Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Sunday 10 May 2009 04:23:25 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: 1. It was a paludis bug, of course paludis --info came in handy (are you trying to jest? ;p) It's most likely not a Paludis bug; do you really think that no-one's ever tried to compile Qt4 on amd64 with Paludis until now? I'm guessing a misconfiguration, but we'll have to wait for the real paludis --info output (NOT emerge --info, because that doesn't say anything about the Paludis configuration) to be sure. 2. You found it useful because you knew the syntax, and where to look for what -- it is relevant to you. Not to everyone else It's useful and relevant if and only if it contains information that helps diagnose the problem. In the likely event that it's a misconfiguration, that applies to paludis --info, but probably not emerge --info, unless he made the same mistake with both. 3. Also, last comment on the bug: The emerge --info and paludis --info I reported above are from the wrong machine. I'll update the results on Monday when I get back to the correct machine. It is a Xeon W5580 cpu which should be compiling as x86_64. I believe the bug is real. Sorry for the confusion. Oops? =p If anything, that's a point in favour of tanderson's argument. If the --info the user had posted had been right, then both the paludis and emerge output are equally useful, because they both indicate that it isn't an amd64 system at all. On the other hand, if it turns out that on the correct system, Paludis is misconfigured and Portage isn't, then only paludis --info will help.
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:22:12PM +0100, Jeroen Roovers wrote: Hi folks, --info' is asked for in a bug report, post *that*. There are many examples of what should be included out here, so if you can't or won't use emerge, then you'll have to copy the information manually. Remarking that you don't use emerge is not a valid reason not to post it - post both `(emerge|paludis) --info' if you must - having both there will help greatly and is necessary for the time being[1]. Folks, I'd like to direct your attention to bug #269067. In this case, had the bugwrangler(yngwin) asked for paludis --info the bug could have been RESO INVALID without it getting to me. I wouldn't have wasted ~30 minutes deciding that the user was being crazy. So yes, paludis --info can come in handy, and I found it useful in this case. -- - Thomas Anderson Gentoo Developer / Areas of responsibility: AMD64, Secretary to the Gentoo Council - pgpChNtYrEc3r.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 2:44 AM, Thomas Anderson gentoofa...@gentoo.org wrote: Folks, I'd like to direct your attention to bug #269067. In this case, had the bugwrangler(yngwin) asked for paludis --info the bug could have been RESO INVALID without it getting to me. I wouldn't have wasted ~30 minutes deciding that the user was being crazy. So yes, paludis --info can come in handy, and I found it useful in this case. 1. It was a paludis bug, of course paludis --info came in handy (are you trying to jest? ;p) 2. You found it useful because you knew the syntax, and where to look for what -- it is relevant to you. Not to everyone else 3. Also, last comment on the bug: The emerge --info and paludis --info I reported above are from the wrong machine. I'll update the results on Monday when I get back to the correct machine. It is a Xeon W5580 cpu which should be compiling as x86_64. I believe the bug is real. Sorry for the confusion. Oops? =p -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
В Срд, 08/04/2009 в 16:36 +0200, Jeroen Roovers пишет: On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:11:02 +0400 Peter Volkov p...@gentoo.org wrote: В Вск, 05/04/2009 в 22:41 +0200, Timothy Redaelli пишет: i think it's better to develop an emerge --info package It already exists. But regretfully it does not provide useful output even about the package's USE flags so I suspect it was implemented for different purposes. What would we need other than the output of, say, `emerge -vp package' attached to the bottom or top? CFLAGS, compiler/libc version and other information that can change since package was built but still helps to reproduce problem. And it's really great that now we have simple tool to ask users to show us CFLAGS. Thank you Zac. -- Peter.
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
Just an idea without knowing all the details: Could - --emerge-info and --emerge-info-verbose options be added to paludis or - a converter script be written to convert paludis output to feel like emerge output to solves this issue? Would that technically be possible? Is paludis returning a superset of the information returned by portage? Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:21:37 +0200 Sebastian Pipping webmas...@hartwork.org wrote: Just an idea without knowing all the details: Could - --emerge-info and --emerge-info-verbose options be added to paludis or - a converter script be written to convert paludis output to feel like emerge output to solves this issue? Would that technically be possible? Sure, but we're not going to do it. All the information provided by paludis --info is necessary and useful. Taking any of it out would be removing things that are required to determine the cause of a bug. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Taking any of it out would be removing things that are required to determine the cause of a bug. I doubt that's true in most cases: The information needed to finding the bug is a (possibly small) subset of the whole. I don't see how additionally providing a stripped down version of paludis info hurts anybody, as the subset either holds what the wrangler needs or it doesn't, in which case they can still request more information for the reporter. I suggest that you take this as a usability request from the users of your software. Isn't that a great chance to make several people happier every day in the future by just a few lines of code on your end? Would they raise their voice if it did not matter? Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:50:07 +0200 Sebastian Pipping webmas...@hartwork.org wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Taking any of it out would be removing things that are required to determine the cause of a bug. I doubt that's true in most cases: The information needed to finding the bug is a (possibly small) subset of the whole. Yes, but the computer doesn't know which subset it is, just like it doesn't know which subset of emerge --info is useful. There's nothing in there that's never relevant. I don't see how additionally providing a stripped down version of paludis info hurts anybody, as the subset either holds what the wrangler needs or it doesn't, in which case they can still request more information for the reporter. Or we could just provide the information the wrangler will need straight away. Much easier. I suggest that you take this as a usability request from the users of your software. Isn't that a great chance to make several people happier every day in the future by just a few lines of code on your end? Would they raise their voice if it did not matter? This isn't a usability request. Making the use paludis --info cat/pkg text stand out more was a usability request, and I was happy to make that change. This is a few noxious trolls whining in an attempt to cause trouble. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: This isn't a usability request. Making the use paludis --info cat/pkg text stand out more was a usability request, and I was happy to make that change. This is a few noxious trolls whining in an attempt to cause trouble. For those who have concerns with the paludis output - is there anything present in emerge --info that the paludis output omits? I'd see that as a completely legitimate concern. Also - if a better way of organizing the paludis output would make it easier to find what you're looking for I'd think that would be a constructive piece of criticism. It does seem a bit odd to ask somebody to imitate the emerge formatting of the output just to say that it matches. If somebody wants to create a script to do it they can post it online so that everybody who cares can run it and not have to look at evil paludis output... :) Now, if were were talking about data that was an input to some kind of automated routine then that would be a different story. However, in that case we might start by xmlifying it or something...
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:11:02 +0400 Peter Volkov p...@gentoo.org wrote: В Вск, 05/04/2009 в 22:41 +0200, Timothy Redaelli пишет: i think it's better to develop an emerge --info package It already exists. But regretfully it does not provide useful output even about the package's USE flags so I suspect it was implemented for different purposes. What would we need other than the output of, say, `emerge -vp package' attached to the bottom or top? Kind regards, jer
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Peter Volkov wrote: В Вск, 05/04/2009 в 22:41 +0200, Timothy Redaelli пишет: i think it's better to develop an emerge --info package It already exists. But regretfully it does not provide useful output even about the package's USE flags so I suspect it was implemented for different purposes. In svn r13297 I've added support for displaying the USE similarly to how they are displayed in the merge list: http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/portage?view=revrev=13297 - -- Thanks, Zac -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAknc91QACgkQ/ejvha5XGaOgrwCgsauJVvIqpDacLt2h4nVs1aL1 sqsAn0UctKfWz1WyyW5cmI0QUN7zrowy =U33D -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
В Вск, 05/04/2009 в 22:41 +0200, Timothy Redaelli пишет: i think it's better to develop an emerge --info package It already exists. But regretfully it does not provide useful output even about the package's USE flags so I suspect it was implemented for different purposes. -- Peter. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Monday 06 April 2009 05:29:01 Andrew D Kirch wrote: cut I think it's best as a general rule to NEVER _EVER_ under any circumstances emulate paludis. I think that everyone may have a good idea, also Microsoft (TM). I only take the idea. I don't care about who has it ;) I think that it's better to have an ebuild-scope information instead of the global-one. It's only my opinion, I don't want to make flame :) -- Timothy `Drizzt` Redaelli FreeSBIE Developer, Gentoo Developer, GUFI Staff There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
Andrew D Kirch wrote: I reject the premise that war should always be prevented. I am however concerned that criticism where criticism is due is flame baiting. The original post did not contain any constructive criticism of paludis at all. It simply stated that under no circumstances should anybody ever adopt anything that was done first in paludis. That is simply flamebait. If you think there is a good reason not to have an emerge --info package feature by all means state it. However, let's discuss issues based on their merits -- preferably their technical merits. I fully acknowledge that other non-technical aspects of decisions also matter, but they need to be talked about constructively. Ironically the relationship between the paludis and portage camps is probably the best I've seen it in the last year or two. Maybe I just don't get on IRC often enough. :) I think that taking these steps is a good move. Package maintainers should be focusing on the ebuild's environment and not the particular program being used to invoke the ebuild. If it becomes clear that the problem is that a package manager isn't complying with the PMS then by all means point fingers at the guilty parties. Gentoo is about choice...
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Saturday 04 April 2009 18:12:09 Thilo Bangert wrote: 'guess'. Like how you have to guess what use flags are really being used for the package in question, because it doesn't tell you? i'd like to ask the developers of package managers to standardize this. having packagmanager --info be the same no matter who you like best is incredibly usefull. while we are at it, emerge --info output may or may not be made even more usefull... i think it's better to develop an emerge --info package like paludis --info package. Since it's better to have an ebuild-scope environment than a global one (for package.use/bashrc) -- Timothy `Drizzt` Redaelli FreeSBIE Developer, Gentoo Developer, GUFI Staff There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
Timothy Redaelli wrote: On Saturday 04 April 2009 18:12:09 Thilo Bangert wrote: 'guess'. Like how you have to guess what use flags are really being used for the package in question, because it doesn't tell you? i'd like to ask the developers of package managers to standardize this. having packagmanager --info be the same no matter who you like best is incredibly usefull. while we are at it, emerge --info output may or may not be made even more usefull... i think it's better to develop an emerge --info package like paludis --info package. Since it's better to have an ebuild-scope environment than a global one (for package.use/bashrc) I think it's best as a general rule to NEVER _EVER_ under any circumstances emulate paludis. Andrew
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
Andrew D Kirch wrote: I think it's best as a general rule to NEVER _EVER_ under any circumstances emulate paludis. While I'm not personally a fan of paludis, it doesn't help anyone to post crap like that to any mailing list. Please take it elsewhere. Thanks. -- Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux DeveloperCatalyst/Genkernel + Release Engineering Lead
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
Andrew Gaffney wrote: Andrew D Kirch wrote: I think it's best as a general rule to NEVER _EVER_ under any circumstances emulate paludis. While I'm not personally a fan of paludis, it doesn't help anyone to post crap like that to any mailing list. Please take it elsewhere. Thanks. Why is it inappropriate to discuss the poor UI, and implementation of software we use especially in open source? Maybe if we're closed to valid argument against poor methodology we can fail like everyone else who develops closed minded (Debian) and closed source (long list here) software. Larry the Cow is deeply disappointed in you sir. Why is it not appropriate to note the prolonged damage that paludis and its associated personalities have done to the Gentoo community? This damage and resulting tree situation caused many to stop using Gentoo, myself included for a time. The diminished quality of the portage tree, and the open hostility of those involved with paludis caused injury to Gentoo, and it's reputation which is both significant and lasting. Why is it not appropriate to note that commandline arguments for paludis read like war and peace, and are a leading cause of repetitive stress injury in the open source community? And if a development mailing list where the merits of paludis and portage are being debated is not the correct forum to note the manifest shortcomings of one, then where is it? Andrew
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Andrew D Kirch trel...@trelane.net wrote: Why is it inappropriate to discuss the poor UI, and implementation of software we use especially in open source? Maybe if we're closed to valid argument against poor methodology we can fail like everyone else who develops closed minded (Debian) and closed source (long list here) software. Larry the Cow is deeply disappointed in you sir. Discuss, sure. Flamebait, no. If you flame, the other side gets a license to flame. Let's keep things civil, and restrict ourselves to technical critique. If you want things to prevent war, measure yourself with the same yardstick as you expect others to be. That will be all, Thank you. -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Andrew D Kirch trel...@trelane.net wrote: Why is it inappropriate to discuss the poor UI, and implementation of software we use especially in open source? Maybe if we're closed to valid argument against poor methodology we can fail like everyone else who develops closed minded (Debian) and closed source (long list here) software. Larry the Cow is deeply disappointed in you sir. Discuss, sure. Flamebait, no. If you flame, the other side gets a license to flame. Let's keep things civil, and restrict ourselves to technical critique. If you want things to prevent war, measure yourself with the same yardstick as you expect others to be. That will be all, Thank you. I reject the premise that war should always be prevented. I am however concerned that criticism where criticism is due is flame baiting. Andrew
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
Paludis --info does not work for me. Plz2fix. In particular, have a look at http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=262277#c4 Where both emerge --info and paludis --info is posted. Sometimes, more is less. While it may be useful to post all the information about the package-manager for *you*, it's not helping us (bug-wranglers) any. We need one screenfull of text that concisely shows us the state of your system. We really can guess a lot from the emerge --info output. We don't really want to care which package manager you're using, apart from a discrete text. Also, we still get people who just post their paludis --info. Could you please put in *bold letters* at the top of that output that it's not the info they'll need when reporting bugs. Thanks, loki_val
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 15:17:30 +0200 Peter Alfredsen loki_...@gentoo.org wrote: While it may be useful to post all the information about the package-manager for *you*, it's not helping us (bug-wranglers) any. We need one screenfull of text that concisely shows us the state of your system. There is no magic way of determining which bits of information are or are not useful. We really can guess a lot from the emerge --info output. 'guess'. Like how you have to guess what use flags are really being used for the package in question, because it doesn't tell you? Also, we still get people who just post their paludis --info. Could you please put in *bold letters* at the top of that output that it's not the info they'll need when reporting bugs. It's in bright pink at the bottom. If people aren't reading that, tell them to start paying attention or buy a mac. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
'guess'. Like how you have to guess what use flags are really being used for the package in question, because it doesn't tell you? i'd like to ask the developers of package managers to standardize this. having packagmanager --info be the same no matter who you like best is incredibly usefull. while we are at it, emerge --info output may or may not be made even more usefull... thanks Thilo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
Thilo Bangert bang...@gentoo.org wrote: 'guess'. Like how you have to guess what use flags are really being used for the package in question, because it doesn't tell you? i'd like to ask the developers of package managers to standardize this. having packagmanager --info be the same no matter who you like best is incredibly usefull. ++ Please, do it. Even an educated guess is better than nothing, raising the probability bug-wranglers can handle the bug even before it hits other devs' inboxes. -- Regards, Matti Bickel Signed/Encrypted email preferred (key 4849EC6C) pgpEH0FPACq8x.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Wednesday 18 of February 2009 23:22:12 Jeroen Roovers wrote: In short, `paludis --info' is not a replacement, and when `emerge --info' is asked for in a bug report, post *that*. Hi Jeroen. If you ask me to post a emerge --info you will get very, but very outdated info. Not much useful. Keep that in mind :). Cheers, Dawid Węgliński
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 23:35:00 +0100 Dawid Węgliński c...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wednesday 18 of February 2009 23:22:12 Jeroen Roovers wrote: In short, `paludis --info' is not a replacement, and when `emerge --info' is asked for in a bug report, post *that*. Hi Jeroen. If you ask me to post a emerge --info you will get very, but very outdated info. Not much useful. Keep that in mind :). Then assemble the info by hand or write a replacement tool that provides the same info. I have outlined what is lacking in `paludis --info' and you're merely underlining that. Kind regards, jer
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 23:22:12 +0100 Jeroen Roovers j...@gentoo.org wrote: Paludis users often seem to think that `paludis --info' and `emerge --info' are interchangeable, whereas a quick inspection reveals to even the most casual user that the former only intends to inform about paludis' own compile time and run time configuration, whereas the latter includes information about a number of critical system packages, the global USE and USE_EXPAND variables and GENTOO_MIRRORS variable, to name a few. ...which is why you ask for 'paludis --info pkg', not 'paludis --info'. That way you get accurate information about pkg, even when users have per-package use flags configured. Much more useful than Portage's misleading output, which just gives global configuration and completely ignores everything else. Heck, Paludis even tells you this if you run --info without a spec: No packages were specified on the command line, so detailed information is not available (Paludis can display detailed information for both installed and installable packages). Please try harder next time. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 22:55:06 + Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: ...which is why you ask for 'paludis --info pkg', not 'paludis --info'. Spread the word! jer
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 22:55:06 + Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: Heck, Paludis even tells you this if you run --info without a spec: No packages were specified on the command line, so detailed information is not available (Paludis can display detailed information for both installed and installable packages). Apparently users aren't picking that up, which is why I started this thread. Please try harder next time. Who? What? jer
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 00:03:24 +0100 Jeroen Roovers j...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 22:55:06 + Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: ...which is why you ask for 'paludis --info pkg', not 'paludis --info'. Spread the word! http://git.pioto.org/gitweb/paludis.git?a=commitdiff;h=86dc61e -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 23:24 +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 00:03:24 +0100 Jeroen Roovers j...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 22:55:06 + Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: ...which is why you ask for 'paludis --info pkg', not 'paludis --info'. Spread the word! http://git.pioto.org/gitweb/paludis.git?a=commitdiff;h=86dc61e could the output of paludis --info be made a little less verbose by eliminating repository information - perhaps except then one containing the package's ebuild - and info about ebuild phases being executed(like Starting builtin_initmisc etc...) ? -- Stelian Ionescu a.k.a. fe[nl]ix Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 00:39:28 +0100 Stelian Ionescu stelian.ionescu-z...@poste.it wrote: could the output of paludis --info be made a little less verbose by eliminating repository information - perhaps except then one containing the package's ebuild That's useful information, so no. and info about ebuild phases being executed(like Starting builtin_initmisc etc...) ? That's there in case something goes wrong. If you unexpectedly get a rm blah: permission denied or whatever, it's helpful if you know *why* something's being removed. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] `paludis --info' is not like `emerge --info'
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 23:24:25 + Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: http://git.pioto.org/gitweb/paludis.git?a=commitdiff;h=86dc61e Thanks. I hope it helps. jer
