 7-128 Software >> >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. >> > > > -- > > Nick Helms > "I will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do." > twitter: Nickster919 > -- Nick Helms "I will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do." twitter: Nickster919 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Another game programming question
I must say that is quite exciting! So I can take advantage of java after all.would it be possible for someone to send me a link to the java access bridge? thanks, Nick On 12/16/09, Eleanor wrote: > Nick Helms stated: > > *"I've been told that java is a good starting point, > but I don't believe I've ever used a program created with java that is > usable with jfw."* > > Java will work with Jaws for Windows if you use the Java access bridge. > That is a program that allows access to Java from Jaws. 7-128 Software > uses that for all its current games. > > Eleanor Robinson > 7-128 Software > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > -- Nick Helms "I will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do." twitter: Nickster919 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Hi Damien, Yeah, I know. C++ has several different data types including chars, strings, shorts, booleans, longs, double, floats, pointers, integers, plus several ones Microsoft created for handles, dword flags, results, etc. When coming from Visual Basic 6 or one of the .NET languages it can become quite intimidating and overwhelming. However, the reason C++ has so many different data types is a throwback to the days when programmers really had to worry about how many bytes they were storing in memory at any given point in time. If I remember shorts are 2 bytes, longs are 4 bytes, doubles are 8 bytes, etc. An unsigned integer can store any number from -32,768 to 32,767. A signed integer is something like 1 to 65,534. Anyway, C++ gives you the power really to manage the amount of data you are storing in memory and use the data type best suited for the data being stored. Anyone coming from .NET or a language like Visual Basic take one look at this and freak as they are holy unprepared for the scope of data types and degree of memory management available to them. We haven't even began to talk about pointers which Visual Basic 6 and the .NET languages don't even have. It's different and definitely more advanced programming. Damien C. Sadler wrote: Hi Thomas, Yes, that does look complicated, but then again for the past week I have been struggling with various parts of a C tutorial that was written by a friend of mine. Where in Visual Basic you have strings, booleans, longs, integers, types and classes, in C you have chars, ints, shorts, longs, doubles, floats, pointers, structures and even completely new user defined data types which seem to look more complicated the more I try to understand it. Philip Bennefall has been fantastic and has helped me with various parts of it, but at the moment my brain feels like it has fallen into the fire and turned into a shrivelled burned up piece of paper *smile*. I seriously wish I had been taught this language right from the start when I was introduced to so-called programming 10 years ago. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Hi Thomas, Yes, that does look complicated, but then again for the past week I have been struggling with various parts of a C tutorial that was written by a friend of mine. Where in Visual Basic you have strings, booleans, longs, integers, types and classes, in C you have chars, ints, shorts, longs, doubles, floats, pointers, structures and even completely new user defined data types which seem to look more complicated the more I try to understand it. Philip Bennefall has been fantastic and has helped me with various parts of it, but at the moment my brain feels like it has fallen into the fire and turned into a shrivelled burned up piece of paper *smile*. I seriously wish I had been taught this language right from the start when I was introduced to so-called programming 10 years ago. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question Hi Chastity, Wow! A lot of questions to answer here. I'll do my best to answer them so bare with me as I try to explain things as best as I can. As far as PyGame goes it is a cross-platform Python wrapper for the SDL API that works on Mac OS, Linux, and Windows. While I like the simplicity of PyGame and SDL it still leaves a lot to be desired. SDL only has very generic input device support for keyboards, joysticks, and mice so if you have a specific type of controller with advanced features like force feedback support you are out of luck. SDL_Mixer also has its drawbacks. A lot of features I use in DirectX such as changing the frequency/pitch of the sounds in real time isn't currently available with SDL. SDL_Mixer has a software mixer for doing virtual 3d audio, but it is not as realistic or as good as the hardware mixing you get with an API like OpenAL. As a result PyGame and SDL based games lack features that you could get with better game libraries such as DirectX, OpenAL, FMOD, etc. Which Python doesn't support to my knowledge. So I wouldn't really recommend Python if you wanted to create the next Shades of Doom or Mysteries of the Ancients. When it comes to C# .NET it certainly could be used to create a game like Q9, Mysteries of the Ancients, or Shades of Doom. In fact, Mysteries of the Ancients is currently written in C# .NET. However, it is unfortunately first and foremost a Windows based programming language. Although there is a cross-platform framework called Mono and cross-platform game API called SdlDotNet it is less than a perfect gaming solution. For one thing I've heard that Microsoft is trying to take the Mono project's developers to court over various copyright issues, and who knows how long C# .NET will continue to be supported on Mac OS and Linux. So legal issues would not make C# .NET a great solution right now for cross-platform development in my personal opinion. Even for strict Windows development I've had my fare share of problems with the language. First, Microsoft released a DirectX API for C# .NET, called Managed DirectX, which has a number of bugs and is no longer officially supported by Microsoft. Second, in 2007 Microsoft released an alternative to Managed DirectX called the XNA Framework which has some screen reader accessibility issues. The main accessibility problem is the tool they use for building soundbanks, setting up sound properties, etc isn't accessible for a totally blind user. Third, SdlDotNet has the same general limitations as PyGame. Last, there is the SlimDX API which is pretty good, but their documentation isn't as good as it could be. They often have you look things up in the official Microsoft documentation for C++ which means you need to understand C++ on some level to be able to red and fully understand the docs. There is another sound API, FMODEX, which is really good, but if you use it for commercial games it is quite expensive to license. Bottom line, C# might be a good language to know and use, but it doesn't have a lot of great choices for game programming libraries. There are a few other things about C# .NET you might want to be aware of before you consider using C# .NET for game programming. When you compile a C# .NET or VB .NET application using Visual Studio .NET it converts your source code to something called MSIL, the Microsoft Intermediate Language, which gets read and run by the .NET runtime. As a result your application can easily be hacked and cracked and reverse engineered by a skilled .NET developer. So if you ever decide to create commercial programs you will have to purchase an obfuscation tool to scramble the MSIL code so that only the framework can read it, but if someone tries to reverse engineer the game they get nothing but jumbled garbage in their favorite disassembler. From a commercial developer's perspective
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Hi Chastity, Wow! A lot of questions to answer here. I'll do my best to answer them so bare with me as I try to explain things as best as I can. As far as PyGame goes it is a cross-platform Python wrapper for the SDL API that works on Mac OS, Linux, and Windows. While I like the simplicity of PyGame and SDL it still leaves a lot to be desired. SDL only has very generic input device support for keyboards, joysticks, and mice so if you have a specific type of controller with advanced features like force feedback support you are out of luck. SDL_Mixer also has its drawbacks. A lot of features I use in DirectX such as changing the frequency/pitch of the sounds in real time isn't currently available with SDL. SDL_Mixer has a software mixer for doing virtual 3d audio, but it is not as realistic or as good as the hardware mixing you get with an API like OpenAL. As a result PyGame and SDL based games lack features that you could get with better game libraries such as DirectX, OpenAL, FMOD, etc. Which Python doesn't support to my knowledge. So I wouldn't really recommend Python if you wanted to create the next Shades of Doom or Mysteries of the Ancients. When it comes to C# .NET it certainly could be used to create a game like Q9, Mysteries of the Ancients, or Shades of Doom. In fact, Mysteries of the Ancients is currently written in C# .NET. However, it is unfortunately first and foremost a Windows based programming language. Although there is a cross-platform framework called Mono and cross-platform game API called SdlDotNet it is less than a perfect gaming solution. For one thing I've heard that Microsoft is trying to take the Mono project's developers to court over various copyright issues, and who knows how long C# .NET will continue to be supported on Mac OS and Linux. So legal issues would not make C# .NET a great solution right now for cross-platform development in my personal opinion. Even for strict Windows development I've had my fare share of problems with the language. First, Microsoft released a DirectX API for C# .NET, called Managed DirectX, which has a number of bugs and is no longer officially supported by Microsoft. Second, in 2007 Microsoft released an alternative to Managed DirectX called the XNA Framework which has some screen reader accessibility issues. The main accessibility problem is the tool they use for building soundbanks, setting up sound properties, etc isn't accessible for a totally blind user. Third, SdlDotNet has the same general limitations as PyGame. Last, there is the SlimDX API which is pretty good, but their documentation isn't as good as it could be. They often have you look things up in the official Microsoft documentation for C++ which means you need to understand C++ on some level to be able to red and fully understand the docs. There is another sound API, FMODEX, which is really good, but if you use it for commercial games it is quite expensive to license. Bottom line, C# might be a good language to know and use, but it doesn't have a lot of great choices for game programming libraries. There are a few other things about C# .NET you might want to be aware of before you consider using C# .NET for game programming. When you compile a C# .NET or VB .NET application using Visual Studio .NET it converts your source code to something called MSIL, the Microsoft Intermediate Language, which gets read and run by the .NET runtime. As a result your application can easily be hacked and cracked and reverse engineered by a skilled .NET developer. So if you ever decide to create commercial programs you will have to purchase an obfuscation tool to scramble the MSIL code so that only the framework can read it, but if someone tries to reverse engineer the game they get nothing but jumbled garbage in their favorite disassembler. From a commercial developer's perspective .NET based languages are something of a security risk. Personally, I have come to believe the one and only true option for game development is good old C++. Besides myself I know of several accessible game developers who also are now turning to C++. I know that Draconis Entertainment is developing a new game engine in C++ that runs on Mac and Windows, Philip's Q9 game was written in C++, and a couple of other game developers are now looking at C++ for their future games. I think several of our audio game developers have tried other things like visual Basic 6, C# .NET, Python, etc and found them lacking. The C++ language is beginning to take a foothold as the game language of choice for accessible game developers, and there are a number of reasons why. First, there are plenty of free C++ compilers and tools out there such as Visual C++ Express, MinGW, Cygwin, etc for example. As a result you don't really have a lot of start up costs. If you want to buy books and license certain libraries that is fine, but as a rule you can get decent tools and libraries for
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Thanks Fill. I'll check those out. On 12/15/09, Nick Helms wrote: > good question! I'd like to take some computer science classes, > possibly next summer to learn some programming, but I'm not sure with > language to persoo. I've been told that java is a good starting point, > but I don't believe I've ever used a program created with java that is > usable with jfw. > > On 12/15/09, Chastity MORSE wrote: >> Okay, where can I find a good tutorial for the pygame language that will >> let >> me create something simple to start with? >> Will pygame transfer between windows mac platforms or do I need to make >> two >> sets of code for each platform? >> Which game types will this support: card games, board games and such? >> >> Also for more complicated games similar to SOD, MOTA, and Q9, will C#.net >> work or should I go with C++? >> I'm looking to try some sort of shooter adventure game in the future once >> I >> get the hang of game coding. >> Will either or both of the C languages work for both Windows and the Mac? >> How do I incorporate the Sappy TTS into games or is that sort of built >> in? >> If not, where can I find the code for sappy voices so that the game >> speaks? >> >> I read that full Python isn't transferable, but so does that mean that >> pygame isn't either? So, I'm just guessing here, but then it might be >> good >> to stick with C++ or C#.net instead of any version of python and stay >> away >> from java. >> >> Sorry, this email might be a bit confusing to people. I want to try >> something simpole first like a card, matching, board game or simple chase >> game. Then, I want to move up to something more complex with enemies and >> levels, weapons, and randomness so the game plays different each time you >> start it, that part would be similar to MOTA or Entoomed I guess. I want >> to >> find the code and no, I don't mind learning code of most any type as long >> as >> the code has some sort of explanation for what it does or where you might >> put each code. >> >> One more thing, can I just start learning code or is there something else >> I >> should start with first? >> Any good links for helpful tutorials and things will be appreciated. No, >> I'm >> not looking at java as it seems it isn't very accessible for screen >> readers >> and the full python language is all its own and not part of any of the C >> languages, so that might be out, but I don't know if that's true for >> pygame >> as well. So, my options seem to be C++ if its still supported since >> Microsoft came out with the C#.net, which is the other option. I also >> would >> like the games to speak for themselves, if possible and that seems to >> require some version and code for the Sappy TTS voices. >> Thanks to all: >> Chastity >> >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. >> > > > -- > I am not stupid. > I just do dumb things! > Theodore Jonson > > > website: Nickhelms.net > sip phone number: 360-526-6509 > twitter: Nickster919 > -- Nick Helms "I will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do." twitter: Nickster919 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
good question! I'd like to take some computer science classes, possibly next summer to learn some programming, but I'm not sure with language to persoo. I've been told that java is a good starting point, but I don't believe I've ever used a program created with java that is usable with jfw. On 12/15/09, Chastity MORSE wrote: > Okay, where can I find a good tutorial for the pygame language that will let > me create something simple to start with? > Will pygame transfer between windows mac platforms or do I need to make two > sets of code for each platform? > Which game types will this support: card games, board games and such? > > Also for more complicated games similar to SOD, MOTA, and Q9, will C#.net > work or should I go with C++? > I'm looking to try some sort of shooter adventure game in the future once I > get the hang of game coding. > Will either or both of the C languages work for both Windows and the Mac? > How do I incorporate the Sappy TTS into games or is that sort of built in? > If not, where can I find the code for sappy voices so that the game speaks? > > I read that full Python isn't transferable, but so does that mean that > pygame isn't either? So, I'm just guessing here, but then it might be good > to stick with C++ or C#.net instead of any version of python and stay away > from java. > > Sorry, this email might be a bit confusing to people. I want to try > something simpole first like a card, matching, board game or simple chase > game. Then, I want to move up to something more complex with enemies and > levels, weapons, and randomness so the game plays different each time you > start it, that part would be similar to MOTA or Entoomed I guess. I want to > find the code and no, I don't mind learning code of most any type as long as > the code has some sort of explanation for what it does or where you might > put each code. > > One more thing, can I just start learning code or is there something else I > should start with first? > Any good links for helpful tutorials and things will be appreciated. No, I'm > not looking at java as it seems it isn't very accessible for screen readers > and the full python language is all its own and not part of any of the C > languages, so that might be out, but I don't know if that's true for pygame > as well. So, my options seem to be C++ if its still supported since > Microsoft came out with the C#.net, which is the other option. I also would > like the games to speak for themselves, if possible and that seems to > require some version and code for the Sappy TTS voices. > Thanks to all: > Chastity > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > -- I am not stupid. I just do dumb things! Theodore Jonson website: Nickhelms.net sip phone number: 360-526-6509 twitter: Nickster919 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] another game programming question
Chastity, Being a C++ developer I will perhaps not surprisingly, recommend C++. I have heard that C# has some major drawbacks, though Thomas could probably tell you better than myself about that part as he has been using .net but is now switching to C++. However I can tell you that C++ is definitely a good language to work with if you want to write advanced games, and it is also compatible with I should think literally every platform that exists as it compiles directly to assembly. As for Sapi speech, you would need to download the Sapi 5.1 SDK from Microsoft and learn from that, and probably some online tutorials also. Personally I am not a big fan of it for games, I use sound effects and prerecorded speech exclusively. Sapi has its advantages such as when reading unpredictable things, a user list in an online game is a good example, but for your average game you don't really need it. Do keep in mind that this is only my personal opinion and a lot of the other developers may or may not agree with me, but I feel that Sapi ruins a lot of the atmosphere in a game by sounding the way it does. Speech synthesizers are getting better every year but they're still nowhere near an actor. If you wish to start learning C++, I'd recommend visiting www.cplusplus.com. It is an excellent resource both for tutorials and reference material. Then, once you get the hang of the basics check out www.gamedeve.net, which offers a boatload of resources for the novis as well as the pro game developer. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: "Chastity MORSE" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:50 PM Subject: [Audyssey] another game programming question Okay, where can I find a good tutorial for the pygame language that will let me create something simple to start with? Will pygame transfer between windows mac platforms or do I need to make two sets of code for each platform? Which game types will this support: card games, board games and such? Also for more complicated games similar to SOD, MOTA, and Q9, will C#.net work or should I go with C++? I'm looking to try some sort of shooter adventure game in the future once I get the hang of game coding. Will either or both of the C languages work for both Windows and the Mac? How do I incorporate the Sappy TTS into games or is that sort of built in? If not, where can I find the code for sappy voices so that the game speaks? I read that full Python isn't transferable, but so does that mean that pygame isn't either? So, I'm just guessing here, but then it might be good to stick with C++ or C#.net instead of any version of python and stay away from java. Sorry, this email might be a bit confusing to people. I want to try something simpole first like a card, matching, board game or simple chase game. Then, I want to move up to something more complex with enemies and levels, weapons, and randomness so the game plays different each time you start it, that part would be similar to MOTA or Entoomed I guess. I want to find the code and no, I don't mind learning code of most any type as long as the code has some sort of explanation for what it does or where you might put each code. One more thing, can I just start learning code or is there something else I should start with first? Any good links for helpful tutorials and things will be appreciated. No, I'm not looking at java as it seems it isn't very accessible for screen readers and the full python language is all its own and not part of any of the C languages, so that might be out, but I don't know if that's true for pygame as well. So, my options seem to be C++ if its still supported since Microsoft came out with the C#.net, which is the other option. I also would like the games to speak for themselves, if possible and that seems to require some version and code for the Sappy TTS voices. Thanks to all: Chastity --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.108/2565 - Release Date: 12/14/09 19:40:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and r
