Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
On Sat, 2007-03-10 at 14:26 +0800, Ron Hawkins wrote: I'm talking companies that measure their profits in USD$ with 9 zeroes. I'm talking 100s of Terrabytes. I'm talking Disaster Recovery of 1000s of km. Phhht - you'd wonder why they'd bother. I'm surprised companies that small can afford your services fella :o) Shane ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
Mate, I'm anybody's for the right price. You can find me on a street cornet in Fortitude Valley... Ron -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shane Sent: Saturday, 10 March 2007 4:00 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA On Sat, 2007-03-10 at 14:26 +0800, Ron Hawkins wrote: I'm talking companies that measure their profits in USD$ with 9 zeroes. I'm talking 100s of Terrabytes. I'm talking Disaster Recovery of 1000s of km. Phhht - you'd wonder why they'd bother. I'm surprised companies that small can afford your services fella :o) Shane ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
In a message dated 3/10/2007 4:20:33 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm anybody's for the right price. You can find me on a street cornet in Fortitude Valley... Reminds me of a sign (bumper sticker? cartoon?) I saw at a computer conference in the early 1990s that said Will do SYSGENs for food. Bill Fairchild Plainfield, IL Criticism and dissent are the indispensable antidote to major delusions. [Alan Barth, 1951; The Loyalty of Free Men] BRBRBR**BR AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
On Mar 10, 2007, at 12:26 AM, Ron Hawkins wrote: Ed, I'm talking companies that measure their profits in USD$ with 9 zeroes. I'm talking 100s of Terrabytes. I'm talking Disaster Recovery of 1000s of km. There are some itsy bitsy accounts mixed in with the larger ones, but the shared resources, premises and infrastructure improves the costs of goods so that the outsourcer can take their margin and the customers are still better off. Bruce Hewson's example is an interesting one, where a number of company owned Data Centres around the world compete for each country's operations - perhaps it could be called near-sourcing. Ron --SNIP I will bow to your experience however I would wonder if the above examples you site are US or EUR . The politics in the US (or Canada) (in most cases) are nothing to sneeze at. I have zero knowledge of our european friends. I would guess possibly that Bruce's example might be Australian so if that is the case then its another mindset. When it comes down to it, it is probably a case of nationality issue(s) as well of internal politics. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
Ed, The companies I'm referring to are from USA, Europe and Australia, but my experience with them outsourcing is in Australia and Asia. Bruce Hewson's example is a very, very, very American company. I think it has very little to do with nationalities, and a lot to do with costs. Ron I will bow to your experience however I would wonder if the above examples you site are US or EUR . The politics in the US (or Canada) (in most cases) are nothing to sneeze at. I have zero knowledge of our european friends. I would guess possibly that Bruce's example might be Australian so if that is the case then its another mindset. When it comes down to it, it is probably a case of nationality issue(s) as well of internal politics. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
Howard, How about keeping our business inside our country - which also contains sizeable numbers of people who are a threat? Well, just to be fair, how about taking any other country's business out of your country. The model that I come across for many outsourcing companies is that having many customers sharing the same site and infrastructure leads to a lower cost that can be passed on to the customer. Ron -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
The model that I come across for many outsourcing companies is that having many customers sharing the same site and infrastructure leads to a lower cost that can be passed on to the customer. Until (when/if) the service providers start cutting costs by getting rid of the (expensive) SME's and putting in juniors, who don't know the environment. Then mistakes become costly, and the SP does everything that can be done to ensure they are not liable. I have been on both sides of the equation. And, I could show you the scars. Outsourcing, if it works, lasts for about 2 years. Then the roof falls in, or the company falls into the trap of what can we outsource, this year? - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
Ted, Canada, right? Must be something peculiar going on in your part of the Commonwealth. I have seen companies from outsourced in Australia and Asia that have been happily running that way for 10 years or more. This includes Banks, Finance companies, retail stores, Telcos and Manufacturers. I have never seen an insource after just 2 years. Outsourcers I have dealt with pay sever penalties for mistakes that lead to missed service levels. Dumbing down the staff to the point you describe is not financially viable. Ron Until (when/if) the service providers start cutting costs by getting rid of the (expensive) SME's and putting in juniors, who don't know the environment. Then mistakes become costly, and the SP does everything that can be done to ensure they are not liable. Outsourcing, if it works, lasts for about 2 years. Then the roof falls in, or the company falls into the trap of what can we outsource, this year? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
Canada, right? Must be something peculiar going on in your part of the Commonwealth. Actually, while I'm a Canadian, the company is head-officed in the States. I can't go into too much detail, but our service provider is in the southern states and they are dumbed-down. Plus, we outsourced our COBOLers, and we are having problems there as well. I was downsized due to 'high pay' and they are still recovering. I still get calls asking for help, and my response is: I forget! You should see the articles (non-airline) on this topic in CA US! - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
On Mar 9, 2007, at 5:23 PM, Ron Hawkins wrote: Ted, Canada, right? Must be something peculiar going on in your part of the Commonwealth. I have seen companies from outsourced in Australia and Asia that have been happily running that way for 10 years or more. This includes Banks, Finance companies, retail stores, Telcos and Manufacturers. I have never seen an insource after just 2 years. Outsourcers I have dealt with pay sever penalties for mistakes that lead to missed service levels. Dumbing down the staff to the point you describe is not financially viable. Ron Ron, I will have to semi agree with Ted on this one. I have seen success's and failures. Usually the success's (IMO) are small potatoes type companies. I don't think I can remember any large companies that outsourcing really worked for any length of time. If I had to guess why, I would say internal politics but it would be strictly a guess. The political pressure is really intense at a few places I have seen. I personally know a Senior VP type of an outsourcing firm and the stories I hear would turn anyone's stomach. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
Ed, I'm talking companies that measure their profits in USD$ with 9 zeroes. I'm talking 100s of Terrabytes. I'm talking Disaster Recovery of 1000s of km. There are some itsy bitsy accounts mixed in with the larger ones, but the shared resources, premises and infrastructure improves the costs of goods so that the outsourcer can take their margin and the customers are still better off. Bruce Hewson's example is an interesting one, where a number of company owned Data Centres around the world compete for each country's operations - perhaps it could be called near-sourcing. Ron I will have to semi agree with Ted on this one. I have seen success's and failures. Usually the success's (IMO) are small potatoes type companies. I don't think I can remember any large companies that outsourcing really worked for any length of time. If I had to guess why, I would say internal politics but it would be strictly a guess. The political pressure is really intense at a few places I have seen. I personally know a Senior VP type of an outsourcing firm and the stories I hear would turn anyone's stomach. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
Steve_Thompson @ ibm-main.lst wrote: I'm baffled at outsourcing to countries that are a security risk to the USofA. Countries that have a sizeable number of Islamic radicals should not be targets of outsourcing. How about keeping our business inside our country - which also contains sizeable numbers of people who are a threat? USA corporate law requires that the top managers of publicly owned corporations (i.e., CEOs, Boards of Directors, various officers with fiduciary responsibility, etc.) be concerned primarily with shareholder equity, and last and least with other concepts like national security, local unemployment, social contract, pollution, etc. It is what it is. And it is not very pretty. Bill Fairchild Plainfield, IL Criticism and dissent are the indispensable antidote to major delusions. [Alan Barth, 1951; The Loyalty of Free Men] BRBRBR**BR AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of David Day The thing that has baffled me about outsourcing is how do companies actually save money since now the outsourcer includes in its costs marketing expenses and profits. Salary for a programmer in India is about 10k per annum. ... Which some claim is equivalent to a king's ransom there -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Hewson Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:54 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA Hello Howard, what our and we ?!?! I work outside my country of citizenship, in an Asian country, for a global multi-national company, which happens to be headquartered in USA. We run applications for my host country and also other countries around the world. So I am an ex-pat working at an in-sourcer/outsourcer. but I am not a citizen of USA. so what we and our do you mean in your public to the world post. On Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:15:28 -0700, Howard Brazee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1 Mar 2007 12:59:52 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thompson, Steve) wrote: I'm baffled at outsourcing to countries that are a security risk to the USofA. Countries that have a sizeable number of Islamic radicals should not be targets of outsourcing. How about keeping our business inside our country - which also contains sizeable numbers of people who are a threat? We defeated the USSR by showing them that our way worked better than their way.When our enemies become middle class with career paths that work - they will be more hesitant about risking those values. SNIP Forgive us citizens of the USofA. Sometimes we think a little too nationalistically. Regards, Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
On 1 Mar 2007 21:57:44 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: Hello Howard, what our and we ?!?! I work outside my country of citizenship, in an Asian country, for a global multi-national company, which happens to be headquartered in USA. We run applications for my host country and also other countries around the world. So I am an ex-pat working at an in-sourcer/outsourcer. As a landed immigrant in Canada, I am an ex-pat working as a contractor when I get a gig so I am not totally opposed to contracting/outsourcing although I still wonder at the economics of it. If I understand the type of company you work for, the legal issues would a known and manageable problem since the company has considerable presence in the various countries and needs to maintain the legal expertise for each of them. Thus moving applications among or between countries is far less risky for it than it would be for many others. but I am not a citizen of USA. so what we and our do you mean in your public to the world post. On Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:15:28 -0700, Howard Brazee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1 Mar 2007 12:59:52 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thompson, Steve) wrote: I'm baffled at outsourcing to countries that are a security risk to the USofA. Countries that have a sizeable number of Islamic radicals should not be targets of outsourcing. How about keeping our business inside our country - which also contains sizeable numbers of people who are a threat? We defeated the USSR by showing them that our way worked better than their way.When our enemies become middle class with career paths that work - they will be more hesitant about risking those values. Regards Bruce Hewson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
On 1 Mar 2007 21:57:44 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bruce Hewson) wrote: what our and we ?!?! I was responding to someone objecting to outsourcing for security reasons - I hope that my answer applies to a variable we. In the example of defeating the USSR, it was the wealth of the West that won - not the cold war.In today's world, I believe our security is best served by remembering this and using a similar strategy. In this smaller world, a lot of our wealth is quite fungible. If one country sells oil to X instead of Y - Y doesn't suffer, it just buys oil from Z instead. Software doesn't care where it was created. If we buy our ERP from Germany and run it on computers made in the US - is it any better or worse than if our ERP was created in the US and our computers made in Taiwan? Some countries won't let us sell our product unless we buy from them as well. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
---snip- A friend made a very good point that many sysprogs lost their jobs in OZ due to outsourcing; like one company had 8 SP, then outsourced, eventually ended up with 2 SP supporting a few sites. Has this also been a factor in US? ---unsnip--- It's a factor, but I'm not sure how great a factor. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
On Mar 1, 2007, at 11:08 AM, Rick Fochtman wrote: ---snip- A friend made a very good point that many sysprogs lost their jobs in OZ due to outsourcing; like one company had 8 SP, then outsourced, eventually ended up with 2 SP supporting a few sites. Has this also been a factor in US? ---unsnip--- It's a factor, but I'm not sure how great a factor. SNIP The one place I was familiar with(7+ years ago). I heard they have outsourced to India. Supposedly all their systems staff is being let go and will be supported out of India. It is too early in the process to know if it will work or not, IMO. My gut instinct is that it will not work but I am not in any real position to know. I suspect that the positions here will be around (although numbers will be smaller) for some time. What I am really curious about when it falls flat on its face. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
On 1 Mar 2007 11:31:12 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: On Mar 1, 2007, at 11:08 AM, Rick Fochtman wrote: ---snip- A friend made a very good point that many sysprogs lost their jobs in OZ due to outsourcing; like one company had 8 SP, then outsourced, eventually ended up with 2 SP supporting a few sites. Has this also been a factor in US? ---unsnip--- It's a factor, but I'm not sure how great a factor. SNIP The one place I was familiar with(7+ years ago). I heard they have outsourced to India. Supposedly all their systems staff is being let go and will be supported out of India. It is too early in the process to know if it will work or not, IMO. My gut instinct is that it will not work but I am not in any real position to know. I suspect that the positions here will be around (although numbers will be smaller) for some time. What I am really curious about when it falls flat on its face. Ed Outsourcing means giving up some control. The legal implications and responsibilities when something goes wrong should be the subject of careful negotiation. When the entities are in two different states (United State of America, India or Germany for example) or provinces (Canada for example), the legal issues become somewhat more complex. When the entities are in two different countries, the complications escalate. The Patriot Act in the United States has some Canadians worried about privacy violations (probably correctly) and this concern led to people opposing the outsourcing of some government processing (health care) in British Columbia to a US based company. Outsourcing within the North American Free Trade Act area or within the European Union is probably less risky than between the two entities. My rule of thumb would be don't outsource to a jurisdiction where the company doing the outsourcing doesn't have a strong physical presence. The strong physical presence gives greater assurance that the company knows local laws and customs (greater, not absolute). The thing that has baffled me about outsourcing is how do companies actually save money since now the outsourcer includes in its costs marketing expenses and profits. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
The thing that has baffled me about outsourcing is how do companies actually save money since now the outsourcer includes in its costs marketing expenses and profits. Salary for a programmer in India is about 10k per annum. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Clark Morris Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 1:47 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA snip The thing that has baffled me about outsourcing is how do companies actually save money since now the outsourcer includes in its costs marketing expenses and profits. snip I'm baffled at outsourcing to countries that are a security risk to the USofA. Countries that have a sizeable number of Islamic radicals should not be targets of outsourcing. But then, when this started I was asked, Where you when manufacturing went out of the country? My response then and still is, IT is the intelligence of a company. Would you outsource your brain if it were possible? Yet this is what companies are doing. Think about the intelligence possibly given to people we really don't want having it (who works for the water department in -- isn't that in banking, credit card, payroll, etc. data that is offshored?). How much does the USGov't spend to get that kind of intelligence? But back to the legal issues. IP law is different and the courts that handle it are not uniform between jurisdictions (look at the US and how it must be forced to the FED courts, which aren't uniform). How many Trade Secrets have been lost (or would be if the arguments were made) because India, Malaysia, China, etc. do not have the same rules? What about patents and copyrights? Certain countries only enforce copyright for 10 years, period (they don't recognize the Mickey Mouse Copyright extensions [Actually done to protect the Disney copyrights to Mickey Mouse cartoons and the like.]). But, if you have access to all my business rules, customers, contacts, etc., why can't you start going after my customers? But, I'm just a lowly code slinger. What could I possibly know compared to someone making 10x or more than I do who dresses better and waves his/her hands in the right direction when suggesting the use of FedEx over the USPS (any body catch that little slap in the commercial referred to?)? Regards, Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Clark Morris Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 1:47 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA snip The thing that has baffled me about outsourcing is how do companies actually save money since now the outsourcer includes in its costs marketing expenses and profits. Either go where the cost of living is significantly less that the US (as India was and China still is), or use salaried employees and demand a 168 hour work week. Or maybe do lawyer billing. Eg. lawyer in route from client A to client B works on a brief for client C. All three clients are billed for that time. This may even be possible in a sense to bill all your z/OS clients for maintenance time when the sysprog is in a maintenance cycle. I.e. they all pay, full cost, for the research time in addition to the individual bill for installation time. Note that I don't know if they do this, I've never worked for an outsourcer. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
On 1 Mar 2007 12:59:52 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thompson, Steve) wrote: I'm baffled at outsourcing to countries that are a security risk to the USofA. Countries that have a sizeable number of Islamic radicals should not be targets of outsourcing. How about keeping our business inside our country - which also contains sizeable numbers of people who are a threat? We defeated the USSR by showing them that our way worked better than their way.When our enemies become middle class with career paths that work - they will be more hesitant about risking those values. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:16:25 +1000, FRASER, Brian wrote: John Deere Technology Center Cyber City, Magarpatta City, Hadapsar I read a story this morning on IGNITES about Franklin Templeton Investments launching a new mega-campus in Hyderabad, India. According to the article, It's the firm’s largest single-location campus anywhere in the world. They don't say if there's any hardware at the site, but they do say it's primary purpose is to serve as a support center to the operations and technology groups and employ about 1800. And this isn't out-sourcing. And they don't like the term off-shoring. It's called “captive” operations. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
On Mar 1, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Clark Morris wrote: On 1 Mar 2007 11:31:12 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: On Mar 1, 2007, at 11:08 AM, Rick Fochtman wrote: ---snip- A friend made a very good point that many sysprogs lost their jobs in OZ due to outsourcing; like one company had 8 SP, then outsourced, eventually ended up with 2 SP supporting a few sites. Has this also been a factor in US? ---unsnip--- It's a factor, but I'm not sure how great a factor. SNIP The one place I was familiar with(7+ years ago). I heard they have outsourced to India. Supposedly all their systems staff is being let go and will be supported out of India. It is too early in the process to know if it will work or not, IMO. My gut instinct is that it will not work but I am not in any real position to know. I suspect that the positions here will be around (although numbers will be smaller) for some time. What I am really curious about when it falls flat on its face. Ed Outsourcing means giving up some control. The legal implications and responsibilities when something goes wrong should be the subject of careful negotiation. When the entities are in two different states (United State of America, India or Germany for example) or provinces (Canada for example), the legal issues become somewhat more complex. When the entities are in two different countries, the complications escalate. The Patriot Act in the United States has some Canadians worried about privacy violations (probably correctly) and this concern led to people opposing the outsourcing of some government processing (health care) in British Columbia to a US based company. Outsourcing within the North American Free Trade Act area or within the European Union is probably less risky than between the two entities. My rule of thumb would be don't outsource to a jurisdiction where the company doing the outsourcing doesn't have a strong physical presence. The strong physical presence gives greater assurance that the company knows local laws and customs (greater, not absolute). The thing that has baffled me about outsourcing is how do companies actually save money since now the outsourcer includes in its costs marketing expenses and profits. SNIP--- This as a multinational company HQ in Europe. From a second hand source (pretty reliable) The HQ wanted to cut costs so the Chicago division was selected to get outsourced. From what little I heard HQ is still spending $'s like a drunken sailor. In plain simple english the US was the division that got screwed . There was some internal politics (of course) and the Chicago division got the axe. I did hear that the option was there to be outsourced to a consulting company (name withheld) and also IBM had their hand in the pot. India got it . I doubt if anyone will be able to come forth and give the full story without some fear of retribution. If it will save $$ only the company will be able to answer that. With the amount of fiber (electronic communications) that are(is?) needed I am surprised that they will not need a whole bunch of fiber to be created. Last I heard there was some legal requirement to mirror one application that amounted to 100+ volumes. I don't know if there was also some kind of requirement for this to be in the US or not. In fact the whole issue of DR will be interesting, IMO now that they are being relocated to INDIA. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing perils was Re: sysprog demand in USA
Hello Howard, what our and we ?!?! I work outside my country of citizenship, in an Asian country, for a global multi-national company, which happens to be headquartered in USA. We run applications for my host country and also other countries around the world. So I am an ex-pat working at an in-sourcer/outsourcer. but I am not a citizen of USA. so what we and our do you mean in your public to the world post. On Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:15:28 -0700, Howard Brazee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1 Mar 2007 12:59:52 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thompson, Steve) wrote: I'm baffled at outsourcing to countries that are a security risk to the USofA. Countries that have a sizeable number of Islamic radicals should not be targets of outsourcing. How about keeping our business inside our country - which also contains sizeable numbers of people who are a threat? We defeated the USSR by showing them that our way worked better than their way.When our enemies become middle class with career paths that work - they will be more hesitant about risking those values. Regards Bruce Hewson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
Yes, I would have to agree with John. While IBM z/OS Mainframes are certainly my favorite piece of the technology (I go back to 1975, DOS/VS), I have had to learn Linux and solaris 'well' and Microsoft moderately well, in order to stay in demand. Education in Networking and SAN's do not hurt any at all, either. And, unfortunately, Certifications count. Good Luck. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
R.S. wrote: 2. JES2. IBM moved JES2 development to India. I don't know when, but I haven't noticed any problem with JES2. I also don't know location of machine the JES2 developers work on. This was a disaster! JES3 was able to retain one -- maybe two -- fairly decent Indian developers for a while. Those working on JES2 quit very early on. Not sure what the status of the Indian JES workforce is at the moment. But, to make your point, the computers they use are in Poughkeepsie, NY. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
A friend made a very good point that many sysprogs lost their jobs in OZ due to outsourcing; like one company had 8 SP, then outsourced, eventually ended up with 2 SP supporting a few sites. Has this also been a factor in US? Regards, Rez Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
Well, IMHO, there are a lot of pressure on companies worldwide to keep costs low, the result is more and more sysprogs are pushed upward towards management so cheaper sysprogs can come from the OPS ranks. Especially banks and telecoms companies use this strategy. Herbie -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of r hey Sent: 26 Februarie 2007 11:42 nm To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: sysprog demand in USA There hasn't been much demand for sysprogs in Australia in the last 2 years. How is it in USA? Is there enough demand for companies to sponsor H1B visa for sysprogs? To my knowledge there isn't enough demand in Europe for them to sponsor sysprogs who don't have work visa. TIA, Rez Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html * This email and any attachments are confidential and intended for the sole use of the intended recipient(s).If you receive this email in error please notify [EMAIL PROTECTED] and delete it from your system. Any unauthorized dissemination, retransmission, or copying of this email and any attachments is prohibited. Euroconex does not accept any responsibility for any breach of confidence, which may arise from the use of email. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. This message has been scanned for known computer viruses. * -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote: Well, IMHO, there are a lot of pressure on companies worldwide to keep costs low, the result is more and more sysprogs are pushed upward towards management so cheaper sysprogs can come from the OPS ranks. Especially banks and telecoms companies use this strategy. That's why sysprogs are still wanted. However in India, Pakistan, Poland, Ukraine. That's result of telecommunication possibilities today. American managers decide to move American computers to cheaper countries, just to lower the costs and provide greater profits to American shareholders. I prefer polish goods, but when polish are significantly more expensive, I choose imported ones. BTW: It's matter of economy, not mainframes. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of r hey Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 5:42 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: sysprog demand in USA There hasn't been much demand for sysprogs in Australia in the last 2 years. How is it in USA? Is there enough demand for companies to sponsor H1B visa for sysprogs? To my knowledge there isn't enough demand in Europe for them to sponsor sysprogs who don't have work visa. TIA, Rez Not really, no. Regardless of what anybody says, the age of the zSeries is over. It is now, at best, a niche player in overall IT. Oh, granted many will point to the growth in MIPS being used. But that does not translate into jobs for people. That's what I mean by niche. My suggestion, and what I'm trying to do, is learn Linux on various platforms, especially Intel/AMD. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
I really don't think too many American companies are moving mainframe computers to foreign countries, unless the business presence in the foreign country demands a mainframe. I have to believe that most companies want their mainframe at home on American soil where it is safe, and easy to communicate with. Does anyone know of any American businesses who have outsourced their mainframe to a foreign country to cut costs when they have little business presence in that country? Eric Bielefeld Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer Lands End Dodgeville, Wisconsin 414-475-7434 - Original Message - From: R.S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's why sysprogs are still wanted. However in India, Pakistan, Poland, Ukraine. That's result of telecommunication possibilities today. American managers decide to move American computers to cheaper countries, just to lower the costs and provide greater profits to American shareholders. I prefer polish goods, but when polish are significantly more expensive, I choose imported ones. BTW: It's matter of economy, not mainframes. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
John Deere Technology Center Cyber City, Magarpatta City, Hadapsar -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric N. Bielefeld Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2007 10:57 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: sysprog demand in USA I really don't think too many American companies are moving mainframe computers to foreign countries, unless the business presence in the foreign country demands a mainframe. I have to believe that most companies want their mainframe at home on American soil where it is safe, and easy to communicate with. Does anyone know of any American businesses who have outsourced their mainframe to a foreign country to cut costs when they have little business presence in that country? Eric Bielefeld Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer Lands End Dodgeville, Wisconsin 414-475-7434 - Original Message - From: R.S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's why sysprogs are still wanted. However in India, Pakistan, Poland, Ukraine. That's result of telecommunication possibilities today. American managers decide to move American computers to cheaper countries, just to lower the costs and provide greater profits to American shareholders. I prefer polish goods, but when polish are significantly more expensive, I choose imported ones. BTW: It's matter of economy, not mainframes. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html --- This e-mail is sent by Suncorp-Metway Limited ABN 66 010 831 722 or one of its related entities Suncorp. Suncorp may be contacted at Level 18, 36 Wickham Terrace, Brisbane or on 13 11 55 or at suncorp.com.au. The content of this e-mail is the view of the sender or stated author and does not necessarily reflect the view of Suncorp. The content, including attachments, is a confidential communication between Suncorp and the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, interference with, disclosure or copying of this e-mail, including attachments, is unauthorised and expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please contact the sender immediately and delete the e-mail and any attachments from your system. If this e-mail constitutes a commercial message of a type that you no longer wish to receive please reply to this e-mail by typing Unsubscribe in the subject line. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:57 PM, Eric N. Bielefeld wrote: I really don't think too many American companies are moving mainframe computers to foreign countries, unless the business presence in the foreign country demands a mainframe. I have to believe that most companies want their mainframe at home on American soil where it is safe, and easy to communicate with. Does anyone know of any American businesses who have outsourced their mainframe to a foreign country to cut costs when they have little business presence in that country? Eric Bielefeld Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer Lands End Dodgeville, Wisconsin 414-475-7434 Eric, I know of at least one. But the question is (a side issue to me) as to how much involvement the company has in INDIA. In a multinational corporation one could consider a branch office with 1 person in an involvement. I think you probably should say substantial. I know of another one that has moved their DC to ISREAL. They were (are?) a catalog company. On the other extreme I know at least one company that is staying in the US but only hiring foreign nationals here in Chicago as H1B's seem to be plentiful. Is this outsourcing ? Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
Eric N. Bielefeld wrote: I really don't think too many American companies are moving mainframe computers to foreign countries, unless the business presence in the foreign country demands a mainframe. I have to believe that most companies want their mainframe at home on American soil where it is safe, and easy to communicate with. Does anyone know of any American businesses who have outsourced their mainframe to a foreign country to cut costs when they have little business presence in that country? 1. Gilette. SAP mainframe moved from Germany to India. Seamless from user point of view. 2. JES2. IBM moved JES2 development to India. I don't know when, but I haven't noticed any problem with JES2. I also don't know location of machine the JES2 developers work on. 3. Impaq. AFAIK Swiss company. AFAIK datacenter in Belgium is operated from Warsaw, Poland. 4. General Electric. Some mainframe activity is located in Gdansk, Poland. The machine is in another country. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
sysprog demand in USA
There hasn't been much demand for sysprogs in Australia in the last 2 years. How is it in USA? Is there enough demand for companies to sponsor H1B visa for sysprogs? To my knowledge there isn't enough demand in Europe for them to sponsor sysprogs who don't have work visa. TIA, Rez Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
Check the archives for the moaning and groaning about layoffs, mainframe power-downs, and the lack of openings/opportunities. I don't believe it's all doom and gloom but any US company that can't find domestic sysprogs is either not looking very hard or is offering $36,000/year. Unless you have contacts and very specific skills that you know are in demand (more specific than general MVS sysprog) I would look elsewhere. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of r hey Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 3:42 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: sysprog demand in USA There hasn't been much demand for sysprogs in Australia in the last 2 years. How is it in USA? Is there enough demand for companies to sponsor H1B visa for sysprogs? To my knowledge there isn't enough demand in Europe for them to sponsor sysprogs who don't have work visa. TIA, Rez Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: sysprog demand in USA
-snip--- There hasn't been much demand for sysprogs in Australia in the last 2 years. How is it in USA? Is there enough demand for companies to sponsor H1B visa for sysprogs? To my knowledge there isn't enough demand in Europe for them to sponsor sysprogs who don't have work visa. unsnip- Reza, I hunted for a year before I decided to take my retirement and run with it. Does that tell you something? Market here is very poor and most folks that have jobs in this field are holding on for dear life. If you've got something that's providing a regular paycheck, I recommend that you hold onto it as well. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
