RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

> My guess then is that you have not read down the page far enough then.  No
> demands required.

Wrong guess.
=;o)

I am noisy but not a committer in any Apache projects.
Just posted a few patches on a couple of projects.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 7:01 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
>
>
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >
> > I was not demanding karma, just stating what I thought were obstacles.
> >
> > Now I have some clues and it looks like I can help even without karma.
> > =:o)
>
> My guess then is that you have not read down the page far enough then.  No
> demands required.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Sam Ruby]

Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>
> I was not demanding karma, just stating what I thought were obstacles.
>
> Now I have some clues and it looks like I can help even without karma.
> =:o)

My guess then is that you have not read down the page far enough then.  No
demands required.

- Sam Ruby


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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

I was not demanding karma, just stating what I thought were obstacles.

Now I have some clues and it looks like I can help even without karma.
=:o)


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 11:54 AM
> 
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >
> > No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
> > =:o/
> >
> > But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of
> > minutes for someone who does know.
> 
> karma follows clue, i.e., get a clue, and you get karma.
> 
> A good place to start is by going to "http://jakarta.apache.org";, and
> clicking on "About this site".
> 
> One thing that a handful of us are painfully aware of... there are
> literally hundreds, if not thousands, of "couple of minute" tasks 
> that come
> up a week - granting someone karma, moderating spam from the 
> mailing lists,
> chasing down build breakages.
> 
> - Sam Ruby


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RE: crushed

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev 
> list and the 
> relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people 
> were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now 
> all is good over there. 

Keep in mind (maybe not Peter but other readers of this post) that:

 1) Both groups always had common long term objectives but disagreed on the
way to achieve them or had different short term targets;

 2) If there had been a strict imposition from above, TC3.3 could have been
forked and a lot of that group could have gone elsewhere. Maybe this
would have permanently destroyed many synergies between the 2 groups 
that were always there (like with the connectors) and others that are
now evolving.

In the process, maybe some TC3.3 ideas proved their worth to some TC4
guys, which means increased cross pollination.

In this case strict control would have prevented several positive things 
from happening.


Similar situation with the Logging APIs, just that this time on separate
projects:

 1) Now both groups are quite a bit incompatible and forcing a merge would
destroy or send away one of the projects;

 2) Still, some projects prefer Log4J and others LogKit;

 3) Each of these Logging libraries seems to have its advantages and 
different strong and week spots. I am quite sure of this since at the
company I work for we have been using LogKit and Log4J for different
projects and I have been doing some logging work with both;

 4) The need of other projects (e.g.: commons components) to use both is
already putting some pressure into cross pollination. With time, it 
can happen that:
  - They will finally be able to merge;
  - One of them will learn all the advantages from the other and 
become dominant.
Either way, positive cross pollination is bound to happen.

This is why I would prefer to have both projects around instead of just
forcing them to merge. Lets put some peer pressure on them without 
destroying them.

Many general strict rules - like forcing to merge what seems to be the 
same thing - would be very destructive in this kind of situation. 

Common sense must be applied (like: "no, you can not fork Tomcat in 
another project") on a case by case basis.

And yes, I am aware of how uncommon common sense seems to be but I still
believe there is enough of it around here.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:12 PM
> 
> 
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:02, Jeff Turner wrote:
> > I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
> > on design:
> >
> >   "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
> >   is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
> >   line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
> >   going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
> >   not like we know that B is our final destination."
> >
> >-- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398
> 
> Choice is fine and the more the better. However I would much 
> prefer that all 
> Xs were implemented by one project where X is whatever we are 
> talking about. 
> Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev 
> list and the 
> relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people 
> were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now 
> all is good 
> over there. 
> 
> Isn't that a better solution than having projects side by side 
> "competing"? 
> Sure it may be rocky for a bit but it is better for Apache in the 
> end (though 
> maybe less ego stroking for the individual developers).
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pete
> 
> -
> First, we shape our tools, thereafter, they shape us.
> -


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Re: crushed

[Peter Donald]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:02, Jeff Turner wrote:
> I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
> on design:
>
>   "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
>   is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
>   line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
>   going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
>   not like we know that B is our final destination."
>
>-- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398

Choice is fine and the more the better. However I would much prefer that all 
Xs were implemented by one project where X is whatever we are talking about. 
Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev list and the 
relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people 
were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now all is good 
over there. 

Isn't that a better solution than having projects side by side "competing"? 
Sure it may be rocky for a bit but it is better for Apache in the end (though 
maybe less ego stroking for the individual developers).

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

-
First, we shape our tools, thereafter, they shape us.
-

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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Sam Ruby]

Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>
> No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
> =:o/
>
> But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of
> minutes for someone who does know.

karma follows clue, i.e., get a clue, and you get karma.

A good place to start is by going to "http://jakarta.apache.org";, and
clicking on "About this site".

One thing that a handful of us are painfully aware of... there are
literally hundreds, if not thousands, of "couple of minute" tasks that come
up a week - granting someone karma, moderating spam from the mailing lists,
chasing down build breakages.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: crushed

[Sam Ruby]

Jeff Turner wrote:
>
> Incidentally, the other statement Craig made in that email sums it all
> up for me:
>
>> The point from Jon that I *do* dismiss is his feeling that there
>> should be one and only one implementation of any particular
>> functionality -- "one size fits all" is a very rare phenomenon in my
>> experience, and having some choice is helpful.
>
> I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' email
> on design:
>
>   "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
>   is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
>   line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
>   going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
>   not like we know that B is our final destination."
>
>   -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398

Excellent quotes.  It is my opinion that had this project been operating
with "singlemindedness and strict control" there never would be a
jakarta-velocity.  See:

   http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html

- Sam Ruby


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Re: crushed

[Sam Ruby]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> At the macro level you have to stand back a bit and let the
> secretary spend 30 cents too much on the paperclips.

+1

- Sam Ruby


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Re: crushed

[Sam Ruby]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>
> A good one that Sam worked on
> resolving fairly successfully is the one about Gump. Another issue which I
> see as a failure is the failure of projects to communicate with each other.

Thanks for the kind words.  If you take a moment and read the first
paragraph of text on , you will see that
it is my intent that what you see in Gump is my first installment towards
addressing the larger issue you describe in the second sentence described
above.  And there are a lot of people who can testify that it has sparked a
number of meaningful conversations between subprojects.

There have been numerous references in this mailing list to what form the
second installment is likely to take, many of which with URL references to
other discussions and mock ups.  If you care to participate or are merely
curious, take a look at
.

- Sam Ruby


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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

Well, I did learn how to change a Jakarta web page!
This time the theory, next time the patch!
=:o)

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 6:45 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
> 
> 
> on 1/7/02 9:05 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > No karma
> 
> Submit a patch.
> 
> >, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
> 
> RTFM
> 
> <http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jakarta-site2.html>
> 
> 
> Oh well, Geir did your work for you, so you don't learn anything.
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> 

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Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/7/02 9:05 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> No karma

Submit a patch.

>, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!

RTFM




Oh well, Geir did your work for you, so you don't learn anything.

-jon


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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

COOL!
=:o)

> -Original Message-
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 6:03 AM
> 
> 
> On 1/8/02 12:05 AM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
> > =:o/
> > 
> > But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of
> > minutes for someone who does know.
> 
> Done.
> 
> > 


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Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/8/02 12:05 AM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
> =:o/
> 
> But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of
> minutes for someone who does know.

Done.

> 
> 
> Have fun,
> Paulo
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 5:05 AM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
>> 
>> 
>> on 1/7/02 7:59 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> What about just a version of this form:
>>>  http://search.apache.org/
>>> 
>>> or a link to it???
>>> 
>>> Take a look at my previous posting (the "crushed" thread) for more
>>> details. It can be made (hidden fields I love you) to search any
>>> sub-domain just by changing its HTML.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Have fun,
>>> Paulo Gaspar
>> 
>> Ok Paulo, do it. Make it happen.
>> 
>> -jon
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> 

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"Now what do we do?"


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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
=:o/

But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of 
minutes for someone who does know.


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 5:05 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
> 
> 
> on 1/7/02 7:59 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > What about just a version of this form:
> >  http://search.apache.org/
> > 
> > or a link to it???
> > 
> > Take a look at my previous posting (the "crushed" thread) for more
> > details. It can be made (hidden fields I love you) to search any
> > sub-domain just by changing its HTML.
> > 
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo Gaspar
> 
> Ok Paulo, do it. Make it happen.
> 
> -jon


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Re: crushed

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/7/02 11:20 PM, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> on 1/7/02 8:10 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> I agree with Sam here - you have to buy into the Gump nags and understand
>> the value, or you are going to think it's an intrusive fussyness, which it
>> is, actually :)
> 
> Or you could think of it this way...
> 
> Part of the 'privilege' of being able to host your project on Jakarta is the
> requirement of needing to accept our way of doing things. Of course being
> dictators about everything isn't going to work...things like forcing
> everyone to use OSX and a certain IDE definitely won't fly...
> 
> However, when there are areas where we know damn well that something is the
> right way to do things (such as using the ASF license, using Gump's nag
> features, having javadocs targets and being consistent in using documented
> code formatting), that is part of being part of the Jakarta Community and
> the group of people who 'get it'. It is part of being in a larger community
> collective and sharing some similar values and development principles.
> 

Yep - but you have to bring these things to the community by consensus.  For
example, new things were learned as Gump evolved. (And are still being
learned today)

Now, you added the nag.pl, but that was by fiat, wasn't it?  Not in a bad
way - you saw something and took the initiative - but others didn't
understand right away.

After a while, it became accepted, even cherished.

(Who am I kidding - Gump is never cherished - that just made for good copy.
It's a pain in the neck, annoying, written in ugly pointy bracket stuff, and
insanely valuable :)

> That is what should make us different than Sourceforge...

Fine, but it comes from consensus, doesn't it?  I can't suppose that I can
tell you about that - you were/are my 'mentor' in most of this - but I hope
that you can step back and at least consider that the failure is our own if
we can't rally around a set of common mores.

Why are we failing?  I am suspicious of our size :)

> -jon
> 
> 
> --
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-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Be a giant.  Take giant steps.  Do giant things...


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Re: crushed

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/7/02 8:10 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I agree with Sam here - you have to buy into the Gump nags and understand
> the value, or you are going to think it's an intrusive fussyness, which it
> is, actually :)

Or you could think of it this way...

Part of the 'privilege' of being able to host your project on Jakarta is the
requirement of needing to accept our way of doing things. Of course being
dictators about everything isn't going to work...things like forcing
everyone to use OSX and a certain IDE definitely won't fly...

However, when there are areas where we know damn well that something is the
right way to do things (such as using the ASF license, using Gump's nag
features, having javadocs targets and being consistent in using documented
code formatting), that is part of being part of the Jakarta Community and
the group of people who 'get it'. It is part of being in a larger community
collective and sharing some similar values and development principles.

That is what should make us different than Sourceforge...

-jon


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Re: crushed

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/7/02 11:03 PM, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> on 1/7/02 7:27 PM, "Tim Vernum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> If the project won't deal with gump nags, and can't keep their
>> builds from breaking then they probably won't fit into Jakarta.
> 
> Bingo. Great point.
> 
> However, forcing a project to have gump nags is not something Sam is willing
> to dictate. Having a project that 'fits into Jakarta' is also something no
> one is willing to dictate (except me of course...but that means nothing
> anymore...)...
> 
> -jon
> 

I agree with Sam here - you have to buy into the Gump nags and understand
the value, or you are going to think it's an intrusive fussyness, which it
is, actually :)

I think most people buy into it and get it.

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the
freeness of speech." - Benjamin Franklin



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Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/7/02 7:59 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What about just a version of this form:
>  http://search.apache.org/
> 
> or a link to it???
> 
> Take a look at my previous posting (the "crushed" thread) for more
> details. It can be made (hidden fields I love you) to search any
> sub-domain just by changing its HTML.
> 
> 
> Have fun,
> Paulo Gaspar

Ok Paulo, do it. Make it happen.

-jon


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Re: crushed

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/7/02 7:27 PM, "Tim Vernum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If the project won't deal with gump nags, and can't keep their
> builds from breaking then they probably won't fit into Jakarta.

Bingo. Great point.

However, forcing a project to have gump nags is not something Sam is willing
to dictate. Having a project that 'fits into Jakarta' is also something no
one is willing to dictate (except me of course...but that means nothing
anymore...)...

-jon


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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

What about just a version of this form:
   http://search.apache.org/

or a link to it???

Take a look at my previous posting (the "crushed" thread) for more
details. It can be made (hidden fields I love you) to search any
sub-domain just by changing its HTML.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 3:31 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
>
>
> on 1/7/02 6:26 PM, "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The idea of a Jakarta code search engine has arisen a few times. Any
> > lucene or alexandria developers care to comment? Cocoon docs are already
> > searchable apparently, though this functionality isn't online.
> >
> > Alternatively, a simple link to Google (restricted by
> > site:jakarta.apache.org) from the front page might help.
> >
> > --Jeff
>
> Good suggestion! Maybe setting up LXR would also be a cool idea.
>
> Not sure how much it will help since people have a hard enough
> time figuring
> out how to format code and send mail to the right mailing list... :-)
>
> That said, I'm sure there is a lot of stuff to learn from Mozilla.org as
> well. They seem pretty successful and have much larger numbers
> than us. :-)
>
> -jon
>
>
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RE: crushed

[Paulo Gaspar]

> That is because I don't see a way to fix the problems and I'm not sure I
> have the energy to actually go through with it anymore.

Did you ever run or walk a Marathon? Or just 20 Km?
Or swim 10Km?

It is one step (or stroke) after the other or you get too tired just by
thinking about it.


> I haven't seen you give any positive initiative's either. People say I
> contribute a lot around here. Why does it always have to be me?

It does not have to be you.

And I do not have to give a new idea since:
 - Sam's idea looks good enough for checking code style and nagging the
   offenders;

 - Stefano work on Forrest might improve a lot the site. It will take a
   couple of months for xml.apache to talk jakarta into it, have a couple
   of flame wars, adapting tools and layouts, etc... 
   But the first step is taken and we all just need a bit of good will;
   
 - Someone already suggested (sorry, forgot whom!) having a search engine
   to help on finding information in Apache.
   Obvious solution, placing at the Jakarta home page:
 - A REALLY VISIBLE LINK TO http://search.apache.org/
 - A simplified version of the form in that URL.
   (It is simple to shorten that form so that it only searches in
Jakarta, or xml.apache, or Jakarta + xml.apache, etc.
   )

   Even if this did not exist (and considering the problems of putting 
   Lucene on an Apache BSD server) we could even use Google!
   It looks like they are keeping their indexes on Apache up to date 
   (the new home page is indexed) and they have a free solution:
  http://www.google.com/services/free.html

  
So, I think there are already a few solutions for the most immediate 
problems.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
   

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 3:00 AM
> 
> on 1/7/02 5:10 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I see you crying a lot over this but no POSITIVE initiative.
> 
> That is because I don't see a way to fix the problems and I'm not sure I
> have the energy to actually go through with it anymore.
> 
> I haven't seen you give any positive initiative's either. People say I
> contribute a lot around here. Why does it always have to be me?
> 
> -jon


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RE: crushed

[Tim Vernum]

> Perhaps like Commons, there should be an open proving ground 
> for those wishing to make steps into the Apache world.

Probably not what you had in mind, but adding the project to
the gump run would be a start.

All sorts of monitoring goes on then, including prompting from 
the gump-er (ie Sam) to fix things that break.
I know Sam (et al) have + will provide patches to other projects
to bring their build systems up to scratch.

It's a start at having the external community work with the
Jakarta community(/ies), which seems to be the primary concern.

If the project won't deal with gump nags, and can't keep their
builds from breaking then they probably won't fit into Jakarta.


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Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/7/02 6:26 PM, "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The idea of a Jakarta code search engine has arisen a few times. Any
> lucene or alexandria developers care to comment? Cocoon docs are already
> searchable apparently, though this functionality isn't online.
> 
> Alternatively, a simple link to Google (restricted by
> site:jakarta.apache.org) from the front page might help.
> 
> --Jeff

Good suggestion! Maybe setting up LXR would also be a cool idea.

Not sure how much it will help since people have a hard enough time figuring
out how to format code and send mail to the right mailing list... :-)

That said, I'm sure there is a lot of stuff to learn from Mozilla.org as
well. They seem pretty successful and have much larger numbers than us. :-)

-jon


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Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Jeff Turner]

On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 05:59:51PM -0800, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 1/7/02 5:10 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I see you crying a lot over this but no POSITIVE initiative.
> 
> That is because I don't see a way to fix the problems and I'm not sure I
> have the energy to actually go through with it anymore.
> 
> I haven't seen you give any positive initiative's either.

The idea of a Jakarta code search engine has arisen a few times. Any
lucene or alexandria developers care to comment? Cocoon docs are already
searchable apparently, though this functionality isn't online.

Alternatively, a simple link to Google (restricted by
site:jakarta.apache.org) from the front page might help.


--Jeff

> 
> -jon
> 
> 

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Re: crushed

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/7/02 5:10 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I see you crying a lot over this but no POSITIVE initiative.

That is because I don't see a way to fix the problems and I'm not sure I
have the energy to actually go through with it anymore.

I haven't seen you give any positive initiative's either. People say I
contribute a lot around here. Why does it always have to be me?

-jon


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Re: crushed

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/7/02 5:41 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> When I was much younger I used to go on BBSes and post "Which is better
> Amiga or IBM?" and "Why not just use a Mac?" to see the fires rage.  As
> I grew up I found more productive ways to spend my time.  Code
> formatting is subjective.  Your way is wrong and mine is right etc etc.
> There are no conclusions to these arguments and have you perfected the
> things that can be perfected to such a degree that you're ready to
> tackle this one? 

 I'm not talking about source code formatting, I'm talking about the issues
surrounding making decisions, documenting those decisions and actually
enforcing those decisions. The source code formatting is just a simple
example of the failure. There are more. A good one that Sam worked on
resolving fairly successfully is the one about Gump. Another issue which I
see as a failure is the failure of projects to communicate with each other.

> I would suggest there be one and only one stead-fast dead on code
> standard.  All public methods must provide javadoc siting the purpose of
> the method.  Get there first then worry about "_variables".

THAT ISN'T THE ISSUE.

-jon


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Re: crushed

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> That isn't entirely what I'm asking for (re: singlemindedness and
strict
> control). 

> Part of what I'm asking for is very simple: documentation of the
process and
> then following that process.

> Remember that all of this started with something as simple as source
code
> formatting. We can't even get that right or even anything close to
agreement
> on it.

> -jon

When I was much younger I used to go on BBSes and post "Which is better
Amiga or IBM?" and "Why not just use a Mac?" to see the fires rage.  As
I grew up I found more productive ways to spend my time.  Code
formatting is subjective.  Your way is wrong and mine is right etc etc. 
There are no conclusions to these arguments and have you perfected the
things that can be perfected to such a degree that you're ready to
tackle this one?  

I would suggest there be one and only one stead-fast dead on code
standard.  All public methods must provide javadoc siting the purpose of
the method.  Get there first then worry about "_variables".

-Andy


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Re: crushed

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> I know it's hard to tell from the convoluted way this thread have gone
> back and forth, but the comment above was not intended to have 
*anything*
> to do with POI specifically, or the proposal to move POI to Apache. 
It
> was a response to Ceki's concern about how to keep Jakarta from being
just
> a SourceForge-type code repository.

> I'm trying to digest the discussions about POI, but they keep getting
> buried in the discussions about Jakarta's future ... I haven't made up
> my mind yet on this specific proposal.

I can understand.

Okay then I owe you my sincerest apologies.  Thank you for everything
you do.  If there are any questions that I can answer, please feel free
to ask here, personally or on the POI lists.

-Andy

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Re: crushed

[Andrew C. Oliver]

 at how Scarab is run, we are pretty damn successful at this
>point with regards to building and managing a strong developer
>community
>around it. And it isn't even a Jakarta project. I personally see the
>model I
>have used for Scarab as pretty close to right way to run projects.

So use it.  To be honest I don't see your comparison.  Jakarta pulls
together several Scarab sized or bigger projects.  Its easier at the
project level.  I don't disagree with everything you're saying and I
think many people here don't.  Its your methods.  Secondly you're not
being part of a solution you're adding to the "problem" if not creating
it.  At the macro level you have to stand back a bit and let the
secretary spend 30 cents too much on the paperclips.  After all its the
bigger picture.  This is a forum where not everyone will ever agree with
you.  You have to let them do things the wrong way.  Express
disagreement but stick to the facts and back them up.  It looks to me
like you're mostly standing in the center of the room screeming and
wondering why people are staring at you with their fingers in their
ears.

> Not that it is a contest, but I can guarantee I feel more crushed than
> you.

That my friend is a personality difference.  In perspective I had a lot
of crappy things happen to me (and my country) last year.  While Jakarta
and really the greater open source movement is important to me but
nothing, less my family, is so important to me that I could ever be as
crushed as you are Jon even over the most tragic events I can imagine
(less my family).  (And we're nowhere near that)  What I mean is you are
how you choose to be.  I hope you come around.

> -jon

-Andy


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Re: crushed

[Jeff Turner]

On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 03:44:50PM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Guys,
> 
> This whole experience has become a bit disheartening.  Craig McClanahan
> who is like an idol of mine said this:
> 
> "
> We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
> that only want the "name recognition" value of being under Apache, and
> don't have a development community compatible with Apache's style.
> That's much more important than whether it's server-side versus
> client-side, or in one repository versus another.
> "
> 
> Seemingly directed at POI.

I don't see what the problem is. Read it carefully.. for that statement
to apply, POI would have to:

 - _only_ want the name recognition.
 - have a development community incompatible with Apache's style

Do either of those statements apply to POI?

Incidentally, the other statement Craig made in that email sums it all
up for me:

>> The point from Jon that I *do* dismiss is his feeling that there
>> should be one and only one implementation of any particular
>> functionality -- "one size fits all" is a very rare phenomenon in my
>> experience, and having some choice is helpful.

I have _never_ seen a user complain about having too many choices. Not
even between notorious duplications like Tomcat 3/4 and Crimson/Xerces.

I _have_ seen users want comparisons, and better docs to help them make
the choice. 

Choice is good. Documented choice is infinitely better :)

I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
on design:

  "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
  is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
  line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
  going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
  not like we know that B is our final destination."

   -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398


--Jeff

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RE: crushed

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Part of what I'm asking for is very simple: documentation of the
> process and then following that process.
>
> Remember that all of this started with something as simple as source code
> formatting. We can't even get that right or even anything close
> to agreement on it.

Jon,

I see you crying a lot over this but no POSITIVE initiative.

Sam already suggested performing an automated check and NAG the trespassers.
Do you see a better alternative?

I believe you already slapped me around a few times for complaining instead
of acting. Your turn to act.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:05 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: crushed
>
>
> on 1/7/02 3:51 PM, "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
> > is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
> > line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
> > going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
> > not like we know that B is our final destination."
> >
> >  -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398
>
> That isn't entirely what I'm asking for (re: singlemindedness and strict
> control).
>
> Part of what I'm asking for is very simple: documentation of the
> process and
> then following that process.
>
> Remember that all of this started with something as simple as source code
> formatting. We can't even get that right or even anything close
> to agreement
> on it.
>
> -jon


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RE: crushed

[Paulo Gaspar]

> I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
> on design:
> 
>   "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
>   is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
>   line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
>   going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
>   not like we know that B is our final destination."
> 
>-- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398


UAU!
Another guy that saw the light!!!
=:oD

Have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Jeff Turner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:51 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: crushed
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 03:44:50PM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > Guys,
> > 
> > This whole experience has become a bit disheartening.  Craig McClanahan
> > who is like an idol of mine said this:
> > 
> > "
> > We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
> > that only want the "name recognition" value of being under Apache, and
> > don't have a development community compatible with Apache's style.
> > That's much more important than whether it's server-side versus
> > client-side, or in one repository versus another.
> > "
> > 
> > Seemingly directed at POI.
> 
> I don't see what the problem is. Read it carefully.. for that statement
> to apply, POI would have to:
> 
>  - _only_ want the name recognition.
>  - have a development community incompatible with Apache's style
> 
> Do either of those statements apply to POI?
> 
> Incidentally, the other statement Craig made in that email sums it all
> up for me:
> 
> >> The point from Jon that I *do* dismiss is his feeling that there
> >> should be one and only one implementation of any particular
> >> functionality -- "one size fits all" is a very rare phenomenon in my
> >> experience, and having some choice is helpful.
> 
> I have _never_ seen a user complain about having too many choices. Not
> even between notorious duplications like Tomcat 3/4 and Crimson/Xerces.
> 
> I _have_ seen users want comparisons, and better docs to help them make
> the choice. 
> 
> Choice is good. Documented choice is infinitely better :)
> 
> I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
> on design:
> 
>   "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
>   is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
>   line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
>   going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
>   not like we know that B is our final destination."
> 
>-- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398
> 
> 
> --Jeff
> 
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Re: crushed

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/7/02 3:51 PM, "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
> is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
> line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
> going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
> not like we know that B is our final destination."
> 
>  -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398

That isn't entirely what I'm asking for (re: singlemindedness and strict
control). 

Part of what I'm asking for is very simple: documentation of the process and
then following that process.

Remember that all of this started with something as simple as source code
formatting. We can't even get that right or even anything close to agreement
on it.

-jon


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Re: crushed

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On 7 Jan 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

>
> This whole experience has become a bit disheartening.  Craig McClanahan
> who is like an idol of mine said this:
>
> "
> We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
> that
> only want the "name recognition" value of being under Apache, and don't
> have a development community compatible with Apache's style.  That's
> much
> more important than whether it's server-side versus client-side, or in
> one
> repository versus another.
> "
>
> Seemingly directed at POI.

I know it's hard to tell from the convoluted way this thread have gone
back and forth, but the comment above was not intended to have *anything*
to do with POI specifically, or the proposal to move POI to Apache.  It
was a response to Ceki's concern about how to keep Jakarta from being just
a SourceForge-type code repository.

I'm trying to digest the discussions about POI, but they keep getting
buried in the discussions about Jakarta's future ... I haven't made up
my mind yet on this specific proposal.

Craig


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Re: crushed

[Jeff Turner]

On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 03:44:50PM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Guys,
> 
> This whole experience has become a bit disheartening.  Craig McClanahan
> who is like an idol of mine said this:
> 
> "
> We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
> that only want the "name recognition" value of being under Apache, and
> don't have a development community compatible with Apache's style.
> That's much more important than whether it's server-side versus
> client-side, or in one repository versus another.
> "
> 
> Seemingly directed at POI.

I don't see what the problem is. Read it carefully.. for that statement
to apply, POI would have to:

 - _only_ want the name recognition.
 - have a development community incompatible with Apache's style

Do either of those statements apply to POI?

Incidentally, the other statement Craig made in that email sums it all
up for me:

>> The point from Jon that I *do* dismiss is his feeling that there
>> should be one and only one implementation of any particular
>> functionality -- "one size fits all" is a very rare phenomenon in my
>> experience, and having some choice is helpful.

I have _never_ seen a user complain about having too many choices. Not
even between notorious duplications like Tomcat 3/4 and Crimson/Xerces.

I _have_ seen users want comparisons, and better docs to help them make
the choice. 

Choice is good. Documented choice is infinitely better :)

I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
on design:

  "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
  is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
  line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
  going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
  not like we know that B is our final destination."

   -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398


--Jeff

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Re: crushed

[Micael Padraig Og mac Grene]

At 03:44 PM 1/7/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Guys,
>
>This whole experience has become a bit disheartening.  Craig McClanahan
>who is like an idol of mine said this:


What I like most about Craig is that he is concise and accurate.

- micael


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Re: crushed

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/7/02 2:20 PM, "Paul Hammant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> We should be careful turning away projects as they may end up as GPL
> .

Now that is the funniest reason I have heard for accepting projects here!
:-) Thanks. I needed a good laugh.

-jon


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Re: crushed

[Paul Hammant]

Andrew,

Don't be disheartened.  Regroup and come back later.  (ref : Robert the 
Bruce and the Spider).

1) Build a bigger community that is active behind POI,  
2) Add value to the project by making sure it can run inside as many 
contexts as possible,  
3) possibly depend on more Apache projects,
4) move snippets of code out of your project, if possible, to Apache 
projects (or sub projects) if (3) is an inexact hit.  i.e. donation.

*Opinion*

We should be careful turning away projects as they may end up as GPL 
.  Perhaps like Commons, there should be an open proving ground 
for those wishing to make steps into the Apache world.  In there rules 
could be limited to "thou shalt not advertise this as an Apache 
project".  Maybe some mentoring - "depend less on the file system", "how 
about a remote management console", "what about the XYZ pattern".  If 
mentoring is too heavy, maybe a three monthly review.

Regards,

- Paul H



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Re: crushed

[Ted Husted]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> If you look at how Scarab is run, we are pretty damn successful at this
> point with regards to building and managing a strong developer community
> around it. And it isn't even a Jakarta project. I personally see the model I
> have used for Scarab as pretty close to right way to run projects.


I don't suppose there is any potential for tigris.org becoming an ASF
Project. 

Which is to say, could we create a Tigris-like ASF Project, with Jon at
the helm?


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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Re: crushed

[Andrew C. Oliver]

>Have many developers does scarab have, 10? Jakarta has around 200
>committers plus ten 
>times that many developers. At 200'000 USD per committer that's a
>budget of 40'000'000 

Whoa dude.  I am SO doing something wrong.  200,000?

>USD a year. I'd estimate the budget of an equivalently sized software
>company at 
>100'000'000 USD year. You think that's easy to manage? Sam's vision
>differs from yours 
>and mine. That does not mean he is wrong and that you are right. 
>Anyway, what is 
>exactly your vision? and how would you go about getting there? (How can
>you force 
>people to cooperate more?)

exactly.  Show leadership.  Go get your own tugboat and pull the ship to
shore.  Don't stand on the water yelling "Why won't you #$! fetch the
ship".

>How many places do you know where people keep arguing and arguing and
>still stick 
>around? The only other place I know is my family. 

+1

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http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
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Re: crushed

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 13:11 07.01.2002 -0800, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>on 1/7/02 12:44 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I think many folks on
>> the list aren't listening to each other let alone to someone from the
>> outer circle.  
>
>That is my complaint about not just this list, but the entire project. We
>have people like Ted and Craig who are perfectly happy just sitting in their
>bubble sub-projects and doing whatever they want and you have people like
>myself who see a larger picture of what Jakarta is (or could be) and want to
>see people work together more and create less duplication of exactly the
>same functionality. Yes, that statement is based on their previous postings.
>
>> Its funny I kind of agree with some (but not all) of the points that Jon
>> guy makes but he seems to want to make them in such a way that they are
>> divisive instead of providing the leadership Stefano praises him for.
>> Leadership is taking the boat and sailing it and inviting others to come
>> along not sitting in the back complaining about the heading or
>> proclaiming "its just going to sink and the hell with you all maybe I'll
>> quit".  I hope he sees this and becomes the guy Stefano says he is.
>
>The problem is that I feel like the boat has already capsized, sank and
>rotted on the ocean floor. At this point, I'm pretty disheartened about
>Jakarta...more so than I have felt in over 6 years of being here. I have no
>other way to express my unhappiness than to express it by saying it. I feel
>like I can't change things anymore and about the only person who could is
>Sam, but I am not seeing him take the reigns in such a way to rebuild the
>ship...only to try to a lifeboat together over the next few years...
>
>If you look at how Scarab is run, we are pretty damn successful at this
>point with regards to building and managing a strong developer community
>around it. And it isn't even a Jakarta project. I personally see the model I
>have used for Scarab as pretty close to right way to run projects.
>
>Not that it is a contest, but I can guarantee I feel more crushed than you.

Have many developers does scarab have, 10? Jakarta has around 200 committers plus ten 
times that many developers. At 200'000 USD per committer that's a budget of 40'000'000 
USD a year. I'd estimate the budget of an equivalently sized software company at 
100'000'000 USD year. You think that's easy to manage? Sam's vision differs from yours 
and mine. That does not mean he is wrong and that you are right.  Anyway, what is 
exactly your vision? and how would you go about getting there? (How can you force 
people to cooperate more?)

How many places do you know where people keep arguing and arguing and still stick 
around? The only other place I know is my family. 

--

Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch



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Re: crushed

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/7/02 12:44 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think many folks on
> the list aren't listening to each other let alone to someone from the
> outer circle.  

That is my complaint about not just this list, but the entire project. We
have people like Ted and Craig who are perfectly happy just sitting in their
bubble sub-projects and doing whatever they want and you have people like
myself who see a larger picture of what Jakarta is (or could be) and want to
see people work together more and create less duplication of exactly the
same functionality. Yes, that statement is based on their previous postings.

> Its funny I kind of agree with some (but not all) of the points that Jon
> guy makes but he seems to want to make them in such a way that they are
> divisive instead of providing the leadership Stefano praises him for.
> Leadership is taking the boat and sailing it and inviting others to come
> along not sitting in the back complaining about the heading or
> proclaiming "its just going to sink and the hell with you all maybe I'll
> quit".  I hope he sees this and becomes the guy Stefano says he is.

The problem is that I feel like the boat has already capsized, sank and
rotted on the ocean floor. At this point, I'm pretty disheartened about
Jakarta...more so than I have felt in over 6 years of being here. I have no
other way to express my unhappiness than to express it by saying it. I feel
like I can't change things anymore and about the only person who could is
Sam, but I am not seeing him take the reigns in such a way to rebuild the
ship...only to try to a lifeboat together over the next few years...

If you look at how Scarab is run, we are pretty damn successful at this
point with regards to building and managing a strong developer community
around it. And it isn't even a Jakarta project. I personally see the model I
have used for Scarab as pretty close to right way to run projects.

Not that it is a contest, but I can guarantee I feel more crushed than you.

-jon


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Re: crushed

[Ted Husted]

+1 

"Andrew C. Oliver" wrote:
> I mean lets go ahead with the proposal (final draft in the making)

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crushed

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Guys,

This whole experience has become a bit disheartening.  Craig McClanahan
who is like an idol of mine said this:

"
We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
that
only want the "name recognition" value of being under Apache, and don't
have a development community compatible with Apache's style.  That's
much
more important than whether it's server-side versus client-side, or in
one
repository versus another.
"

Seemingly directed at POI.  I DO have to admit, I like the idea of name
recognition, anyone who says they don't is a liar and I have a mortgage
to pay, a family and live in what is currently the economic black hole
of my country (if Marc hasn't gotten a job yet, being twice as smart as
I am, then I'm screwed), but my most selfish motivations are more in the
area of I never want to use IIS again if possible or even look at
Windows NT outside of my VMWARE (hopefully one day bochs or plex86)
POI-testing window.  

Marc said this best to me in gaim:
"the number one way we get paid for our open source work is by the
recognition we get. what's wrong with wanting more? but ... that's not
all we're in this for ... the opportunity to do good work that is of
benefit to the Community ... the opportunity to publicly tweak Bill
Gates' nose ... we have noble aims here
"

What is sad is Tomcat is part of why I started this project.  If I can
do my part to make it so there is no reason NOT to use Tomcat or other
Apache projects that I've used so much (or could use if they had POI),
thats what I'm going to do.  If I can't do it from the inside I'll do it
from the outside, I guess I'll feel a bit hurt, but I can deal with
that.  I don't speak for Marc, but I know he feels the same way.

I was fine until people started attacking our motives (without any
basis).  And even then I was even still mostly okay until Craig did (who
I'd still probably ask for his autograph or something if I met him) and
I never even saw him in the discussion. 

I started this project while on contract at a local chemical company
thinking damn I hate helping Actuate make another 10 grand.  (I had no
problem paying Tidestone $300 for the same product once even out of my
own pocket). I thought, I'd far rather use Tomcat then WebSphere (no
offense Sam) and I'd far rather use Cocoon then Actuate. I started this
project originally with the idea of donating the whole thing to Cocoon,
but I kept finding that there were more layers and the puzzle became
just as interesting and as important as the "business case" (because I'm
100% geek thats even my gaim id: javageek02) and to encapsulate it
properly Marc and I developed pieces that didn't directly fit in to the
Cocoon puzzle but had great uses elsewhere.  Plus there was always a
"lets make the project expandable so others can use the pieces to thier
aims"  (a guy from a western European national/international airline
used POIFS on some file format I'd never heard of).  When Stefano said
"lets take the APIs to Jakarta" I stumbled first then I was like "he's
right" it goes right along with what we had in mind when designing the
APIs the only parts that make sense in Cocoon are the Serializers and
Generators.

Regardless of what happens POI will be a success.  When the guy from
Actuate wrote me a "good luck and eat your heart out" message it hit me
"this is for real". 

If POI does make it I'm not sure I should monitor this (general@jakarta)
list too closely.  Its very negative.  The project lists are far more
positive and Apache was always ground up and not top down (doesn't the
name even mean a-patch-y server?).  Lately this list seems to be the
place for anyone with a gripe to yell "The sky is falling", you can say
"Hey here's ideas on how to shore it up a bit" but I think many folks on
the list aren't listening to each other let alone to someone from the
outer circle.  

Its funny I kind of agree with some (but not all) of the points that Jon
guy makes but he seems to want to make them in such a way that they are
divisive instead of providing the leadership Stefano praises him for. 
Leadership is taking the boat and sailing it and inviting others to come
along not sitting in the back complaining about the heading or
proclaiming "its just going to sink and the hell with you all maybe I'll
quit".  I hope he sees this and becomes the guy Stefano says he is.

Stefano, I'm not sure we really made any progress with the request for
comment.  Less folks asked questions so much as made statements w/o even
looking at the project (which I don't think is what we meant by request
for comment) and I get the feeling half of those who did didn't even
LOOK at the answers (even the ones that didn't bounce because TW NC's
Road Runner SMTP server sucks - and you can quote me on that).  I mean
lets go ahead with the proposal (final draft in the making), but I can't
imagine it going well.  Especially with the peculiar talk that our
little project could destroy the apache community singleha