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-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of
billogden
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on
etup on
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-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of
billogden
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>I m
>I myself dislike COBOL for the very simple and personal reason that it's so
>WORDY.
***
I am not a COBOL programmer, except for some very minor attempts a long time
ago. However, I very much respect the proper use of the WORDY aspect. It
seems to help with maintenance and updating of large,
Dr Alan Kay said "...arrogance is measured in nano-Dijkstras", but to my
mind had a dry sense of humour :-)
Roops
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, 04:22 David Crayford, wrote:
> I think it was flippant Edsger W. Dijkstra quote:
>
> “The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should,
>
Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Andrew Rowley [and...@blackhillsoftware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 7:02 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
On 28/03/2023 9:34 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> I once fo
On 28/03/2023 9:34 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:
I once found myself defending the common idiom
for (;;) {
foo;
}
as a perfectly clear DO FOREVER.
I'm not sure that it is completely clear, it depends on knowledge if
whether the empty statement evaluates as true or false - or just
@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
yes, I agree with you. It probably needed one informal text where it explained
how to program in it. There is an open source implementation which does a good
job at
https://nam11
ist [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Mike Schwab [mike.a.sch...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 4:13 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjol.oscar-jol.co
<mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>] on behalf of René Jansen
> [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com <mailto:rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com>]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 4:01 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU <mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Stop the raggin
Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Wayne Bickerdike [wayn...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 1:56 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
During my early training we were sent to learn Michael Jackson
://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 4:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
It is very probable that he only liked ALGOL 58 and ALGOL 60, for which he (and
Jaap Zonneveld) made the first compiler (for the Electrologica X1), in an old
school building in a small street, the Boerhaavestraat in Amsterdam, which I
can see from my window across the river right now. The
During my early training we were sent to learn Michael Jackson structured
programming. MJ quotes Dijkstra a lot, however, I didn't realise that he
was a PL/I hater. That was the first language I learned and still think it
was a masterpiece. I encountered COBOL after I left IBM and it happened to
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 at 23:22, David Crayford wrote:
>
> I think it was flippant Edsger W. Dijkstra quote:
>
> “The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should,
> therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense.”
Dijkstra wasn't hot on a lot of languages:
"If Fortran has been called
You said internet banking was going to destroy large banks. How’s that working
out?
Microfocus COBOL isn’t regular COBOL. And is a tiny fraction of the COBOL
market.
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:26 PM, David Crayford wrote:
On 27/3/23 22:07, Bill Johnson
On 27/3/23 22:07, Bill Johnson wrote:
+1
About a year or so ago I posted about the number of lines of COBOL code in use
worldwide and stated COBOL was going to be the language of choice for many
decades to come. Estimates say 800 billion lines (and growing) in use today. As
usual, I was
I think it was flippant Edsger W. Dijkstra quote:
“The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should,
therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense.”
I use programming languages that I don't like all the time. C, in
particular, I dislike a lot. That doesn't mean they're not useful.
List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Pommier, Rex [rpomm...@sfgmembers.com]
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 4:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
Sorry, I'm going to "rag" on a language... :-) Admittedly I know ne
]
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 5:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
Steve, no, no, no, no. I'm not bashing Rexx or CLISTS or JCL. I'm trying to
do just the opposite. Another poster (read:Michael) was (I'm presuming
tongue-in-cheek
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
CLIST has nested variables, REXX doesn't. And CLIST has keyword style parms,
while REXX arguments are strictly positional. And, in REXX you can't turn off
first level substitution of when sending commands to ISREDIT, which
makes it tricky to do Edit
Right, I forgot about that. Gotta give you that one.
---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
/* I think what happens to toddlers is that they suddenly realize their parents
have essentially been lying to them their whole lives. We represent the world
as this wonderful place
List On Behalf Of
Mike Schwab
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 5:05 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
JCL COND is similar to an assembler branch, skip if true.
On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 5:01 PM Pommier, Rex wrote:
>
> That's why I said
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 6:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
Michael Schmitt wrote, in part:
>R
s true
> you're through"?) was a REALLY primitive if/then construct.
>
> Rex
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of
> Bob Bridges
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 4:41 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: S
Michael Schmitt wrote, in part:
>REXX is so much better but I want to ask Mike Cowlishaw
>what he was thinking in making uninitialized variables
>default to their own name.
While as a programmer I agree with you, I'm pretty sure I know the answer:
Rexx was designed to be usable by
sion List On Behalf Of Bob
Bridges
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 4:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
Chiming in here because of the overwhelming popular demand for my unsolicited
opinions: I ~mostly~ agree with your definition of "prog
Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob
Bridges
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 4:44 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
Ok, I'll ask: What ~is~ JOL? Never heard of it.
I'm repeatedly surprised at the number of mainframers who never l
Ok, I'll ask: What ~is~ JOL? Never heard of it.
I'm repeatedly surprised at the number of mainframers who never learned JCL
past the ability to modify a job by replacing a DSN or two. Yet somehow they
manage to function, sometimes by asking someone else to help fix their JCL. A
new
On Behalf Of
Phil Smith III
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 4:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
Steve Thompson wrote, in part:
>Oh, I haven't had to deal with it for a while, but as I recall
>there is a function that CLIST can do that REXX coul
Chiming in here because of the overwhelming popular demand for my unsolicited
opinions: I ~mostly~ agree with your definition of "programming language", but
I usually add that it has to have at least some primitive sort of if-then
construction. JCL didn't use to make the grade, but it does
Steve Thompson wrote, in part:
>Oh, I haven't had to deal with it for a while, but as I recall
>there is a function that CLIST can do that REXX couldn't (well
>back in the 1990s). I wonder if that is still true.
Perhaps easily parsing a typical TSO command:
verb arg1(value1) arg2(value2a,value2b)
: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
I fine it interesting that a person by the name of Rex is bashing CLIST. Yep
And yes, I do write JCL from scratch (answer the next post) because I right
now, I'm working on migration code and need examples of certain constructs so I
can make
Oh, calling it out is fine. I was talking only about resenting it, which harms
you and does no balancing benefit. You can do the one without the other. Me,
I'm more likely to ignore it, or at least to ignore it longer, but that's a
personal choice.
---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com,
Of
Farley, Peter
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 2:44 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
Maybe . . .
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 3:36 PM
To
ssion List On Behalf Of
Mike Schwab
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 3:13 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jol.oscar-jol.com/about-jol__;!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!vGAo09RS
: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
Maybe . . .
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 3:36 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
https://jol.oscar-jol.com/about-jol JCL On Line
On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 2:43 PM Farley, Peter
<031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Maybe . . .
>
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access
Now we get to argue over whether JCL is a language! (Despite the "L" in the
name, I'm 100% sure there are folks who will argue that it is not, just as
there are folks who argue that HTML isn't a language. I'm not one of them,
don't throw things at me!)
On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 3:43 PM Farley,
Maybe . . .
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 3:36 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please
Is it OK to rag on languages with no redeeming qualities
Is it OK to rag on languages with no redeeming qualities?
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
done, and won't harp on it again.
Peter
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob
Bridges
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 3:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
What I'm really thinking
I definitely get having enough of it, old/cranky/ornery or not. And you'll
notice (or maybe you didn't) that I said nothing about ragging on COBOL
programmers. There I'm much more inclined to agree with you.
While I'm making disclaimers, I don't need much in the way of respect when
you're
11:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references to
COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
Programmers like me.
Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Re
y.
Peter
P.S. -- I love your Erasmus tagline and agree wholeheartedly.
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob
Bridges
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 9:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by va
I've been resisting the temptation, because it's a repeat, but it's still a
good one:
/* Joke begins */
Jack was a COBOL programmer in the late 1990s who (after years of being treated
as a technological dinosaur by all the UNIX programmers, Client/Server
programmers, website developers etc)
Yeah, #3 is the one I keep coming back to. "COBOL? I took a COBOL class in
1975; how can it compete with a modern language like ?"
The same thing with mainframes; they're from the 1950s, and should long
since have gone to a well-deserved grave. They were great in their day,
but... We had this
:05 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
Good morning Peter,
SNOBOL??
Geeze that takes me way back.
I had a smile and had to call some old colleagues.
Thank you!
...Cameron
OOO - March 28, 29, 30 and 31.
-Original M
+1
About a year or so ago I posted about the number of lines of COBOL code in use
worldwide and stated COBOL was going to be the language of choice for many
decades to come. Estimates say 800 billion lines (and growing) in use today. As
usual, I was attacked for my fact based opinion.
.
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bob
Bridges
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 9:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
Peter! I don't think I've heard from you recently; maybe I just wasn't paying
attention until I
Peter! I don't think I've heard from you recently; maybe I just wasn't paying
attention until I read this one.
I myself dislike COBOL for the very simple and personal reason that it's so
WORDY. But even when I had to use it a lot (I was a COBOL developer for about
15 years), I was aware that
+1 for me as well
In fact, I have written code to read catalog records, in COBOL,
because I needed to solve a problem back in z/OS 1.4 days and I
didn't have time to write the code in ALC/HLASM, and management
would not purchase tools since they were migrating off mainframes
Steve
+2
-- Original Message --
From: Tom Brennan
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:22:03 -0700
+1
On 3/26/2023 10:55 PM, Farley, Peter wrote:
> I am getting increasingly tired of sn
Behalf Of
Farley, Peter
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 1:56 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]
I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references to
COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
Progr
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]
I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references to
COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
Programmers like me.
Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx
+1
On 3/26/2023 10:55 PM, Farley, Peter wrote:
I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references to
COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
Programmers like me.
Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx, awk and gawk, somewhat facile in
SORT (at least as far as
I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references to
COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
Programmers like me.
Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx, awk and gawk, somewhat facile in
SORT (at least as far as knowing and using JOIN's), SQL, JCL and various
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