Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Simon Budig wrote: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:51:13 +0200 From: Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes. David Neary ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The point, as I see it, is that there's no reason *not* to follow the leader when it comes to keybindings - it makes migration easier for people used to the other app, and makes your app more attractive as an alternative, without removing any functionality, or necessarily making things harder for experienced users. So if it costs nothing (or very little), why not? Uh, making all the long time GIMP users grumpy because the shortcuts they are used to use do no longer work and they have to reconfigure them to the old default costs nothing? You mean the existing GIMP users dont already have custom menurc files? You mean if we provided a GIMP 1.2 menurc for those who wanted it, our current users dont already know how to change a menurc? (we need an Inteface for this, and I need to make sure there is a bug report about it). You mean GIMP doesn't allow you to migrate your old settings when you upgrade to a new version? - Alan H. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
On 4 Aug 2003, at 15:43, Alan Horkan wrote: On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Simon Budig wrote: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:51:13 +0200 From: Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes. David Neary ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The point, as I see it, is that there's no reason *not* to follow the leader when it comes to keybindings - it makes migration easier for people used to the other app, and makes your app more attractive as an alternative, without removing any functionality, or necessarily making things harder for experienced users. So if it costs nothing (or very little), why not? Uh, making all the long time GIMP users grumpy because the shortcuts they are used to use do no longer work and they have to reconfigure them to the old default costs nothing? You mean the existing GIMP users dont already have custom menurc files? You mean if we provided a GIMP 1.2 menurc for those who wanted it, our current users dont already know how to change a menurc? (we need an Inteface for this, and I need to make sure there is a bug report about it). You mean GIMP doesn't allow you to migrate your old settings when you upgrade to a new version? Since I have no way of looking on the harddisks of all GIMP's users, I have no way of knowing, but I am guessing that, indeed, a large number of the current GIMP users do not have custom menurcs, and do not know how to change those. -- branko collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:24:51 +0200, Branko Collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 4 Aug 2003, at 15:43, Alan Horkan wrote: On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Simon Budig wrote: [...] Uh, making all the long time GIMP users grumpy because the shortcuts they are used to use do no longer work and they have to reconfigure them to the old default costs nothing? You mean the existing GIMP users dont already have custom menurc files? You mean if we provided a GIMP 1.2 menurc for those who wanted it, our current users dont already know how to change a menurc? (we need an Inteface for this, and I need to make sure there is a bug report about it). You mean GIMP doesn't allow you to migrate your old settings when you upgrade to a new version? Since I have no way of looking on the harddisks of all GIMP's users, I have no way of knowing, but I am guessing that, indeed, a large number of the current GIMP users do not have custom menurcs, and do not know how to change those. I don't think that it could be done in time for 2.0, but it would have been nice to use a Photoshop-friendly menurc as the default for 2.0 and insert the following stuff in the user installation step: - Check if the user has a ~/.gimp or ~/.gimp-1.2 directory. - If not, install the new menurc without asking any questions. - If yes, insert a page with the following question as part of the user installation dialogs: Version 2.0 of the GIMP comes with a new set of keyboard shortcuts that should be more convenient for new users. You have been using a previous version of the GIMP, so you may want to keep the old shortcuts instead. Please select one of the following options: [X] Use the new GIMP 2.0 shortcuts [ ] Use the old GIMP 1.x shortcuts (not customized) [ ] Copy your existing shortcuts (customized) Now that I think about it, the whole upgrade part is something that would be (have been) very nice to have in 2.0: helping the user to move from an older version of the GIMP to the current one, letting the user choose what should be copied over. -Raphaël ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
Phil Harper wrote: From: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Follow standards, even defacto standards unless there is a damned good reason to do otherwise. make every window manager and desktop just like windows, and every graphics app just like photoshop, every vector app just like illustrator... Not like, but act like, unless something windows/PS/Illustrator dies is dumb. And if you were to be honest, you'd be hard pushed to call any photoshop/windows/illustrator keysettings dumb. Sure, lots of other things are dumb, but then lots of things aren't, and are worth copying. And if there's no cost to changing keybindings to resemble the market leader app, why not? i still don't understand why the keybindings would need to fall inline with P$ simply to make the sofware apeal to a wider audience, The point, as I see it, is that there's no reason *not* to follow the leader when it comes to keybindings - it makes migration easier for people used to the other app, and makes your app more attractive as an alternative, without removing any functionality, or necessarily making things harder for experienced users. So if it costs nothing (or very little), why not? anyway, this is very much a ranty and emotive issue, but probably not an important one, they've changed, we must just accept that i guess. IMHO, usability issues are about the 3rd biggest problem facing the gimp at the moment. Dave. -- David Neary, Lyon, France E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
David Neary ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The point, as I see it, is that there's no reason *not* to follow the leader when it comes to keybindings - it makes migration easier for people used to the other app, and makes your app more attractive as an alternative, without removing any functionality, or necessarily making things harder for experienced users. So if it costs nothing (or very little), why not? Uh, making all the long time GIMP users grumpy because the shortcuts they are used to use do no longer work and they have to reconfigure them to the old default costs nothing? I remember when I was at a small publisher after school and we changed from Pagemaker 4 to Pagemaker 5 and suddenly all the shortcuts were translated into german. It sucked. Badly. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.home.unix-ag.org/simon/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
Hi, On Sunday 03 August 2003 11:51 pm, Simon Budig wrote: Uh, making all the long time GIMP users grumpy because the shortcuts they are used to use do no longer work and they have to reconfigure them to the old default costs nothing? Is it even possible for an end user to do this any more? The old-style point-to-a-menu-and-press-the-shortcut-key redefinition no longer works, even if it's enabled in .gtkrc-2.0, and so far my efforts to define Zoom In back to equals have met with failure - the menurc file keeps getting reset to defaults when The GIMP closes... I remember when I was at a small publisher after school and we changed from Pagemaker 4 to Pagemaker 5 and suddenly all the shortcuts were translated into german. It sucked. Badly. We changed from Pagemaker 6 to 6.5 at work, and the right mouse button no longer zoomed in - it now does context menus instead (though one can hold down control while clicking RMB to zoom). That was 18 months ago, and we still find it a pain... All the best, -- Alastair M. Robinson Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone renounced violence forever? I could then conquer the whole stupid planet with just a butter knife. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
Hi, On Monday 04 August 2003 12:25 am, Simon Budig wrote: There now is an option in the Preferences. I am not sure if this is any different than setting it manually in the GTKrc, but if the preferences toggle does not work it is a bug... :-) Ah yes, that works. Thank you :) All the best, -- Alastair M. Robinson Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] You're an old-timer if you can remember when setting the world on fire was a figure of speech. -- Franklin P. Jones ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
Hi, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so how do you scroll sideways (using the wheel)? is this the same keybinding as Photoshop? Dunno what PS uses but GIMP uses Ctrl. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
From: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: gimp developer list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes. Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 09:48:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so how do you scroll sideways (using the wheel)? is this the same keybinding as Photoshop? Dunno what PS uses but GIMP uses Ctrl. is there some plan that everything in GIMP should fall inline with Photo$hop? those who already use the old ways of doing things probably wont like having their workflow messed with further. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer _ Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
Hi, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Using the wheel for zooming seems like a good idea to me. Please note that I very specifically said that the wheel should by default scroll the page up and down and that Zooming must use a modifier and should be Ctrl+Wheel (dont even get me started on not being able to use Page Up and Page Down to actually scroll Up and Down the page, I would go even more nuts if the scroll wheel didn't allow me to scroll). This functionality was recently added to Dia, you could probably take a look and substantially borrow the same code. GIMP zooms on Shift-wheel since some early 1.1 version. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Sven Neumann wrote: This functionality was recently added to Dia, you could probably take a look and substantially borrow the same code. GIMP zooms on Shift-wheel since some early 1.1 version. damn, another inconsistancy. so how do you scroll sideways (using the wheel)? is this the same keybinding as Photoshop? - Alan ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
Helps if you have a 4D ball mouse (like I do), instead of only a 3D wheel mouse. :-) Seriously though, mainly responding because I want to make sure the Gimp developers know that there ARE mice out there with built-in miniature track balls (2D) on top instead of having only single dimensional wheels on the top. These are known as 4D mice. I wouldn't want any changes made in response to this thread that might prevent the scroll ball on these 4D mice from working properly with the Gimp. Thanks, s/KAM - Original Message - From: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: gimp developer list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 8:59 PM Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes. On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Sven Neumann wrote: This functionality was recently added to Dia, you could probably take a look and substantially borrow the same code. GIMP zooms on Shift-wheel since some early 1.1 version. damn, another inconsistancy. so how do you scroll sideways (using the wheel)? is this the same keybinding as Photoshop? - Alan ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
dOn 01-Aug-2003, Kevin Myers wrote: Helps if you have a 4D ball mouse (like I do), instead of only a 3D wheel mouse. :-) Seriously though, mainly responding because I want to make sure the Gimp developers know that there ARE mice out there with built-in miniature track balls (2D) on top instead of having only single dimensional wheels on the top. These are known as 4D mice. I wouldn't want any changes made in response to this thread that might prevent the scroll ball on these 4D mice from working properly with the Gimp. Thanks, I used to have a similar trackball. It was a trackball, three real buttons, and then two wheels. Most apps I could scroll up and down with the first, and left and right with the second. (Including most gtk1 apps.) It was pretty nice. Alas, the thing died, and radio shack, who I bought it from, no longer was selling them. So, Im now stuck with a llama compaq branded balless mouse. *sigh* I hate comapq. -- Patrick Diablo-D3 McFarland || [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music. -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989 ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
Just in case anyone else is interested in a 4D mouse, here is one example: http://www.iogear.com/products/product.php?Item=GME421 - Original Message - From: Patrick McFarland [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes. dOn 01-Aug-2003, Kevin Myers wrote: Helps if you have a 4D ball mouse (like I do), instead of only a 3D wheel mouse. :-) Seriously though, mainly responding because I want to make sure the Gimp developers know that there ARE mice out there with built-in miniature track balls (2D) on top instead of having only single dimensional wheels on the top. These are known as 4D mice. I wouldn't want any changes made in response to this thread that might prevent the scroll ball on these 4D mice from working properly with the Gimp. Thanks, I used to have a similar trackball. It was a trackball, three real buttons, and then two wheels. Most apps I could scroll up and down with the first, and left and right with the second. (Including most gtk1 apps.) It was pretty nice. Alas, the thing died, and radio shack, who I bought it from, no longer was selling them. So, Im now stuck with a llama compaq branded balless mouse. *sigh* I hate comapq. -- Patrick Diablo-D3 McFarland || [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music. -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989 ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
Hi, Jay Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You have a point, I dont much like the proposed solution though. Any other solution would probably be too complex to implement at this point in the release cycle. We finally got rid of the palettes being copied to the users dir and now you want to copy all files? You must be kidding. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, Jay Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You have a point, I dont much like the proposed solution though. Any other solution would probably be too complex to implement at this point in the release cycle. We finally got rid of the palettes being copied to the users dir and now you want to copy all files? You must be kidding. Not necessarily related, plus how was Jay supposed to know about that? Secret gimp omniscence sauce? He's been back for what, a day? and you expect him to know everything that has been done... But I think that having a list of undesired pallete/gradient/brushes/textures/plugins(?)/etc saved in the gimprc file and having the interface not show them would be the best way of doing things, and shouldn't be that hard to implement. You could even have a button to make them visable again. If that doesn't seem feasable, at least we should ln -s the entries instead of copying them. But that will not work on wincrap :( Rockwalrus ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
On 30 Jul 2003, Jay Cox wrote: This was the first chance I've had to spend quality time with gimp in several years. After this long separation from gimp, I feel that my eyes are pretty fresh. Whho! I think I speak for all of us old fogies when I say, Welcome back! Rockwalrus ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] A fresh pair of eyes.
Welcome back. On 30 Jul 2003, Jay Cox wrote: RECOMMENDATION: gimp should copy (or ln -s?) the system brushes into the users folder when it is launched for the first time. Single user systems will never miss the meg or two this takes. On multiuser systems the admins can prune the system brush library. You have a point, I dont much like the proposed solution though. The round brushes shipped with gimp should be editable. RECOMMENDATION: recreate the round brushes as .vbr brushes. New file formats to be discussed at Gimp Con [1], but recreating the Round brushes as standard brushes sounds good. While we are on brushes I am wondering what kind of information needs to be stored in a Brush file and why does it need a special file type of its own? RECOMMENDATION: Move aforementioned script-fu to the bottom the the main select menu. Do the same with to-pattern and to-image items? (Should probably rewrite the script-fus as native functions) (should the main select menu be renamed to selection???) Please dont. The Select Menu is for making a selection, not manipulating the contents of a selection. Once you have made a selection then the contents of a selection is an Object/Image/Layer and then actions get applied to it, the current image. It requires two key presses (shift and =/+) to zoom-in which is one of the most common operations that gets used. (this is on US keyboards) RECOMMENDATION: accept '=' and '+' to zoom in. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94910 Both + and = should work, with + being the default label. Anything else is just a nightmare for international users. I would prefer if GIMP used Ctrl++ Zoom In and Ctrl+- as the default labelled keybindings in the menus, as well as the above keybindings. Additionally setup mouse button shortcuts for zooming in and out. Perhaps ctrl-middle for zoom in, and ctrl-shift-middle for zoom out. This will keep peoples left hand on left side of the keyboard and their right hand on the mouse which is exactly where they belong. (is it a pita to have multiple keyboard shortcuts for the same item?) I dont know about old Unix three button mice, I expect more users have Wheel Mice instead so I really hope any changes you make wont adversly affect them (and me). Zooming with a Wheel Mouse should definately Ctrl+Wheel (up down == Zoom in out) users already expect this from other applications. Wheel should scroll the page up and down, and Shift+Wheel should Scroll sideways. I know Paint Shop Pro uses the Middle Click of a Wheel Mouse to Zoom In but I never considered trying to use it with a Shift/Ctrl modifier. Thats enough for now. I'll add the important stuff in here to bugzilla tomorrow. PS: I was skeptical at first, but I am happy with a 2.0 designation for the next release of gimp. Sincerely Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ [1] Snowballs chance in hell I'll be able to afford to go to GIMP Con, I only hope that people will take some notes and put up a short summary of some of what gets discussed. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
