Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 07:18:14 -0500 (EST) Henri Yandell wrote: it would be far more effective to ensure that the announcements are made to the right lists, that the resources which are important now (java.net, apachenews.org, serverside.com) receive the news and that users know which announcement lists they should subscribe to. Unconvinced. None of those resources are good at supplying historical news; apachenews has the common blog problem of a calendar-view being a poor historical index, java.net seems to have no history and theserverside.com uses a linked-list style system to get old news. The last two also have a high noise to signal level for Jakarta info. As far as apachenews.org is concerned, I can try to create new templates for it. e.g. http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_index.html http://www.apachenews.org/archives/2004_12_index.html You folks can post release news (Alpha/Beta/R.C./FINAL versions) and anything news-worthy upon the apache software foundation related (including jakarta, apache-xml,apache-ws, apache-web-server etc.) projects/products to [EMAIL PROTECTED] By the way: Neither Apache Cocoon nor Apache Forrest was not originated from Jakarta Project AFAIK. (However, they're important because POI, Tapestry and HiveMind are currently using Apache Forrest for building their web sites if I remember correctly.) Personally, I think it that the history of Jakarta Project (e.g. Apache James moved from Jakarta into TopLevelProject) should appear somewhere in jakarta.a.o. with the definition of Jakarta Related (Personally, I love the concept of Jakarta FAMILY -- [1] -- would this concept impose anything mislead upon the users/devs?). Sincerely, -- Tetsuya Kitahata [EMAIL PROTECTED] [1] - Jakarta FAMILY = Jakarta PROJECT + Apache Ant + Apache Struts + Apache Geronimo + Apache Gump + Apache Maven + #Apache Avalon# + Apache James + Apache Excalibur + Apache Log4J (in LoggingServices) + Apache OJB/Torque (in DB) + Apache Jetspeed/Pluto (in Portals) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 07:18:14 -0500 (EST) Henri Yandell wrote: it would be far more effective to ensure that the announcements are made to the right lists, that the resources which are important now (java.net, apachenews.org, serverside.com) receive the news and that users know which announcement lists they should subscribe to. Unconvinced. None of those resources are good at supplying historical news; apachenews has the common blog problem of a calendar-view being a poor historical index, java.net seems to have no history and theserverside.com uses a linked-list style system to get old news. The last two also have a high noise to signal level for Jakarta info. As far as apachenews.org is concerned, I can try to create new templates for it. My target would be a page for a category which showed date breakdown into months which then listed the blog entries. Jakarta should be linking to: apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta.html but that should have a calendar breakdown instead of a list of all news ever. Plus we'd have to look at a way to upload old news I think. e.g. http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_index.html http://www.apachenews.org/archives/2004_12_index.html Rather, http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_2004_12_index.html You folks can post release news (Alpha/Beta/R.C./FINAL versions) and anything news-worthy upon the apache software foundation related (including jakarta, apache-xml,apache-ws, apache-web-server etc.) projects/products to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yep, the bit I do like is that it's hooked to email :) By the way: Neither Apache Cocoon nor Apache Forrest was not originated from Jakarta Project AFAIK. (However, they're important because POI, Tapestry and HiveMind are currently using Apache Forrest for building their web sites if I remember correctly.) Doh :) Will correct this. Personally, I think it that the history of Jakarta Project (e.g. There should be a front page link of 'Jakarta History' probably. Explain what has changed etc. I'll add that to the site-wiki plan. Apache James moved from Jakarta into TopLevelProject) should appear somewhere in jakarta.a.o. with the definition of Jakarta Related (Personally, I love the concept of Jakarta FAMILY -- [1] -- would this concept impose anything mislead upon the users/devs?). I'm pushing a bit more for [EMAIL PROTECTED] rather than just Jakarta Family. Even though Geronimo didn't come from Jakarta, it had a lot of community share. A year before it would have been in Jakarta. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Henri Yandell wrote: e.g. http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_index.html http://www.apachenews.org/archives/2004_12_index.html Rather, http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_2004_12_index.html O.K. Makes sense. See here: http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_2004_12_index.html Sincerely, -- Tetsuya Kitahata [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: e.g. http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_index.html http://www.apachenews.org/archives/2004_12_index.html Rather, http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_2004_12_index.html O.K. Makes sense. See here: http://www.apachenews.org/archives/cat_apache_jakarta_2004_12_index.html Yup, looks good. Where should the 2004/12 link go? Same for some of the others. All the [INDEX]s for one. Thinking about it, you've probably just not got around to them yet :) Now the only question is what we would link to. Best would be if there was a cat_apache_jakarta_this_month_index.html or something. ie) On the Jakarta site I just want to link to 'latest news for Jakarta', and not worry about which month I'm pointing to. Sound doable? Is that MoveableType btw, or something else? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On 29 Dec 2004, at 20:44, Henri Yandell wrote: snip 4) Various parts of Resources struck out. I think this was all covered in previous emails. I think www.apache.org covers these issues now and we don't have to. FWIW some of the content (and the stuff you moved) is covered. unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed. IMHO if (in the future) these things should be documented at the foundation level, it'll be easier in the long run to bite the bullet: decide what content is suitable for the new jakarta site and then make an effort to move everything else to more appropriate places before it's removed. - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On 29 Dec 2004, at 16:10, Henri Yandell wrote: I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the 3-columns (though not the lf or anything). Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine. Any views? if we're moving to this format, then i'd suggest getting rid of the news section. http://www.apachenews.org/ does this much better than us. we're not even getting syndicating on stuff like java.net anymore so i'm now really sure it's worth the effort. - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote: On 29 Dec 2004, at 16:10, Henri Yandell wrote: I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the 3-columns (though not the lf or anything). Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine. Any views? if we're moving to this format, then i'd suggest getting rid of the news section. http://www.apachenews.org/ does this much better than us. we're not even getting syndicating on stuff like java.net anymore so i'm now really sure it's worth the effort. Even our own release news? I see us just focusing on our own news; xxx moves to TLP, yyy moves out of Commons, 10.4 of Foo released etc. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote: On 29 Dec 2004, at 20:44, Henri Yandell wrote: snip 4) Various parts of Resources struck out. I think this was all covered in previous emails. I think www.apache.org covers these issues now and we don't have to. FWIW some of the content (and the stuff you moved) is covered. unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed. http://wiki.apache.org/old/ Which bits in particular? On the mock-up I'm suggesting we kill: Our Mission (Repeat of the front page) Vendor Support (List of 13 companies - surprised no one is against this removal) Reference Library (This page is just plain wrong, we require no 6 book reading list. Could move bits to Project Guidelines/CVS page) Website Maintenance (Wiki? Just the CVS version?) Apache on the JSPA (Geir will be making a www.apache.org JCP page) Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as such afaik) Translation links (See other thread) The Legal bit ended up just going to the bottom of the page. The only page that's been killed so far is guides.html (http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/guides.xml?hideattic=0rev=1.15view=auto) I can dump its info into the Wiki so we can splice out the non-repeating bits. IMHO if (in the future) these things should be documented at the foundation level, it'll be easier in the long run to bite the bullet: decide what content is suitable for the new jakarta site and then make an effort to move everything else to more appropriate places before it's removed. Yup, I'm an aggressive deleter and need checks to make sure I don't go too far. I don't think I have yet (editor.html and ide*.html still exist for example :) ). Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On 1 Jan 2005, at 11:45, Henri Yandell wrote: On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote: On 29 Dec 2004, at 16:10, Henri Yandell wrote: I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the 3-columns (though not the lf or anything). Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine. Any views? if we're moving to this format, then i'd suggest getting rid of the news section. http://www.apachenews.org/ does this much better than us. we're not even getting syndicating on stuff like java.net anymore so i'm now really sure it's worth the effort. Even our own release news? ditch the whole lot :) not only is it no longer pleasing to the eye (in those three columns) but it also ineffective... I see us just focusing on our own news; xxx moves to TLP, yyy moves out of Commons, 10.4 of Foo released etc. jakarta isn't the important resource it used to be for news. our place has been taken. people no longer come to read our news. it would be far more effective to ensure that the announcements are made to the right lists, that the resources which are important now (java.net, apachenews.org, serverside.com) receive the news and that users know which announcement lists they should subscribe to. - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On 1 Jan 2005, at 11:54, Henri Yandell wrote: On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote: On 29 Dec 2004, at 20:44, Henri Yandell wrote: snip 4) Various parts of Resources struck out. I think this was all covered in previous emails. I think www.apache.org covers these issues now and we don't have to. FWIW some of the content (and the stuff you moved) is covered. unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed. http://wiki.apache.org/old/ Which bits in particular? release manager stuff. i need to pull out and reorganize the information then submit some patches to infrastructure. On the mock-up I'm suggesting we kill: Our Mission (Repeat of the front page) Vendor Support (List of 13 companies - surprised no one is against this removal) i don't think anyone's released :) it's been a PITA for a while and may be better on the wiki. maybe it'd be better to get a board/members view on this. Reference Library (This page is just plain wrong, we require no 6 book reading list. Could move bits to Project Guidelines/CVS page) this needs rewriting for foundation new committer material Website Maintenance (Wiki? Just the CVS version?) this will need rewriting anyway (if we're moving from anakia) Apache on the JSPA (Geir will be making a www.apache.org JCP page) this is actually a quite important bit of history. if possible, i'd like to suggest that we move this up to the foundation level as a placeholder and put in a redirect. probably should be discussed with geir. Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as such afaik) i'd suggest checking about this one since some of these acknowledgments may well have been promised. if these are all covered at the foundation level then redirection would be the best idea. Translation links (See other thread) The Legal bit ended up just going to the bottom of the page. The only page that's been killed so far is guides.html (http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/ guides.xml?hideattic=0rev=1.15view=auto) bit funny, that document. i have a vague recollection that it was an unfinished project from the heroic era... I can dump its info into the Wiki so we can splice out the non-repeating bits. that sounds like a very good plan (it's probably start a few different worthwhile pages there) - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote: On 1 Jan 2005, at 11:45, Henri Yandell wrote: On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote: On 29 Dec 2004, at 16:10, Henri Yandell wrote: I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the 3-columns (though not the lf or anything). Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine. Any views? if we're moving to this format, then i'd suggest getting rid of the news section. http://www.apachenews.org/ does this much better than us. we're not even getting syndicating on stuff like java.net anymore so i'm now really sure it's worth the effort. Even our own release news? ditch the whole lot :) not only is it no longer pleasing to the eye (in those three columns) but it also ineffective... I see us just focusing on our own news; xxx moves to TLP, yyy moves out of Commons, 10.4 of Foo released etc. jakarta isn't the important resource it used to be for news. our place has been taken. people no longer come to read our news. it would be far more effective to ensure that the announcements are made to the right lists, that the resources which are important now (java.net, apachenews.org, serverside.com) receive the news and that users know which announcement lists they should subscribe to. Unconvinced. None of those resources are good at supplying historical news; apachenews has the common blog problem of a calendar-view being a poor historical index, java.net seems to have no history and theserverside.com uses a linked-list style system to get old news. The last two also have a high noise to signal level for Jakarta info. The only good source for Apache news is the mail-archive for the announcement lists, but there's a bizarre plethora of those, which is another item on my to-investiage list. Do we need jakarta-announcements, why do other TLPs not all have it, why do I get announcements over community@ etc. I definitely think we should dump the elsewhere news, and the news.html page needs to dump the top two paragraphs as unnecessary. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote: On 1 Jan 2005, at 11:54, Henri Yandell wrote: On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote: On 29 Dec 2004, at 20:44, Henri Yandell wrote: snip 4) Various parts of Resources struck out. I think this was all covered in previous emails. I think www.apache.org covers these issues now and we don't have to. FWIW some of the content (and the stuff you moved) is covered. unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed. http://wiki.apache.org/old/ Which bits in particular? release manager stuff. i need to pull out and reorganize the information then submit some patches to infrastructure. Sounds good. I'm happy for it to be in Jakarta for the time being too, it just needs organizing. The guides.html had a small bit about release management that you might want to check against. Apache on the JSPA (Geir will be making a www.apache.org JCP page) this is actually a quite important bit of history. if possible, i'd like to suggest that we move this up to the foundation level as a placeholder and put in a redirect. probably should be discussed with geir. Yup, already talked with him about it. I'll start a list of redirects to add/come up with. There's actually a second JCP page hidden in Jakarta that I'm expecting him to take too. If he's not ready at the time I'm ready on the 3-tier, I'll just keep the JSPA bit and keep hassling him. Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as such afaik) i'd suggest checking about this one since some of these acknowledgments may well have been promised. if these are all covered at the foundation level then redirection would be the best idea. Above.Net and Hyperreal no longer actually provide support (I think, will check). Sun's support is a) JCP thing, b) Tomcat and other RI specific. IBM+CollabNet just seem to employ various ASF people and I've no clue who Clear Ink are. The only page that's been killed so far is guides.html (http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/ guides.xml?hideattic=0rev=1.15view=auto) bit funny, that document. i have a vague recollection that it was an unfinished project from the heroic era... I can dump its info into the Wiki so we can splice out the non-repeating bits. that sounds like a very good plan (it's probably start a few different worthwhile pages there) Easy enough. Sometime this weekend. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as such afaik) Turn over all of this to the PRC, and let them handle it on an ASF-wide basis. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed. As noted by Henri, the old Wiki was moved, not removed. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On 1 Jan 2005, at 15:36, Noel J. Bergman wrote: unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed. As noted by Henri, the old Wiki was moved, not removed. good. effectively is still lost as far as links are concerned and the material needs rewriting for the foundation site but it's easier if the information still exists. - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On 1 Jan 2005, at 12:31, Henri Yandell wrote: On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote: On 1 Jan 2005, at 11:54, Henri Yandell wrote: On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote: On 29 Dec 2004, at 20:44, Henri Yandell wrote: snip 4) Various parts of Resources struck out. I think this was all covered in previous emails. I think www.apache.org covers these issues now and we don't have to. FWIW some of the content (and the stuff you moved) is covered. unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed. http://wiki.apache.org/old/ Which bits in particular? release manager stuff. i need to pull out and reorganize the information then submit some patches to infrastructure. Sounds good. I'm happy for it to be in Jakarta for the time being too, it just needs organizing. The guides.html had a small bit about release management that you might want to check against. the release stuff needs to go into the foundation stuff somewhere infrastructure related, not jakarta. (i talked to them a while ago about this.) - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
robert burrell donkin wrote: unfortunately, there's still a lot that's not and already quite a bit of information has been lost when the old wiki was removed. As noted by Henri, the old Wiki was moved, not removed. effectively is still lost as far as links are concerned Well, if people would stop using machine names in URLs, we could at least try to map them. For the Wiki it would have been pretty easy. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On 1 Jan 2005, at 15:36, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as such afaik) Turn over all of this to the PRC, and let them handle it on an ASF-wide basis. cool. what's the right to set about doing this? - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:01:27 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's my mockup proposal: http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html Changes: 3 column Strikethrough of links/pages I'd like to kill. Less news. Removal of Related section (aim is to make this a new page). Rewrite of the welcome message to hopefully say the same main thing, but use a lot less space. The aim would also be to switch entirely over to the XSL build version which seems to work fine and dump Anakia creation. Have you tried the XSL version of the binary and source pages? These are a bit different from other pages... Hen On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Henri Yandell wrote: I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the 3-columns (though not the lf or anything). Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine. Any views? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
robert burrell donkin asked: Noel J. Bergman wrote: Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as such afaik) Turn over all of this to the PRC, and let them handle it on an ASF-wide basis. cool. what's the right to set about doing this? Send e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On 1 Jan 2005, at 18:55, Noel J. Bergman wrote: robert burrell donkin asked: Noel J. Bergman wrote: Acknowledgements (Definitely ASF now, no-one supports 'jakarta' as such afaik) Turn over all of this to the PRC, and let them handle it on an ASF-wide basis. cool. what's the right to set about doing this? Send e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] thanks. i'll take a look at fixing this one. - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, sebb wrote: On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:01:27 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The aim would also be to switch entirely over to the XSL build version which seems to work fine and dump Anakia creation. Have you tried the XSL version of the binary and source pages? These are a bit different from other pages... The only difference that leapt out was that the tables had bad backgrounds, so I fixed that one. Thanks for point them out, I'll relook at them. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
snip Vendor Support (List of 13 companies - surprised no one is against this removal) Hen - There's a time for everything, I suppose. Speaking as one of the companies listed, we are quite pleased to be identified in a small way as part of the Jakarta community. However, I also understand the desire to clean up the site and simplify the message. The vendors page is a benefit to us and we would love to see it survive the site redesign, but we are happy to use, support, and recommend Jakarta whether our name shows up or not. FWIW I appreciate your leadership on this effort. Tom - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Hi Henri, Here's my mockup proposal: http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html 3) I struck out the Japanese link. Less bothered about this one, but it's no longer a translation of the Jakarta site in Japanese and seems to be more of a commercial site now. While you're at it, could we get a link to the Ja-Jakarta project (www.jajakarta.org) here? (I mean, in the Unaffiliated Links section.) Ja-Jakarta is a community in Japan devoted to internationalization and translation of Jakarta (and other ASF) projects. # correct me if I'm wrong, Ja-Jakarta folks Best regards, -- Shinobu -- Shinobu Kawai Yoshida [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Translations of Jakarta Was: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004, Shinobu Kawai wrote: Hi Henri, Here's my mockup proposal: http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html 3) I struck out the Japanese link. Less bothered about this one, but it's no longer a translation of the Jakarta site in Japanese and seems to be more of a commercial site now. While you're at it, could we get a link to the Ja-Jakarta project (www.jajakarta.org) here? (I mean, in the Unaffiliated Links section.) Ja-Jakarta is a community in Japan devoted to internationalization and translation of Jakarta (and other ASF) projects. # correct me if I'm wrong, Ja-Jakarta folks The translations are great ideas, but all three translations have issues: As a general issue, there's the question of which community is managing them. When we switch the Jakarta site to a lilac and puce look and feel, how will the translations respond. When we change the wording on the charter, or move Ant to TLP, how do they respond. Another issue common to all translations is a confusion between links about the translation site and links about Jakarta. Both Ja-Jakarta and Kr-Jakarta emulate a Jakarta lf but the Vendors link on Kr-Jakarta is for Kr-Jakarta people, and Acknowledgements/Who We Are on Ja-Jakarta are for Ja-Jakarta. This has lead to commercialisation. Ja-Jakarta pushes a Japanese Tomcat book, Terra-Intl pushes a different set of Jakarta books, I assume the vendor on the Kr-Jakarta page is linked to the authors. Particular issues: * I thought the Korean one was dead due to the copyright at the bottom saying 1999-2002. Looking closer I realise that they have the latest 2004 news. Their list of projects is old, Avalon, Ant, James, OJB, Struts all appear. Their news links are broken. * Ja-Jakarta has a definite confusion of Ja-Jakarta and Jakarta links (though I like that you have an English translation of the front page based on client). It has non-Jakarta subprojects listed (Ant, Log4j, Struts). The latest news is from May 2005. * Terra-Intl doesn't use the Jakarta lf, but it leads in with book advertising and the actual translations are hidden further down. It also only translates the front page and not the actual sub-projects. --- I believe the best solution is along the lines of Ja-Jakarta, but without trying to match the Jakarta lf so much. Unless you actually manage ja-jakarta as an umbrella of translation projects, it should probably say Translations on the front page and not Subprojects. Trademarks/branding also worry me a bit. Do we have to do anything to give you permission to use the Feather etc (Apache have been increasingly protecting it recently). If we stick with the current lf, it looks like an Apache site, but with no actual affiliation to Apache, so I suspect that someday I'll get a browbeating from the board. I love the idea of translation sites, but my worries mainly all come down to 'How do we maintain oversight?'. Thoughts? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
What I was thinking of for projects is something like: ++ |=Projects===| +--Subprojects---+ | * Alexandia| | * etc... | +--Graduated-+ | * Ant | | * etc... | ++ I have two concerns with this: It takes up more space and nothing else uses subheadings. It does put Graduated into context with a noun, though. My concern is that most users don't care about TLP vs Jakarta owned. So, does the terminology 'graduated' help? Why does the user care that some projects started at Jakarta, while other Java projects didn't? Unless and until Jakarta can become a Java portal @ Apache we have to deal with this though. It would seem to me that 'Related' was a looser word for these projects, and allows us to include other projects that didn't start at Jakarta. Also, I don't see any need to use a noun/subheadings here. For me, 'Related' on its own would be a sufficient defintion. Stephen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:26:15 -, Stephen Colebourne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I was thinking of for projects is something like: ++ |=Projects===| +--Subprojects---+ | * Alexandia| | * etc... | +--Graduated-+ | * Ant | | * etc... | ++ I have two concerns with this: It takes up more space and nothing else uses subheadings. It does put Graduated into context with a noun, though. My concern is that most users don't care about TLP vs Jakarta owned. So, does the terminology 'graduated' help? Why does the user care that some projects started at Jakarta, while other Java projects didn't? Because resource information for projects that have moved away are no longer found on the Jakarta site. For example, going to the Jakarta mailing lists page is not going to help you find information on the Struts mailing lists. I believe the distinction is important to helping users find what they're looking for. Unless and until Jakarta can become a Java portal @ Apache we have to deal with this though. It would seem to me that 'Related' was a looser word for these projects, and allows us to include other projects that didn't start at Jakarta. We (meaning Hen ;) just got done cleaning up a bunch of related links that didn't seem particularly coherent, so I'd be against putting it right back again. ;-) Also, I don't see any need to use a noun/subheadings here. For me, 'Related' on its own would be a sufficient defintion. I suggested Alumni but I don't think I got any takers. It seemed like the logical noun to replace Graduated to me. IMO, Related is too broad, and it was being misused before. -- Martin Cooper Stephen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004, Stephen Colebourne wrote: What I was thinking of for projects is something like: ++ |=Projects===| +--Subprojects---+ | * Alexandia| | * etc... | +--Graduated-+ | * Ant | | * etc... | ++ I have two concerns with this: It takes up more space and nothing else uses subheadings. It does put Graduated into context with a noun, though. My concern is that most users don't care about TLP vs Jakarta owned. So, does the terminology 'graduated' help? Why does the user care that some projects started at Jakarta, while other Java projects didn't? They care only in so far as they come to jakarta.apache.org looking for the old project etc. Unless and until Jakarta can become a Java portal @ Apache we have to deal with this though. It would seem to me that 'Related' was a looser word for these projects, and allows us to include other projects that didn't start at Jakarta. Related's problem is that it is [EMAIL PROTECTED] and we have to actively manage it as each new Java project is added to the ASF. Or at least the ones that are considered related to Jakarta for some definition of related. The 'News elsewhere' section has the same problem; what is the rationale for it and why is Jakarta the right place to find it. While I think there's room for a [EMAIL PROTECTED] site somewhere (though I'm not sure there's really community nowadays at that level), I'm trying to untangle it from the main part of the Jakarta site. Other ideas: * Kill the navbar link to non-Jakarta projects and have a central bit for recently promoted projects. Over 6 months or so, retire the link there. * Add a 'Other ASF Projects' at the bottom of our Subprojects list. If people can't find something, they click on that and goto the ASF Projects page. Also, I don't see any need to use a noun/subheadings here. For me, 'Related' on its own would be a sufficient defintion. The pedantic view is: Related to what?. Non-nouns need context. Related works okay as the context is Jakarta and that's the context of the page. Graduated is weaker as the context is 'From Jakarta' and that's not the page's context. As a sidenote, we should have a 'Incubating' section or something with Agila in it. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Another hour or so of walking the baby and thinking and I've responded somewhat to Stephen and others' suggestions: http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html You may have noticed that I've removed yet more. Keep pointing out issues and we'll be cleaner than Google :) I've cut back heavily on the Graduated concept, there's just a link to the ASF Projects in the prose now. The baby and I talked and we decided that a [EMAIL PROTECTED] page is a good idea, it just needs to be not be plastered over the front page and navigation. So I plan to come up with a page of all the Java projects at Apache; though I'm not sure how it would link into the front page. I've actually kept the Legal bit, but it's right at the bottom in the footer now. A lot of other pages on the right were cut for striking me as being useless. For example the Our Mission page didn't really say much that the rest of the Jakarta and Apache sites don't already say. I'd like to get 'Apache Website' out of reference and to a different location, I'm just not sure where. It's basically the equivalent of an up-directory. Thoughts? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3-column jakarta.apache.org?
I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the 3-columns (though not the lf or anything). Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine. Any views? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Here's my mockup proposal: http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html Changes: 3 column Strikethrough of links/pages I'd like to kill. Less news. Removal of Related section (aim is to make this a new page). Rewrite of the welcome message to hopefully say the same main thing, but use a lot less space. The aim would also be to switch entirely over to the XSL build version which seems to work fine and dump Anakia creation. Hen On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Henri Yandell wrote: I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the 3-columns (though not the lf or anything). Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine. Any views? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:01:27 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's my mockup proposal: http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html Changes: 3 column Strikethrough of links/pages I'd like to kill. Less news. Removal of Related section (aim is to make this a new page). Rewrite of the welcome message to hopefully say the same main thing, but use a lot less space. This looks OK. The one thing I would change, though, is to get rid of the indentation under the headings (which would probably necessitate a slightly larger gap between the columns). As it is now, with the indent, the center text - and especially the table - becomes a rather tall, skinny column in a default-sized browser window. The aim would also be to switch entirely over to the XSL build version which seems to work fine and dump Anakia creation. +1 -- Martin Cooper Hen On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Henri Yandell wrote: I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the 3-columns (though not the lf or anything). Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine. Any views? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html We might consider changing some of the wording if you are going to refer to projects growing up and leaving. We could refer to Jakarta as a federation of projects, some of which are under the oversight of the Jakarta PMC, and some of which are TLPs in their own right. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Noel J. Bergman wrote: http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html We might consider changing some of the wording if you are going to refer to projects growing up and leaving. We could refer to Jakarta as a federation of projects, some of which are under the oversight of the Jakarta PMC, and some of which are TLPs in their own right. I'm loathe to change the message that much simply because I don't think we all agree on what Jakarta is and I want to get the basics (clean/simpler site) done before worrying about whether Jakarta is a basic TLP, or if we are [EMAIL PROTECTED] still. Trying to keep somewhat of a focus :) Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Martin Cooper wrote: On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:01:27 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's my mockup proposal: http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html This looks OK. The one thing I would change, though, is to get rid of the indentation under the headings (which would probably necessitate a slightly larger gap between the columns). As it is now, with the indent, the center text - and especially the table - becomes a rather tall, skinny column in a default-sized browser window. Moving to CSS will make this easily solvable. Rather than using blockquote, we can use proper CSS margin indentation etc. I've uploaded a slightly modified version that removes the width from the columns (it was being set to 20,80 still) and adds in the css lines that www.apache.org has. I've also shortened the labels in the About Jakarta section. Some additional reasons for changes: 1) I've simplified the News. Firstly to reduce front page clutter and secondly because I think it's a poor use of our resources to try and manage the other news around Apache. 2) I've struck out the Korean link. Their site hasn't been updated in the last couple of years and so I don't think we're doing anybody a service by linking to it. 3) I struck out the Japanese link. Less bothered about this one, but it's no longer a translation of the Jakarta site in Japanese and seems to be more of a commercial site now. 4) Various parts of Resources struck out. I think this was all covered in previous emails. I think www.apache.org covers these issues now and we don't have to. So as a general theme: remove fluff, stop trying to be [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:01:27 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's my mockup proposal: http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html In case anyone wonders, I've dropped Martin Poeschl's 'In Memoriam' from the front page, but plan to have it at the top of the whoweare.html page. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Henri, Looks good. Big improvement, I think :). I especially like how the third column brings more information above the status bar. A few comments: 1) The first paragraph sounds more like it's describing the ASF than describing Jakarta. A suggestion: - The Jakarta Project offers a diverse set of open source Java solutions and is a part of [The Apache Software Foundation] (ASF). Like all ASF [projects] Jakarta encourages a collaborative, consensus-based development process under an [open software license]. - 2) The first sentence of the second paragraph seems awkward to me. It's not immediately apparent why that information is useful. If I don't know what a TLP is it doesn't really help me, and if I'm looking for a TLP that used to be part of Jakarta it doesn't tell me how to find it. Unfortunately I haven't been able to come up with a better wording. Hopefully someone else is feeling inspired :). 3) Graduated on the left needs to be in the context of a noun. Maybe swapping the left and right columns (leaving About on the left) and making the right column Projects with subheadings of Subprojects and Graduated? That might take up too much space, though. 4) Removing the margin from the ul that makes up the news would help spread that section out a bit. -James On Wed, 2004-12-29 at 14:01 -0500, Henri Yandell wrote: Here's my mockup proposal: http://www.apache.org/~bayard/mock-jakarta-frontpage.html Changes: 3 column Strikethrough of links/pages I'd like to kill. Less news. Removal of Related section (aim is to make this a new page). Rewrite of the welcome message to hopefully say the same main thing, but use a lot less space. The aim would also be to switch entirely over to the XSL build version which seems to work fine and dump Anakia creation. Hen On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Henri Yandell wrote: I'm a fan of the www.apache.org look and how it gives us a lot more usability in terms of available column space. I'd like to change Jakarta to the 3-columns (though not the lf or anything). Switching to 3-columns means less space in the center for content, however I also want to simplify the content so I think it will look fine. Any views? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, James Mason wrote: Henri, Looks good. Big improvement, I think :). I especially like how the third column brings more information above the status bar. A few comments: Thanks :) 1) The first paragraph sounds more like it's describing the ASF than describing Jakarta. A suggestion: - The Jakarta Project offers a diverse set of open source Java solutions and is a part of [The Apache Software Foundation] (ASF). Like all ASF [projects] Jakarta encourages a collaborative, consensus-based development process under an [open software license]. - It actually is meant to be describing the ASF :) To cut down on text, I threw away 'jakarta, like all ASF, encourages...' to the simpler 'ASF encourages'. It's just as true and uses less space. I'd like to dump 'for all its projects' to be honest, but didn't want to lose the link to the ASF Project page. It's tempting to chop the last 4 words and add a ASF link on the right, together with the other ASF ones, under a new heading of About Apache or something. 2) The first sentence of the second paragraph seems awkward to me. It's not immediately apparent why that information is useful. If I don't know what a TLP is it doesn't really help me, and if I'm looking for a TLP that used to be part of Jakarta it doesn't tell me how to find it. Unfortunately I haven't been able to come up with a better wording. Hopefully someone else is feeling inspired :). Two big parts I'm looking for in this paragraph. 1) Jakarta = umbrella project. I don't want to say umbrella as that's an odd metaphor to the uninitiated. 2) Definition of graduating, attempt at an explanation of why projects are no longer to be found in Jakarta (a common user confusion I think). The TLP acronym isn't highly important (at first I thought it was good to get it accross, but it's too much info). Linking to the bit above, I could dump the TLP acronym and make this the link to the ASF project page. 3) Graduated on the left needs to be in the context of a noun. Maybe swapping the left and right columns (leaving About on the left) and making the right column Projects with subheadings of Subprojects and Graduated? That might take up too much space, though. Gah! Much as I want to scoff at the suggestion for the pain it causes, I think you're right, to be correct it should be a noun. Putting the projects on the right was an option, but I think that consumers will mostly want to click through to a subproject, rather than any other link there and the LHS is the prime navigation spot. It also matches the www.apache.org approach, which is nice for the symmetry of a user clicking through and not having to adjust their navigation flow. Possibly I could change Graduated to Graduated Subprojects? Seems a bit long. 'Graduates' seems wrong. Looking for a good label here :) 4) Removing the margin from the ul that makes up the news would help spread that section out a bit. Yep. I'm going to hassle a few web designers I know on spacing issues once I've updated the XSL build to output this site. All their suggestions will involve CSS, so I'll need to have a CSS sheet by then I suspect. Thoughts? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:41:00 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, James Mason wrote: Henri, Looks good. Big improvement, I think :). I especially like how the third column brings more information above the status bar. A few comments: Thanks :) 1) The first paragraph sounds more like it's describing the ASF than describing Jakarta. A suggestion: - The Jakarta Project offers a diverse set of open source Java solutions and is a part of [The Apache Software Foundation] (ASF). Like all ASF [projects] Jakarta encourages a collaborative, consensus-based development process under an [open software license]. - It actually is meant to be describing the ASF :) To cut down on text, I threw away 'jakarta, like all ASF, encourages...' to the simpler 'ASF encourages'. It's just as true and uses less space. I'd like to dump 'for all its projects' to be honest, but didn't want to lose the link to the ASF Project page. It's tempting to chop the last 4 words and add a ASF link on the right, together with the other ASF ones, under a new heading of About Apache or something. 2) The first sentence of the second paragraph seems awkward to me. It's not immediately apparent why that information is useful. If I don't know what a TLP is it doesn't really help me, and if I'm looking for a TLP that used to be part of Jakarta it doesn't tell me how to find it. Unfortunately I haven't been able to come up with a better wording. Hopefully someone else is feeling inspired :). Two big parts I'm looking for in this paragraph. 1) Jakarta = umbrella project. I don't want to say umbrella as that's an odd metaphor to the uninitiated. 2) Definition of graduating, attempt at an explanation of why projects are no longer to be found in Jakarta (a common user confusion I think). The TLP acronym isn't highly important (at first I thought it was good to get it accross, but it's too much info). Linking to the bit above, I could dump the TLP acronym and make this the link to the ASF project page. 3) Graduated on the left needs to be in the context of a noun. Maybe swapping the left and right columns (leaving About on the left) and making the right column Projects with subheadings of Subprojects and Graduated? That might take up too much space, though. Gah! Much as I want to scoff at the suggestion for the pain it causes, I think you're right, to be correct it should be a noun. Putting the projects on the right was an option, but I think that consumers will mostly want to click through to a subproject, rather than any other link there and the LHS is the prime navigation spot. It also matches the www.apache.org approach, which is nice for the symmetry of a user clicking through and not having to adjust their navigation flow. Possibly I could change Graduated to Graduated Subprojects? Seems a bit long. 'Graduates' seems wrong. Looking for a good label here :) Alumni? -- Martin Cooper 4) Removing the margin from the ul that makes up the news would help spread that section out a bit. Yep. I'm going to hassle a few web designers I know on spacing issues once I've updated the XSL build to output this site. All their suggestions will involve CSS, so I'll need to have a CSS sheet by then I suspect. Thoughts? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 3-column jakarta.apache.org?
Comments below. On Wed, 2004-12-29 at 21:41 -0500, Henri Yandell wrote: On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, James Mason wrote: Henri, Looks good. Big improvement, I think :). I especially like how the third column brings more information above the status bar. A few comments: Thanks :) 1) The first paragraph sounds more like it's describing the ASF than describing Jakarta. A suggestion: - The Jakarta Project offers a diverse set of open source Java solutions and is a part of [The Apache Software Foundation] (ASF). Like all ASF [projects] Jakarta encourages a collaborative, consensus-based development process under an [open software license]. - It actually is meant to be describing the ASF :) To cut down on text, I threw away 'jakarta, like all ASF, encourages...' to the simpler 'ASF encourages'. It's just as true and uses less space. I'd like to dump 'for all its projects' to be honest, but didn't want to lose the link to the ASF Project page. It's tempting to chop the last 4 words and add a ASF link on the right, together with the other ASF ones, under a new heading of About Apache or something. How important is it to put the projects link right in text? I like the way it reads without the last four words, so if it works to put the link elsewhere I think it would be good. 2) The first sentence of the second paragraph seems awkward to me. It's not immediately apparent why that information is useful. If I don't know what a TLP is it doesn't really help me, and if I'm looking for a TLP that used to be part of Jakarta it doesn't tell me how to find it. Unfortunately I haven't been able to come up with a better wording. Hopefully someone else is feeling inspired :). Two big parts I'm looking for in this paragraph. 1) Jakarta = umbrella project. I don't want to say umbrella as that's an odd metaphor to the uninitiated. How about parent? 2) Definition of graduating, attempt at an explanation of why projects are no longer to be found in Jakarta (a common user confusion I think). The TLP acronym isn't highly important (at first I thought it was good to get it accross, but it's too much info). Linking to the bit above, I could dump the TLP acronym and make this the link to the ASF project page. Hmmm... How about Jakarta shepherds?? many [subprojects], many of which have grown and [graduated] into top level ASF [projects]. Some synonyms for shepherds: guides, oversees, supervises, watches over, is responsible for. I think it would be good to link to the list of graduated projects from the text. 3) Graduated on the left needs to be in the context of a noun. Maybe swapping the left and right columns (leaving About on the left) and making the right column Projects with subheadings of Subprojects and Graduated? That might take up too much space, though. Gah! Much as I want to scoff at the suggestion for the pain it causes, I think you're right, to be correct it should be a noun. Putting the projects on the right was an option, but I think that consumers will mostly want to click through to a subproject, rather than any other link there and the LHS is the prime navigation spot. It also matches the www.apache.org approach, which is nice for the symmetry of a user clicking through and not having to adjust their navigation flow. Looking at apache.org, how about moving the About Jakarta section to the right. This would parallel the Foundation section on apache.org. What I was thinking of for projects is something like: ++ |=Projects===| +--Subprojects---+ | * Alexandia| | * etc... | +--Graduated-+ | * Ant | | * etc... | ++ I have two concerns with this: It takes up more space and nothing else uses subheadings. It does put Graduated into context with a noun, though. Possibly I could change Graduated to Graduated Subprojects? Seems a bit long. 'Graduates' seems wrong. Looking for a good label here :) 4) Removing the margin from the ul that makes up the news would help spread that section out a bit. Yep. I'm going to hassle a few web designers I know on spacing issues once I've updated the XSL build to output this site. All their suggestions will involve CSS, so I'll need to have a CSS sheet by then I suspect. If you need a hand here, let me know. Part of my day job is web design. -James Thoughts? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
