Auto: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Je suis absent le 17 avril 2023. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 1/03/2023 9:01 am, Andrew Rowley wrote: The Achilles heel for Java on z/OS seems to be dataset I/O. It's adequate, but feels like it should be faster. (I haven't actually done direct comparisons with other languages.) Following up an old post of my own here, because I did actually compare

Re: REXX, ooRexx, BSF4ooRExx (Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 08.03.2023 02:30, David Crayford wrote: On 8/3/23 02:26, Rony G. Flatscher wrote: There also appears to be bugs in SysThread where the "attached" member variable is not initialized in the constructor that takes a pthread_t argument. Ah, interesting that this is regarded a stumbling block,

Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 10:39 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers On 7/3/23 16:59, René Jansen

Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers > On 8 Mar 2023, at 04:39, David Crayford wrote: > > On 7/3/23 16:59, René Jansen wrote: >> On 7 Mar 2023, at 08:45, David Crayford > &l

Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

> On 8 Mar 2023, at 04:39, David Crayford wrote: > > On 7/3/23 16:59, René Jansen wrote: >> On 7 Mar 2023, at 08:45, David Crayford > > wrote: >>> The industry has spoken! Python is the most popular programming language in >>> the world so haters will have to just

Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 7/3/23 16:59, René Jansen wrote: On 7 Mar 2023, at 08:45, David Crayford wrote: The industry has spoken! Python is the most popular programming language in the world so haters will have to just suck that up. That is a very funny statement. Nobody hates Python - the hype will blow over

Re: REXX, ooRexx, BSF4ooRExx (Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 8/3/23 02:26, Rony G. Flatscher wrote: There also appears to be bugs in SysThread where the "attached" member variable is not initialized in the constructor that takes a pthread_t argument. Ah, interesting that this is regarded a stumbling block, how about pthread_getunique_np() or such

REXX, ooRexx, BSF4ooRExx (Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 07.03.2023 08:45, David Crayford wrote: On 7/3/23 02:39, Rony G. Flatscher wrote: On 06.03.2023 02:43, David Crayford wrote: ... cut ... I did notice that CMake is being used for the build. That's good as IBM have ported CMake to z/OS. It's hidden away on a personal Github repo by an

Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 7 Mar 2023, at 08:45, David Crayford wrote: > > The industry has spoken! Python is the most popular programming language in > the world so haters will have to just suck that up. That is a very funny statement. Nobody hates Python - the hype will blow over like Perl, Visual Basic, Ruby,

Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 7/3/23 02:39, Rony G. Flatscher wrote: On 06.03.2023 02:43, David Crayford wrote: I'm sure your BSF4ooRexx is a really nice library. But it's moot point talking about it on this forum because ooRexx has not been ported to z/OS, I'm sorry to say that I think it probably never will be.

Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 06.03.2023 02:43, David Crayford wrote: I'm sure your BSF4ooRexx is a really nice library. But it's moot point talking about it on this forum because ooRexx has not been ported to z/OS, I'm sorry to say that I think it probably never will be. That would be unfortunate and actually a

Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

I'm sure your BSF4ooRexx is a really nice library. But it's moot point talking about it on this forum because ooRexx has not been ported to z/OS, I'm sorry to say that I think it probably never will be. Unless, of course, there is a REXX enthusiast who has the time and skills to do the port. I

Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Comment, asking: > Like what? Have you ever tried to write a TCP server in REXX? Comment, receiving: > Start here and it is reasonably simple: - TCPIP.SEZAINST(RSSERVER) - TCPIP.SEZAINST(R6SERVER) Comment: so writing a TCP server in REXX is not only theoretically possible,

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 3/3/23 22:33, Sebastian Welton wrote: On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 06:57:01 -0600, Jay Maynard wrote: I haven't tried to write anything in Rexx, let alone a TCP server. I'd probably be inclined to use Go for that, though. Start here and it is reasonably simple: - TCPIP.SEZAINST(RSSERVER) -

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Oh, you can bet I'll tell the world what I think...not like I'm exactly shy, now am i? :-) On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 10:14 AM Ed Jaffe wrote: > On 3/3/2023 3:53 AM, Jay Maynard wrote: > > I am assured they are working on a replacement, but I have no details. > > When you do get the details, please

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 3/3/2023 3:53 AM, Jay Maynard wrote: I am assured they are working on a replacement, but I have no details. When you do get the details, please post your reactions here on IBM-MAIN. For the record, I predict you won't like it... but one never knows... -- Phoenix Software International

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 06:57:01 -0600, Jay Maynard wrote: >I haven't tried to write anything in Rexx, let alone a TCP server. I'd >probably be inclined to use Go for that, though. > Start here and it is reasonably simple: - TCPIP.SEZAINST(RSSERVER) - TCPIP.SEZAINST(R6SERVER) Sebastian

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

I have a zD (as it got called). IBM wasn't prepared to deal with the response they got, and they also are simply not set up to deal with selling to individuals. On top of that, the technology they're using for licensing is getting long in the tooth, and they are not going to be able to use it

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

It's been a while since I mentioned this, but some years ago my oldest son got his fill of hearing me talk about the vanishing mainframers and wondered whether he should get me to teach him some of the basics. I started asking around, wanting to know how much it would cost me to rent a little

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 3/3/23 12:51, Mike Schwab wrote: They only got a few dongles out before they shut the program down. That's disappointing. IIRC, IBM allow access to containerized z/OS images. I don't know anything about how one would procure access but I believe Peter Farley has experience in that space.

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

They only got a few dongles out before they shut the program down. On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 10:22 PM David Crayford wrote: > > It's my understanding that IBM made the zPDT available at a much more > affordable price with quite restrictive T's. I do agree with your > sentiments. I work with young

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

It's my understanding that IBM made the zPDT available at a much more affordable price with quite restrictive T's. I do agree with your sentiments. I work with young guys and they raised the same point, accessibility to a system to kick tires is an issue for young guys considering a career as

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Hi David, You said: "... If we want to attract and retain young talent we need tools that they are familiar with ...". That is not the entire story. IBM also should realize that allowing people to experiment with z/OS via Hercules (for free) is in their best interest. How many more decades

Re: ZOAU [was: RE: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers]

On 3/3/23 00:22, Farley, Peter wrote: But I found that using them from the z/OS Unix command line embedded in a python script just as in the article link is a performance nightmare. Definitely NOT ready for production use. The idea is good but the implementation is awful. Take a close look

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 2/3/23 22:10, Rick Troth wrote: On 3/2/23 05:49, David Crayford wrote: I think 99% of the folks on this forum want a language that can run in a TSO/ISPF environment hosted in PDS data sets. Lua can do that and it's orders of magnitudes faster then REXX with the advantage of package

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 3/03/2023 1:36 am, David Spiegel wrote: Every time I've watched mainframe Java since OS/90 V1, it has been painfully slow. Have you ever watched a WAS startup? ... It takes about 15 minutes on the fastest mainframes. I think that's a reflection on WAS, not Java. When I was playing with

Re: ZOAU [was: RE: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers]

y, March 2, 2023 1:45 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: ZOAU [was: RE: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers] On 3/2/2023 8:22 AM, Farley, Peter wrote: > One thing I will add from actual testing I have done with ZO

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2023 9:10 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers On 3/2/23 05:49, David Crayford wrote: > I think 99% of the folks on this forum want a language that can

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

JOL is still available and up to date. On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 6:44 AM Jay Maynard wrote: > > "The mainframe needs to keep pace with the industry." > > I certainly hope that whatever the industry is doing that gets adapted to > the mainframe does so much more cleanly than, say, Python... The

Re: ZOAU [was: RE: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers]

On 3/2/2023 8:22 AM, Farley, Peter wrote: One thing I will add from actual testing I have done with ZOAU facilities -- they are HORRIBLY slow. Yes, you can run them from off-platform - that was their intended raison d'etre - and the fact that you even CAN do that if you really, really need

Re: ZOAU [was: RE: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers]

IN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers I haven't tried to write anything in Rexx, let alone a TCP server. I'd probably be inclined to use Go for that, though. JCL to Python: https://medium.com/theropod/the-jour

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

I chose external for a reason... to my knowledge, the breaches occurred with the cooperation of internal staff either purposely or through negligence... Like RACF admins being lazy and putting things in WARN mode then forgetting about it...

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Respectfully, I think your performance testing is hopelessly outdated. Starting a Java application server on z/OS takes a few seconds.  Starting DataStreamerApplication v1.1.5-SNAPSHOT using Java 1.8.0_351 on RSD6 with PID 33620928  No active profile set, falling back to 1 default profile:

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On newer machines there are specific mainframe firmware levels that should be kept in sync with the specific versions of the JRE ... otherwise ... the JRE takes a longer path -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Hi Paul, You said: "...JAVA is a good example of this. The mainframe's JAVA runtime is written to exploit machine assists and hardware instructions that a PC doesn't have..." Every time I've watched mainframe Java since OS/90 V1, it has been painfully slow. Have you ever watched a WAS startup?

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Hi Paul, You said: "...where no externally security breach has occurred…" If you're saying that no mainframe has ever been hacked, I am certain that statement is not true. The one in particular which comes to mind, involved incompetent security admin staff, READ Access to the RACF Database and

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

IMHO … this is the classic PC v Mainframe programmer debate… The same people that said Mainframes would be gone … when 40-50% of the worlds core data is still in on a mainframe… where a small staff of Systems programmers can manage and support entire enterprises and yet thousands of PC techs

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 3/2/23 05:49, David Crayford wrote: I think 99% of the folks on this forum want a language that can run in a TSO/ISPF environment hosted in PDS data sets. Lua can do that and it's orders of magnitudes faster then REXX with the advantage of package management. The next gen guys don't use

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

I use ooRexx as an integrated procedural language within my mainframe FICON attached Virtual Tape Appliance. Why? Because it is the primary procedural language used by Systems Programmers on the mainframe. We can use a well architected interface and the ADDRESS construct to develop and select

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Hi David, You said: "... REXX is a niche language that's only used to any great extend on mainframes and it's popularity is constantly eroding. The mainframe needs to keep pace with the industry.  ..." 1) " used to any great extend on mainframes ..."Last time I looked, this is a MAINFRAME

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 2/3/23 21:30, René Jansen wrote: Not that anyone would do that, of course, being so much easier with ISPF and Rexx and their shared variable pool. I have built dialogs in COBOL and PL/1 but nothing beats Rexx for that, having not to VDEFINE everything first. That's subjective. I find it

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

After watching this chain for awhile I have a couple of observations: 1) Not all compilers are equal in their tasks especially in the optimization area. Some are lazy and just convert the code to pseudo code and store it as an executable to remove one layer of processing. 2) The selection of a

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 2 Mar 2023, at 13:36, David Crayford wrote: > > On 2/3/23 19:48, René Jansen wrote: >>> I think 99% of the folks on this forum want a language that can run in a >>> TSO/ISPF environment hosted in PDS data sets. Lua can do that and it's >>> orders of magnitudes faster then REXX with the

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2023 7:36 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers On 2/3/23 19:48, René Jansen wrote: >> I think 99% of the folks on this forum want a language th

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Due to shop standard constraints I end up writing a client and a server in COBOL for a state agency. Code is still in use after 15 years and has not required any maintenance. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Colin Paice [colinpai...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2023 2:52 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers I think it is horses

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 2/3/23 20:57, Jay Maynard wrote: I haven't tried to write anything in Rexx, let alone a TCP server. I'd probably be inclined to use Go for that, though. JCL to Python: https://medium.com/theropod/the-journey-from-jcl-to-python-so-easy-even-an-old-mainframer-can-do-it-f088cc49366a Totally

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

I haven't tried to write anything in Rexx, let alone a TCP server. I'd probably be inclined to use Go for that, though. JCL to Python: https://medium.com/theropod/the-journey-from-jcl-to-python-so-easy-even-an-old-mainframer-can-do-it-f088cc49366a On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 6:54 AM David Crayford

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 2/3/23 20:43, Jay Maynard wrote: "The mainframe needs to keep pace with the industry." I certainly hope that whatever the industry is doing that gets adapted to the mainframe does so much more cleanly than, say, Python... Like what? Have you ever tried to write a TCP server in REXX? The

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

"The mainframe needs to keep pace with the industry." I certainly hope that whatever the industry is doing that gets adapted to the mainframe does so much more cleanly than, say, Python... The absolute abortion that is Python's idea of replacing JCL makes COBOL look like APL. On Thu, Mar 2, 2023

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 2/3/23 19:48, René Jansen wrote: I think 99% of the folks on this forum want a language that can run in a TSO/ISPF environment hosted in PDS data sets. Lua can do that and it's orders of magnitudes faster then REXX with the advantage of package management. The next gen guys don't use

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

> On 2 Mar 2023, at 11:49, David Crayford wrote: > > That shouldn't make any difference. SquareRoot is only called once. I had to > laugh when I noticed that it was implemented using Newton–Raphson in REXX. > How can a programming language not implement a sqrt() function? > You might want to

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 2/3/23 17:19, René Jansen wrote: Time for a new pc, I think. I installed numpy (which did not came standard) and I got I'm getting a m2 MacBook Pro (12-30) soon so I'll run it again and let you know. ➜ solution_3 git:(drag-race) ✗ python3 PrimePY.py Passes: 11241, Time:

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Time for a new pc, I think. I installed numpy (which did not came standard) and I got ➜ solution_3 git:(drag-race) ✗ python3 PrimePY.py Passes: 11241, Time: 5.000303332984913, Avg: 0.00044482726919179013, Limit: 100, Count: 78498, Valid: True and speaking about ooRexx, on my daily

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

I think it is horses for courses. Someone once said to me something along the lines of .. If you run it once a day write it in rexx (or Python) If you run it once an hour - write it in Java If you run it once a second write it in C If you run it 1000 times a second - write it in Assembler. It

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

After struggling with NetRexx, I've found that it could benefit from being as user-friendly as Kotlin or Groovy if the maintainers want to attract more users. On my machine, NetRexx is slower than Python but still respectable. However, both Python and NetRexx are outperformed by highly

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 2/3/23 00:54, René Jansen wrote: maybe I was not clear. it *is* an executable jar with the manifest built into it. Then somebody needs to fix the scripts so it's usable by just setting PATH and using the current working directory. On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:52, David Crayford wrote: On

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

so this should work for you: ➜ test git:(master) ✗ cat hello.nrx import java.lang.String say 'hello java' System.getProperty("java.version") loop i=long 0 to 10 hello(i) end loop i=long 0 to 10 hello(java.lang.String(i)) end method hello(j) say "hello" j method

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

maybe I was not clear. it *is* an executable jar with the manifest built into it. > On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:52, David Crayford wrote: > > On 2/3/23 00:34, René Jansen wrote: >> Yes, I know. But linking to other code in .class files does. You can run >> NetRexx from the .jar file. This finds all

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 2/3/23 00:34, René Jansen wrote: Yes, I know. But linking to other code in .class files does. You can run NetRexx from the .jar file. This finds all NetRexx classes. But let’s say you want to use a Java TreeMap, or some crypto algorithm like FPE in your program - it will look on CLASSPATH

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Yes, I know. But linking to other code in .class files does. You can run NetRexx from the .jar file. This finds all NetRexx classes. But let’s say you want to use a Java TreeMap, or some crypto algorithm like FPE in your program - it will look on CLASSPATH for those. > On 1 Mar 2023, at

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 2/3/23 00:20, René Jansen wrote: Well, it *is* an executable jar. Up to you. Executable Jars don't require setting a CLASSPATH Rene On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:17, David Crayford wrote: Why doesn't it just use an executable jar and use "-jar"?

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Well, it *is* an executable jar. Up to you. > On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:17, David Crayford wrote: > > Why doesn't it just use an executable jar and use "-jar"? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 1/3/23 23:54, René Jansen wrote: yes. https://github.com/RexxLA/NetRexx The problem there is, you have lots of other things on CLASSPATH if you do any real development. Also, someone might not use the nrc script at all - I don’t, because I just have an alias nrc=“java

Takeaway from the mentioned book referring BLAS in context of Python, Java, C ... Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 01.03.2023 15:15, René Jansen wrote: Well yes - that is really apples and oranges, and thanks for proving my point. Numpy leverages hand tuned assembly (BLAS) with hinting for different chip levels and architectures, and the difference with plain python is shown

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

yes. https://github.com/RexxLA/NetRexx The problem there is, you have lots of other things on CLASSPATH if you do any real development. Also, someone might not use the nrc script at all - I don’t, because I just have an alias nrc=“java org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC”. Also, when used in

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 1/3/23 23:39, René Jansen wrote: No, and I use it mostly on macOS and Linux.it is just what Java requires: the NetRexxC.jar file must be on CLASSPATH. It (CLASSPATH) takes files, not directories, you might be successful with a /* but I never do that. I can fix the "nrc" script to set the

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 1/3/23 23:13, David Crayford wrote: I'm happy to verify on my PC but I found NetRexx to be hopeless on Linux. I've added the /bin to my PATH but it's failing because it can't load the NetRexxC classes even though I have set the /lib directory on my CLASSPATH. Must be optimized for Windows

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

No, and I use it mostly on macOS and Linux.it is just what Java requires: the NetRexxC.jar file must be on CLASSPATH. It (CLASSPATH) takes files, not directories, you might be successful with a /* but I never do that. > On 1 Mar 2023, at 16:13, David Crayford wrote: > > I'm happy to verify

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

I'm happy to verify on my PC but I found NetRexx to be hopeless on Linux. I've added the /bin to my PATH but it's failing because it can't load the NetRexxC classes even though I have set the /lib directory on my CLASSPATH. Must be optimized for Windows weenies. On 1/3/23 22:35, René Jansen

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

by the way, thanks for that url. It seems my NetRexx smokes your Python with numpy - had not expected that. Note that NetRexx runs on z/OS and is well-maintained. ➜ solution_2 git:(drag-race) ✗ PrimeNetRexx.class joss_NetRexx;8766;5.000282;1;algorithm=base,bits=8,faithful=yes > On 1 Mar 2023,

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Well yes - that is really apples and oranges, and thanks for proving my point. Numpy leverages hand tuned assembly (BLAS) with hinting for different chip levels and architectures, and the difference with plain python is shown here: https://en.algorithmica.org/hpc/complexity/languages/ You can

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Have you heard of Dave Plummer's Primes benchmark project, which is widely regarded as a reliable way to test the speed of programming languages? In this test, ooRexx only managed to complete 13 passes in 5 seconds, while Python with numpy completed 6969 passes, thanks to its ability to

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 3/1/23 06:15, Rony G. Flatscher wrote: As ooRexx is CMake based this should be quite feasible for such a huge computer company (having so many excellently skilled employees) like IBM. CMake seems to work well for ooRexx. But I counter the idea that it really facilitates building of ooRexx

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

I agree with Rony. I think your ‘benchmarks’ are a bit synthetic but I understand your goal. I think calling ISPF ‘a relic’ and constantly badgering Rexx does not serve any purpose in front of this audience, most of which see ISPF as something shiny and worthwhile (e.g. to have on OS VS2 r3.8

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 6:15 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers On 28.02.2023 20:55, David Crayford wrote: > I respectfully express my opinion without intending to badmouth anyone. I > b

Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 28.02.2023 20:55, David Crayford wrote: I respectfully express my opinion without intending to badmouth anyone. I believe that benchmarking the performance of reading a large file is not an artificial test but rather a real-world use case that we encounter regularly. It is no secret that

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Your points are quite compelling. Speaking of documentation, it's fair to say that most developers dread writing it! While I'd love to create a comprehensive tutorial for pyzfile, the package reference is already quite thorough. https://daveyc.github.io/pyzfile/html/index.html On 1/3/23

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers On Tue, 28 Feb 2023, at 20:19, David Crayford wrote: > Utilizing > package managers to install packages is a fundamental aspect of > utilizing contemporary programming languages. The package manager aspect os more or less irrelevant though. Wha

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On Tue, 28 Feb 2023, at 20:19, David Crayford wrote: > Utilizing > package managers to install packages is a fundamental aspect of > utilizing contemporary programming languages. The package manager aspect os more or less irrelevant though. What matters is the wealth of add-ons. (And to my

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 28/02/2023 11:28 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: What about Java? How well does JIT work? Java and the JIT compiler is very good. It always depends on the benchmark. For some stuff I think it's close to C. JIT compiles to machine code, and there are optimizations available in a JIT compiler

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

My sentiments exactly. I spend most of my time in USS and just get used to crossing the border when needed. Matt Hogstrom “It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive." — Hogstrom > On Feb 28, 2023, at 1:48 AM, David Crayford wrote: > > On 28/2/23 13:55, Gibney, Dave wrote: >> LIKE=a

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers The pyzfile module source code has been available on Github [1] since its inception, and it can be considered the benchmark implementation for MVS data set I/O in Python. Many people, including IBM employees, have expressed interest

Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

/VM. However, for off the shelf package libraries, Perl and Python are admittedly ahead of REXX. What are the Python and Ruby equivalents of CPAN? I've found extending REXX for CMS and TSO to be easy, although admittedly assembler is mothers' milk to me and I didn't have to deal with LE issues

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of David Crayford Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 3:10 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers The pyzfile module source code has been available on Github [1] since its inception, and it can be considered the benchmark

Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 28.02.2023 16:15, Seymour J Metz wrote: What happens if you change the benchmark to use the array class and DO OVER? Not much. ooRexx uses references to objects which can be of any type unlike strictly typed languages that restrict the types that can be assigned to arrays. Any such stored

Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

- again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers On 28.02.2023 13:44, David Crayford wrote: > ooRexx has two main issues: its a superset of REXX, which is a subpar > programming language, and it > consumes a lot of CPU resources. Each language clause in ooRexx is a C++ > object

Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

ntegrate it into z/OS or z/VM. However, for off the shelf package libraries, Perl and Python are admittedly ahead of REXX. What are the Python and Ruby equivalents of CPAN? I've found extending REXX for CMS and TSO to be easy, although admittedly assembler is mothers' milk to me and I didn't have to deal wit

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

You may want to take a look at MIR (Medium Internal Representation) which is a framework for writing JIT's. It's experimental but looks to build on and improve LLVM. It supports codegen for s390x so should run fine on z/OS. [1] https://github.com/vnmakarov/mir [2]

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 7:54 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers On 28/2/23 20:41, René Jansen wrote: > Depending on what you test and what you want to see of course. You did use > the Rexx compiler? My tests are quite straightforward.

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

That is interesting because I was benchmarking it years ago it was only slower with programs that did a lot of external calls, and all programs with arithmetic were a lot faster than the interpreter. Anyway, all very good observations for new Rexx implementations. I share your observations

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[jaymayn...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 7:31 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers The discussion about standard libraries like Python's came up in a recent discussion on LinkedIn about REXX, and David Boyes said he was working on something along

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 28/2/23 20:41, René Jansen wrote: Depending on what you test and what you want to see of course. You did use the Rexx compiler? My tests are quite straightforward. I take a 12,000 cylinder SMF sequential file and read it using different programming languages and then compare the timing

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers ooRexx has two main issues: its a superset of REXX, which is a subpar programming language, and it consumes a lot of CPU resources. Each language clause in ooRexx is a C++ object that invokes dynamic dispatch whenever it's executed. Unlike most

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

On 28/2/23 20:41, René Jansen wrote: Depending on what you test and what you want to see of course. You did use the Rexx compiler? Yes, and the REXX compiler was slower than the interpreter. I profiled it using Application Performance Analyzer and it was spending 90% of it's time in GETMAIN

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

__ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 12:39 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers While I understand that it may be an unpopular opinion

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers On 25/2/23 01:23, Farley, Peter wrote: Python on the mainframe is pretty good, but still can't beat out Rexx in performance even when the Rex script needs to use BPXWUNIX and friends to access z/OS Unix file systems, I have

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Depending on what you test and what you want to see of course. You did use the Rexx compiler? René. > On 28 Feb 2023, at 06:47, David Crayford wrote: > > On 25/2/23 01:23, Farley, Peter wrote: >> Python on the mainframe is pretty good, but still can't beat out Rexx in >> performance even

Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

__ > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 12:47 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers > > On 25/2/2

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