Re: [gentoo-dev] [looking-for-man-power] Packaging RedHat/Fedora tools and libs

[Pacho Ramos]

El vie, 09-04-2010 a las 21:41 +0200, Fabio Erculiani escribió:
> 
> On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Zac Medico  wrote:
> > On 04/09/2010 04:34 AM, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> >> They are available in the "sabayon" overlay. Is there anybody
> >> interested in helping me out for the integration and, perhaps,
> >> merge-into-Portage part?
> >
> > That sounds interesting. I was planning to add public apis for the
> > packagekit portage backend to use soon, and I guess those apis
> > should also be useful for an anaconda portage backend.
> 
> [semi-OT]
> Since I am (together with volkmar) one of the PK Portage backend
> maintainers, let me know once you have interesting APIs implemented
> for that. The backend itself would also require testing and some
> profiling sessions to spot annoying speed issues.
> [/semi-OT]

I didn't know a packagekit portage backend was being prepared :-O

Thanks a lot to all the people involved =)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[Ben de Groot]

On 10 April 2010 06:10, William Hubbs  wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 01:19:32AM +0200, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> On 3 April 2010 20:56, George Prowse  wrote:
>> > Does mediawiki have captcha ability?
>>
>> Yes, there are a number of solutions for that.
>
>  I realize I am very late on this thread, but please do not go here
>  unless you provide an audio solution as well.  Otherwise, you will
>  affectively lock blind users out of the wiki, just as they are
>  currentlylocked out of the forums.
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/284362

Thank you for bringing that up! We should indeed make sure of accessibility.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[Dror Levin]

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 07:10, William Hubbs  wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 01:19:32AM +0200, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> On 3 April 2010 20:56, George Prowse  wrote:
>> > Does mediawiki have captcha ability?
>>
>> Yes, there are a number of solutions for that.
>
>  I realize I am very late on this thread, but please do not go here
>  unless you provide an audio solution as well.  Otherwise, you will
>  affectively lock blind users out of the wiki, just as they are
>  currentlylocked out of the forums.
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/284362
We are planning to use ReCaptcha which, as far as I known, provides
audio. Please correct me if I'm wrong or if that isn't enough.

Dror Levin

Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[George Prowse]

On 10/04/2010 05:10, William Hubbs wrote:

On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 01:19:32AM +0200, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 3 April 2010 20:56, George Prowse  wrote:

Does mediawiki have captcha ability?


Yes, there are a number of solutions for that.


  I realize I am very late on this thread, but please do not go here
  unless you provide an audio solution as well.  Otherwise, you will
  affectively lock blind users out of the wiki, just as they are
  currentlylocked out of the forums.
http://bugs.gentoo.org/284362

Thanks,

while we are on the subject, can tomk or whoever is the head forums 
techie these days fix up an accessibility suitable system for the 
forums? It has been six months since that bug was opened.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Council meeting 19 April 2010

[Petteri Räty]

On 04/09/2010 05:51 PM, Dror Levin wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 21:05, Denis Dupeyron  wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Ben de Groot  wrote:
>>> So all I'm asking is to do your job and make decisions on issues that
>>> affect all of Gentoo. The issues I brought up are wider than a single
>>> individual project.
>>
>> And almost 100% of the time this needs to run through a GLEP, which is
>> the case here. Then the council will do all the things you've pasted
>> from GLEP 39
> 
> I thought the council was a body that should be capable of action, not
> merely one that gives a stamp of approval for stuff other people do.
> Was I wrong?
> 

It's capable of action if the members want to take it.

> Reading all your manifestos from the elections shows you all had
> things you wanted to do, things you wanted to change (git migration,
> forming a group of experts to discuss technical issues, QA
> propagation, just to name a few). Where did all that go to? If all the
> council is currently able to do is get everybody involved in
> bureaucracy (e.g. writing GLEPs for centralizing documentation instead
> of putting a page full of links) just so it could meet once a month to
> decide on bugzilla resolutions, then something is wrong.
> 

Let's see my manifesto:
- EAPIs: council is not the blocker
- Meetings: there will be a web application most likely in GSoC

> All council members not only volunteered for that position, but also
> had other people voting for them. Didn't you do that so you could have
> a larger influence? So you could make Gentoo better? How do you plan
> to achieve that if you just wait for other people to do it? I don't
> see why there is such strong opposition by your side to actually do
> something, after all, that's what you're there for.
> 

I said in my manifesto that Gentoo is not my first priority so you get
what you vote for :)

> 
> Ben raised some very painful issues which hurt Gentoo daily but are
> not being addressed for a long time. The way I see it, the council's
> job is to lead Gentoo, and that includes things that individual
> members may not find interesting. These are global issues which are
> under the council's responsibility. Gentoo's best interest should be
> in mind, not personal interests, and so the council should strive to
> achieve all those things so that Gentoo may benefit from it. That's
> what leadership is, and that's what your job is.
>

Many of the points Ben raised are doable by any single developer who
wants to do the work. Just show up with the code/patches.

> 
> Let's take redesigning the homepage as an example. Our website has the
> same design since at least 2002, and to users it looks dead. This is
> seriously hurting Gentoo, and its inability to fix the situation has
> become a laughing stock. Clearly, Gentoo as a whole suffers and it's
> the council's responsibility to address this issue. Now, I'm not
> saying that council members should sit around all day playing with
> CSS, but this issue should be one of their top priorities. Maybe ask
> for users to help, reward a volunteer to do it with funds from the
> foundation, heck maybe even pay some company to do it, but just do
> something, even though you may not think dealing with this is
> interesting, but a response like "if you want it then work on it and
> make it happen" is unacceptable.
> 

Just petition the trustees to spend money on it. I guess Debian is dying
too then:
http://web.archive.org/web/20020124014701/http://www.debian.org/

Regards,
Petteri



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[gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Petteri Räty]

As people seem to want the council to take action I offer to take
action. As it's impossible for me to do everything myself I offer to act
as a project manager/owner for people willing to donate their time to
whatever I see worthy for Gentoo as whole like the web page redesign.
Basically you tell me how many hours you have and I'll give you stuff to
work on. It might not be glorious at times like cleaning up a piece of
documentation but why not spend an hour a week on something that
benefits the project? If people are interested, I'll work out the details.

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Markos Chandras]

On Saturday 10 April 2010 16:53:48 Petteri Räty wrote:
> As people seem to want the council to take action I offer to take
> action. As it's impossible for me to do everything myself I offer to act
> as a project manager/owner for people willing to donate their time to
> whatever I see worthy for Gentoo as whole like the web page redesign.
> Basically you tell me how many hours you have and I'll give you stuff to
> work on. It might not be glorious at times like cleaning up a piece of
> documentation but why not spend an hour a week on something that
> benefits the project? If people are interested, I'll work out the details.
> 
> Regards,
> Petteri
That's not a good reaction from your side. Independent projects can handle the 
incoming manpower themselves. 

The whole point behind the web page redevelopment is that none is showing to 
users or developers a clear way to get involved with it. Who is resposible for 
the webpage? How can somebody get involved? etc. I can't event answer these 
questions myself being a developer for more than a year. 
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Vincent-Xavier JUMEL]

Le samedi 10 avril 2010 15:53:48, Petteri Räty a écrit :
> As people seem to want the council to take action I offer to take
> action. As it's impossible for me to do everything myself I offer to act
> as a project manager/owner for people willing to donate their time to
> whatever I see worthy for Gentoo as whole like the web page redesign.
> Basically you tell me how many hours you have and I'll give you stuff to
> work on. It might not be glorious at times like cleaning up a piece of
> documentation but why not spend an hour a week on something that
> benefits the project? If people are interested, I'll work out the details.
> 
Since I'm quite new to this list, I'll start by a quick presentation.

I'm a french math teacher who loves computer science and Free Software. I've 
discovered Gentoo circa 2004 at school and since then it perfectly matches my 
needs and way of thinking.

I'm writing some personal ebuilds that I've never took time to clean up and 
upload to sunrise since it works for me. You may find a sympa ebuild at my 
personal repo[1]

I'm not sure I've enough time to involve myself as a Gentoo developer (even if 
a maintain my own sympa ebuild and other) but I want to help Gentoo project.

I could easily donate some time, but I don't know where to begin, so I'm glad 
of your offer to direct me to something useful.

Cheers

[1] : http://redmine.thetys-retz.net/projects/overlay

P.S. Sorry, this web page is still in French as my signature
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Petteri Räty]

On 04/10/2010 05:00 PM, Markos Chandras wrote:
> On Saturday 10 April 2010 16:53:48 Petteri Räty wrote:
>> As people seem to want the council to take action I offer to take
>> action. As it's impossible for me to do everything myself I offer to act
>> as a project manager/owner for people willing to donate their time to
>> whatever I see worthy for Gentoo as whole like the web page redesign.
>> Basically you tell me how many hours you have and I'll give you stuff to
>> work on. It might not be glorious at times like cleaning up a piece of
>> documentation but why not spend an hour a week on something that
>> benefits the project? If people are interested, I'll work out the details.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Petteri
> That's not a good reaction from your side. Independent projects can handle 
> the 
> incoming manpower themselves. 
> 

There's a lot of small tedious tasks that won't get done without
something like this. I see remarks about our documentation being
scattered. Please suggest a better way to solve that then.

> The whole point behind the web page redevelopment is that none is showing to 
> users or developers a clear way to get involved with it. Who is resposible 
> for 
> the webpage? How can somebody get involved? etc. I can't event answer these 
> questions myself being a developer for more than a year. 

I thought I was offering to help people to get involved.

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Ben de Groot]

On 10 April 2010 15:53, Petteri Räty  wrote:
> As people seem to want the council to take action I offer to take
> action. As it's impossible for me to do everything myself I offer to act
> as a project manager/owner for people willing to donate their time to
> whatever I see worthy for Gentoo as whole

I am willing to follow real leaders, who inspire and lead by example,
in the words of Ann Marie E. McSwain, Assistant Professor at Lincoln
University, “leadership is about capacity: the capacity of leaders to
listen and observe, to use their expertise as a starting point to
encourage dialogue between all levels of decision-making, to establish
processes and transparency in decision-making, to articulate their own
values and visions clearly but not impose them. Leadership is about
setting and not just reacting to agendas, identifying problems, and
initiating change that makes for substantial improvement rather than
managing change.” (quoted from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership)

You've just shown a striking lack of such leadership.

No cheers this time,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Petteri Räty]

On 04/10/2010 05:38 PM, Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 10 April 2010 15:53, Petteri Räty  wrote:
>> As people seem to want the council to take action I offer to take
>> action. As it's impossible for me to do everything myself I offer to act
>> as a project manager/owner for people willing to donate their time to
>> whatever I see worthy for Gentoo as whole
> 
> I am willing to follow real leaders, who inspire and lead by example,
> in the words of Ann Marie E. McSwain, Assistant Professor at Lincoln
> University, “leadership is about capacity: the capacity of leaders to
> listen and observe, to use their expertise as a starting point to
> encourage dialogue between all levels of decision-making, to establish
> processes and transparency in decision-making, to articulate their own
> values and visions clearly but not impose them. Leadership is about
> setting and not just reacting to agendas, identifying problems, and
> initiating change that makes for substantial improvement rather than
> managing change.” (quoted from
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership)
> 
> You've just shown a striking lack of such leadership.
> 
> No cheers this time,

We can change the word to managed then. In Finnish there is only one
word for both btw.

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[William Hubbs]

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 03:06:57PM +0300, Dror Levin wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 07:10, William Hubbs  wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 01:19:32AM +0200, Ben de Groot wrote:
> >> On 3 April 2010 20:56, George Prowse  wrote:
> >> > Does mediawiki have captcha ability?
> >>
> >> Yes, there are a number of solutions for that.
> >
> > ??I realize I am very late on this thread, but please do not go here
> > ??unless you provide an audio solution as well. ??Otherwise, you will
> > ??affectively lock blind users out of the wiki, just as they are
> > ??currentlylocked out of the forums.
> > http://bugs.gentoo.org/284362
> We are planning to use ReCaptcha which, as far as I known, provides
> audio. Please correct me if I'm wrong or if that isn't enough.
 
 Yes, it does.  However, I would tend to question how practical their
 audio captcha is.  Go to www.captcha.net and try the demo a few times
 and see how much luck you have solving audio captchas from it.

--
William Hubbs
gentoo accessibility team lead
willi...@gentoo.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Council meeting 19 April 2010

[Petteri Räty]

I was asked on #gentoo-council to respond to this post so I will. It
should also be noted council members usually speak as individual members
instead of for the council as a whole.

On 04/07/2010 06:00 PM, Denis Dupeyron wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Ben de Groot  wrote:
>> 1. reconsider metadata changepolicies proposal
>> ==
> [...]
>> Can council please decide to honor
>> the wish from developers to implement this?
> 
> The council will be glad to vote on a GLEP when ready. From GLEP 1,
> GLEPs are the "primary mechanisms for proposing significant new
> features, for collecting community input on an issue, and for
> documenting the design decisions". So use them.
> 
> Also, you might want to check the log and summary of the last meeting
> to find out why the council may end up voting no to such a GLEP.
> 

This doesn't exclude council members themselves from working on such a
GLEP if they think it's needed.

>> 2. website redesign
>> ===
> [...]
>> Can council assure that a team will be assembled that can
>> effectively tackle this issue?
> 
> You want the council to aim their collective gun at volunteer
> developers and force them to assemble in a team and work on something
> they might not want to work on?
> 
> In other words, if you want it then work on it and make it happen.
> This is and has always been the Gentoo way.
> 

Council can't assure it will happen, they can only encourage and work
towards such a goal.

>> 3. manpower and recruitment issues
>> ==
>>
>> Another recurring theme is the lack of manpower in certain areas, the
>> recruitment bottleneck and the quizzes. There are some initiatives but
>> more decisive leadership is needed. Can council decide to actively
>> pursue solutions for these structural problems?
> 
> The only way to solve this is to address these issues where they are.
> That means joining the recruiters team and helping them with that.
> Another thing you might want to do is properly mentor recruits.
> Because one reason recruiting takes so long, and thus why there is a
> backlog, is (to put is simply) that mentors suck at mentoring.
> 

As said Council is not needed. Recruiters as a project can handle
improving it just fine. I think I have pinged gentoo-core quite a few
times to try get new people in, would it make a difference if I pinged
as a council representative instead of as the Recruiting lead? Good news
is that I have two people in training nowadays.

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[George Prowse]

On 10/04/2010 16:25, William Hubbs wrote:

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 03:06:57PM +0300, Dror Levin wrote:

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 07:10, William Hubbs  wrote:

On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 01:19:32AM +0200, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 3 April 2010 20:56, George Prowse  wrote:

Does mediawiki have captcha ability?


Yes, there are a number of solutions for that.


??I realize I am very late on this thread, but please do not go here
??unless you provide an audio solution as well. ??Otherwise, you will
??affectively lock blind users out of the wiki, just as they are
??currentlylocked out of the forums.
http://bugs.gentoo.org/284362

We are planning to use ReCaptcha which, as far as I known, provides
audio. Please correct me if I'm wrong or if that isn't enough.


  Yes, it does.  However, I would tend to question how practical their
  audio captcha is.  Go to www.captcha.net and try the demo a few times
  and see how much luck you have solving audio captchas from it.


Is there a better system?

Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[William Hubbs]

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 04:40:20PM +0100, George Prowse wrote:
> On 10/04/2010 16:25, William Hubbs wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 03:06:57PM +0300, Dror Levin wrote:
> >> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 07:10, William Hubbs  wrote:
> >>> On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 01:19:32AM +0200, Ben de Groot wrote:
>  On 3 April 2010 20:56, George Prowse  wrote:
> > Does mediawiki have captcha ability?
> 
>  Yes, there are a number of solutions for that.
> >>>
> >>> ??I realize I am very late on this thread, but please do not go here
> >>> ??unless you provide an audio solution as well. ??Otherwise, you will
> >>> ??affectively lock blind users out of the wiki, just as they are
> >>> ??currentlylocked out of the forums.
> >>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/284362
> >> We are planning to use ReCaptcha which, as far as I known, provides
> >> audio. Please correct me if I'm wrong or if that isn't enough.
> >
> >   Yes, it does.  However, I would tend to question how practical their
> >   audio captcha is.  Go to www.captcha.net and try the demo a few times
> >   and see how much luck you have solving audio captchas from it.
> >
> Is there a better system?
 
 The ideal captcha would not be visual at all.  For example, on another
 site I am involved with, which is not quite online yet, we are talking
 about implementing tseveral levels of captcha such as:

 - a math captcha (you will be asked to solve a simple math problem)
 - a word captcha (fill in the missing letters of a word)
 - a phrase captcha (complete the phrase)

Could something like one or more of these be possible?

--
William Hubbs
gentoo accessibility team lead
willi...@gentoo.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[Vincent Launchbury]

On 04/10/10 11:25, William Hubbs wrote:

Yes, it does.  However, I would tend to question how practical their
audio captcha is.  Go to www.captcha.net and try the demo a few
times and see how much luck you have solving audio captchas from it.


Just for reference, I tried 15 different sound clips and got 5 right. 9
were completely incomprehensible, 1 was fuzzy, and the other 5 were
quite clear.

I'd agree that accessibility is important, but if a better solution
doesn't end up working out, ReCaptcha should at least provide access for
blind users, albeit inefficiently.

[gentoo-dev] Re: [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[Duncan]

William Hubbs posted on Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:18:41 -0500 as excerpted:

> - a phrase captcha (complete the phrase)

The thing I've always read about these is that they tend to discriminate 
against those for whom the language isn't their native language.

Math problems are generally agreed to be reasonably universal, however, 
tho that can change if wording is chosen to try to defeat a machine 
solution (running into the language problem again).  Spelling captchas... 
tend to run into problems with folks that can't spell.  That's apparently 
a big enough problem a lot of sites try and reject spelling captchas.

Perhaps a mix such that users can try again with a different category, 
however...

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[René 'Necoro' Neumann]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Am 10.04.2010 20:11, schrieb Duncan:
> William Hubbs posted on Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:18:41 -0500 as excerpted:
> 
>> - a phrase captcha (complete the phrase)
> 
> The thing I've always read about these is that they tend to discriminate 
> against those for whom the language isn't their native language.
[...]
> Spelling captchas... 
> tend to run into problems with folks that can't spell.  That's apparently 
> a big enough problem a lot of sites try and reject spelling captchas.

Both points also apply to the audio captcha, as you have to a)
understand the word and b) from this infer the correct writing. Which
becomes even more difficult as English is a language, where the
spelling/pronounciation-relation is quite loose (plus you have
British/American spelling varieties).

- - René
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[Dale]

Vincent Launchbury wrote:

On 04/10/10 11:25, William Hubbs wrote:

Yes, it does.  However, I would tend to question how practical their
audio captcha is.  Go to www.captcha.net and try the demo a few
times and see how much luck you have solving audio captchas from it.


Just for reference, I tried 15 different sound clips and got 5 right. 9
were completely incomprehensible, 1 was fuzzy, and the other 5 were
quite clear.

I'd agree that accessibility is important, but if a better solution
doesn't end up working out, ReCaptcha should at least provide access for
blind users, albeit inefficiently.




Heck, I wear glasses but can see pretty good.  It is hard for me to get 
past the visual thing.  Most of the time when I see a captcha, I just 
say forget it and go elsewhere.  There is nothing worse than trying to 
help someone else and having to spend ten minutes to get past one of 
those things.  Write a 1 minute answer/solution and spend 10 minutes 
trying to answer the captcha.  It just isn't worth all that.


I have never seen the others where you have to complete a word or 
phrase.  I wouldn't even try those.


Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Denis Dupeyron]

Ben,

Petteri was proposing an idea. He is being creative and is trying to
help. The only way of knowing if his idea is good is to discuss it and
later try it if people are interested.

You, on the other hand, have lately been increasingly critical (which
is good) but not constructively. You obviously have a lot of energy
but at no point have you offered your contribution. You haven't
offered to help the teams you've been criticizing and you haven't
proposed any real idea (website redesign, recruiters). Also you're
criticizing without knowing what is happening when the information is
publicly available (you're asking for a discussion on the metadata
idea and it was a topic last month, the devrel issue is being tackled
and it started before your rant).

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 8:38 AM, Ben de Groot  wrote:
> I am willing to follow real leaders

Willing to follow? Wow, that's ballsy. Now I understand why you needed
to tell the world about it.

> who inspire and lead by example,

There are lots of good role models to follow in Gentoo. All those who
work their ass off trying to make this distribution better, and use
the mailing lists as a tool to share ideas but not for immature
political rantings.

> You've just shown a striking lack of such leadership.
>
> No cheers this time,

And you've shown a striking lack of respect for somebody who's been so
dedicated to Gentoo for more time than you've been a developer, and
without whom you wouldn't even be a developer as he was your
recruiter. This is so wrong.

Credibility is among these things which take a long and hard work to
build up and can completely blow up at any time. Don't waste yours.

Denis.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Ben de Groot]

On 10 April 2010 21:27, Denis Dupeyron  wrote:
> Ben,
>
> Petteri was proposing an idea. He is being creative

You call that creative? It seems you don't know what the word means.

> You, on the other hand, have lately been increasingly critical (which
> is good) but not constructively. You obviously have a lot of energy
> but at no point have you offered your contribution. You haven't
> offered to help the teams you've been criticizing and you haven't
> proposed any real idea (website redesign, recruiters).

I guess I was hallucinating that I started the wiki project, which has
been a popular request for as long as I can remember. I guess I
imagined I worked together with Markos to start the proxy-maintainer
project to improve visibility of that option to contribute. And I must
have been dreaming that I sent a mail about forming a team to review
and renew the recruitment process and curriculum. I must be mistaken
in thinking I have proposed to centralize all developer documentation
into one place. Oh, and forgive me for not publicly announcing that I
sent a mail to the dormant webteam about joining and offering my help.
And asking for leadership on issues that affect Gentoo on a wider
scale is not constructive?

Or maybe you are wrong about those things. Maybe you are not noticing
my contributions?

> Also you're
> criticizing without knowing what is happening when the information is
> publicly available (you're asking for a discussion on the metadata
> idea and it was a topic last month,

It is exactly because I know what council decided about the metadata
idea that I spoke up and asked for a reconsideration, giving some (in
my eyes) good arguments as to why you should. But I guess your reading
comprehension isn't that stellar either.

> the devrel issue is being tackled and it started before your rant).

To my knowledge there was no public announcement about that, other
than that we have another lead now.

> Credibility is among these things which take a long and hard work to
> build up and can completely blow up at any time.

Indeed. And you have now completely blown yours.

I am still hoping for a better Gentoo and volunteering to make that
happen. I hope you do too. So step up to the task and be a real
leader, which is what you were elected to do. Or, if you are unable or
unwilling to do so, step down and make room for somebody else who is
more qualified for the job.

-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Petteri Räty]

On 04/10/2010 11:17 PM, Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 10 April 2010 21:27, Denis Dupeyron  wrote:
>> Ben,
>>
>> Petteri was proposing an idea. He is being creative
> 
> You call that creative? It seems you don't know what the word means.
> 

You don't have to take any part in the experiment but will you benefit
anything by posting a negatively toned comment to this thread?

> 
> I guess I was hallucinating that I started the wiki project, which has
> been a popular request for as long as I can remember. I guess I
> imagined I worked together with Markos to start the proxy-maintainer
> project to improve visibility of that option to contribute. And I must
> have been dreaming that I sent a mail about forming a team to review
> and renew the recruitment process and curriculum. I must be mistaken
> in thinking I have proposed to centralize all developer documentation
> into one place. Oh, and forgive me for not publicly announcing that I
> sent a mail to the dormant webteam about joining and offering my help.
> And asking for leadership on issues that affect Gentoo on a wider
> scale is not constructive?
> 

Yes all valuable contributions and hopefully you keep on that road.

> 
> To my knowledge there was no public announcement about that, other
> than that we have another lead now.
> 

Because there's not much to announce. You expect us to announce that are
trying to be effective now? I don't think we tried to be inefficient
earlier. The only thing changed visible to outside is lining our policy
to agree with GLEP 48. It's the job of the lead to make sure the project
does it's work as it's supposed to.

Regards,
Petteri




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Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Steve Rosiak]

right.

Am Samstag, 10. April 2010 16:38:13 schrieb Ben de Groot:
> On 10 April 2010 15:53, Petteri Räty  wrote:
> > As people seem to want the council to take action I offer to take
> > action. As it's impossible for me to do everything myself I offer to act
> > as a project manager/owner for people willing to donate their time to
> > whatever I see worthy for Gentoo as whole
> 
> I am willing to follow real leaders, who inspire and lead by example,
> in the words of Ann Marie E. McSwain, Assistant Professor at Lincoln
> University, “leadership is about capacity: the capacity of leaders to
> listen and observe, to use their expertise as a starting point to
> encourage dialogue between all levels of decision-making, to establish
> processes and transparency in decision-making, to articulate their own
> values and visions clearly but not impose them. Leadership is about
> setting and not just reacting to agendas, identifying problems, and
> initiating change that makes for substantial improvement rather than
> managing change.” (quoted from
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership)
> 
> You've just shown a striking lack of such leadership.
> 
> No cheers this time,
> 

Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Ben de Groot]

On 10 April 2010 22:56, Petteri Räty  wrote:
>> I guess I was hallucinating that I started the wiki project, which has
>> been a popular request for as long as I can remember. I guess I
>> imagined I worked together with Markos to start the proxy-maintainer
>> project to improve visibility of that option to contribute. And I must
>> have been dreaming that I sent a mail about forming a team to review
>> and renew the recruitment process and curriculum. I must be mistaken
>> in thinking I have proposed to centralize all developer documentation
>> into one place. Oh, and forgive me for not publicly announcing that I
>> sent a mail to the dormant webteam about joining and offering my help.
>> And asking for leadership on issues that affect Gentoo on a wider
>> scale is not constructive?
>>
>
> Yes all valuable contributions and hopefully you keep on that road.

Not if you think it is okay for Calchan to insult me the way he did.


-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Petteri Räty]

On 04/10/2010 04:53 PM, Petteri Räty wrote:
> As people seem to want the council to take action I offer to take
> action. As it's impossible for me to do everything myself I offer to act
> as a project manager/owner for people willing to donate their time to
> whatever I see worthy for Gentoo as whole like the web page redesign.
> Basically you tell me how many hours you have and I'll give you stuff to
> work on. It might not be glorious at times like cleaning up a piece of
> documentation but why not spend an hour a week on something that
> benefits the project? If people are interested, I'll work out the details.
> 
> Regards,
> Petteri
> 

There seems to be some confusion what this is about so maybe the
attached log will clear things.

Regards,
Petteri
21:04 <+tanderson> Betelgeuse: I may have missed any messages from you, but do 
you have any work re your -dev thread?
21:06 <@Betelgeuse> tanderson: how much work do you want?
21:07 <+tanderson> hm, a couple hours-worth to start off with.
21:08 <@Betelgeuse> tanderson: 
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=2&chap=1 go 
through by parts and change things to link to devmanual after checking all info 
is on the 
linked page
21:09 <@Betelgeuse> tanderson: basically make sure we only document things once
21:09 <+tanderson> so, eliminate that page over time by putting things in 
devmanual?
21:10 <@Betelgeuse> tanderson: Yeah that page in the long term doesn't have a 
future
21:10 <@Betelgeuse> tanderson: once we have info only once it's easy to see 
what needs to be written to devmanual
21:10 <+tanderson> gotcha.
21:11 <+tanderson> I've been wanting some other work for awhile, arch work is 
tiring and burn-out type.
21:13 < spatz> Betelgeuse: so that's how it's gonna work, people come to you 
asking for tasks and you hand them out? sounds handy when I'm bored :)
21:13 <@Betelgeuse> spatz: yes that's what I proposed
21:14 < spatz> I read it differently, but it looks like fun
21:15 <@Betelgeuse> spatz: I should be able to queue up plenty :)
21:15 <+tanderson> yeah, seems so to me. I don't think it will fix all gentoo's 
problems. But one can't reasonably expect the council to do (all) the dirty 
work .
21:15 < spatz> I'll give it a shot, count me in. I have a lot of studying to do 
today and tomorrow, but I'll come ask for stuff tomorrow or on monday
21:15 <@Betelgeuse> tanderson: yeah but slow progress will eventually get us 
there in many things
21:16 <@Betelgeuse> better than just talking that we need to do something and 
not doing anything
21:16 <@Betelgeuse> spatz: how did you read it then?
21:16 <@Betelgeuse> spatz: I can post a follow up to avoid confusion
21:17 <@Betelgeuse> Maybe I should just post the logs from here.
21:17 < spatz> basically the post seemed negative, and sounded like you're 
searching for people to be your bitches :p


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Petteri Räty]

On 04/11/2010 12:18 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 10 April 2010 22:56, Petteri Räty  wrote:
>>> I guess I was hallucinating that I started the wiki project, which has
>>> been a popular request for as long as I can remember. I guess I
>>> imagined I worked together with Markos to start the proxy-maintainer
>>> project to improve visibility of that option to contribute. And I must
>>> have been dreaming that I sent a mail about forming a team to review
>>> and renew the recruitment process and curriculum. I must be mistaken
>>> in thinking I have proposed to centralize all developer documentation
>>> into one place. Oh, and forgive me for not publicly announcing that I
>>> sent a mail to the dormant webteam about joining and offering my help.
>>> And asking for leadership on issues that affect Gentoo on a wider
>>> scale is not constructive?
>>>
>>
>> Yes all valuable contributions and hopefully you keep on that road.
> 
> Not if you think it is okay for Calchan to insult me the way he did.
> 
> 

Could he have chosen better words - yes
Were there errors in content - no
Misunderstandings - more than likely

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Ben de Groot]

On 10 April 2010 23:23, Petteri Räty  wrote:
> On 04/11/2010 12:18 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> Not if you think it is okay for Calchan to insult me the way he did.
>
> Could he have chosen better words - yes
> Were there errors in content - no

How about:

> You have lately been increasingly critical but not constructively

> at no point have you offered your contribution

> You haven't offered to help

> you haven't proposed any real idea

> use the mailing lists for immature political rantings

You think those words are correct?
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Petteri Räty]

On 04/11/2010 12:37 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 10 April 2010 23:23, Petteri Räty  wrote:
>> On 04/11/2010 12:18 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
>>> Not if you think it is okay for Calchan to insult me the way he did.
>>
>> Could he have chosen better words - yes
>> Were there errors in content - no
> 
> How about:
> 
>> You have lately been increasingly critical but not constructively
> 
>> at no point have you offered your contribution
> 
>> You haven't offered to help
> 
>> you haven't proposed any real idea
> 

As I read it he was referring to specific things like recruiters not
your contributions as a whole.

>> use the mailing lists for immature political rantings
> 

As for this I said he could have refrained from mud slinging, didn't I?

Regards,
Petteri



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[gentoo-dev] RFC: eblits.eclass

[Matti Bickel]

Hi folks,

this is my first eclass proposal, so rip it apart gently ;)

Disclaimer: the work proposed is NOT my own, but rather contributed by
vapier (see [1] or sys-libs/glibc) and kumba (see [2] or
sys-kernel/mips-sources).

I propose to add eblits.eclass[2] (attached to this message) with the
purpose and author comments from [1].

A quick grep showed that glibc and mips-sources currently use functions
defined in global scope in each ebuild to do the job. The referenced
overlays also use eblits to install php-5.3 and this is currently
blocking php-5.3 from entering the tree.

sys-kernel/mips-sources also has comment:
# They'll likely be superseded someday by better ideas, possibly elibs.

That's why I titled this email "RFC" - I realize this eclass might be
obsolete in a not to distant future and possibly cause funny behaviour
in ebuilds that I'm not aware of.

So please enlighten me of any problems you can think of that adding
eblits.eclass as proposed above would cause. I'd be more than happy if
we can get an update on elibs progress, too.

As the need for such an eclass is very real (we really, really want
php-5.3 in the tree!), I want to limit discussion to one week, ending
April 18th. If there are no objections, I'll add the eclass after that date.

TIA, Matti

[1]
http://hg.hoffie.info/gentoo-php-rewrite/file/66effb7b56a0/eclass/eblits.eclass
[2]
http://github.com/GiDiS/gentoo-php-rewrite/blob/master/eclass/eblits.eclass
# Copyright 1999-2010 Gentoo Foundation
# Distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License v2
# $Header: $


# eblit-core
# Usage:  [version] [eval]
# Main eblit engine
eblit-core() {
[[ -z $FILESDIR ]] && FILESDIR="$(dirname $EBUILD)/files"
local e v func=$1 ver=$2 eval_=$3
for v in ${ver:+-}${ver} -${PVR} -${PV} "" ; do
e="${FILESDIR}/eblits/${func}${v}.eblit"
if [[ -e ${e} ]] ; then
. "${e}"
[[ ${eval_} == 1 ]] && eval "${func}() { eblit-run 
${func} ${ver} ; }"
return 0
fi
done
return 1
}

# eblit-include
# Usage: [--skip]  [version]
# Includes an "eblit" -- a chunk of common code among ebuilds in a given
# package so that its functions can be sourced and utilized within the
# ebuild.
eblit-include() {
local skipable=false r=0
[[ $1 == "--skip" ]] && skipable=true && shift
[[ $1 == pkg_* ]] && skipable=true

[[ -z $1 ]] && die "Usage: eblit-include  [version]"
eblit-core $1 $2
r="$?"
${skipable} && return 0
[[ "$r" -gt "0" ]] && die "Could not locate requested eblit '$1' in 
${FILESDIR}/eblits/"
}

# eblit-run-maybe
# Usage: 
# Runs a function if it is defined in an eblit
eblit-run-maybe() {
[[ $(type -t "$@") == "function" ]] && "$@"
}

# eblit-run
# Usage:  [version]
# Runs a function defined in an eblit
eblit-run() {
eblit-include --skip common "${*:2}"
eblit-include "$@"
eblit-run-maybe eblit-$1-pre
eblit-${PN}-$1
eblit-run-maybe eblit-$1-post
}

# eblit-pkg
# Usage:  [version]
# Includes the given functions AND evals them so they're included in the binpkgs
eblit-pkg() {
[[ -z $1 ]] && die "Usage: eblit-pkg  [version]"
eblit-core $1 $2 1
}



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Petteri Räty  wrote:
> On 04/11/2010 12:37 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
>> How about:
>>
>>> You have lately been increasingly critical but not constructively
>>
>>> at no point have you offered your contribution
>>
>>> You haven't offered to help
>>
>>> you haven't proposed any real idea
>>
>
> As I read it he was referring to specific things like recruiters not
> your contributions as a whole.

Exactly.

>>> use the mailing lists for immature political rantings
>>
>
> As for this I said he could have refrained from mud slinging, didn't I?

No mud slinging there but a fact. You can either ignore this kind of
behavior and let them pollute our mailing lists, or you can point at
them and say they won't be tolerated. I chose the latter.

Denis.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Petteri Räty]

On 04/11/2010 01:06 AM, Denis Dupeyron wrote:

> 
> No mud slinging there but a fact. You can either ignore this kind of
> behavior and let them pollute our mailing lists, or you can point at
> them and say they won't be tolerated. I chose the latter.
> 

I mean things like "immature political rantings" are not likely to evoke
the wanted response and it didn't happen here either.

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Ben de Groot]

On 11 April 2010 00:06, Denis Dupeyron  wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Petteri Räty  wrote:
>> On 04/11/2010 12:37 AM, Ben de Groot wrote:
>>> How about:
>>>
 You have lately been increasingly critical but not constructively
>>>
 at no point have you offered your contribution
>>>
 You haven't offered to help
>>>
 you haven't proposed any real idea
>>>
>>
>> As I read it he was referring to specific things like recruiters not
>> your contributions as a whole.
>
> Exactly.

Even then it is false. As I did offer my help and make suggestions.

-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

[gentoo-dev] Re: Handling of keywording bugs with only one arch

[Ryan Hill]

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 16:26:46 +0200
Petteri Räty  wrote:

> On 03/12/2010 09:18 PM, Petteri Räty wrote:
> > There seems to be two different schools on who to assign a keywording
> > bug with only a single arch. I have myself assigned it to the arch in
> > question but there's a difference of opinion here:
> > http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=272160#c5
> > Let's get agreed on a single approach and I will add a note here:
> > http://devmanual.gentoo.org/keywording/index.html
> > I naturally support the approach I have been doing as I think the arch
> > team is the one in charge.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Petteri
> > 
> 
> So let's summarize for assigning to the single arch:
> 
> Against (and my comments on why they don't apply):
>  - Comments would only go to arch team after resolving:
>   * maintainer is still in Cc or Reporter
>  - Arch teams not in charge of fixing problems
>   * If problems come up they deserve a new bug as a dependency
>   * one bug per issue and a stabilization bug is about stabilization
>  - Maintainer being able to decide when to go stable
>   * Bug wranglers should still assign to maintainers for their ack
>   * The maintainer assigns it to the arch team
> 
> In support (and my comments in support):
>  - Can be used as a gentle reminder for slacker arches
>  - The arch teams are actually ones doing the work to resolve the bug
>   * As they are the ones to mark it as resolved it makes sense for them
> to be the assignees
> 
> So based on this I propose that I will write this down in appropriate
> places in to our documentation and commit a week from now. Please object
> if you don't agree and we can discuss some more.

You ignored my point about this being completely moot once we start using
flags in bugzilla for arch teams.  We'll have to change the policy then
to the maintainer being the assignee anyways.


-- 
fonts,by design, by neglect
gcc-porting,  for a fact or just for effect
wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Handling of keywording bugs with only one arch

[Petteri Räty]

On 04/11/2010 01:38 AM, Ryan Hill wrote:
> 
> You ignored my point about this being completely moot once we start using
> flags in bugzilla for arch teams.  We'll have to change the policy then
> to the maintainer being the assignee anyways.
> 

Then we will do it when that happens.

Regards,
Petteri




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Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Petteri Räty  wrote:
> I mean things like "immature political rantings" are not likely to evoke
> the wanted response and it didn't happen here either.

I know it hurts the eyes a bit, but calling problems by their name is
part of fixing them.

Denis.

[gentoo-dev] Re: Handling of keywording bugs with only one arch

[Ryan Hill]

On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 01:41:34 +0300
Petteri Räty  wrote:

> On 04/11/2010 01:38 AM, Ryan Hill wrote:
> > 
> > You ignored my point about this being completely moot once we start using
> > flags in bugzilla for arch teams.  We'll have to change the policy then
> > to the maintainer being the assignee anyways.
> > 
> 
> Then we will do it when that happens.

Okay, thanks.


-- 
fonts,by design, by neglect
gcc-porting,  for a fact or just for effect
wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662


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Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Ben de Groot]

On 11 April 2010 00:54, Denis Dupeyron  wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Petteri Räty  wrote:
>> I mean things like "immature political rantings" are not likely to evoke
>> the wanted response and it didn't happen here either.
>
> I know it hurts the eyes a bit, but calling problems by their name is
> part of fixing them.

Except when someone else does it, then calling the problem of lack of
leadership suddenly becomes "immature political ranting". Nice try.

-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead

Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Allo.

On 10-04-2010 14:09, Vincent-Xavier JUMEL wrote:
> Le samedi 10 avril 2010 15:53:48, Petteri Räty a écrit :
>> As people seem to want the council to take action I offer to take
>> action. As it's impossible for me to do everything myself I offer to act
>> as a project manager/owner for people willing to donate their time to
>> whatever I see worthy for Gentoo as whole like the web page redesign.
>> Basically you tell me how many hours you have and I'll give you stuff to
>> work on. It might not be glorious at times like cleaning up a piece of
>> documentation but why not spend an hour a week on something that
>> benefits the project? If people are interested, I'll work out the details.
>>
> Since I'm quite new to this list, I'll start by a quick presentation.
> 
> I'm a french math teacher who loves computer science and Free Software. I've 
> discovered Gentoo circa 2004 at school and since then it perfectly matches my 
> needs and way of thinking.
> 
> I'm writing some personal ebuilds that I've never took time to clean up and 
> upload to sunrise since it works for me. You may find a sympa ebuild at my 
> personal repo[1]
> 
> I'm not sure I've enough time to involve myself as a Gentoo developer (even 
> if 
> a maintain my own sympa ebuild and other) but I want to help Gentoo project.
> 
> I could easily donate some time, but I don't know where to begin, so I'm glad 
> of your offer to direct me to something useful.

I'm sending you an email directly (and cc'ing Recruiters and User
Relations) as I want to try to get some accomplishment from all the buzz
in our mailing lists.

In case you want to know more about the recruitment process, I'm posting
below our (recruiters) default reply to such inquiries.

If you suspect or conclude that you don't have the time and or
motivation to become a Gentoo Developer, I'd still like very much to see
how we can help you contribute to Gentoo in a way that his rewarding to
you and that will be of help to the whole community.

To that effect, are there any particular areas in Gentoo that you would
like to contribute to or do you have particular skills that you think
could be of use to Gentoo? What communication channels are you willing
and or capable to use? I'll do my best to try find the relevant teams on
Gentoo and get you in touch with their developers.

> Cheers
> 
> [1] : http://redmine.thetys-retz.net/projects/overlay
> 
> P.S. Sorry, this web page is still in French as my signature

No problem. I can read French and we do have some French speaking
developers. I will try to save you from my "murdering" of the language
though ;-) and will reply in English or let one of the others reply in
French.

Please feel free to email me directly, poke me on the Freenode or OFTC
IRC networks (my nick is jmbsvicetto) as well as emailing the recruiters
or userrel alias for any further requests, questions or comments. We'd
also like to hear any suggestions you may have.


-  Recruiters default email 

We are very actively looking for interested people. You can start
contributing right now if you want. Two good ways to start are
proposing solutions for bugs [1] and contributing to an overlay [2]
like Sunrise for example [3]. There is more information on how to
get involved with overlay development at [4]. You may also want to
have a look at the staffing needs page [5].

If you have written ebuilds, feel free to submit them to bugzilla
[1] or sunrise [3]. This way we can all see them and help you make
them better. Also, you never know, some developer may like what you
did and commit it to the main tree. Note that we're all very busy so
we may not react to your bugs, but that should not prevent you from
filing them. Bugzilla is also used for documenting work that needs to
be done and following up on it, so if the bugs sit there even if
nobody reacts it's already useful.

You will need to read the Gentoo Documentation Resources [6], and more
specifically the Gentoo Developer Handbook [7] and the Gentoo
Development Guide [8].

Another way to help, especially for non-technical projects, is to
contact people directly [9]. Be aware that they can be away though, so
be patient, try others on the same project, and finally get back to us
in case you fail to reach anybody. You may also want to look at what
mailing lists are of interest to you [10] and browse through the
archives [11] to learn what is going on.

Training new developers takes a lot of time and effort so we don't
recruit as much as we would like and need. Before you can enter the
recruiting process though, you'll need to show what you can do. We do
this for many reasons but mainly because it shows your commitment to
Gentoo (since training takes so much time we favor people who we know
will stay), it shows what your interests are (you'll need to find a
mentor with the same interests to start your training) and it tells us
how much and what kind of trai

Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 10-04-2010 13:35, George Prowse wrote:
> On 10/04/2010 05:10, William Hubbs wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 01:19:32AM +0200, Ben de Groot wrote:
>>> On 3 April 2010 20:56, George Prowse  wrote:
 Does mediawiki have captcha ability?
>>>
>>> Yes, there are a number of solutions for that.
>>
>>   I realize I am very late on this thread, but please do not go here
>>   unless you provide an audio solution as well.  Otherwise, you will
>>   affectively lock blind users out of the wiki, just as they are
>>   currentlylocked out of the forums.
>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/284362
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
> while we are on the subject, can tomk or whoever is the head forums
> techie these days fix up an accessibility suitable system for the
> forums? It has been six months since that bug was opened.

William / George,

the forums team is aware of the bug and even though we realize its
importance and do not wish to discriminate, the fact is that we do not
have the resources to fix this bug when we're still working on the
migration to phpBB3 and reviewing the infrastructure for the forums.
Any help fixing this bug is obviously most welcome.

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Sebastian Pipping]

On 04/11/10 00:54, Denis Dupeyron wrote:
> I know it hurts the eyes a bit, but calling problems by their name is
> part of fixing them.

What about difference in tone?  You can transfer content X in very
different tones and sill not hide anything.  It's hard, but it's possible.



Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-dev] Who is willing to be lead?

[Richard Freeman]

On 04/10/2010 07:44 PM, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 11 April 2010 00:54, Denis Dupeyron  wrote:

I know it hurts the eyes a bit, but calling problems by their name is
part of fixing them.


Except when someone else does it, then calling the problem of lack of
leadership suddenly becomes "immature political ranting". Nice try.



You know, leadership can be as much about NOT replying to an email as 
replying to one...  :)


You don't need to be elected to the council to be a leader.  I'd say 
that with very few exceptions those who have been on the council were 
elected because a majority of devs recognize that they have been leaders.


I can certainly say that they have put in a lot more time than most 
reading this list, and it really isn't anybody's place to lecture them 
on being leaders as a result.  If somebody really thinks they have 
constructive advice then make it constructive, or at least send it in 
private to coun...@g.o.


If there is ANYBODY here who actually intends to lift a finger to 
actually do work to rectify these problems, by all means contact the 
appropriate project lead or the council or something and ask how to 
pitch in and help.  Based on Patteri's post it sounds like you can feel 
free to ping him on irc/email if you're looking for something to do.


And let's try to remember that we're all in it together - infighting 
isn't going to inspire more people to join the cause...


Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Council meeting 19 April 2010

[Brian Harring]

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 5:02 AM, Brian Harring  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 11:05:34AM +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> > Next monthly council meeting will be at 19 April 2010, 18:00 UTC
> > in #gentoo-council.
> >
> > If you have any topics you want us to discuss or even vote about,
> > simply followup to this message.

Wrote it up as a glep-

http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferringb/gleps/required_use.html

Longer term, I'd like to see all EAPI related changed proposed as
Glep's so the discussion and logic for a feature is properly
documented, including alternatives and counter proposals to it.
Basically the same thing Python does with their Python Enhancement
Proposals (Peps, which is where Glep's came from).
Thanks,
~harring

Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[Patrick Nagel]

Hi William,

On 2010-04-10 17:18 UTC William Hubbs wrote:
> > Is there a better system?
> 
>  The ideal captcha would not be visual at all.  For example, on another
>  site I am involved with, which is not quite online yet, we are talking
>  about implementing tseveral levels of captcha such as:
> 
>  - a math captcha (you will be asked to solve a simple math problem)
>  - a word captcha (fill in the missing letters of a word)
>  - a phrase captcha (complete the phrase)
> 
> Could something like one or more of these be possible?

For MediaWiki, a math captcha would be easy to get in place:
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmEdit

I don't know how effective that really simple captcha is, but I know a few 
not-so-large Wikis that use it, and don't have a spam problem. Also, I'm sure 
it would be easy to modify the source to add some more tricks, once the first 
spam bots got past.

Patrick.

-- 
Key ID: 0x86E346D4http://patrick-nagel.net/key.asc
Fingerprint: 7745 E1BE FA8B FBAD 76AB 2BFC C981 E686 86E3 46D4


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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: eblits.eclass

[Brian Harring]

On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 12:06:17AM +0200, Matti Bickel wrote:
> I propose to add eblits.eclass[2] (attached to this message) with the
> purpose and author comments from [1].

Counter proposal; finish off the remaining steps of elib related steps 
from glep33 and integrate it into an EAPI.


> So please enlighten me of any problems you can think of that adding
> eblits.eclass as proposed above would cause. I'd be more than happy if
> we can get an update on elibs progress, too.

Please note that FILESDIR access isn't guranteed during metadata 
sourcing- pkgcore specifically does _not_ set that var to catch ebuild 
screwups.  This is why mips-sources has their eblits loadup w/in 
pkg_setup.

Honestly I'm not much for turning down this particularly pkgcore 
protection since it's caught some screwy access in the past.  The 
problem here is your eblit-php-metadata function- the function is 
executed in the global scope which means it will be validly blocked 
under pkgcore.

Please flip through glep33- the usage of eblits doesn't match their 
original intention there, the intention was to move non metadata 
functionality into libraries to be loaded up after sourcing.  
Basically a compliment to eclasses.  However you're using eblits for 
metadata purposes which is contrary to that intention.

> As the need for such an eclass is very real (we really, really want
> php-5.3 in the tree!), I want to limit discussion to one week, ending
> April 18th. If there are no objections, I'll add the eclass after that date.

In looking through your usage of eblits, I'm not actually seeing any 
reason this technique *must* be used.  Could you please clarify if 
there is some edge case I'm missing requiring eblits?

The reason I ask is that I'd rather see elibs resurrected/finished 
(I'll do the work if no one else will) than have the eblits hackery 
used.

~harring


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[William Hubbs]

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 02:04:08PM -0400, Vincent Launchbury wrote:
> On 04/10/10 11:25, William Hubbs wrote:
> > Yes, it does.  However, I would tend to question how practical their
> > audio captcha is.  Go to www.captcha.net and try the demo a few
> > times and see how much luck you have solving audio captchas from it.
> 
> Just for reference, I tried 15 different sound clips and got 5 right. 9
> were completely incomprehensible, 1 was fuzzy, and the other 5 were
> quite clear.
 
 This is the issue with their solution.  I personally have run into
 situations where I have given up because I've tried several audio
 captchas but been unable to understand them well enough to even guess.

> I'd agree that accessibility is important, but if a better solution
> doesn't end up working out, ReCaptcha should at least provide access for
> blind users, albeit inefficiently.
 
 It is better than nothing, but only slightly so.  As you discovered,
 the captchas are quite difficult to solve.

 --
William Hubbs
gentoo accessibility team lead
willi...@gentoo.org


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