Re: [Gimp-gui] Toolbox Groups

[Elle Stone]

On 10/16/2015 03:31 PM, Andrew Pullins wrote:


No matter how much I like the current UI, and no matter how much
Andrew doesn't like it, neither of us can speak for "most users".
That would require a very carefully done survey, which likely would
reveal that there's no such thing as "most GIMP users". But perhaps
there are "exemplar" types of users and workflows, with different UI
preferences.


See everything you pointed out is exactly why I love GIMP.  GIMP enables
you to make your own workflow.  You want multi window mode go for it,
no? single window is there two. want the tool box on the right? want
dialogs on top of each other, beside each other, blow or beside the
toolbox?  don't like the tools that are showing by default or the order
it is in? change it to fit your needs.

You would be horrified to work in my environment as im am sure I would
in yours.  This feature would make my workflow way better and the best
part is you don't have to use grouped tools if you don't want to.  I
have my suggestions on default groups based upon how I would set it up
if this feature were to be implemented if the community were to like the
default.  Obviously there are those who do not so I think it would be
best not to set default groups.

I am fine with that.  But let me modify my toolbox the way I want it. I
am going to do that anyway and this would make my workflow even better
for me.



It might not seem that way, but I think just about all of your 
suggestions are well-thought out and would work nicely to solve various 
problems with arranging the available screen real estate for 
accomplishing various editing tasks. It was the "most users" part that 
was troublesome. Which combined with some of Alexandre's comments on the 
Toolbox has motivated me to reiterate that surely some people are very 
happy with the current setup.


If someone were to make a survey on what works well for which users, 
maybe the very first questions should be "What's the screen diameter, 
what is the aspect ratio and number of pixels, and is the screen 
freestanding or attached to a tablet or laptop, and are there multiple 
screens, or just one?" Because what works well for a small screen is 
probably rather different from what works well for a large screen.


The next question might be "Do you prefer single or multiple window 
mode, and why?" This seems to be a "personal style" sort of choice.


Followed by "What editing tasks do you most often use GIMP for? What's 
your typical workflow?"


Followed by questions like "What tools from the toolbox do you use most 
often, and which ones do you seldom or never use? Which operations do 
you access through the drop-down/right-click menus, and which ones via 
shortcuts?"


And (perhaps including a screenshot), "Which dialogs do you regularly 
keep open, and which ones do you seldom or never use? How do you arrange 
the dialogs and Toolbox on the screen?"


What questions do you think might be good to ask in a survey, if the 
goal is to more efficiently and effectively accomodate various workflows 
on various display screens? Hopefully without accidentally throwing out 
what currently works well for at least some users (maybe the users least 
likely to subscribe to a mailing list about the GIMP UI are the users 
who like the current UI).

Re: [Gimp-gui] Toolbox Groups

[Andrew Pullins]

>
> Hmm, see, none of us is "most users".
>
> On the one hand, I can see how Andrew's suggestions make sense for some
> people and some workflows.
>
> On the other hand, personally I would be horrified if I had to use a
> Toolbox that works the way Andrew is suggesting. I have all seven selection
> tools lined up, ready for use, along with almost all of the other tools
> that can be put in the toolbox, and that works really well. And I find the
> LibreOffice UI to be one of the worst UIs I've ever had to deal with.
>
> People who like things the way they are usually don't feel motivated to
> speak up and say so.
>
> I like the GIMP Toolbox just the way it is.
> I like being able to move the Toolbox around and resize it at will.
> I like having all the tools and my preferred dialogs in the Toolbox, and I
> like being able to pull a dialog out to stand on its own when I want to.
> I like working in Full Screen mode, with the ability to pull the Toolbox
> up only when needed, otherwise having it hidden behind the image.
> In my opinion, the people who put together the current GIMP UI did a
> totally outstanding job.
>
> No matter how much I like the current UI, and no matter how much Andrew
> doesn't like it, neither of us can speak for "most users". That would
> require a very carefully done survey, which likely would reveal that
> there's no such thing as "most GIMP users". But perhaps there are
> "exemplar" types of users and workflows, with different UI preferences.


See everything you pointed out is exactly why I love GIMP.  GIMP enables
you to make your own workflow.  You want multi window mode go for it, no?
single window is there two. want the tool box on the right? want dialogs on
top of each other, beside each other, blow or beside the toolbox?  don't
like the tools that are showing by default or the order it is in? change it
to fit your needs.

You would be horrified to work in my environment as im am sure I would in
yours.  This feature would make my workflow way better and the best part is
you don't have to use grouped tools if you don't want to.  I have my
suggestions on default groups based upon how I would set it up if this
feature were to be implemented if the community were to like the default.
Obviously there are those who do not so I think it would be best not to set
default groups.

I am fine with that.  But let me modify my toolbox the way I want it. I am
going to do that anyway and this would make my workflow even better for me.

--
Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Praise be unto God for giving us a way to live
with him.




  

Re: [Gimp-gui] Toolbox Groups

[Elle Stone]

On 10/16/2015 01:30 PM, Andrew Pullins wrote:

...Wouldn't most users end at first create various toolbox because
they think it's a cool idea at first then end up always using the
same (the one with all the tools) because they get used to it the
most? ...

What?  Are you saying that most users would just end up adding all the
tools into one group?  This would not make any since.

I thought about the exact same examples, and then I realize that
sometimes photographers would use the paint tools too (to make small
fixes here and there, to change selections in quick mask mode, etc.)
and that many painters would still use other tools (selections,
warp, transformations, etc.).
So would you really want to hide them (hence make it more difficult
to get to them) even if to use it once every hour? At first this
could look like a good idea but I really wonder if it will hold with
the time.


You don't need to see all the tools at the same time. for example the
selection tools.  If you think about them in a general since then there
are three groups of selection tools.  perfect select(rectangle/ellipse),
Free hand, and computer select (letting GIMP decide what to select).  I
don't really want to see seven tools when I could only have three
groups.  If you are looking for the rectangle select and you see the
ellipse tool you know that you need to go into the group to select the
rectangle select.  I rarely use select by color or foreground select(I
don't even know what foreground select does) If I want to roughly select
an area I always go to the fuzzy select tool.  So I always just hide
them anyway.  But there always comes that time when fuzzy selecting all
the red in an image is ridiculous and I need the select by color tool.
So I have to go back to the toolbox menu and pull it out (I know about
the tool menu but I don't ever think about looking in there).  It would
be more beneficial for someone like me to just have these tools
selected. and If you or the photographer does not like this then you
don't have to group them.

You can already organize where things are by ordering tools in
preferences > toolbox. Though clearly this is a good example of not
very good UI. Basically many of the things we have which requires to
go to the preferences are not very good in my opinion because I end
up nearly never go there to customize (or forgetting you even could).


Maybe you should be able to right click the toolbox and it would bring
up a context menu with edit that would bring you straight to the edit
toolbox menu like LibreOffice does.  This would also be nice to put in
the tool menu.  You could even make it its make this its own window like
the shortcut window.  But I would rather it still be available in
preferences.


Hmm, see, none of us is "most users".

On the one hand, I can see how Andrew's suggestions make sense for some 
people and some workflows.


On the other hand, personally I would be horrified if I had to use a 
Toolbox that works the way Andrew is suggesting. I have all seven 
selection tools lined up, ready for use, along with almost all of the 
other tools that can be put in the toolbox, and that works really well. 
And I find the LibreOffice UI to be one of the worst UIs I've ever had 
to deal with.


People who like things the way they are usually don't feel motivated to 
speak up and say so.


I like the GIMP Toolbox just the way it is.
I like being able to move the Toolbox around and resize it at will.
I like having all the tools and my preferred dialogs in the Toolbox, and 
I like being able to pull a dialog out to stand on its own when I want to.
I like working in Full Screen mode, with the ability to pull the Toolbox 
up only when needed, otherwise having it hidden behind the image.
In my opinion, the people who put together the current GIMP UI did a 
totally outstanding job.


No matter how much I like the current UI, and no matter how much Andrew 
doesn't like it, neither of us can speak for "most users". That would 
require a very carefully done survey, which likely would reveal that 
there's no such thing as "most GIMP users". But perhaps there are 
"exemplar" types of users and workflows, with different UI preferences.


Best,
Elle

Re: [Gimp-gui] Toolbox Groups

[Andrew Pullins]

>
> ...Wouldn't most users end at first create various toolbox because they
> think it's a cool idea at first then end up always using the same (the one
> with all the tools) because they get used to it the most? ...
>

What?  Are you saying that most users would just end up adding all the
tools into one group?  This would not make any since.

I thought about the exact same examples, and then I realize that sometimes
> photographers would use the paint tools too (to make small fixes here and
> there, to change selections in quick mask mode, etc.) and that many
> painters would still use other tools (selections, warp, transformations,
> etc.).
> So would you really want to hide them (hence make it more difficult to get
> to them) even if to use it once every hour? At first this could look like a
> good idea but I really wonder if it will hold with the time.
>

You don't need to see all the tools at the same time. for example the
selection tools.  If you think about them in a general since then there are
three groups of selection tools.  perfect select(rectangle/ellipse), Free
hand, and computer select (letting GIMP decide what to select).  I don't
really want to see seven tools when I could only have three groups.  If you
are looking for the rectangle select and you see the ellipse tool you know
that you need to go into the group to select the rectangle select.  I
rarely use select by color or foreground select(I don't even know what
foreground select does) If I want to roughly select an area I always go to
the fuzzy select tool.  So I always just hide them anyway.  But there
always comes that time when fuzzy selecting all the red in an image is
ridiculous and I need the select by color tool.  So I have to go back to
the toolbox menu and pull it out (I know about the tool menu but I don't
ever think about looking in there).  It would be more beneficial for
someone like me to just have these tools selected. and If you or the
photographer does not like this then you don't have to group them.


> You can already organize where things are by ordering tools in preferences
> > toolbox. Though clearly this is a good example of not very good UI.
> Basically many of the things we have which requires to go to the
> preferences are not very good in my opinion because I end up nearly never
> go there to customize (or forgetting you even could).


Maybe you should be able to right click the toolbox and it would bring up a
context menu with edit that would bring you straight to the edit toolbox
menu like LibreOffice does.  This would also be nice to put in the tool
menu.  You could even make it its make this its own window like the
shortcut window.  But I would rather it still be available in preferences.

--
Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Praise be unto God for giving us a way to live
with him.




  

Re: [Gimp-gui] Toolbox Groups

[Jehan]

Hi,

On 2015-10-15 18:55, Akkana Peck wrote:

On 2015-10-15 01:51, Andrew Pullins wrote:
>To improve user experience I propose toolbox groups. Attached is an
>image showing how this could be done. In Preferences > Toolbox there


Jehan writes:
This is an interesting idea, but I wonder if we can't do better than 
this.
It does not feel that efficient to me to basically have submenus on 
tools.


I didn't entirely understand how the tools would be grouped and how
the groups would look, but I like the idea of "Toolbox groups" and
made me think of another way we could group tools.

What if you could have more than one Toolbox arrangement? For
instance, sometimes I'm primarily editing photos, and most of what
I'm doing involves Crop, Scale, Brightness/Contrast/Curves, Rotate,
maybe Clone and Smudge and Dodge/Burn, and selection tools. I don't
need any drawing tools. Other times I'm drawing, and I need the
Paintbrush, Text, Move, Smudge, Paths etc.


I actually thought at first this was the proposition from reading the 
thread title (then I read the email and saw that was a completely 
different concept).


I also thought this was an interesting idea though I am not sure how it 
would go when confronted to real life. Wouldn't most users end at first 
create various toolbox because they think it's a cool idea at first then 
end up always using the same (the one with all the tools) because they 
get used to it the most?


This is pretty similar to the idea of profiles from another thread (the 
profile idea includes the concept of toolbox arrangement) by the way.



What if I could have multiple toolbox arrangements? If I'm drawing,
I see only the tools I need for that; if I'm photo editing, I see
only those tools. And there's a Show All version for when I'm doing
something unusual or learning new skills.


I thought about the exact same examples, and then I realize that 
sometimes photographers would use the paint tools too (to make small 
fixes here and there, to change selections in quick mask mode, etc.) and 
that many painters would still use other tools (selections, warp, 
transformations, etc.).
So would you really want to hide them (hence make it more difficult to 
get to them) even if to use it once every hour? At first this could look 
like a good idea but I really wonder if it will hold with the time.



To create a new toolbox, a new window comes up, I can name it and
then drag tools from the "Show All" toolbox into the new window.
(Ideally I can also choose the location of each tool in the new 
toolbox.)


Switching between toolboxes could be like setting tool option
presets (though I'd hope it would be a bit clearer than that: I've
lost presets more than once because of confusing the "Save new
preset" and "Restore preset" buttons, which are right next to each
other and have almost identical looking menus.)

I like Andrew's idea of spacers too, and of generally being able to
choose where things go in the toolbox. That would help in grouping
tools and telling tools apart. Like fuzzy select and the color
picker: I can never remember which icon is which, but if fuzzy
select was clearly grouped with the selection tools and the color
picker was somewhere else, far away from fuzzy select, it would be a
lot easier to tell them apart. Same with clone and perspective clone,
or Move and Alignment.


You can already organize where things are by ordering tools in 
preferences > toolbox. Though clearly this is a good example of not very 
good UI. Basically many of the things we have which requires to go to 
the preferences are not very good in my opinion because I end up nearly 
never go there to customize (or forgetting you even could).


Jehan


...Akkana
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Re: [Gimp-gui] Toolbox Groups

[Akkana Peck]

> On 2015-10-15 01:51, Andrew Pullins wrote:
> >To improve user experience I propose toolbox groups. Attached is an
> >image showing how this could be done. In Preferences > Toolbox there

Jehan writes:
> This is an interesting idea, but I wonder if we can't do better than this.
> It does not feel that efficient to me to basically have submenus on tools.

I didn't entirely understand how the tools would be grouped and how
the groups would look, but I like the idea of "Toolbox groups" and
made me think of another way we could group tools.

What if you could have more than one Toolbox arrangement? For
instance, sometimes I'm primarily editing photos, and most of what
I'm doing involves Crop, Scale, Brightness/Contrast/Curves, Rotate,
maybe Clone and Smudge and Dodge/Burn, and selection tools. I don't
need any drawing tools. Other times I'm drawing, and I need the
Paintbrush, Text, Move, Smudge, Paths etc.

What if I could have multiple toolbox arrangements? If I'm drawing,
I see only the tools I need for that; if I'm photo editing, I see
only those tools. And there's a Show All version for when I'm doing
something unusual or learning new skills.

To create a new toolbox, a new window comes up, I can name it and
then drag tools from the "Show All" toolbox into the new window.
(Ideally I can also choose the location of each tool in the new toolbox.)

Switching between toolboxes could be like setting tool option
presets (though I'd hope it would be a bit clearer than that: I've
lost presets more than once because of confusing the "Save new
preset" and "Restore preset" buttons, which are right next to each
other and have almost identical looking menus.)

I like Andrew's idea of spacers too, and of generally being able to
choose where things go in the toolbox. That would help in grouping
tools and telling tools apart. Like fuzzy select and the color
picker: I can never remember which icon is which, but if fuzzy
select was clearly grouped with the selection tools and the color
picker was somewhere else, far away from fuzzy select, it would be a
lot easier to tell them apart. Same with clone and perspective clone,
or Move and Alignment.

...Akkana

Re: [Gimp-gui] Toolbox Groups

[Andrew Pullins]

Im not sure if I posted this to the group.

> This is an interesting idea, but I wonder if we can't do better than
this. It does not feel that efficient to me to basically have submenus on
tools.

> I'm wondering if some better user experience cannot be achieved to deal
with the fact that GIMP has more and more tools (*), so now I'm waiting
from inputs from you all. :-)
>
> Jehan
>
> (*) Of course one such idea could be to get rid of some tools, like I
wish it were possible with the Unified Transform Tool (replacing other
transform tools) if we could get better controls there!

The unified transform tool is coming and could replace most of the other
tools.  It is a great tool but it does not replace the flip tool, and the
move tool(I don't think), or the cage tool.  Thus even if the user decides
they don't want to see the tool or the devs pull it out, there still would
be a use to group the transform tool.

In my case I hide a lot of the toolbox, but there always comes a time when
I need to pull out a tool that I have hidden. For example the select by
color tool.  It is rare that the fuzzy selection tool can't do what I want
and need to select all the same color but there are times.  The same goes
with the stamp toll vs the heal tool, don't always need the heal tool but
it is still a good tool to have around.  Not to mention all the color tools
and the GEGL tools, I don't ever use them but that's not to say that I
won't ever find a use for them.  Currently GIMP hides them by default, this
is because that would be way too many tools.  If they were grouped then
they could be brought out making them more visible.  Im sure there are
users who don't even know they exist.

This is why I purpose that similar tools be grouped together.  If not by
default then let the user decide whether they want to group tools.

--
Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Praise be unto God for giving us a way to live
with him.




  

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/15/15, Andrew Pullins  wrote:
>
> > To improve user experience I propose toolbox groups. Attached is an
> > image showing how this could be done. In Preferences > Toolbox there
> > would be a new folder button to add folder groups. Use the up and down
> > arrows or Drag tool into folders to add them to groups.  when tools
> > are selected they are displayed at the top of the tool group(in the
> > Toolbox not the group menu). This feature would go nicely with the
> > Toolbox Spacer feature request.
>
> I'm afraid that this is another band-aid request.
>
> It's true that the amount of tools keeps increasing. But many tools
> could be effectively combined into one, e.g.:
>
> 1) Selection tools (we had a failed GSoC project on that).
> 2) Cage transform and N-Point tools.
>
> Also, we already have Universal Transform Tool that could completely
> replace standalone transformation tools, if it was given ability to
> define exact transform values (there has been a lot of argument about
> that in the past).
>
> So, again, let's not go for band-aids as long as we can, please.
>
> Alex
> ___
> gimp-gui-list mailing list
> gimp-gui-list@gnome.org
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>

Re: [Gimp-gui] Toolbox Groups

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 10/15/15, Andrew Pullins  wrote:

> To improve user experience I propose toolbox groups. Attached is an
> image showing how this could be done. In Preferences > Toolbox there
> would be a new folder button to add folder groups. Use the up and down
> arrows or Drag tool into folders to add them to groups.  when tools
> are selected they are displayed at the top of the tool group(in the
> Toolbox not the group menu). This feature would go nicely with the
> Toolbox Spacer feature request.

I'm afraid that this is another band-aid request.

It's true that the amount of tools keeps increasing. But many tools
could be effectively combined into one, e.g.:

1) Selection tools (we had a failed GSoC project on that).
2) Cage transform and N-Point tools.

Also, we already have Universal Transform Tool that could completely
replace standalone transformation tools, if it was given ability to
define exact transform values (there has been a lot of argument about
that in the past).

So, again, let's not go for band-aids as long as we can, please.

Alex

Re: [Gimp-gui] Toolbox Groups

[Jehan]

Hi,

On 2015-10-15 01:51, Andrew Pullins wrote:

Feature Request [1], attachment 313344 [2]

#User Story

As a user with a small vertical screen estate my toolbox pushes the
foreground & background color, active brush, pattern & gradient, and
active image down past the window. Depending on the screen size some
of the tools even get pushed down. To fix this I have to make the tool
box wider to fit more tools in the toolbox and even take away tools. A
wider tool box takes up room on my canvas which is the most important
dialog.

#Details

To improve user experience I propose toolbox groups. Attached is an
image showing how this could be done. In Preferences > Toolbox there
would be a new folder button to add folder groups. Use the up and down
arrows or Drag tool into folders to add them to groups. when tools are
selected they are displayed at the top of the tool group(in the
Toolbox not the group menu). This feature would go nicely with the
Toolbox Spacer feature request.


This is an interesting idea, but I wonder if we can't do better than 
this. It does not feel that efficient to me to basically have submenus 
on tools.
I'm wondering if some better user experience cannot be achieved to deal 
with the fact that GIMP has more and more tools (*), so now I'm waiting 
from inputs from you all. :-)


Jehan

(*) Of course one such idea could be to get rid of some tools, like I 
wish it were possible with the Unified Transform Tool (replacing other 
transform tools) if we could get better controls there!