subject:"Has anyone"

> On 24 Aug 2023, at 5:04 am, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> 
> It's not relevant where vi is running; what's relevant is what's on the other 
> end of the pipe. If it's a 3270, real or simulated, then it's block mode, 
> with all of its pluses and minuses. If it's, e.g., Telnet with a VT100 
> profile, then vi can respond to keystrokes in (almost) real time.

I already made the point that Vim is running over SSH so take 3270 and Telnet 
out of the discussion. 3270 was designed for networks in the dark ages. ISPF is 
still a brilliant platform but it’s no match for ncurses applications that can 
now leverage cool unicode fonts and other stuff. 

> 
> 
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 4:17 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
> 
> On 24/8/2023 3:51 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>> Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on 
>> one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on 
>> one end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is 
>> in the details.
>> 
> It's running in a Docker container on a headless server. The only
> involvement of the PC is the terminal emulator which is not doing
> anything special other then rendering. Vim works just as well running on
> z/OS.
> 
> 
>> --
>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>> 
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
>> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
>> 
>>> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros
>>> On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in
>> PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a 
>> PC for full duplex. It’s a nurses application.
>> 
>> 
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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

While TSPF is a very good point-in-time clone of ISPF, it also supports things 
like cut-and-paste, so it's more like running ISPF from an InfoWindow terminal 
that, e.g., a 3180. I find line commandsd to be good servants but poor masters; 
use them for the intended purposes and they are very usefull. You have to carbe 
the bird at the joints.

ObTheOneThatGotAway I find that whatever editor I am using, I miss features 
that some other editor has.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 4:59 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> It's a start, but I would love the opportunity to fork out $ for a full 
> clone. Not that I have any objections to using free software when it suits my 
> needs, but I won't ignore a useful program just because it's not open source. 
> Take Tritus SPF (TSPF), but not while I'm still breathing; it was money well 
> spent.

I find this interesting as one of my ex-colleagues was the same. He used SPF/PC 
and the Tachyon assembler. When SPF/PC became obsolete he tried to move to 
Slickedit which has an ISPF emulation mode. It was painful watching him code as 
line commands are really inefficient but his muscle memory was such that he 
just couldn’t change. Flip side of the coin is that one of my esteemed 
colleagues switched from ISPF to Slickedit and it was a success. He just bit 
the bullet and learned a new editor. I’ve done this several times to great 
effect. He even presented the experience to our team. Another example is the 
architect of the product I’m working on. Long term mainframe guy, ex-IBM DE and 
general great guy who never wants to stop learning. He taught himself how to 
use VS Code, markdown and Git so he could contribute to our open source 
documentation [1]. You are never too old to learn new things. And you should, 
because they are generally much better.

[1] https://z-open-data.github.io/instana-topics/
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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

It's not relevant where vi is running; what's relevant is what's on the other 
end of the pipe. If it's a 3270, real or simulated, then it's block mode, with 
all of its pluses and minuses. If it's, e.g., Telnet with a VT100 profile, then 
vi can respond to keystrokes in (almost) real time.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 4:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

On 24/8/2023 3:51 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on 
> one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on one 
> end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is in the 
> details.
>
It's running in a Docker container on a headless server. The only
involvement of the PC is the terminal emulator which is not doing
anything special other then rendering. Vim works just as well running on
z/OS.


> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
>
>> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>>
>>> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros
>> On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in
> PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a PC 
> for full duplex. It’s a nurses application.
>
>
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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> 
> It's a start, but I would love the opportunity to fork out $ for a full 
> clone. Not that I have any objections to using free software when it suits my 
> needs, but I won't ignore a useful program just because it's not open source. 
> Take Tritus SPF (TSPF), but not while I'm still breathing; it was money well 
> spent.

I find this interesting as one of my ex-colleagues was the same. He used SPF/PC 
and the Tachyon assembler. When SPF/PC became obsolete he tried to move to 
Slickedit which has an ISPF emulation mode. It was painful watching him code as 
line commands are really inefficient but his muscle memory was such that he 
just couldn’t change. Flip side of the coin is that one of my esteemed 
colleagues switched from ISPF to Slickedit and it was a success. He just bit 
the bullet and learned a new editor. I’ve done this several times to great 
effect. He even presented the experience to our team. Another example is the 
architect of the product I’m working on. Long term mainframe guy, ex-IBM DE and 
general great guy who never wants to stop learning. He taught himself how to 
use VS Code, markdown and Git so he could contribute to our open source 
documentation [1]. You are never too old to learn new things. And you should, 
because they are generally much better. 

[1] https://z-open-data.github.io/instana-topics/
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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

2023-08-23 Thread Bob Bridges

By definition it's not just a good indicator, it's a perfect indicator, that 
the editor lacks the feature(s) I wanted for my own idiosyncratic use.  I don't 
usually fault the editor for that; I can almost always think up features that 
no one else would want.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If you have a problem with me, text me.  And if you don’t have my number, 
you don’t know me well enough to have a problem with me.  -Christian Bale */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Crayford
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 00:18

hahaha! Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros 
https://github.com/ycm-core/YouCompleteMe. Talking of macros, if you need to 
write a lot of them it's usually a good indicator that your editor lacks 
features.

--- On 23/8/2023 10:29 am, Steve Beaver wrote:
> I have used ISPF for ever and i can out do and any using VI 10 to ispf 
> written for Linux/Unix

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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)


On 24/8/2023 3:51 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on one 
end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on one end 
of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is in the 
details.

It's running in a Docker container on a headless server. The only 
involvement of the PC is the terminal emulator which is not doing 
anything special other then rendering. Vim works just as well running on 
z/OS.




--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)


On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz  wrote:


Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros

On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in

PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a PC 
for full duplex. It’s a nurses application.


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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on one 
end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on one end 
of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is in the 
details.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
>> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros
>
> On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in

PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a PC 
for full duplex. It’s a nurses application.

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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> 
>> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros
> 
> On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in

PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a PC 
for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. 


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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

> lspf

It's a start, but I would love the opportunity to fork out $ for a full clone. 
Not that I have any objections to using free software when it suits my needs, 
but I won't ignore a useful program just because it's not open source. Take 
Tritus SPF (TSPF), but not while I'm still breathing; it was money well spent.

> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros

On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in, which makes allows 
for smoother completion. On a block mode terminal, you could always assign a 
PFK to an edit macro, but that leads to a clunkier user interface. I'd say it's 
still worth doing.

As a TSO bigot, my favorite editing environment on the mainframe is XEDIT 
*, mainly because of SET PENDING. If THE ever fully supports XEDIT 
macros using SET PENDING, I'll probably start using it.

* I'm willing to scarf up good tools where I find them.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 12:17 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

On 23/8/2023 10:29 am, Steve Beaver wrote:
> I have tried VI and I find it to slow. I would use eMacs. Prefer to ispf 
> ported to Linux/Unix.

https://github.com/daniel64/lspf


> I have used ISPF for ever and i can out do and any using VI 10 to ispf 
> written for Linux/Unix

hahaha! Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros
https://github.com/ycm-core/YouCompleteMe. Talking of macros, if you
need to write a lot of them it's usually a good indicator that your
editor lacks features.


>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> No one said I could type with one thumb
>
>> On Aug 22, 2023, at 20:32, Tomasz Rola  wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote:
>>> I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-)
>> Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their
>> ability to use such a narrow bandwith.
>>
>>> I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being
>>> almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it.
>> Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool
>> which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for
>> anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is
>> avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes
>> are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In
>> some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs.
>>
>> I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code
>> I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome.
>>
>> BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30
>> megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure
>> of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is
>> just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not
>> blazingly fast - about five seconds.
>>
>> Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer
>> "hexdump -C >
>> BTW2, emacs is the only editor I know about that has built in
>> psychiatric help. And no, this is not one of those Lady Gaga
>> jokes. Try "M-x doctor".
>>
>>> I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for
>>> Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things
>>> done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert,
>>> delete, split and join lines etc.
>> U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very
>> young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like
>> attanaible goal for me :-).
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Tomasz Rola
>>
>> --
>> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
>> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
>> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
>> ** **
>> ** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
>>
>> --
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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

> Maybe people say so because they expected something else.

"Humor is such a subjective thing!" (B5). My guess is that the quip came from 
an emacs user who was perfectly content with it.

> Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs

Is there a popular distribution of Linux that doesn't have emacs either in the 
base or in its repositories?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Tomasz Rola [rto...@ceti.com.pl]
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 11:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 12:51:00PM +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > I was just using emacs as ordinary text editor
>
> For me, an ordinary text editor is one that includes a good macro
> facility, and I write new macros at the drop of a hat. If and when I
> learn emacs, learning LISP will be part and parcel of that.
>
> "Emacs is a great operating system that desperately needs a text editor"

Maybe people say so because they expected something else.

Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs (i.e. wholesome,
whereas some systems divide whole into some parts, like binaries plus
ELisp files compiled for speed, ELisp source code, manuals)... but if
you have it all, then just do "C-h i" and you will be presented, among
other things, with:

* Emacs: (emacs).   The extensible self-documenting text
  editor.
* Emacs FAQ: (efaq).Frequently Asked Questions about
  Emacs.
* Elisp: (elisp).   The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual.
* Emacs Lisp Intro: (eintr).A simple introduction to Emacs Lisp
  programming.

This will be info, a builtin hypertext documentation system.

Other source of hints and information are:

https://wikemacs.org/wiki/Main_Page

https://www.emacswiki.org/

And to up the spirit:

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CategoryHumor

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsNilism

And org-mode really useful part of it:

https://wikemacs.org/wiki/Org-mode

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/OrgMode

and some obligatory short movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnMntOQjs7Q

--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

Whoops! Forgot the link https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode

> On 23 Aug 2023, at 12:19 pm, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
> I noticed that there is LSP support for Emacs. That's super important in the 
> modern world of language servers.
> 
> On 23/8/2023 9:32 am, Tomasz Rola wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote:
>>> I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-)
>> Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their
>> ability to use such a narrow bandwith.
>> 
>>> I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being
>>> almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it.
>> Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool
>> which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for
>> anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is
>> avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes
>> are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In
>> some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs.
>> 
>> I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code
>> I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome.
>> 
>> BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30
>> megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure
>> of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is
>> just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not
>> blazingly fast - about five seconds.
>> 
>> Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer
>>  "hexdump -C > 
>> BTW2, emacs is the only editor I know about that has built in
>> psychiatric help. And no, this is not one of those Lady Gaga
>> jokes. Try "M-x doctor".
>> 
>>> I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for
>>> Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things
>>> done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert,
>>> delete, split and join lines etc.
>> U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very
>> young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like
>> attanaible goal for me :-).
>> 

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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

I noticed that there is LSP support for Emacs. That's super important in 
the modern world of language servers.


On 23/8/2023 9:32 am, Tomasz Rola wrote:

On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote:

I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-)

Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their
ability to use such a narrow bandwith.


I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being
almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it.

Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool
which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for
anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is
avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes
are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In
some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs.

I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code
I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome.

BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30
megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure
of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is
just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not
blazingly fast - about five seconds.

Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer
  "hexdump -C 
I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for
Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things
done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert,
delete, split and join lines etc.

U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very
young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like
attanaible goal for me :-).



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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)


On 23/8/2023 10:29 am, Steve Beaver wrote:

I have tried VI and I find it to slow. I would use eMacs. Prefer to ispf ported 
to Linux/Unix.


https://github.com/daniel64/lspf



I have used ISPF for ever and i can out do and any using VI 10 to ispf written 
for Linux/Unix


hahaha! Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros 
https://github.com/ycm-core/YouCompleteMe. Talking of macros, if you 
need to write a lot of them it's usually a good indicator that your 
editor lacks features.





Sent from my iPhone

No one said I could type with one thumb


On Aug 22, 2023, at 20:32, Tomasz Rola  wrote:

On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote:

I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-)

Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their
ability to use such a narrow bandwith.


I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being
almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it.

Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool
which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for
anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is
avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes
are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In
some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs.

I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code
I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome.

BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30
megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure
of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is
just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not
blazingly fast - about five seconds.

Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer
"hexdump -C 
I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for
Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things
done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert,
delete, split and join lines etc.

U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very
young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like
attanaible goal for me :-).

--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

2023-08-22 Thread Tomasz Rola

On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 12:51:00PM +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > I was just using emacs as ordinary text editor
> 
> For me, an ordinary text editor is one that includes a good macro
> facility, and I write new macros at the drop of a hat. If and when I
> learn emacs, learning LISP will be part and parcel of that.
> 
> "Emacs is a great operating system that desperately needs a text editor"

Maybe people say so because they expected something else.

Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs (i.e. wholesome,
whereas some systems divide whole into some parts, like binaries plus
ELisp files compiled for speed, ELisp source code, manuals)... but if
you have it all, then just do "C-h i" and you will be presented, among
other things, with:

* Emacs: (emacs).   The extensible self-documenting text
  editor.
* Emacs FAQ: (efaq).Frequently Asked Questions about
  Emacs.
* Elisp: (elisp).   The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual.
* Emacs Lisp Intro: (eintr).A simple introduction to Emacs Lisp 
  programming.

This will be info, a builtin hypertext documentation system.

Other source of hints and information are:

https://wikemacs.org/wiki/Main_Page

https://www.emacswiki.org/

And to up the spirit:

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CategoryHumor

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsNilism

And org-mode really useful part of it:

https://wikemacs.org/wiki/Org-mode

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/OrgMode

and some obligatory short movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnMntOQjs7Q

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

2023-08-22 Thread Steve Beaver

I have tried VI and I find it to slow. I would use eMacs. Prefer to ispf ported 
to Linux/Unix. I have used ISPF for ever and i can out do and any using VI 10 
to ispf written for Linux/Unix 

Sent from my iPhone

No one said I could type with one thumb 

> On Aug 22, 2023, at 20:32, Tomasz Rola  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote:
>> I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-)
> 
> Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their
> ability to use such a narrow bandwith.
> 
>> I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being
>> almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it.
> 
> Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool
> which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for
> anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is
> avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes
> are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In
> some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs.
> 
> I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code
> I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. 
> 
> BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30
> megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure
> of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is
> just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not
> blazingly fast - about five seconds.
> 
> Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer
> "hexdump -C  
> BTW2, emacs is the only editor I know about that has built in
> psychiatric help. And no, this is not one of those Lady Gaga
> jokes. Try "M-x doctor".
> 
>> I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for
>> Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things
>> done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert,
>> delete, split and join lines etc.
> 
> U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very
> young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like
> attanaible goal for me :-).
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola
> 
> --
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
> ** **
> ** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

2023-08-22 Thread Tomasz Rola

On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote:
> I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-)

Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their
ability to use such a narrow bandwith.

> I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being
> almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it.

Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool
which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for
anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is
avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes
are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In
some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs.

I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code
I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. 

BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30
megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure
of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is
just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not
blazingly fast - about five seconds.

Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer
 "hexdump -C  I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for
> Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things
> done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert,
> delete, split and join lines etc.

U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very
young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like
attanaible goal for me :-).

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)

> On 22 Aug 2023, at 10:10 pm, Gord Tomlin  
> wrote:
> 
> On 2023-08-22 07:17 AM, David Crayford wrote:
>> https://tree-sitter.github.io/tree-sitter/ 
> 
> That looks like a gem!

Oh yeah! It’s next level and it's an incremental parser. 

> 
> --
> 
> Regards, Gord Tomlin
> Action Software International
> (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
> Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
> Support: https://actionsoftware.com/support/
> 
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Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)

2023-08-22 Thread Gord Tomlin


On 2023-08-22 07:17 AM, David Crayford wrote:
https://tree-sitter.github.io/tree-sitter/ 


That looks like a gem!

--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
Support: https://actionsoftware.com/support/

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Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)

2023-08-22 Thread Seymour J Metz

It's true that the original vi was based on TECO, but I believe that it was 
rewritten long since.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Hayim Sokolsky [hsokol...@rocketsoftware.com]
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 6:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)

I remember using:

0lt$$
(the $$ is how escape-escape echoed.)

More times than I can count... but then again, it's what you had to do when 
programming on a teletype.

The ed and vi commands are actually based upon TECO. As far as I know vi is 
just a visual decedent of TECO.



Hayim Sokolsky (he/him/his)
Director, Software Engineering
Rocket Software, USA
E: hsokol...@rocketsoftware.com
W:RocketSoftware.com


The views I have expressed in this email are my own personal views, and are not 
endorsed or supported by, and do not necessarily express or reflect, the views, 
positions or strategies of my employer.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Leonard D Woren
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 4:13 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)

EXTERNAL EMAIL





Bob Bridges wrote on 8/16/2023 8:23 AM:
> Too many years ago; I don't remember.  And it isn't as if
> "unintuitive" is a fatal error in editors or any other application;
> TECO (anyone ever use
> that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall -
> with early automation features that I used extensively, and it was
> full of odd uses for  and '$' and some other characters, but it
> did a good job - once I was used to it.  But whatever this Unix editor
> was, a half hour wasn't enough for me to learn much about it or get used to 
> anything.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* People who can't distinguish between "etymology" and "entomology"
> bug me in ways I cannot put into words.  -Tal Waterhouse */

IBM-MAIN relevancy:  ISPF EDIT still rules!  (But now I should learn
regexps.)

I never tried TECO, after reading "Real Programmers Don't Use PASCAL"
40 years ago.  Extract:

 Some of the concepts in these Xerox editors have been incorporated 
into editors running on more reasonably named operating systems -- EMACS and VI 
being two.  The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers consider 
"what you see is what you get" to be just as bad a concept in Text Editors as 
it is in women.  No the Real Programmer wants a "you asked for it, you got it"
text editor -- complicated, cryptic, powerful, unforgiving, dangerous.
TECO, to
be precise.

 It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely 
resembles transmission line noise than readable text [4].  One of the more 
entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a command line 
and try to guess what it does.  Just about any possible typing error while 
talking with TECO will probably destroy your program, or even worse -- 
introduce subtle and mysterious bugs in a once working subroutine.


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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-22 Thread Seymour J Metz

> I was just using emacs as ordinary text editor

For me, an ordinary text editor is one that includes a good macro facility, and 
I write new macros at the drop of a hat. If and when I learn emacs, learning 
LISP will be part and parcel of that.

"Emacs is a great operating system that desperately needs a text editor"

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Tomasz Rola [rto...@ceti.com.pl]
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 2:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 02:57:55PM +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > But I'll counter with, why should people need to learn -- what I'll
> > politely call -- a non-intuitive editor to do occasional simple edits
> > of text files?
>
> Understood, but vi and emacs are still on my list of software to learn.

I found emacs to be quite easy to learn. One just starts it and needs
to actually read what the thing is saying (one of the most fruitful
half hours ever was, for me, reading emacs tutorial, about 29 years
ago). However, bear in mind, if you start using emacs, sooner or later
you will learn at least a bit of Emacs Lisp (Elisp). If nothing else,
customising (writing one's own .emacs file) is done in Elisp. No worry
though, they have a manual for the language, and when I was learning
this and that Lisp, their manual was quite nice to have for
clarification on various subjects.

Actually, I did quite a lot of customising by finding interesting
pieces in other people's .emacs files and shamelessly copying.

But one can also customise it using built in system for it - without
even knowing there is any Lisp involved (menu Options / Customise
Emacs is that, I think). Still, there is plenty of Lisp beneath for
those who want to look at it.

But for many years before doing my own dot-emacs, I was just using
emacs as ordinary text editor, file browser, manpage reader, source
code viewer etc. Also, web browser. Just pay attention and do not do
all this in a single emacs process, just in case.

--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

--
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Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)


On 22/8/2023 4:12 am, Leonard D Woren wrote:

Bob Bridges wrote on 8/16/2023 8:23 AM:
Too many years ago; I don't remember.  And it isn't as if 
"unintuitive" is a

fatal error in editors or any other application; TECO (anyone ever use
that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall 
- with
early automation features that I used extensively, and it was full of 
odd
uses for  and '$' and some other characters, but it did a good 
job -

once I was used to it.  But whatever this Unix editor was, a half hour
wasn't enough for me to learn much about it or get used to anything.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* People who can't distinguish between "etymology" and "entomology" 
bug me

in ways I cannot put into words.  -Tal Waterhouse */


IBM-MAIN relevancy:  ISPF EDIT still rules!


If the only tool you know is a hammer?



  (But now I should learn regexps.)


I noticed that z/OS 3.1 has some ISPF enhancements for syntax 
highlighting. What would it take to write a tree-sitter edit macro for 
ISPF edit? ;- It shouldn't be too difficult to write grammars for 
mainframe languages


https://tree-sitter.github.io/tree-sitter/




I never tried TECO, after reading "Real Programmers Don't Use PASCAL" 
40 years ago.  Extract:


    Some of the concepts in these Xerox editors have been 
incorporated into
editors running on more reasonably named operating systems -- EMACS 
and VI
being two.  The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers 
consider
"what you see is what you get" to be just as bad a concept in Text 
Editors as
it is in women.  No the Real Programmer wants a "you asked for it, you 
got it"
text editor -- complicated, cryptic, powerful, unforgiving, dangerous. 
TECO, to

be precise.

    It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely
resembles transmission line noise than readable text [4].  One of the 
more
entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a 
command line
and try to guess what it does.  Just about any possible typing error 
while

talking with TECO will probably destroy your program, or even worse --
introduce subtle and mysterious bugs in a once working subroutine.


--
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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-22 Thread Rupert Reynolds

I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-)

I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being
almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it.

I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for
Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things
done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert,
delete, split and join lines etc.

Roops

On Tue, 22 Aug 2023, 07:07 Tomasz Rola,  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 02:57:55PM +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > > But I'll counter with, why should people need to learn -- what I'll
> > > politely call -- a non-intuitive editor to do occasional simple edits
> > > of text files?
> >
> > Understood, but vi and emacs are still on my list of software to learn.
>
> I found emacs to be quite easy to learn. One just starts it and needs
> to actually read what the thing is saying (one of the most fruitful
> half hours ever was, for me, reading emacs tutorial, about 29 years
> ago). However, bear in mind, if you start using emacs, sooner or later
> you will learn at least a bit of Emacs Lisp (Elisp). If nothing else,
> customising (writing one's own .emacs file) is done in Elisp. No worry
> though, they have a manual for the language, and when I was learning
> this and that Lisp, their manual was quite nice to have for
> clarification on various subjects.
>
> Actually, I did quite a lot of customising by finding interesting
> pieces in other people's .emacs files and shamelessly copying.
>
> But one can also customise it using built in system for it - without
> even knowing there is any Lisp involved (menu Options / Customise
> Emacs is that, I think). Still, there is plenty of Lisp beneath for
> those who want to look at it.
>
> But for many years before doing my own dot-emacs, I was just using
> emacs as ordinary text editor, file browser, manpage reader, source
> code viewer etc. Also, web browser. Just pay attention and do not do
> all this in a single emacs process, just in case.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola
>
> --
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
> ** **
> ** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-22 Thread Tomasz Rola

On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 02:57:55PM +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > But I'll counter with, why should people need to learn -- what I'll
> > politely call -- a non-intuitive editor to do occasional simple edits 
> > of text files?
> 
> Understood, but vi and emacs are still on my list of software to learn.

I found emacs to be quite easy to learn. One just starts it and needs
to actually read what the thing is saying (one of the most fruitful
half hours ever was, for me, reading emacs tutorial, about 29 years
ago). However, bear in mind, if you start using emacs, sooner or later
you will learn at least a bit of Emacs Lisp (Elisp). If nothing else,
customising (writing one's own .emacs file) is done in Elisp. No worry
though, they have a manual for the language, and when I was learning
this and that Lisp, their manual was quite nice to have for
clarification on various subjects.

Actually, I did quite a lot of customising by finding interesting
pieces in other people's .emacs files and shamelessly copying.

But one can also customise it using built in system for it - without
even knowing there is any Lisp involved (menu Options / Customise
Emacs is that, I think). Still, there is plenty of Lisp beneath for
those who want to look at it.

But for many years before doing my own dot-emacs, I was just using
emacs as ordinary text editor, file browser, manpage reader, source
code viewer etc. Also, web browser. Just pay attention and do not do
all this in a single emacs process, just in case.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)

2023-08-21 Thread Bob Bridges

Heh, heh, a decedent, really?  So vi really is dead?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Whatever you were looking for doesn't currently exist at this address. 
Unless you were looking for this error page, in which case: Congrats! You 
totally found it.  -404 message */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Hayim Sokolsky
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 18:35

I remember using "0lt$$" (the $$ is how escape-escape echoed) more times than I 
can count... but then again, it's what you had to do when programming on a 
teletype.

The ed and vi commands are actually based upon TECO. As far as I know vi is 
just a visual decedent of TECO.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Leonard D Woren
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 4:13 PM

I never tried TECO, after reading "Real Programmers Don't Use PASCAL"
40 years ago.  Extract:

It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely resembles 
transmission line noise than readable text.  One of the more entertaining games 
to play with TECO is to type your name in as a command line and try to guess 
what it does

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Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)

2023-08-21 Thread Hayim Sokolsky

I remember using:

0lt$$
(the $$ is how escape-escape echoed.)

More times than I can count... but then again, it's what you had to do when 
programming on a teletype.

The ed and vi commands are actually based upon TECO. As far as I know vi is 
just a visual decedent of TECO.



Hayim Sokolsky (he/him/his)
Director, Software Engineering
Rocket Software, USA
E: hsokol...@rocketsoftware.com
W:RocketSoftware.com


The views I have expressed in this email are my own personal views, and are not 
endorsed or supported by, and do not necessarily express or reflect, the views, 
positions or strategies of my employer.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Leonard D Woren
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 4:13 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)

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Bob Bridges wrote on 8/16/2023 8:23 AM:
> Too many years ago; I don't remember.  And it isn't as if
> "unintuitive" is a fatal error in editors or any other application;
> TECO (anyone ever use
> that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall -
> with early automation features that I used extensively, and it was
> full of odd uses for  and '$' and some other characters, but it
> did a good job - once I was used to it.  But whatever this Unix editor
> was, a half hour wasn't enough for me to learn much about it or get used to 
> anything.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* People who can't distinguish between "etymology" and "entomology"
> bug me in ways I cannot put into words.  -Tal Waterhouse */

IBM-MAIN relevancy:  ISPF EDIT still rules!  (But now I should learn
regexps.)

I never tried TECO, after reading "Real Programmers Don't Use PASCAL"
40 years ago.  Extract:

 Some of the concepts in these Xerox editors have been incorporated 
into editors running on more reasonably named operating systems -- EMACS and VI 
being two.  The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers consider 
"what you see is what you get" to be just as bad a concept in Text Editors as 
it is in women.  No the Real Programmer wants a "you asked for it, you got it"
text editor -- complicated, cryptic, powerful, unforgiving, dangerous.
TECO, to
be precise.

 It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely 
resembles transmission line noise than readable text [4].  One of the more 
entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a command line 
and try to guess what it does.  Just about any possible typing error while 
talking with TECO will probably destroy your program, or even worse -- 
introduce subtle and mysterious bugs in a once working subroutine.


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Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)

2023-08-21 Thread Bob Bridges

LOL, yeah, I guess that's true.  But I found it pretty powerful at the time, 
before full-screen editors were available to me.

Actually I still think it was powerful.  There are reasons to like WordPad, for 
instance (which I use extensively for low-level documentation), but when I want 
to do something complicated in the way of editing - not just lots of typing 
from scratch, but complex edits - well, nowadays I'm content with REXX but back 
then I would have enthused over TECO.  In fact I ~did~ enthuse over it, without 
winning many converts as I recall.

But yeah, the comment about transmission noise is pretty accurate.

And yes, I should learn ISFP's regexps.  I finally started using VBS's version 
a couple years ago, so I can no longer argue against the utility of regular 
expressions in general.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* God gives what He has, not what He has not; He gives the happiness that 
there is, not the happiness that is not.  To be God — to be like God and to 
share His goodness in creaturely response — to be miserable — those are the 
only three alternatives.  If we will not learn to eat the only food that the 
universe grows — the only food that any possible universe ever can grow — then 
we must starve eternally.  -from "The Problem of Pain" by C S Lewis. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Leonard D Woren
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 16:13

IBM-MAIN relevancy:  ISPF EDIT still rules!  (But now I should learn
regexps.)

I never tried TECO, after reading "Real Programmers Don't Use PASCAL" 
40 years ago.  Extract:

It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely resembles 
transmission line noise than readable text.  One of the more entertaining games 
to play with TECO is to type your name in as a command line and try to guess 
what it does

--- Bob Bridges wrote on 8/16/2023 8:23 AM:
> ...TECO (anyone ever use that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP 
> platform as
> I recall - with early automation features that I used extensively, and it was 
> full
> of odd uses for  and '$' and some other characters, but it did a good 
> job -
> once I was used to it.  But whatever this Unix editor was, a half hour wasn't 
> enough
> for me to learn much about it or get used to anything.

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TECO (was Re: Has anyone)

2023-08-21 Thread Leonard D Woren


Bob Bridges wrote on 8/16/2023 8:23 AM:

Too many years ago; I don't remember.  And it isn't as if "unintuitive" is a
fatal error in editors or any other application; TECO (anyone ever use
that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall - with
early automation features that I used extensively, and it was full of odd
uses for  and '$' and some other characters, but it did a good job -
once I was used to it.  But whatever this Unix editor was, a half hour
wasn't enough for me to learn much about it or get used to anything.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* People who can't distinguish between "etymology" and "entomology" bug me
in ways I cannot put into words.  -Tal Waterhouse */


IBM-MAIN relevancy:  ISPF EDIT still rules!  (But now I should learn 
regexps.)


I never tried TECO, after reading "Real Programmers Don't Use PASCAL" 
40 years ago.  Extract:


    Some of the concepts in these Xerox editors have been 
incorporated into

editors running on more reasonably named operating systems -- EMACS and VI
being two.  The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers 
consider
"what you see is what you get" to be just as bad a concept in Text 
Editors as
it is in women.  No the Real Programmer wants a "you asked for it, you 
got it"
text editor -- complicated, cryptic, powerful, unforgiving, dangerous. 
TECO, to

be precise.

    It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely
resembles transmission line noise than readable text [4].  One of the more
entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a 
command line

and try to guess what it does.  Just about any possible typing error while
talking with TECO will probably destroy your program, or even worse --
introduce subtle and mysterious bugs in a once working subroutine.


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone

2023-08-19 Thread Tom Brennan

He had me at "Supports EBCDIC".  The other 2 hex editors on my PC don't, 
and I've had trouble in the past trying to convert in my head, 
especially lower case.  One time I remember running a test and purposely 
used only numbers as data because I could translate those easily.


On 8/19/2023 10:29 AM, Radoslaw Skorupka wrote:

Other advantages of HxD are:
1. It can edit large files. Much larger than you RAM.
2. It can be set up to "support LRECL" - very useful when working with 
files downloaded from z/OS (without CRLF).





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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone

2023-08-19 Thread Radoslaw Skorupka


Other advantages of HxD are:
1. It can edit large files. Much larger than you RAM.
2. It can be set up to "support LRECL" - very useful when working with 
files downloaded from z/OS (without CRLF).



--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




W dniu 16.08.2023 o 00:46, Charles Mills pisze:

I use it. I have nothing to really compare it to, but it does the job for me. 
Supports EBCDIC.

Charles

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 22:16:16 +, Pommier, Rex  
wrote:


I highly recommend "HxD hex edit".


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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-19 Thread Radoslaw Skorupka

EBCDIC - WnBrowse. Very small, quite old, free. BTW: When no dedicated 
tool is available, then regular MS Word could be used.
XMIT - a bunch of viewers listed on cbttape.org. My preferred one is 
XiFrame Xmit Explorer.


BTW2: The above tools combined with 7zip or WinRAR provide quite nice 
set of tools for viewing SMP/E stuff. :-)


BTW3: Fortunately it is much more on-topic than MS Office. :-)

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





W dniu 15.08.2023 o 23:58, Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw pisze:

For a HEX viewr, try the V fileviewer at www.fileviewer.com
It also recognises XMIT format and will even work with XMIT within XMIT.
I bought a license about 8 years back for very little.

Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Bob Bridges
Sent: 15 August 2023 21:55
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

I use MS Office Pro Plus, but it's still 2019.  No plans to upgrade until I
must; often when I "upgrade" I find the new product doesn't do something I
wanted to continue doing.

For example, some years ago I set out to find a text editor that had a
hex-display feature.  I settled on Notepad++, and it was fine.  But one day
it offered an upgrade, and I accepted without fear.  Turns out, though,
they'd discontinued the hex feature.  Does anyone have a suggestion for a
replacement, by the way?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is amazing how reading the whole Bible can affect some eschatology.
-Rick Joyner, October 2018. */


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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-18 Thread Grant Taylor


On 8/18/23 9:57 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Understood, but vi and emacs are still on my list of software to learn.


It's been a LONG time since I've gone through it, but I can say that 
vimtutor (command) worked well for me back in the day.


I've had fun playing VIM Adventures (https://vim-adventures.com/) to 
refresh basics and learn more advanced things.  --  I think one of the 
things that VIM Adventures teaches is think about what you want to do 
and how to direct VIM to do it in the fewest keystrokes possible. 
Mostly because of things like . (dot) repeatability, macros, and the likes.


I've found Practical Vim and Vim Casts from Drew Neil and -- I think -- 
his Vim Casts to be worth watching.


I don't remember the last time I launched emacs.  I chose vi(m) more 
than 20 years ago because it started multiple times faster than emacs on 
the same system.  I go into and out of editors and live on the command 
line.  I don't boot an editor and live therein.



I found multiple views of the same file to be quite useful in XEDIT.


Yep.  I'll do similar in vim.

N.B. when I said multiple cursors, I was thinking multiple people on 
different systems editing different parts of the file.  I'm sure there 
are legitimate use cases for that, just not in the text files that I'm 
editing.


Take away CPAN and I would have abandoned Perl years ago. Libraries 
like CTAN are too useful to ignore. I regard them as part of the 
ecosystem.


ACK

Take emacs. There's a plethora of stuff that has grown up around it, 
and that makes it more useful than it would have been in isolation.


Yep.



Grant. . . .

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-18 Thread Seymour J Metz

> But I'll counter with, why should people need to learn -- what I'll
> politely call -- a non-intuitive editor to do occasional simple edits 
> of text files?

Understood, but vi and emacs are still on my list of software to learn.

> I'm not a fan of multiple cursors / editors in the same file.

I found multiple views of the same file to be quite useful in XEDIT.

> Take those plugins away and these same users will scoff at the 
> base unextended editor.

Take away CPAN and I would have abandoned Perl years ago. Libraries like CTAN 
are too useful to ignore. I regard them as part of the ecosystem.

Take emacs. There's a plethora of stuff that has grown up around it, and that 
makes it more useful than it would have been in isolation.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Grant Taylor [023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2023 10:42 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

On 8/17/23 6:28 AM, David Crayford wrote:

--
Grant. . . .

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-18 Thread Grant Taylor


On 8/17/23 6:28 AM, David Crayford wrote:
This joke never fails to amuse me: 
https://jokejet.com/lady-gaga-tries-to-exit-vim/.


I'm as tired of exit vi jokes as I am people acting as if the mainframe 
doesn't include contemporary technology.



Is there anyone left who still uses vi?


I use a mixture of vim, vi, and ed.  Probably each to a lesser order of 
magnitude to the previous.


I have a system that I periodically edit config files on that has -- 
what I consider to be -- a bad vim profile wherein frequently, but not 
always, it will replace the first character on the line with a lower 
case g.  So I use vi rather than spending time trying to figure out why 
this is.  The powers that be keep saying that this system is going away 
any day now.


Vim has practically become the standard on most systems, and NeoVim 
is following suit with Vim. When I hear someone griping about Vim's 
lack of intuitiveness or labeling it the "editor from hell," I quickly 
realize that they probably haven't put in the effort to truly learn how 
to harness Vim's capabilities.


I agree.

But I'll counter with, why should people need to learn -- what I'll 
politely call -- a non-intuitive editor to do occasional simple edits of 
text files?


This is a case of where discoverability comes into play.  Can a user put 
in front of it discover on their own how to do what they want to do?  Or 
do they need to be taught how to do it?


The ed, ex, vi, vim, etc. all fail at discoverability.  But that's okay. 
 Discoverability is not their domain of expertise.  Their domain of 
expertise is doing things with text that a less complex editor couldn't 
fathom doing.


I think the same ding also applies to emacs.  Though emacs at least puts 
a little bit more direction on screen as hints of what to do.


It's likely that they gave it a shot, grappled with its unique modes, 
may have even struggled to exit the application, and as a result, 
developed a negative impression that has persisted since that 
initial unpleasing encounter.


I think the same thing could be said about MS-DOS's edlin.

Vim's learning curve is steep, but the benefits are significant for 
those in search of a lightweight editor that's arguably more powerful 
than even the most intricate GUI applications. Moreover, it performs 
efficiently even on resource-constrained setups.


I agree.

Occasionally, I still turn to ISPF for editing JCL or REXX programs that 
reside in PDS datasets. In a recent WebEx session with my millennial 
teammates, I was demonstrating some new JCL. While performing a 
multi-line edit involving COPY/OVERLAY after column adjustments, they 
playfully laughed and teased me. Phrases like "Is ISPF your IDE?", "Does 
ISPF support multiple cursors?" and "Why not use Vim?" were thrown my 
way. I clarified that Vim can't manage MVS datasets, although the DSFS 
might eventually address that limitation. I then proceeded to showcase 
the usage of SRCHFOR from a member list. However, their response wasn't 
as impressed as it was with vimgrep, NerdTree, Telescope and the 
numerous plugins that operate seamlessly on z/OS ports of Vim.


I'm not a fan of multiple cursors / editors in the same file.

It's worth mentioning that young developers are actively embracing Vim, 
not just the seasoned Unix programmers. It has emerged as one of the 
preferred editors for full stack web development. Take a look at the 
videos and commit history for NeoVim, and you'll be amazed by the 
dominance of a TUI (Text User Interface) editor in a rapidly evolving 
tech landscape.


I've been seeing that trend for many years.  Though most of what I see 
is that most of the time these users have many plugins that 
significantly alter the behavior of the system.


Take those plugins away and these same users will scoff at the base 
unextended editor.


Now, let's delve into Git integration. We're all on the Git bandwagon, 
right? There are plugins available that empower me to delve into the Git 
history of files, providing inline annotations to pinpoint which 
developer modified a specific line of code in which commit and when!


Yep.

Now do those same things without the integration into $EDITOR.

Of course, it's all a matter of perspective, and to a young individual 
entering the realm of z/OS, ISPF might very well seem like the "editor 
from hell."


Perspective, discoverability, task at hand, terminal capability all help 
influence what editor is used at a given time.




--
Grant. . . .

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-17 Thread David Crayford

> On 17 Aug 2023, at 9:27 pm, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hi David,
> I learned VIM because my job was expanded to add responsibility for Linux and 
> AIX software installation and maintenance.
> (I am no expert, but), ISPF Edit has the ability to do an an intelligent 
> change where changing A to AB (or vice versa) it tries to keep the rest of 
> the line the way it was.
> I have not seen this ability in another editor.

You will have to supply more context because I haven’t used ISPF as my primary 
editor for 20 years and I haven’t experienced that problem with Slickedit, 
IntelliJ, Vim etc. 

> As well, no other editor can limit the search by columns in the change 
> command. (I know that XEDIT can do it by issuing a command to do this before 
> issuing the change command.)

That’s simple using a regular expression

> 
> Regards,
> David
> 
> On 2023-08-17 07:28, David Crayford wrote:
>> On 17/8/2023 5:41 am, Phil Smith III wrote:
>>> Bob Bridges wrote, in part:
 I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer
 code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor
 that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything.
>>> As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best 
>>> description of vi I've ever heard is:
>>> "vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps 
>>> at you."
>> This joke never fails to amuse me: 
>> https://jokejet.com/lady-gaga-tries-to-exit-vim/.
>> 
>> Is there anyone left who still uses vi? Vim has practically become the 
>> standard on most systems, and NeoVim is following suit with Vim. When I hear 
>> someone griping about Vim's lack of intuitiveness or labeling it the "editor 
>> from hell," I quickly realize that they probably haven't put in the effort 
>> to truly learn how to harness Vim's capabilities. It's likely that they gave 
>> it a shot, grappled with its unique modes, may have even struggled to exit 
>> the application, and as a result, developed a negative impression that has 
>> persisted since that initial unpleasing encounter. Vim's learning curve is 
>> steep, but the benefits are significant for those in search of a lightweight 
>> editor that's arguably more powerful than even the most intricate GUI 
>> applications. Moreover, it performs efficiently even on resource-constrained 
>> setups.
>> 
>> Occasionally, I still turn to ISPF for editing JCL or REXX programs that 
>> reside in PDS datasets. In a recent WebEx session with my millennial 
>> teammates, I was demonstrating some new JCL. While performing a multi-line 
>> edit involving COPY/OVERLAY after column adjustments, they playfully laughed 
>> and teased me. Phrases like "Is ISPF your IDE?", "Does ISPF support multiple 
>> cursors?" and "Why not use Vim?" were thrown my way. I clarified that Vim 
>> can't manage MVS datasets, although the DSFS might eventually address that 
>> limitation. I then proceeded to showcase the usage of SRCHFOR from a member 
>> list. However, their response wasn't as impressed as it was with vimgrep, 
>> NerdTree, Telescope and the numerous plugins that operate seamlessly on z/OS 
>> ports of Vim.
>> 
>> It's worth mentioning that young developers are actively embracing Vim, not 
>> just the seasoned Unix programmers. It has emerged as one of the preferred 
>> editors for full stack web development. Take a look at the videos and commit 
>> history for NeoVim, and you'll be amazed by the dominance of a TUI (Text 
>> User Interface) editor in a rapidly evolving tech landscape.
>> 
>> Now, let's delve into Git integration. We're all on the Git bandwagon, 
>> right? There are plugins available that empower me to delve into the Git 
>> history of files, providing inline annotations to pinpoint which developer 
>> modified a specific line of code in which commit and when!
>> 
>> https://github.com/lewis6991/gitsigns.nvim. 
>> 
>> Of course, it's all a matter of perspective, and to a young individual 
>> entering the realm of z/OS, ISPF might very well seem like the "editor from 
>> hell."
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-17 Thread David Crayford


On 17/8/2023 8:26 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:

What is the usage of gvim, and is there a z/OS port?


Gvim, being a GUI, offers menus and the ability to share the clipboard 
with the OS. However, it seems that most users are drawn to the terminal 
environment, which might be why Gvim's popularity is diminishing. Also, 
clipboard integration has been implemented in plugins for the last 
decade. As for a z/OS port, that would necessitate x11, which isn't 
exactly tailored to the purpose.


Interestingly, the Stack Overflow IDE 2023 survey highlights a 
distinction between Vim and Neovim as separate editors, despite Neovim 
being a fork of Vim. When you combine the percentages of both, it 
becomes apparent just how popular Vim remains.


[1] Link: 
https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#section-most-popular-technologies-integrated-development-environment


In Vim, macros are implemented as a recording and playback feature. You 
have the ability to write Vimscript to customize the editor's behavior. 
In contrast, NeoVim leverages Lua scripting for both configuration and 
scripting purposes, even employing a vimscript to Lua transpiler for 
optimization.


The NeoVim community is comprised of a group of exceptionally skilled 
and innovative young hackers. They have taken the foundation of Vim, 
forked it, and transformed it into a fully-fledged integrated 
development environment (IDE) equipped with an array of features 
including language servers, an asynchronous event loop, and the powerful 
scripting capabilities of Lua. This evolution is in line with the 
changing landscape of development environments, which now often involve 
containerized images.


The versatility of NeoVim allows for convenient home directory network 
mounts that facilitate the sharing of NeoVim configurations within Linux 
containers. This ease of integration contrasts with the challenges 
presented by running resource-intensive GUIs like Visual Studio Code or 
IntelliJ backends within those same containers.


[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stqUbv-5u2s



As for git, I'm still getting my toes wet, but it's an obvious tool to look at.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 7:28 AM
To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

On 17/8/2023 5:41 am, Phil Smith III wrote:

Bob Bridges wrote, in part:

I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer
code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor
that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything.

As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best 
description of vi I've ever heard is:
"vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps at 
you."

This joke never fails to amuse me:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1aZPo01EgQ3QxNnPL6W90Hfy-95T5h8aBn8af37iNbonpe5eONqX1rzUM1dsyG2JjYhgGJUdcu2dTRnJ1yhCN76rB9b1hzvE-WX2XbWVGiznJ0TGg-lKH0IoxoebVxJ6eq8zEd179CBZl418aJGejNgxeVwFjdxvb0QpWFl9LHt6FTPxkQ3cBm10CuyQm98j2LteyMseral78RWJMBLHIpst7yl2qUZAVpoyN7_T5TtG7mm-1pEVSGiHOlbkXzSzTpZh7itIoxNXsRJ4kvjeyxGzvagG5NR7s8lSe4-oSBIknJHKO6zHHc3vS2OaK5mXj-_x4GqOYfeN86oLwMhGsMR03bCi-MuSUXiXLg9iJRocfMSIjA6PRe3dYR8d8nzKn0o8E46RKnjXlBaOXjNZ0ngT4TZjyXmj-XthbA-xsSoYRoHxq0_WCYE7eCRY_fdvF/https%3A%2F%2Fjokejet.com%2Flady-gaga-tries-to-exit-vim%2F

Is there anyone left who still uses vi? Vim has practically become the
standard on most systems, and NeoVim is following suit with Vim. When I
hear someone griping about Vim's lack of intuitiveness or labeling it
the "editor from hell," I quickly realize that they probably haven't put
in the effort to truly learn how to harness Vim's capabilities. It's
likely that they gave it a shot, grappled with its unique modes, may
have even struggled to exit the application, and as a result, developed
a negative impression that has persisted since that initial unpleasing
encounter. Vim's learning curve is steep, but the benefits are
significant for those in search of a lightweight editor that's arguably
more powerful than even the most intricate GUI applications. Moreover,
it performs efficiently even on resource-constrained setups.

Occasionally, I still turn to ISPF for editing JCL or REXX programs that
reside in PDS datasets. In a recent WebEx session with my millennial
teammates, I was demonstrating some new JCL. While performing a
multi-line edit involving COPY/OVERLAY after column adjustments, they
playfully laughed and teased me. Phrases like "Is ISPF your IDE?", "Does
ISPF support multiple cursors?" and "Why not use Vim?" were thrown my
way. I clarified that Vim can't manage MVS datasets, although the DSFS
might eventually address that limitation. I then proceeded to showcase
the usage of SRCHFOR from a member

Re: Has anyone

2023-08-17 Thread David Spiegel


Hi David,
I learned VIM because my job was expanded to add responsibility for 
Linux and AIX software installation and maintenance.
(I am no expert, but), ISPF Edit has the ability to do an an intelligent 
change where changing A to AB (or vice versa) it tries to keep the rest 
of the line the way it was.

I have not seen this ability in another editor.
As well, no other editor can limit the search by columns in the change 
command. (I know that XEDIT can do it by issuing a command to do this 
before issuing the change command.)


Regards,
David

On 2023-08-17 07:28, David Crayford wrote:

On 17/8/2023 5:41 am, Phil Smith III wrote:

Bob Bridges wrote, in part:

I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer
code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor
that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything.
As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The 
best description of vi I've ever heard is:
"vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it 
beeps at you."
This joke never fails to amuse me: 
https://jokejet.com/lady-gaga-tries-to-exit-vim/.


Is there anyone left who still uses vi? Vim has practically become the 
standard on most systems, and NeoVim is following suit with Vim. When 
I hear someone griping about Vim's lack of intuitiveness or labeling 
it the "editor from hell," I quickly realize that they probably 
haven't put in the effort to truly learn how to harness Vim's 
capabilities. It's likely that they gave it a shot, grappled with its 
unique modes, may have even struggled to exit the application, and as 
a result, developed a negative impression that has persisted since 
that initial unpleasing encounter. Vim's learning curve is steep, but 
the benefits are significant for those in search of a lightweight 
editor that's arguably more powerful than even the most intricate GUI 
applications. Moreover, it performs efficiently even on 
resource-constrained setups.


Occasionally, I still turn to ISPF for editing JCL or REXX programs 
that reside in PDS datasets. In a recent WebEx session with my 
millennial teammates, I was demonstrating some new JCL. While 
performing a multi-line edit involving COPY/OVERLAY after column 
adjustments, they playfully laughed and teased me. Phrases like "Is 
ISPF your IDE?", "Does ISPF support multiple cursors?" and "Why not 
use Vim?" were thrown my way. I clarified that Vim can't manage MVS 
datasets, although the DSFS might eventually address that limitation. 
I then proceeded to showcase the usage of SRCHFOR from a member list. 
However, their response wasn't as impressed as it was with vimgrep, 
NerdTree, Telescope and the numerous plugins that operate seamlessly 
on z/OS ports of Vim.


It's worth mentioning that young developers are actively embracing 
Vim, not just the seasoned Unix programmers. It has emerged as one of 
the preferred editors for full stack web development. Take a look at 
the videos and commit history for NeoVim, and you'll be amazed by the 
dominance of a TUI (Text User Interface) editor in a rapidly evolving 
tech landscape.


Now, let's delve into Git integration. We're all on the Git bandwagon, 
right? There are plugins available that empower me to delve into the 
Git history of files, providing inline annotations to pinpoint which 
developer modified a specific line of code in which commit and when!


https://github.com/lewis6991/gitsigns.nvim. 



Of course, it's all a matter of perspective, and to a young individual 
entering the realm of z/OS, ISPF might very well seem like the "editor 
from hell."






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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-17 Thread Seymour J Metz

What is the usage of gvim, and is there a z/OS port?

I tend to write edit macros freely, and want an editor with a powerful and 
readable macro language. Were I to switch from TSPF, I'd be more likely to go 
to emacs () ;-) or THE than to gvim.

As for git, I'm still getting my toes wet, but it's an obvious tool to look at.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 7:28 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

On 17/8/2023 5:41 am, Phil Smith III wrote:
> Bob Bridges wrote, in part:
>> I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer
>> code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor
>> that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything.
> As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best 
> description of vi I've ever heard is:
> "vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps at 
> you."
This joke never fails to amuse me:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1aZPo01EgQ3QxNnPL6W90Hfy-95T5h8aBn8af37iNbonpe5eONqX1rzUM1dsyG2JjYhgGJUdcu2dTRnJ1yhCN76rB9b1hzvE-WX2XbWVGiznJ0TGg-lKH0IoxoebVxJ6eq8zEd179CBZl418aJGejNgxeVwFjdxvb0QpWFl9LHt6FTPxkQ3cBm10CuyQm98j2LteyMseral78RWJMBLHIpst7yl2qUZAVpoyN7_T5TtG7mm-1pEVSGiHOlbkXzSzTpZh7itIoxNXsRJ4kvjeyxGzvagG5NR7s8lSe4-oSBIknJHKO6zHHc3vS2OaK5mXj-_x4GqOYfeN86oLwMhGsMR03bCi-MuSUXiXLg9iJRocfMSIjA6PRe3dYR8d8nzKn0o8E46RKnjXlBaOXjNZ0ngT4TZjyXmj-XthbA-xsSoYRoHxq0_WCYE7eCRY_fdvF/https%3A%2F%2Fjokejet.com%2Flady-gaga-tries-to-exit-vim%2F

Is there anyone left who still uses vi? Vim has practically become the
standard on most systems, and NeoVim is following suit with Vim. When I
hear someone griping about Vim's lack of intuitiveness or labeling it
the "editor from hell," I quickly realize that they probably haven't put
in the effort to truly learn how to harness Vim's capabilities. It's
likely that they gave it a shot, grappled with its unique modes, may
have even struggled to exit the application, and as a result, developed
a negative impression that has persisted since that initial unpleasing
encounter. Vim's learning curve is steep, but the benefits are
significant for those in search of a lightweight editor that's arguably
more powerful than even the most intricate GUI applications. Moreover,
it performs efficiently even on resource-constrained setups.

Occasionally, I still turn to ISPF for editing JCL or REXX programs that
reside in PDS datasets. In a recent WebEx session with my millennial
teammates, I was demonstrating some new JCL. While performing a
multi-line edit involving COPY/OVERLAY after column adjustments, they
playfully laughed and teased me. Phrases like "Is ISPF your IDE?", "Does
ISPF support multiple cursors?" and "Why not use Vim?" were thrown my
way. I clarified that Vim can't manage MVS datasets, although the DSFS
might eventually address that limitation. I then proceeded to showcase
the usage of SRCHFOR from a member list. However, their response wasn't
as impressed as it was with vimgrep, NerdTree, Telescope and the
numerous plugins that operate seamlessly on z/OS ports of Vim.

It's worth mentioning that young developers are actively embracing Vim,
not just the seasoned Unix programmers. It has emerged as one of the
preferred editors for full stack web development. Take a look at the
videos and commit history for NeoVim, and you'll be amazed by the
dominance of a TUI (Text User Interface) editor in a rapidly evolving
tech landscape.

Now, let's delve into Git integration. We're all on the Git bandwagon,
right? There are plugins available that empower me to delve into the Git
history of files, providing inline annotations to pinpoint which
developer modified a specific line of code in which commit and when!

https://github.com/lewis6991/gitsigns.nvim.

Of course, it's all a matter of perspective, and to a young individual
entering the realm of z/OS, ISPF might very well seem like the "editor
from hell."

>
>
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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-17 Thread Matt Hogstrom

Sounds like emacs   Once opened I couldnt wait to get out

Matt Hogstrom
PGP key 0F143BC1

> On Aug 16, 2023, at 17:42, Phil Smith III  wrote:
> 
>> I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer
>> code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor
>> that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything.

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-17 Thread David Crayford


On 17/8/2023 5:41 am, Phil Smith III wrote:

Bob Bridges wrote, in part:

I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer
code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor
that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything.

As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best 
description of vi I've ever heard is:
"vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps at 
you."
This joke never fails to amuse me: 
https://jokejet.com/lady-gaga-tries-to-exit-vim/.


Is there anyone left who still uses vi? Vim has practically become the 
standard on most systems, and NeoVim is following suit with Vim. When I 
hear someone griping about Vim's lack of intuitiveness or labeling it 
the "editor from hell," I quickly realize that they probably haven't put 
in the effort to truly learn how to harness Vim's capabilities. It's 
likely that they gave it a shot, grappled with its unique modes, may 
have even struggled to exit the application, and as a result, developed 
a negative impression that has persisted since that initial unpleasing 
encounter. Vim's learning curve is steep, but the benefits are 
significant for those in search of a lightweight editor that's arguably 
more powerful than even the most intricate GUI applications. Moreover, 
it performs efficiently even on resource-constrained setups.


Occasionally, I still turn to ISPF for editing JCL or REXX programs that 
reside in PDS datasets. In a recent WebEx session with my millennial 
teammates, I was demonstrating some new JCL. While performing a 
multi-line edit involving COPY/OVERLAY after column adjustments, they 
playfully laughed and teased me. Phrases like "Is ISPF your IDE?", "Does 
ISPF support multiple cursors?" and "Why not use Vim?" were thrown my 
way. I clarified that Vim can't manage MVS datasets, although the DSFS 
might eventually address that limitation. I then proceeded to showcase 
the usage of SRCHFOR from a member list. However, their response wasn't 
as impressed as it was with vimgrep, NerdTree, Telescope and the 
numerous plugins that operate seamlessly on z/OS ports of Vim.


It's worth mentioning that young developers are actively embracing Vim, 
not just the seasoned Unix programmers. It has emerged as one of the 
preferred editors for full stack web development. Take a look at the 
videos and commit history for NeoVim, and you'll be amazed by the 
dominance of a TUI (Text User Interface) editor in a rapidly evolving 
tech landscape.


Now, let's delve into Git integration. We're all on the Git bandwagon, 
right? There are plugins available that empower me to delve into the Git 
history of files, providing inline annotations to pinpoint which 
developer modified a specific line of code in which commit and when!


https://github.com/lewis6991/gitsigns.nvim.

Of course, it's all a matter of perspective, and to a young individual 
entering the realm of z/OS, ISPF might very well seem like the "editor 
from hell."






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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-16 Thread Grant Taylor


On 8/16/2023 5:41 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:
As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The 
best description of vi I've ever heard is:>
"vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it 
beeps at you."


Chuckle.

That's good.

But there are more modes.  I just can't come up with any comparably 
witty descriptions.


On 8/16/23 5:27 PM, Steve Thompson wrote:

++1

I have a cert for being able to use vi from the U of Akron.. I can start 
it and kill it. Apparently that qualifies as being able to use it.


I used the following today:

:0,/^$/s/\s\+/\t/

It saved me a lot of time working on / analyzing an email.

If there's interest, I'll expand it for people.



Grant. . . .

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-16 Thread Steve Thompson


On 8/16/2023 5:41 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:
As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its 
relatives. The best description of vi I've ever heard is:

"vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps at 
you."

++1

I have a cert for being able to use vi from the U of Akron.. I 
can start it and kill it. Apparently that qualifies as being able 
to use it.


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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-16 Thread Phil Smith III

Bob Bridges wrote, in part:
>I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer
>code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor
>that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything.

As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best 
description of vi I've ever heard is:
"vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps at 
you."


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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-16 Thread Bob Bridges

I've occasionally thought of writing a TECO-like editor for myself.  But what 
with ISPF Edit macros, and ooRexx, and like that, I guess there isn't really 
much point, is there?  Unless it's just for fun...

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Of a proposed course of action [God] wants men, so far as I can see, to ask 
very simple questions:  Is it righteous?  Is it prudent?  Is it possible?  Now, 
if we can keep men asking "Is it in accordance with the general movement of our 
time?  Is it progressive or reactionary?  Is this the way that History is 
going?", they will neglect the relevant questions.  -advice to a tempter, from 
The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 12:20

I agree.  Iused TECO on Decsystem-10 and PDP-8.  I was irritated when I got a 
mainframe job that required that I learn ROSCOE.
"But it's a full screen editor!"
"So what!?"

I suspect the other party's point of reference was TSO EDIT, not even 
full-duplex communication!  An editor should have closer communication with the 
user than a programming language paradigm allows.

--- On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 11:23:33 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:
TECO (anyone ever use that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP 
platform as I recall - with early automation features that I used extensively, 
and it was full of odd uses for  and '$' and some other characters, but it 
did a good job - once I was used to it.

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-16 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 11:23:33 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:

>...; TECO (anyone ever use
>that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall - with
>early automation features that I used extensively, and it was full of odd
>uses for  and '$' and some other characters, but it did a good job -
>once I was used to it.  
>
I agree.  Iused TECO on Decsystem-10 and PDP-8.  I was irritated
when I got a mainframe job that required that I learn ROSCOE.
"But it's a full screen editor!"
"So what!?"

I suspect the other party's point of reference was TSO EDIT,
not even full-duplex communication!  An editor should have
closer communication with the user than a programming language
paradigm allows.

>But whatever this Unix editor was, a half hour
>wasn't enough for me to learn much about it or get used to anything.
>
Even though I don't use it much, I've advocated for Jedit.  Java,
therefore portable.  Has anyone installed it on a z?

-- 
gil

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-16 Thread Bob Bridges

Too many years ago; I don't remember.  And it isn't as if "unintuitive" is a
fatal error in editors or any other application; TECO (anyone ever use
that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall - with
early automation features that I used extensively, and it was full of odd
uses for  and '$' and some other characters, but it did a good job -
once I was used to it.  But whatever this Unix editor was, a half hour
wasn't enough for me to learn much about it or get used to anything.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* People who can't distinguish between "etymology" and "entomology" bug me
in ways I cannot put into words.  -Tal Waterhouse */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 10:26

The Golden Rule: he who has the gold makes the rule. But I don't use it when
it's not mandatory.

Would that be vi, AKA the editor from Hell? It has the advantage that if you
have to use a random *ix system, there will almost certainly be some version
available. If not vi, was it emacs?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 9:58 AM

I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer code a
program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor that was so
unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything.  I wouldn't mind getting
used to it - I'm not tired of learning yet - but life is short and I seem to
be picking up other new skills instead, at least for now.

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-16 Thread Kirk Wolf

It really depends on your requirements, but for many years we have used a 
Docbook based approach for our technical documentation, which allows us to 
easily generate  HTML, PDF, and man page versions of our documentation.   It's 
a bit of work getting the XSL styles tweaked to your liking, but after that it 
is quite nice.   

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
See:   https://coztoolkit.com/docs/coz/coz_index.html

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, at 4:02 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> I've ranted on this before so I'll make it short:  I finally, maybe a year 
> ago, got tired of trying to write serious documentation in Word.  I asked you 
> folks and those at another listserv about markup languages, and then took a 
> week off to learn to use LaTeX.  I'm ~much~ happier with that.
> 
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> 
> /* In order to write for "The A-Team", you'd have to be a much better writer 
> than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations 
> — forget about shows like "Hill Street Blues" or "The Muppet Show", where 
> writing REALLY counts.  -Linda Ellerbee in _And So It Goes_ */
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 13:47
> 
> Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office products do (Word, & XL 
> are what I use). Word is better at formatting documents than is Libre office 
> in my experience. And XL has more features than Libre.
> 
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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-16 Thread Seymour J Metz

The Golden Rule: he who has the gold makes the rule. But I don't use it when 
it's not mandatory.

Would that be vi, AKA the editor from Hell? It has the advantage that if you 
have to use a random *ix system, there will almost certainly be some version 
available. If not vi, was it emacs?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 9:58 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

Fair point, but my clients hire me as a mainframe geek.  I do know other 
things, but most of my income is from mainframe security, with occasional 
forays into coding for MS Office.  So from my point of view, "the real thing" 
is MS Office.  My oldest daughter is a Linux fan; I've never used it.

I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer code a 
program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor that was so 
unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything.  I wouldn't mind getting used 
to it - I'm not tired of learning yet - but life is short and I seem to be 
picking up other new skills instead, at least for now.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A demonstration that rich felons go unhung is not an argument for freeing 
poor felons, but for redoubling efforts against rich felons.  -William F 
Buckley, _Four Reforms_ (1973) */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 22:03

"Real thing" depends on point of view.  What if your client is Linux-centric?

--- On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:58:27 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:
>...  My little sister reminds me from time to time that OpenOffice is just 
> as good, but I don't want to write something for a client and then find out 
> that it isn't QUITE the same as the real thing.

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-16 Thread Bob Bridges

Fair point, but my clients hire me as a mainframe geek.  I do know other 
things, but most of my income is from mainframe security, with occasional 
forays into coding for MS Office.  So from my point of view, "the real thing" 
is MS Office.  My oldest daughter is a Linux fan; I've never used it.

I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer code a 
program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor that was so 
unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything.  I wouldn't mind getting used 
to it - I'm not tired of learning yet - but life is short and I seem to be 
picking up other new skills instead, at least for now.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A demonstration that rich felons go unhung is not an argument for freeing 
poor felons, but for redoubling efforts against rich felons.  -William F 
Buckley, _Four Reforms_ (1973) */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 22:03

"Real thing" depends on point of view.  What if your client is Linux-centric?

--- On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:58:27 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:
>...  My little sister reminds me from time to time that OpenOffice is just 
> as good, but I don't want to write something for a client and then find out 
> that it isn't QUITE the same as the real thing.

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-16 Thread Seymour J Metz

If I can't have BookMaster or BookManager Build, LaTeX is a good choice, 
especially with expl3. There is a massive library of packages at Comprehensive 
TeX Archive Network (CTAN) <https://ctan.org/>.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 5:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

I've ranted on this before so I'll make it short:  I finally, maybe a year ago, 
got tired of trying to write serious documentation in Word.  I asked you folks 
and those at another listserv about markup languages, and then took a week off 
to learn to use LaTeX.  I'm ~much~ happier with that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* In order to write for "The A-Team", you'd have to be a much better writer 
than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations — 
forget about shows like "Hill Street Blues" or "The Muppet Show", where writing 
REALLY counts.  -Linda Ellerbee in _And So It Goes_ */



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 13:47

Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office products do (Word, & XL are 
what I use). Word is better at formatting documents than is Libre office in my 
experience. And XL has more features than Libre.

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Steve Thompson


Find me one in the USofA that is Linux centric.

I went to Linux desktops about 2002 because M/S was not going to 
put USB drivers into NT 4.0 at midlife.  Suse Linux 7 something 
in a box did not install very well. So I went off to Lindows. 
Then Linspire and finally back to Suse Linux.  I wanted to go off 
to OS/2, but IBM had some issue where you needed their BIOS so I 
was unable to get the Red or Blue version of OS/2 to install on 
any system I built. I just didn't have the money for a PS2 system 
to make OS/2 happy.


I have gotten nothing but grief from family because M/S Office 
does this, and Word does that. Open Office became Libre Office


So having used Wordstar, Wordstar 2000 (what a disaster), Word, 
Word Perfect, etc. I kind of know their differences.


Today, I prefer Libre Office and FF with Thunderbird as opposed 
to M/S products that all want me to use their cloud so that I am 
beholding to them.


And when V-Box and Suse are being nice to/with each other, I run 
W7 or whatever under Linux.


But no customer that I've had uses Linux for their office 
systems. It is all Outlook and M/S Office.


Oh and now my children are glad I introduced them to Linux desk 
tops because they can work on almost any system. Oh and they 
complained about being taught to drive a stick too. Until they 
needed that skill one day


Steve Thompson


On 8/15/2023 10:03 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:58:27 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:

...  My little sister reminds me from time to time that OpenOffice is just 
as good, but I don't want to write something for a client and then find out 
that it isn't QUITE the same as the real thing.


"Real thing" depends on point of view.  What if your client is Linux-centric?



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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:58:27 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:
> 
>...  My little sister reminds me from time to time that OpenOffice is just 
> as good, but I don't want to write something for a client and then find out 
> that it isn't QUITE the same as the real thing.
>
"Real thing" depends on point of view.  What if your client is Linux-centric?

-- 
gil

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Wayne Bickerdike

I use both Libre Office and Ashampoo office. The Ashampoo products are like
MS-Office used to be. Not overloaded with features I don't need and each
component offers compatible file formats with MS-Office. Costs about $20. I
have a number of other Ashampoo products for disk backup, video editing,
audio editing and photo processing.

There is a free version for their Office suite too.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 5:46 AM Charles Mills  wrote:

> I use it. I have nothing to really compare it to, but it does the job for
> me. Supports EBCDIC.
>
> Charles
>
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 22:16:16 +, Pommier, Rex 
> wrote:
>
> >I highly recommend "HxD hex edit".
>
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Charles Mills

I use it. I have nothing to really compare it to, but it does the job for me. 
Supports EBCDIC.

Charles

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 22:16:16 +, Pommier, Rex  
wrote:

>I highly recommend "HxD hex edit".

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Pommier, Rex

I highly recommend "HxD hex edit".

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 4:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone

For a HEX viewr, try the V fileviewer at 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.fileviewer.com__;!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!v5eXBmYcxxvXzFMv9qPTYvGHG1T8CpbwNOSdjb9rP7YSJyy5HZXFMw7jmOS_OWfq7pas02f-uMf_iO-Lzyt_nTK3Yk3bwUpoZ3QD$
It also recognises XMIT format and will even work with XMIT within XMIT.
I bought a license about 8 years back for very little. 

Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: 15 August 2023 21:55
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

I use MS Office Pro Plus, but it's still 2019.  No plans to upgrade until I 
must; often when I "upgrade" I find the new product doesn't do something I 
wanted to continue doing.

For example, some years ago I set out to find a text editor that had a 
hex-display feature.  I settled on Notepad++, and it was fine.  But one day it 
offered an upgrade, and I accepted without fear.  Turns out, though, they'd 
discontinued the hex feature.  Does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement, 
by the way?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is amazing how reading the whole Bible can affect some eschatology.
-Rick Joyner, October 2018. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19

Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus+

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw

For a HEX viewr, try the V fileviewer at www.fileviewer.com
It also recognises XMIT format and will even work with XMIT within XMIT.
I bought a license about 8 years back for very little. 

Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Bob Bridges
Sent: 15 August 2023 21:55
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

I use MS Office Pro Plus, but it's still 2019.  No plans to upgrade until I
must; often when I "upgrade" I find the new product doesn't do something I
wanted to continue doing.

For example, some years ago I set out to find a text editor that had a
hex-display feature.  I settled on Notepad++, and it was fine.  But one day
it offered an upgrade, and I accepted without fear.  Turns out, though,
they'd discontinued the hex feature.  Does anyone have a suggestion for a
replacement, by the way?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is amazing how reading the whole Bible can affect some eschatology.
-Rick Joyner, October 2018. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19

Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus+

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Bob Bridges

I've ranted on this before so I'll make it short:  I finally, maybe a year ago, 
got tired of trying to write serious documentation in Word.  I asked you folks 
and those at another listserv about markup languages, and then took a week off 
to learn to use LaTeX.  I'm ~much~ happier with that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* In order to write for "The A-Team", you'd have to be a much better writer 
than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations — 
forget about shows like "Hill Street Blues" or "The Muppet Show", where writing 
REALLY counts.  -Linda Ellerbee in _And So It Goes_ */



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 13:47

Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office products do (Word, & XL are 
what I use). Word is better at formatting documents than is Libre office in my 
experience. And XL has more features than Libre.

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Bob Bridges

I have Pro-Plus too, and I'm definitely an individual contractor.  

And yes, I too fork over the money for it, whenever I get a new PC, because it 
has Access.  My little sister reminds me from time to time that OpenOffice is 
just as good, but I don't want to write something for a client and then find 
out that it isn't QUITE the same as the real thing.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Being a programmer is one thing above all else: It is understanding how 
things work. -from the introduction to "Assembly Language Step-by-Step" (2nd 
edition) by Jeff Nuntemann */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Farley, Peter
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:33

I’ve had Office 365 for years now, I find it useful to keep paying the yearly 
fee because they upgrade the individual components without me needing to 
concern myself with which version is current today and I can share it with my 
family for no extra charge.

In prior times when I consulted for a living I did always buy the 
“Professional” version because it included  Access.

A little time spent with Mr. Google says that the “Plus” version may be for 
“business volume purchases only”, not for individual purchase, but I may be 
mis-interpreting what I read.

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Bob Bridges

I use MS Office Pro Plus, but it's still 2019.  No plans to upgrade until I
must; often when I "upgrade" I find the new product doesn't do something I
wanted to continue doing.

For example, some years ago I set out to find a text editor that had a
hex-display feature.  I settled on Notepad++, and it was fine.  But one day
it offered an upgrade, and I accepted without fear.  Turns out, though,
they'd discontinued the hex feature.  Does anyone have a suggestion for a
replacement, by the way?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is amazing how reading the whole Bible can affect some eschatology.
-Rick Joyner, October 2018. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19

Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus+

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Steve Beaver

Guys and gals.  Than you for all your input

Steve Beaver

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Steve Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 12:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

I have both M/S office products and Libre Office on W10 & W11 
laptops. The reason for that is, clients are tied to M/S so I 
have to use Office 365 for interfacing with them. I use Libre 
office when I do not want M/S to use One Drive, or otherwise 
don't need M/S software (We have our own file server which we use 
in-house).

So beware. If you turn off One Drive, M/S Office products will 
not autosave (in my experience with W10 or W11). They will not 
recover if M/S decides you need to reboot to finish updates.

Try to get M/S Support to see/recognize this as a problem. One 
Drive is common to M/S office apps and I think the bug is in One 
Drive. It wants to write to local disk, and then send your data 
into the M/S cloud.

But back to Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office 
products do (Word, & XL are what I use). Word is better at 
formatting documents than is Libre office in my experience. And 
XL has more features than Libre.

Steve Thompson

On 8/15/2023 1:22 PM, Tom Marchant wrote:
> Same here. I use Libre office. I prefer it over Microsoft office.
>

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Steve Thompson

I have both M/S office products and Libre Office on W10 & W11 
laptops. The reason for that is, clients are tied to M/S so I 
have to use Office 365 for interfacing with them. I use Libre 
office when I do not want M/S to use One Drive, or otherwise 
don't need M/S software (We have our own file server which we use 
in-house).


So beware. If you turn off One Drive, M/S Office products will 
not autosave (in my experience with W10 or W11). They will not 
recover if M/S decides you need to reboot to finish updates.


Try to get M/S Support to see/recognize this as a problem. One 
Drive is common to M/S office apps and I think the bug is in One 
Drive. It wants to write to local disk, and then send your data 
into the M/S cloud.


But back to Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office 
products do (Word, & XL are what I use). Word is better at 
formatting documents than is Libre office in my experience. And 
XL has more features than Libre.






Steve Thompson

On 8/15/2023 1:22 PM, Tom Marchant wrote:

Same here. I use Libre office. I prefer it over Microsoft office.



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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Tom Marchant

Same here. I use Libre office. I prefer it over Microsoft office.

-- 
Tom Marchant

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 15:49:13 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>I find OpenOffice and LibreOffice perfectly adequate.

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Matt Hogstrom

I also use Office 365 … best bet for families with kids that need access as 
well.

Side note, I also pay for Creative Cloud which is far more economical than the 
individual bits.

Matt Hogstrom

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom

> On Aug 15, 2023, at 11:18 AM, Steve Beaver 
> <050e0c375a14-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Has anyone broken down and bought
> 
> Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Seymour J Metz

I find OpenOffice and LibreOffice perfectly adequate.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Farley, Peter <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:32 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

I’ve had Office 365 for years now, I find it useful to keep paying the yearly 
fee because they upgrade the individual components without me needing to 
concern myself with which version is current today and I can share it with my 
family for no extra charge.

In prior times when I consulted for a living I did always buy the 
“Professional” version because it included  Access.

A little time spent with Mr. Google says that the “Plus” version may be for 
“business volume purchases only”, not for individual purchase, but I may be 
mis-interpreting what I read.

HTH

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Has anyone

Has anyone broken down and bought

Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus

Regards,

Steve

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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw

I bought a second hand license at Gamers Outlet for very little UKpounds.
But it has not broken down.
Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Beaver
Sent: 15 August 2023 16:19
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Has anyone

Has anyone broken down and bought

Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Steve 

 


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Re: Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Farley, Peter

I’ve had Office 365 for years now, I find it useful to keep paying the yearly 
fee because they upgrade the individual components without me needing to 
concern myself with which version is current today and I can share it with my 
family for no extra charge.

In prior times when I consulted for a living I did always buy the 
“Professional” version because it included  Access.

A little time spent with Mr. Google says that the “Plus” version may be for 
“business volume purchases only”, not for individual purchase, but I may be 
mis-interpreting what I read.

HTH

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Has anyone



Has anyone broken down and bought



Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus



Regards,



Steve

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Has anyone

2023-08-15 Thread Steve Beaver

Has anyone broken down and bought

Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Steve 

 


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Re: Has anyone successfully configured TLS v1.3 in PAGENT?

2022-05-19 Thread David Spiegel

Hi Charles,
On my V2.5 (zPDT) system, it's still the V2.3 sample.
I would also be interested in a working AT-TLS 1.3 setup for FTP Server.

Regards,
David

On 2022-05-19 19:34, Charles Mills wrote:

I've got PAGENT working with TLS v1.2 and below for FTP Server.

I started working my way through
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fdocs%2Fen%2Fzos%2F2.4.0%3Ftopic%3Dsecurity-using-tlsv13-protocol-sdata=05%7C01%7C%7C43fff9e91ae84b4683b208da39f03863%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637886001180465401%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7Csdata=CDOrulaAieU9Bajj0vc0KDRiNx7xAW7EyETy5QiJurM%3Dreserved=0
upport. I've got the first step - those three additional ciphers -
configured. I'm trying to do the remaining steps and don't really have a
clue. I gather the only detail documentation is the sample files - someone
please tell me I am wrong about that - and it appears that what IBM
distributed as the sample file for V2R4
/usr/lpp/tcpip/samples/pagent_TTLS.conf is actually the V2R3 sample, which
(of course) contains no TLS v1.3.

Has anyone gotten this working? Would you be willing to share your
configuration changes for those remaining steps in the link above?

I don't have access at this moment to a V2R5 system. Has the sample been
updated there? If so, is anyone willing to slip a copy to me? If not, can
you at least tell me if it has been updated so I know what to ask IBM for?
My sample says # Status = CSV2R3 somewhere around line 9, and FIND for
Pairs or MiddleBox yield no hits.

I'm using the ISPF editor not z/OSMF. I am told that for simple PAGENT
configurations z/OSMF is overkill.

My interest at this point is configuring FTP Server for TLS v1.3, but I will
next be doing FTP Client.

Thanks!

Charles

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Has anyone successfully configured TLS v1.3 in PAGENT?

2022-05-19 Thread Charles Mills

I've got PAGENT working with TLS v1.2 and below for FTP Server.

I started working my way through
https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=security-using-tlsv13-protocol-s
upport. I've got the first step - those three additional ciphers -
configured. I'm trying to do the remaining steps and don't really have a
clue. I gather the only detail documentation is the sample files - someone
please tell me I am wrong about that - and it appears that what IBM
distributed as the sample file for V2R4
/usr/lpp/tcpip/samples/pagent_TTLS.conf is actually the V2R3 sample, which
(of course) contains no TLS v1.3.

Has anyone gotten this working? Would you be willing to share your
configuration changes for those remaining steps in the link above?

I don't have access at this moment to a V2R5 system. Has the sample been
updated there? If so, is anyone willing to slip a copy to me? If not, can
you at least tell me if it has been updated so I know what to ask IBM for?
My sample says #  Status = CSV2R3 somewhere around line 9, and FIND for
Pairs or MiddleBox yield no hits.

I'm using the ISPF editor not z/OSMF. I am told that for simple PAGENT
configurations z/OSMF is overkill. 

My interest at this point is configuring FTP Server for TLS v1.3, but I will
next be doing FTP Client.

Thanks!   

Charles 

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Re: Has anyone used VSAM repro with encipher?

2021-09-26 Thread Joe Monk

https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=encryption-steps-setting-up-icsf

Joe

On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 8:49 AM Radoslaw Skorupka 
wrote:

> IMHO the REPRO ENCIPHER is obsolete. It worked with CCF machines, that
> means z900 or older.
> z990 introduced CPACF and PCIXCC later renamed to CryptoExpress.
>
> Or maybe I missed some recent "back to the future" change?
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>
>
>
> W dniu 22.09.2021 o 19:47, Colin Paice pisze:
> > As part of looking into copying encrypted data sets from one system to
> > another, I tried using the VSAM REPRO ENCIPHER facility, and could not
> get
> > it working.
> > I suspect it hasnt been used for years (grin)
> > Has anyone got any JCL which worked, and information about the keys.  For
> > example do the keys need to be DATA|CIPHER|EXPORTER etc
> > Colin
>
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Re: Has anyone used VSAM repro with encipher?

2021-09-26 Thread Radoslaw Skorupka

IMHO the REPRO ENCIPHER is obsolete. It worked with CCF machines, that 
means z900 or older.

z990 introduced CPACF and PCIXCC later renamed to CryptoExpress.

Or maybe I missed some recent "back to the future" change?

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland



W dniu 22.09.2021 o 19:47, Colin Paice pisze:

As part of looking into copying encrypted data sets from one system to
another, I tried using the VSAM REPRO ENCIPHER facility, and could not get
it working.
I suspect it hasnt been used for years (grin)
Has anyone got any JCL which worked, and information about the keys.  For
example do the keys need to be DATA|CIPHER|EXPORTER etc
Colin


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Re: Has anyone used VSAM repro with encipher?

2021-09-22 Thread Carmen Vitullo


I have, been over 20 years but I still have some examples of using IDCAMS,

we used a transport key that we provided our partner and they provided 
their key, stored in the PKCS IIRC


let me know if you what some examples I can send you off-list

Carmen


On 9/22/2021 12:47 PM, Colin Paice wrote:

As part of looking into copying encrypted data sets from one system to
another, I tried using the VSAM REPRO ENCIPHER facility, and could not get
it working.
I suspect it hasnt been used for years (grin)
Has anyone got any JCL which worked, and information about the keys.  For
example do the keys need to be DATA|CIPHER|EXPORTER etc
Colin

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Has anyone used VSAM repro with encipher?

2021-09-22 Thread Colin Paice

As part of looking into copying encrypted data sets from one system to
another, I tried using the VSAM REPRO ENCIPHER facility, and could not get
it working.
I suspect it hasnt been used for years (grin)
Has anyone got any JCL which worked, and information about the keys.  For
example do the keys need to be DATA|CIPHER|EXPORTER etc
Colin

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Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

2020-12-08 Thread Seymour J Metz

XPROC sounds right. Thanks.

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http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Wayne Driscoll [wdrisc...@rocketsoftware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 5:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

Just catching up. You may be referring to “XPROC” which is on file 772 of the 
CBT tape, which I’ve used in private rexx execs.

Wayne Driscoll
Rocket Software
Note - All opinions are strictly my own.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 5:45 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

EXTERNAL EMAIL

There is an old REXX-callable package called something like XPARSE that uses 
IKJPARSE.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3<http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3>

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> on behalf of Jesse 
1 Robinson mailto:jesse1.robin...@sce.com>>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU<mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

No argument. Still, it's hard to beat the flexibility of TSO/CLIST parameter 
handling. I wrote a TSO command once partly for kicks. Really complicated. 
Pointers to pointers to pointers. When it was done, it was super easy to use. 
Sigh.

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com<mailto:robin...@sce.com>

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf Of Jeremy 
Nicoll
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU<mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
Subject: (External):Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

*** EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening links or attachments ***

On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, at 19:30, Charles Mills wrote:
> It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO
> format command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage.
>
> I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and
> others might disagree.

Surely very few people use command line TSO though? Isn't it more common if 
there's something complicated to do to offer the user an ispf panel (which will 
remember previous parameter choices) to set up the options they want?

Also, even if you do make TSO REXX IKJPARS-capable, all you're doing is making 
REXX inconsistent across all the different subsystems that it's usable in.

> The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing
> power, which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic 
> "MVS"
> (for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC
> that would accept parameters of
>
> 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ...

Why do you need quoted strings?

Something I do in some situations is make the very first character of an 
arbitrary string a delimiter, and then wherever that same character appears 
later on, the string gets chopped up on that. So

> 'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN

might become

!now isn't the time!nor, is this!MYTOKEN!YOURTOKEN

(I also sometimes have an escaped blank character so that an exec that expects 
a single token as its argument could be given

!the!meaning!of!life

but still process that as "the meaning of life".

Or I pass tokens which are: c2x(whatever)

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

2020-12-08 Thread Wayne Driscoll

Just catching up. You may be referring to “XPROC” which is on file 772 of the 
CBT tape, which I’ve used in private rexx execs.

Wayne Driscoll
Rocket Software
Note - All opinions are strictly my own.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 5:45 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

EXTERNAL EMAIL

There is an old REXX-callable package called something like XPARSE that uses 
IKJPARSE.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3<http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3>

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> on behalf of Jesse 
1 Robinson mailto:jesse1.robin...@sce.com>>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU<mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

No argument. Still, it's hard to beat the flexibility of TSO/CLIST parameter 
handling. I wrote a TSO command once partly for kicks. Really complicated. 
Pointers to pointers to pointers. When it was done, it was super easy to use. 
Sigh.

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com<mailto:robin...@sce.com>

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf Of Jeremy 
Nicoll
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU<mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
Subject: (External):Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

*** EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening links or attachments ***

On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, at 19:30, Charles Mills wrote:
> It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO
> format command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage.
>
> I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and
> others might disagree.

Surely very few people use command line TSO though? Isn't it more common if 
there's something complicated to do to offer the user an ispf panel (which will 
remember previous parameter choices) to set up the options they want?

Also, even if you do make TSO REXX IKJPARS-capable, all you're doing is making 
REXX inconsistent across all the different subsystems that it's usable in.

> The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing
> power, which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic 
> "MVS"
> (for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC
> that would accept parameters of
>
> 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ...

Why do you need quoted strings?

Something I do in some situations is make the very first character of an 
arbitrary string a delimiter, and then wherever that same character appears 
later on, the string gets chopped up on that. So

> 'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN

might become

!now isn't the time!nor, is this!MYTOKEN!YOURTOKEN

(I also sometimes have an escaped blank character so that an exec that expects 
a single token as its argument could be given

!the!meaning!of!life

but still process that as "the meaning of life".

Or I pass tokens which are: c2x(whatever)

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

I don't beleive that either squished or unsquished is a technical term, but if 
they're going to use one then why shouldn't we use the other?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Jackson, Rob 
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2020 2:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

Not that I found.  But I take it as a given they maintain an un-squished 
version.  By the way, I did not come up with that technical term.  They all 
have header comments like this:

/REXX**/
/* Part: AOFEIZPD  Squished:  19 May 2011 */

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2020 12:27 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

Did IBM also provide a libray of unsquished REXX code?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Jackson, Rob 
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 10:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

Years ago while disabling some built-in automation in SA for z/OS I found that 
the REXX code SA actually ran live was almost all "squished."  I didn't dig 
into it, but I assumed (I still believe safely) that it was to reduce 
interpreter overhead.  I just took a look at it tonight to see how the 
efficiency-minded SA developers coded keywords.  A brief look says the majority 
are first-letter capitalized (as Mike said to do, I believe--which is the 
reason I always have) or completely capitalized; however, there are enough 
exceptions to make me wonder.

By the way, if you haven't seen it, here's a snippet as an example.  It is 
really . . . something:

If cond = 'NOVALUE' | cond = 'HALT' Then rc = 'N/A';Select When cond = 'HALT' 
Then desc = 'CLIST HALTED'
When cond = 'SYNTAX' Then desc = errortext(rc);When cond = 'FAILURE' Then Do If 
rc = -1 Then;desc = 'COMMAND NOT FOUND';If rc = -3 Then desc = 'COMMAND NOT 
PERMITTED';End;Otherwise Nop;End "AOFMSG 
"cond",760,LOG,"loc.0me","sigl","rc",'"desc"'";Call Aof_Exit -5;Exit -5 
Aof_Silent_Error:;Call Aof_Exit 0;Exit 0;Aof_Exit:;Procedure Expose loc.
Do ix = 1 to Words(loc.0claim_tickets);ticket = WORD(loc.0claim_tickets,ix) 
Call INGPXDEL ticket;End;if loc.0UserExit = 'Y' then;call @User_Exit lrc = 
Arg(1);If Arg(2) <> 'TEXT' then;If datatype(lrc,'W') ^= 1 Then lrc = 0 
Select;When cglobal('AOFDEBUG') = 'Y' Then "AOFMSG" 
loc.0me",702,LOG,"time()","opid()","lrc;When loc.0debug = 'Y' Then Call 
Aof_Debug 'COMPLETE, RC='||lrc||'.';Otherwise nop;End;Exit lrc

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jeremy Nicoll
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 9:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020, at 02:20, Al Ferguson wrote:
> Performance reasons. Without the quotes REXX first interprets MVS as a
> variable name

Are you sure?

I thought that environment (after address) was one of the few places in REXX 
where quotes were unnecessary because what's typed there is regarded as a 
constant.

And, that if you actually wanted a variable's value to be used, you'd have to 
code

  address value varname

> Back in the MVS & MVS/XA Days, these types of performance
> optimizations were actually quite noticeable.

Even if what you said above was true, I doubt very much that capitalising the 
environment name would ever have make a measurable difference, bearing in mind 
how few times one would typically specify an address statement in a typical 
exec.

> I similarly "always" capitalize REXX Key words, to save REXX from
> having to spend cycles actually FOLDING then up.

It's been years since I wrote any REXX on a mainframe, but I know I didn't 
uppercase my code back then ... and a quick look at current manuals shows 
sample code is sometimes in uppercase, and sometimes mixed case.

Is this idea that uppercase REXX is more efficient something that everyone here 
accepts?

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN Confidentiality notice:
This

Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

2020-11-24 Thread Jackson, Rob

Not that I found.  But I take it as a given they maintain an un-squished 
version.  By the way, I did not come up with that technical term.  They all 
have header comments like this:

/REXX**/
/* Part: AOFEIZPD  Squished:  19 May 2011 */

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2020 12:27 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

Did IBM also provide a libray of unsquished REXX code?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Jackson, Rob 
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 10:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

Years ago while disabling some built-in automation in SA for z/OS I found that 
the REXX code SA actually ran live was almost all "squished."  I didn't dig 
into it, but I assumed (I still believe safely) that it was to reduce 
interpreter overhead.  I just took a look at it tonight to see how the 
efficiency-minded SA developers coded keywords.  A brief look says the majority 
are first-letter capitalized (as Mike said to do, I believe--which is the 
reason I always have) or completely capitalized; however, there are enough 
exceptions to make me wonder.

By the way, if you haven't seen it, here's a snippet as an example.  It is 
really . . . something:

If cond = 'NOVALUE' | cond = 'HALT' Then rc = 'N/A';Select When cond = 'HALT' 
Then desc = 'CLIST HALTED'
When cond = 'SYNTAX' Then desc = errortext(rc);When cond = 'FAILURE' Then Do If 
rc = -1 Then;desc = 'COMMAND NOT FOUND';If rc = -3 Then desc = 'COMMAND NOT 
PERMITTED';End;Otherwise Nop;End "AOFMSG 
"cond",760,LOG,"loc.0me","sigl","rc",'"desc"'";Call Aof_Exit -5;Exit -5 
Aof_Silent_Error:;Call Aof_Exit 0;Exit 0;Aof_Exit:;Procedure Expose loc.
Do ix = 1 to Words(loc.0claim_tickets);ticket = WORD(loc.0claim_tickets,ix) 
Call INGPXDEL ticket;End;if loc.0UserExit = 'Y' then;call @User_Exit lrc = 
Arg(1);If Arg(2) <> 'TEXT' then;If datatype(lrc,'W') ^= 1 Then lrc = 0 
Select;When cglobal('AOFDEBUG') = 'Y' Then "AOFMSG" 
loc.0me",702,LOG,"time()","opid()","lrc;When loc.0debug = 'Y' Then Call 
Aof_Debug 'COMPLETE, RC='||lrc||'.';Otherwise nop;End;Exit lrc

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jeremy Nicoll
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 9:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020, at 02:20, Al Ferguson wrote:
> Performance reasons. Without the quotes REXX first interprets MVS as a 
> variable name

Are you sure?

I thought that environment (after address) was one of the few places in REXX 
where quotes were unnecessary because what's typed there is regarded as a 
constant.

And, that if you actually wanted a variable's value to be used, you'd have to 
code

  address value varname

> Back in the MVS & MVS/XA Days, these types of performance 
> optimizations were actually quite noticeable.

Even if what you said above was true, I doubt very much that capitalising the 
environment name would ever have make a measurable difference, bearing in mind 
how few times one would typically specify an address statement in a typical 
exec.

> I similarly "always" capitalize REXX Key words, to save REXX from 
> having to spend cycles actually FOLDING then up.

It's been years since I wrote any REXX on a mainframe, but I know I didn't 
uppercase my code back then ... and a quick look at current manuals shows 
sample code is sometimes in uppercase, and sometimes mixed case.

Is this idea that uppercase REXX is more efficient something that everyone here 
accepts?

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN Confidentiality notice:
This e-mail message, including any attachments, may contain legally privileged 
and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient(s), or 
the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this message to the intended 
recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or 
copying of this e-mail message is strictly prohibited. If you have received 
this message in error, please immediately notify

Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

As I recall, NEATER made it readable, but there is no way to reconstruct the 
original indentation of, e.g., comments.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2020 12:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 17:26:30 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Did IBM also provide a libray of unsquished REXX code?
>
On CMS, they tend to provide two: source and compiled:

https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.rexa100/h198160575.htm

Would a pretty-printer have untangled your squisned PL/1?

There's a thread going on a Curl forum concerning methods
of transferring file permissions.  This chore is amplified by
extended attributes.  And the z/OS extensions to FTP for
transferring load modules make no accommodation for
possible need to have a non-IBM waystation.

-- gil

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Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

2020-11-24 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 17:26:30 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Did IBM also provide a libray of unsquished REXX code?
> 
On CMS, they tend to provide two: source and compiled:

https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.rexa100/h198160575.htm

Would a pretty-printer have untangled your squisned PL/1?

There's a thread going on a Curl forum concerning methods
of transferring file permissions.  This chore is amplified by
extended attributes.  And the z/OS extensions to FTP for
transferring load modules make no accommodation for
possible need to have a non-IBM waystation.

-- gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

Did IBM also provide a libray of unsquished REXX code?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Jackson, Rob 
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 10:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

Years ago while disabling some built-in automation in SA for z/OS I found that 
the REXX code SA actually ran live was almost all "squished."  I didn't dig 
into it, but I assumed (I still believe safely) that it was to reduce 
interpreter overhead.  I just took a look at it tonight to see how the 
efficiency-minded SA developers coded keywords.  A brief look says the majority 
are first-letter capitalized (as Mike said to do, I believe--which is the 
reason I always have) or completely capitalized; however, there are enough 
exceptions to make me wonder.

By the way, if you haven't seen it, here's a snippet as an example.  It is 
really . . . something:

If cond = 'NOVALUE' | cond = 'HALT' Then rc = 'N/A';Select
When cond = 'HALT' Then desc = 'CLIST HALTED'
When cond = 'SYNTAX' Then desc = errortext(rc);When cond = 'FAILURE' Then Do
If rc = -1 Then;desc = 'COMMAND NOT FOUND';If rc = -3 Then
desc = 'COMMAND NOT PERMITTED';End;Otherwise Nop;End
"AOFMSG "cond",760,LOG,"loc.0me","sigl","rc",'"desc"'";Call Aof_Exit -5;Exit -5
Aof_Silent_Error:;Call Aof_Exit 0;Exit 0;Aof_Exit:;Procedure Expose loc.
Do ix = 1 to Words(loc.0claim_tickets);ticket = WORD(loc.0claim_tickets,ix)
Call INGPXDEL ticket;End;if loc.0UserExit = 'Y' then;call @User_Exit
lrc = Arg(1);If Arg(2) <> 'TEXT' then;If datatype(lrc,'W') ^= 1 Then lrc = 0
Select;When cglobal('AOFDEBUG') = 'Y' Then
"AOFMSG" loc.0me",702,LOG,"time()","opid()","lrc;When loc.0debug = 'Y' Then
Call Aof_Debug 'COMPLETE, RC='||lrc||'.';Otherwise nop;End;Exit lrc

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jeremy Nicoll
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 9:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020, at 02:20, Al Ferguson wrote:
> Performance reasons. Without the quotes REXX first interprets MVS as a
> variable name

Are you sure?

I thought that environment (after address) was one of the few places in REXX 
where quotes were unnecessary because what's typed there is regarded as a 
constant.

And, that if you actually wanted a variable's value to be used, you'd have to 
code

  address value varname

> Back in the MVS & MVS/XA Days, these types of performance
> optimizations were actually quite noticeable.

Even if what you said above was true, I doubt very much that capitalising the 
environment name would ever have make a measurable difference, bearing in mind 
how few times one would typically specify an address statement in a typical 
exec.

> I similarly “always” capitalize REXX Key words, to save REXX from
> having to spend cycles actually FOLDING then up.

It's been years since I wrote any REXX on a mainframe, but I know I didn't 
uppercase my code back then ... and a quick look at current manuals shows 
sample code is sometimes in uppercase, and sometimes mixed case.

Is this idea that uppercase REXX is more efficient something that everyone here 
accepts?

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Confidentiality notice:
This e-mail message, including any attachments, may contain legally privileged 
and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient(s), or 
the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this message to the intended 
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Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

2020-11-24 Thread Charles Mills

> uppercase REXX is more efficient

Depending on how the interpreter is written I would guess there is no 
difference. If I wrote it, the logic would be to convert the token to uppercase 
and then look it up in a table. "Converting a token to uppercase" is no faster 
if it is already uppercase.

I suppose one might look up the token first in a list of uppercase keywords, 
and then if that failed, convert and try again, but that seems to me to be an 
odd way of doing things.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Jeremy Nicoll
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 6:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020, at 02:20, Al Ferguson wrote:
> Performance reasons. Without the quotes REXX first interprets MVS as a 
> variable name

Are you sure?

I thought that environment (after address) was one of the few places in 
REXX where quotes were unnecessary because what's typed there is 
regarded as a constant.

And, that if you actually wanted a variable's value to be used, you'd have
to code

  address value varname

> Back in the MVS & MVS/XA Days, these types of performance optimizations 
> were actually quite noticeable.

Even if what you said above was true, I doubt very much that capitalising
the environment name would ever have make a measurable difference,
bearing in mind how few times one would typically specify an address 
statement in a typical exec.

> I similarly “always” capitalize REXX Key words, to save REXX from 
> having to spend cycles actually FOLDING then up.

It's been years since I wrote any REXX on a mainframe, but I know I didn't
uppercase my code back then ... and a quick look at current manuals shows
sample code is sometimes in uppercase, and sometimes mixed case.

Is this idea that uppercase REXX is more efficient something that everyone 
here accepts?

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Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

I might believe

ADDRESS (CMD)

Unfortunately, CALL does not have a similar option, nor support the NAME option 
of ANSI REXX.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Al 
Ferguson 
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 10:56 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

They are not necessary, but you can use a variable after the ADDRESS.  I have 
written a few REXX programs where I used:
ADDRESS CMD

Where I set CMD = “environ actual-command”.

Any non-quoted word will:
1.  Be folded up to all caps, if not already
2.  Determine if it is a “REXX reserved word”
(environments are not reserved words)
3.  If not, it is a variable and is resolved
(non-initialized variables resolve to the variable name folded 
to all caps)
4.  The resolved string is then passed to the REXX Interpreter
5.  Then executed (or if not executable, an error raised)

Quoted strings are passed, as is, to the Interpreter; skipping the first 3 
steps.

Sent via Al Ferguson’s iPad

> On Nov 23, 2020, at 20:50, Jeremy Nicoll  
> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 24 Nov 2020, at 02:20, Al Ferguson wrote:
>> Performance reasons. Without the quotes REXX first interprets MVS as a
>> variable name
>
> Are you sure?
>
> I thought that environment (after address) was one of the few places in
> REXX where quotes were unnecessary because what's typed there is
> regarded as a constant.
>
> And, that if you actually wanted a variable's value to be used, you'd have
> to code
>
>  address value varname
>
>
>> Back in the MVS & MVS/XA Days, these types of performance optimizations
>> were actually quite noticeable.
>
> Even if what you said above was true, I doubt very much that capitalising
> the environment name would ever have make a measurable difference,
> bearing in mind how few times one would typically specify an address
> statement in a typical exec.
>
>
>> I similarly “always” capitalize REXX Key words, to save REXX from
>> having to spend cycles actually FOLDING then up.
>
> It's been years since I wrote any REXX on a mainframe, but I know I didn't
> uppercase my code back then ... and a quick look at current manuals shows
> sample code is sometimes in uppercase, and sometimes mixed case.
>
> Is this idea that uppercase REXX is more efficient something that everyone
> here accepts?
>
> --
> Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

"Note that the names of built-infunctions (and generally the names of external 
routines, too) are in uppercase; therefore, you should uppercase the name in 
the literal string."

That seems to say that REXX does *NOT* force it upper.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 11:05 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 02:07:20 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>I don't know why he quoted it, but quoting the environment name is certainly 
>valid. It's probably a matter of local style.
>
IIRC, in CMS quoted environment names and external function names
are taken as-is.  In TSO they are forced upper.  In OMVS I don't know
whether 'wombat'() and 'WOMBAT'() can distinguish the respective
functions in UNIX files.


On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 18:34:14 -0600, Al Ferguson wrote:

>FYI: EXECIO is supported by MVS and is not part of the TSO 
>extensions/functions of REXX.
>   ADDRESS “MVS” “EXECIO ”
>
>It appears to work under TSO, because REXX then passes it to MVS before 
>throughing an error.
>
Who excuses the unmatched "("?  But do I remember vaguely that
a missing ")" allowed in TSO commands?

>EXECIO can be used under IRXMVS,
>
"IRXMVS"?  "IRXJCL"?  Whatever.

>but you will need to use BPXWDYN if you want to do dynamic allocation
>(under OS390, BPXWDYN was part of, and required,USS. As of zOS,
>this is no longer the case).
>
IIRC, WJS early made BPXWDYN available as a load module on the
Tools & Toys page, but it never depended on OMVS.

Irritatingly, ADDRESS MVS EXECIO under OMVS has different syntax
and semantics from ADDRESS MVS EXECIO under TSO.  I understand
that "ADDRESS sh 'time'" is different from "ADDRESS TSO 'time'", but
the same host environment should be the same.


On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 11:57:55 +1000, Peter Vels wrote:

>x all 'foo bar'
>del all x
>
Of course.  Thanks.

The drawback is that you're flying blind; you don't see the lines
you're about to delete.  But IIRC vaguely that there's a command
that swaps X and NX lines.

Counting keystrokes because I believe interactive editing should
be a motor skill; ergonomically minimal:  Don't you need a couple
s in there?


On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 20:20:31 -0600, Al Ferguson wrote:

>Performance reasons. Without the quotes REXX first interprets MVS as a 
>variable name, which (probable) has not been set, so takes on the value of the 
>variable name in caps. By putting it in caps, and enclosing it in quotes, I 
>save REXX a few steps and it goes directly to the MVS ADDRESS environment to 
>find the EXECIO function.
>
The formal syntax of Rexx is a nightmare.  Consider the differences between:
address MVS
address ( MVS )
address(  MVS )
address( "MVS" )
... all different.
>...
>I similarly “always” capitalize REXX Key words, to save REXX from having to 
>spend cycles actually FOLDING then up. Old habits, but again I think more 
>readable.
>
I doubt that matters much.  But there's an obe\servable advantage
of "x==y" over "X=Y".  But beware the semantic difference.

And function calls are expensive.  PARSE is faster than SUBSTR() if
you can do the same thing with either.

-- gil

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Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?