Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Paul Naude wrote: Thanks for the reply Ken It sounds like you received such a reply once and if that indeed is true, it is very sad, because when we start closing doors to the masses, we are on our way to become isolated and later forgotten, regardless of what great things we might have accomplished. Paul, As for closing doors to the masses, here is an example. I'm in the process of interviewing a free software developer who does software, where each release is downloaded like 400 times. Around the globe. And there are, like, 2 releases a year. Yet the guy has his own little grateful community and is more than happy to interact with it. So here is something I'd like you to understand: the point is not about trying to make everyone happy. The point is to work for a target audience and make the right tool for it, while having lots of fun, because you are interacting with people who understand your decisions and speak same language as yours. You can see it as alienation. Well, _I_ see it as a chance for other developers to create new / improve existing editors that would appeal to a wider audience that didn't agree with the direction we've chosen. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?
I just summarized the common responses to concerns about the Save/Export redesign. Personally, I'll be sticking with 2.6 until the current crop of developers move on to some more rewarding tasks and are replaced by more agile and reasonable people. On 8/20/2012 8:49 AM, Paul Naude wrote: Thanks for the reply Ken It sounds like you received such a reply once and if that indeed is true, it is very sad, because when we start closing doors to the masses, we are on our way to become isolated and later forgotten, regardless of what great things we might have accomplished. I would hate to one day be a regular user of Microsoft PaintPro*! *my own name for a possibly beefed up MS Paint or a very old GIMP version ;-) Paul ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?
Alexandre Prokoudine ha scritto: Paul, As for closing doors to the masses, here is an example. I'm in the process of interviewing a free software developer who does software, where each release is downloaded like 400 times. Around the globe. And there are, like, 2 releases a year. Yet the guy has his own little grateful community and is more than happy to interact with it. So here is something I'd like you to understand: the point is not about trying to make everyone happy. The point is to work for a target audience and make the right tool for it, while having lots of fun, because you are interacting with people who understand your decisions and speak same language as yours. You can see it as alienation. Well, _I_ see it as a chance for other developers to create new / improve existing editors that would appeal to a wider audience that didn't agree with the direction we've chosen. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list Sorry if I jump in the discussion so out of nowhere ( I'm currently reading it because I use Gimp even if I'm not a professional). I can understand your ( I mean your and developers') reasons, even if in the case of GIMP and other software I don't totally agree. But reading it I'm realizing that maybe I've lost an important piece of information: Does the target GIMP are really just Professionals ( photographers , or image editors)? I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem. Well anyway best regards Alessia ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?
I for one certainly hope you leap in and lead these reasonable people to the promised land! I too am dreadfully weary of unreasonable and lethargic developers. Now, until that happens, can we talk about something else? Thanks- Jim Clark From: Ken Warner kwarner...@verizon.net To: Paul Naude p.na...@esteq.com, Cc: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Date: 08/21/2012 08:12 AM Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated? Sent by: gimp-user-list-boun...@gnome.org I just summarized the common responses to concerns about the Save/Export redesign. Personally, I'll be sticking with 2.6 until the current crop of developers move on to some more rewarding tasks and are replaced by more agile and reasonable people. On 8/20/2012 8:49 AM, Paul Naude wrote: Thanks for the reply Ken It sounds like you received such a reply once and if that indeed is true, it is very sad, because when we start closing doors to the masses, we are on our way to become isolated and later forgotten, regardless of what great things we might have accomplished. I would hate to one day be a regular user of Microsoft PaintPro*! *my own name for a possibly beefed up MS Paint or a very old GIMP version ;-) Paul ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?
Hi Alessia. Alessia (ale...@gmail.com) wrote: I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem. Yes, we are targeting professional users when doing further development on the user interface. However, please do not take this as a rejection of non-professionals. It is basically a guideline at whose needs we look first, when we have no idea what to do. We want to streamline the use for professionals, but if there is something we can do to help the non-pro - and it does not interfere with the professionals workflow it probably will be considered and added. We certainly do not have the goal to make life harder for non-pros. The whole save vs. export discussion unfortunately is not very productive, since a group of very vocal people has decided that we did this just to alienate them and their workflow. At the same time they choose to just disregard our explanations as stupid and/or pointless. I see and fully understand that this change is quite disruptive on established usage patterns and finger-memory-habits, but we were fully aware of this and firmly believe, that the change is one for the better. We believe that it is not impossible to adapt to a new keyboard shortcut and we gain a lot of confidence in the program, because it no longer lies about the saved state of my multi-layered image. Which - to my understanding - is something even non-pros deal with soon after starting with the Gimp. Unless of course they just use Gimp as a fancy format conversion and color correction tool. I hope this helps, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?
Simon Budig ha scritto: Hi Alessia. Alessia (ale...@gmail.com) wrote: I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem. Yes, we are targeting professional users when doing further development on the user interface. However, please do not take this as a rejection of non-professionals. It is basically a guideline at whose needs we look first, when we have no idea what to do. We want to streamline the use for professionals, but if there is something we can do to help the non-pro - and it does not interfere with the professionals workflow it probably will be considered and added. We certainly do not have the goal to make life harder for non-pros. The whole save vs. export discussion unfortunately is not very productive, since a group of very vocal people has decided that we did this just to alienate them and their workflow. At the same time they choose to just disregard our explanations as stupid and/or pointless. I see and fully understand that this change is quite disruptive on established usage patterns and finger-memory-habits, but we were fully aware of this and firmly believe, that the change is one for the better. We believe that it is not impossible to adapt to a new keyboard shortcut and we gain a lot of confidence in the program, because it no longer lies about the saved state of my multi-layered image. Which - to my understanding - is something even non-pros deal with soon after starting with the Gimp. Unless of course they just use Gimp as a fancy format conversion and color correction tool. I hope this helps, Simon Hi Simon, thank you for your answer, I just wanted to make clear a personal doubt. I think that maybe, as you already said, the great problem here is become accustomed with the new behavior. Many people like me are not used to it, yet and maybe it's because they feel it annoying. By the way I usually save in Gimp native format when I think I'll have to work on an image later. I've to begin to remember to export it in my favorite format when the work is done. Well yes, this discussion is not the more productive ever, also maybe some recent comments were a little too concise. But I guess this sometimes happens Best regards Alessia ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?
On 08/21/2012 03:12 PM, Alessia wrote: I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem. Hi Preventing the user from choosing takes away Gimp from the professional world. Moreover, in this case, it's the same problem for amateur and professionnal. I said, many times here and somewhere else, this new Gimp behaviour concerning save function is a regression. To be positive, I propose Gimp gives the choice with two possibilities concerning save : the (normal) Gimp-2.6 way and the recent Gimp-2.8 way for those who like it. Everyone will agree, no more war... This becomes very annoying to the reputation of Gimp. Regards -- Maderios ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?
On 21 August 2012 10:12, Alessia ale...@gmail.com wrote: Alexandre Prokoudine ha scritto: Sorry if I jump in the discussion so out of nowhere ( I'm currently reading it because I use Gimp even if I'm not a professional). I can understand your ( I mean your and developers') reasons, even if in the case of GIMP and other software I don't totally agree. But reading it I'm realizing that maybe I've lost an important piece of information: Does the target GIMP are really just Professionals ( photographers , or image editors)? Of course not. The only thing that has changed is that it is now very hard for one to shoot oneself on the foot by opening an image, playing around with it, and overwriting the original without really meaning it. What happened I think could be called enforcement of the perception that an Image open in GIMP is more than a single-layer, flat thing, with no layers, no selection, etc... On explaining why this approach is preferred, the developers use to say something along changes in the program are geared towards making the tools better for professionals . People disliking the feature, uses a twiwsted logic normally only seem in jokes and childish plays to say if it is good for pros, it is bad for amateurs. Based on the fact that there is no going back on this development decision, unhappy people started this crying as if GIMP developers where their enemies. that is so even though nothing prevents one of assigning whatever shortcuts he wants to the export menu options, (I missed the part about the confirmation for closing, when leaving GIMP - but that, as shown, can be simply changed by a two liner script as Akanna had done) And it is really that: not any o f the other fantastic features included in GIMP 2.8 is been commented upon, and none of them changes the way of working of anybody - instead, they just add even more possibilities for great and fantastic work by amateurs and professionals alike. (resource tagging, paint dynamics, new tools, etc...) I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem. Well anyway best regards Alessia ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?
The paradigm for saving work was figured out and became a standard action years ago. New; Open; Save; Save As; have all the functionality that is needed. Along with a few carefully thought out warning dialogs -- that's all that is needed. If one is really concerned about losing work, one should just New an XCF file to start with. It all flows naturally from that. Seems to me that professionals earn that title by *not* losing work. Ok Alex -- let the insults fly On 8/21/2012 7:05 AM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: On 21 August 2012 10:12, Alessiaale...@gmail.com wrote: Alexandre Prokoudine ha scritto: Sorry if I jump in the discussion so out of nowhere ( I'm currently reading it because I use Gimp even if I'm not a professional). I can understand your ( I mean your and developers') reasons, even if in the case of GIMP and other software I don't totally agree. But reading it I'm realizing that maybe I've lost an important piece of information: Does the target GIMP are really just Professionals ( photographers , or image editors)? Of course not. The only thing that has changed is that it is now very hard for one to shoot oneself on the foot by opening an image, playing around with it, and overwriting the original without really meaning it. What happened I think could be called enforcement of the perception that an Image open in GIMP is more than a single-layer, flat thing, with no layers, no selection, etc... On explaining why this approach is preferred, the developers use to say something along changes in the program are geared towards making the tools better for professionals . People disliking the feature, uses a twiwsted logic normally only seem in jokes and childish plays to say if it is good for pros, it is bad for amateurs. Based on the fact that there is no going back on this development decision, unhappy people started this crying as if GIMP developers where their enemies. that is so even though nothing prevents one of assigning whatever shortcuts he wants to the export menu options, (I missed the part about the confirmation for closing, when leaving GIMP - but that, as shown, can be simply changed by a two liner script as Akanna had done) And it is really that: not any o f the other fantastic features included in GIMP 2.8 is been commented upon, and none of them changes the way of working of anybody - instead, they just add even more possibilities for great and fantastic work by amateurs and professionals alike. (resource tagging, paint dynamics, new tools, etc...) I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem. Well anyway best regards Alessia ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?
Joao S. O. Bueno ha scritto: On 21 August 2012 10:12, Alessia ale...@gmail.com wrote: Alexandre Prokoudine ha scritto: Sorry if I jump in the discussion so out of nowhere ( I'm currently reading it because I use Gimp even if I'm not a professional). I can understand your ( I mean your and developers') reasons, even if in the case of GIMP and other software I don't totally agree. But reading it I'm realizing that maybe I've lost an important piece of information: Does the target GIMP are really just Professionals ( photographers , or image editors)? Of course not. The only thing that has changed is that it is now very hard for one to shoot oneself on the foot by opening an image, playing around with it, and overwriting the original without really meaning it. well. You are right I 'ven't yet thought of this scenario but now that I've thought about it I think that when I'll become used to the new save feature I'll be able to spare my brain the little thrill everytime it felt when I was about to press the save button, because times ago I've done this mistake quite frequently and I was really pissed of of my own dumbness. If one explains things like this everything is more understandable and maybe there are less misunderstandings. Thank you for the explanation, Best regards Alessia What happened I think could be called enforcement of the perception that an Image open in GIMP is more than a single-layer, flat thing, with no layers, no selection, etc... On explaining why this approach is preferred, the developers use to say something along changes in the program are geared towards making the tools better for professionals . People disliking the feature, uses a twiwsted logic normally only seem in jokes and childish plays to say if it is good for pros, it is bad for amateurs. Based on the fact that there is no going back on this development decision, unhappy people started this crying as if GIMP developers where their enemies. that is so even though nothing prevents one of assigning whatever shortcuts he wants to the export menu options, (I missed the part about the confirmation for closing, when leaving GIMP - but that, as shown, can be simply changed by a two liner script as Akanna had done) And it is really that: not any o f the other fantastic features included in GIMP 2.8 is been commented upon, and none of them changes the way of working of anybody - instead, they just add even more possibilities for great and fantastic work by amateurs and professionals alike. (resource tagging, paint dynamics, new tools, etc...) I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem. Well anyway best regards Alessia ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?
Ken Warner ha scritto: The paradigm for saving work was figured out and became a standard action years ago. New; Open; Save; Save As; have all the functionality that is needed. Along with a few carefully thought out warning dialogs -- that's all that is needed. If one is really concerned about losing work, one should just New an XCF file to start with. It all flows naturally from that. Seems to me that professionals earn that title by *not* losing work. Ok Alex -- let the insults fly Sorry but the asking mail is mine not Alexandre's, the quote is incorrent ( I apologize for this). And I m not going to insult nobody 'cause is just a waste of time. Alessia ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:05:37 -0300 From: gwid...@mpc.com.br To: ale...@gmail.com CC: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated? And it is really that: not any o f the other fantastic features included in GIMP 2.8 is been commented upon, and none of them changes the way of working of anybody - instead, they just add even more possibilities for great and fantastic work by amateurs and professionals alike. (resource tagging, paint dynamics, new tools, etc...) Oh, paint dynamics have been commented on at least, and not in the good way. Its new implementation is genuinely flawed and needs to be significantly (if not completely) re-thought out to be useful on a practical level. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
[Gimp-user] GIF layers
Hello, Is there a way to select all the layers in the Layers Window? is: I've got a GIF animation that's comprised of 590 individual layers, and to work on specific layers, It'd be convenient to be able to hide all the layers other than the layer I'm working on - maybe with a dialog under LayersStackSelect all LayersHide, or an eye checkbox at the top or bottom of the Layers window that would select all layers, thereby allowing me to unhide the selected layer by checking the eye ,(show), checkbox of the relevant layer. Currently, the only way I know of to work on a specific layer within such a stack is to move the layer to the top of the stack so it becomes the visible layer, perform the work, then return the layer to its original location. Thanks -- ubuntulistener (via gimpusers.com) ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] GIF layers
ubuntulistener (for...@gimpusers.com) wrote: It'd be convenient to be able to hide all the layers other than the layer I'm working on Shift-Click on the eye icon. Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] GIF layers
On 08/21/2012 01:24 PM, Marco Ciampa wrote: On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 08:50:27PM +0200, ubuntulistener wrote: Hello, Is there a way to select all the layers in the Layers Window? is: I've got a GIF animation that's comprised of 590 individual layers, and to work on specific layers, It'd be convenient to be able to hide all the layers other than the layer I'm working on - maybe with a dialog under LayersStackSelect all LayersHide, or an eye checkbox at the top or bottom of the Layers window that would select all layers, thereby allowing me to unhide the selected layer by checking the eye ,(show), checkbox of the relevant layer. Currently, the only way I know of to work on a specific layer within such a stack is to move the layer to the top of the stack so it becomes the visible layer, perform the work, then return the layer to its original location. Thanks Why not read the wondeful GIMP manual? It is even translated... ;-) http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-dialogs-structure.html#gimp-layer-dialog Layer visibility In front of the thumbnail is an icon showing an eye. By clicking on the eye, you toggle whether the layer is visible or not. (Shift-clicking on the eye causes all other to be temporarily hidden.) The word temporarily is misleading. The other layers remain hidden until their eye icon is clicked. However, this is hardly worth a bug report. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] GIF layers
On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 01:39:10PM -0700, Burnie West wrote: http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-dialogs-structure.html#gimp-layer-dialog Layer visibility In front of the thumbnail is an icon showing an eye. By clicking on the eye, you toggle whether the layer is visible or not. (Shift-clicking on the eye causes all other to be temporarily hidden.) The word temporarily is misleading. The other layers remain hidden until their eye icon is clicked. However, this is hardly worth a bug report. Right! Thanks for pointing this out... -- Marco Ciampa ++ | Linux User #78271 | | FSFE fellow #364 | ++ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
[Gimp-user] Using a filter from within script-fu
Hi list I'm learning how to write script-fu scripts. I've managed to resize an image, but I would like to use a filter from within the script-fu script, applying it to the image after it's been resized. More specifically, I'd like to run the Filters-Generic-Dilate filter on the image, before saving it. I've searched on Google for how to do this, but I can't find any references to using filters from within a script. Can anyone help me on this? Thanks! /Rune ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
