Re: I want to cry

[Seymour J Metz]

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticon>


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 6:08 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

Some people indicate ":)" by "" or "" or the like.  The nice thing 
about that is that you can put ~anything~ in there to make the meaning clear.  
 and , for example; I know I'm not the only one to use that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel.  -attributed to 
Mark Twain */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Hank Oerlemans
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 17:23

:-)

I need emojis..text emojis make no sense to me.

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Re: I want to cry

[Bob Bridges]

Some people indicate ":)" by "" or "" or the like.  The nice thing 
about that is that you can put ~anything~ in there to make the meaning clear.  
 and , for example; I know I'm not the only one to use that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel.  -attributed to 
Mark Twain */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Hank Oerlemans
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 17:23

:-)

I need emojis..text emojis make no sense to me.

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Re: I want to cry

[Hank Oerlemans]

:-)

I need emojis..text emojis make no sense to me.

Hank

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Re: I want to cry

[Hank Oerlemans]

A very small speciality :-)

Hank

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Re: I want to cry

[Phil Smith III]

Well, now that we've devolved to swapping histories: 

I first used a keypunch when I was four, in 1965. My dad rented one and had
it installed in the house because he was working on a concordance program.
His first project was Beowulf, and he needed the text to be input, which my
mother volunteered to do (or for all I know, he paid her out of some grant).
https://www.amazon.com/Concordance-Beowulf-Jess-B-Bessinger/dp/0801404800
was the result (note that B comes before S, so it's listed under his
collaborator's name but you can see "SMITH" on the spine in the picture).
That was on OS/360; he ported the program to VM, and when he retired in
1989, he rewrote it from PL/I to C on Windows.

One result of that concordance is that there's a line in Woody Allen's Annie
Hall where she says she's thinking of going back to school, and he says,
"Just don't take anything where they make you read Beowulf!" It's a
throwaway line, but my family finds it inordinately funny, since we lived
with that project for a half-dozen years.

A decade after the Beowulf keypunch, I sat in on my dad's PL/C introduction
to programming at University of Waterloo, where he taught, the summer after
my 8th grade. Kind of a big deal-kids didn't generally get to touch
computers in 1975! And I remember a friend-a bright guy-who asked me what
the computer's voice sounded like. I had to break the news to him that we
were still using cards. Too much Star Trek.

That was the year after I'd started playing a SUMER game via dialup (300bps,
I think-possibly 110) on my dad's VM/370 account. In that game, you were
king of Mesopotamia and had to manage the grain harvest: so many bushels for
food, so many for bribing the barbarians, etc.; you could also buy and sell
land. But it only let you play for either 2 or 3 "years" (harvests), which
was profoundly unsatisfying. Once I found that the EXEC that invoked it
issued a command against another file, which comprised a semi-English-like
language, I tinkered until I had a version that would ask you how many years
you wanted to play for. My first hack! Nowadays, of course, I would have
contributed it back to the U, but back then it honestly never occurred to
me. And I've looked for but not found SUMER. I think it was years later that
I realized the language was BASIC. Not sure I've written any actual BASIC
since, though I've tinkered with VB and VBS.


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Re: I want to cry

[Bob Bridges]

I'm sure I've posted this before, but since you bring it up...

---

Jack was a COBOL programmer in the late 1990s who (after years of being treated 
as a technological dinosaur by all the UNIX programmers, Client/Server 
programmers, website developers etc) was finally getting some respect:  He'd 
become a private consultant specializing in Year-2000 conversions.  He was 
working short-term assignments for prestigious companies, traveling all over 
the world on different assignments.  He was working 70- and 80- and even 
90-hour weeks, but it was worth it.

However, several years of this relentless, mind-numbing work had taken its toll 
on Jack.  He had problems sleeping and began having anxiety dreams about the 
year 2000.  It had reached a point where even the thought of the year 2000 made 
him nearly violent.  He must have suffered some sort of breakdown, because all 
he could think about was how he could avoid the year 2000 and all that came 
with it.

Near the end of 1998 Jack had decided to contact a company that specialized in 
cryogenics.  He made a deal to have himself frozen until 2001 through their 
totally automated (and very expensive) process.  He was thrilled.  The next 
thing he would know, he'd wake up in the year 2001 -- after the New Year 
celebrations and computer debacles, and after the dust had settled. Nothing 
else to worry about except getting on with his life.

He was put into his cryogenic receptacle, the technicians set the revive date, 
he was given injections to slow his heartbeat to a bare minimum, and that was 
that.

The next thing Jack saw was an enormous room filled with excited people.  They 
were all shouting "I can't believe it!" and "It's a miracle" and "He's alive!". 
 There were odd-looking cameras and equipment that looked like it came out of a 
science-fiction movie.

Someone who was obviously a spokesperson for the group stepped forward.  Jack 
couldn't contain his enthusiasm.  "It's over?" he asked.  "Is 2001 already 
here?  Are all the millennial parties and promotions and crises all over and 
done with?"

The spokesman explained that there had been a problem with the programming of 
the timer on Jack's cryogenic receptacle.  It hadn't been year-2000 compliant; 
it was actually 8000 years later, not the year 2001.  But the spokesman told 
Jack that he shouldn't get excited; someone important wanted to speak to him.

Suddenly a wall-sized projection screen displayed the image of a man that had a 
striking resemblance to Bill Gates.  This man was Prime Minister of Earth.  He 
told Jack not to be upset - that this was a wonderful time to be alive.  There 
was world peace and no more starvation.  The space program had been reïnstated 
and there were colonies on the moon and on Mars.  That technology had advanced 
to such a degree that everyone had virtual-reality interfaces that allowed them 
to contact anyone else on the planet, or to watch any entertainment, or to hear 
any music recorded anywhere.

"That sounds terrific," said Jack. "But I'm curious:  Why is everybody so 
interested in me?"

"Well," said the Prime Minister.  "The year 10 000 is just around the corner, 
and it says in your files you know COBOL..."

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Law #15 of combat operations: The enemy invariably attacks on two occasions:
  - When they're ready.
  - When you're not. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 16:33

When we all are gone, I'm afraid that what one of the old SCI-FI writers said 
in a story that I've now forgotten the title to, that the society will collapse 
because no one knows how to fix anything. Maybe some old COBOL programmer will 
be left in a cryocrypt that they can get out and solve their medical problem, 
for them to be able to explain how to fix.

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Re: I want to cry

[Bob Bridges]

I haven't written in COBOL since some time in the 1980s.  That's not counting a 
short ciphering routine I wrote coming up on Y2K, and a lot of ~reading~ COBOL 
programs for a client in 2012.  But I keep hearing that COBOL is keeping up 
with the times, and I'm sort of curious.  What's been added?  It already had 
most of the capability that I can imagine it needing.

(In my day the fanciest COBOL statements I can think of were STRING and 
UNSTRING.  At least one employer at the time didn't allow us to use them, on 
the grounds that they were seldom used and a novice COBOL coder might not be 
familiar with them.  My own position on that - and a later boss agreed - is 
that STRING and UNSTRING are COBOL, do you hear there?, and if a novice COBOL 
coder isn't familiar with them then that's ok and his job is to ~get~ familiar 
with them.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Your man...doesn't think of doctrines as primarily "true" or "false", but as 
"academic" or "practical", "outworn" or "contemporary"Don't waste time 
trying to make him think that materialism is ~true~!  Make him think it is 
strong or stark or courageous -- that it is the philosophy of the future.  
-advice to a tempter from _The Screwtape Letters_ by C S Lewis */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gibney, Dave
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 16:30

Digressing from my statement that COBOL was not hard to learn. And as has 
been also stated, modern Cobol is capable of many things that used to be tricky 
to do, but were possible even then. (1980s)

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Re: I want to cry

[Steve Thompson]

I can hold my silence no longer.

FORTRAN in HS, Intro in college was FORTRAN, then 2 semesters of 
ALC (S/360 DOS) and 1 of RPG|RPGII.


Taught myself COBOL well enough that in 2 weeks I could work on 
it and do macro level CICS (CICS 1.1.1 -- LONG before CICS/TS for 
you folk in CICS dev/support these days) and FASTER/MT or was it 
MT/FASTER?


Eventually to the best job I ever had, working at AMDAHL in 
MDF/Macrocode development, where my component was Machine Check 
handling, and getting ready for ESA when they started laying off. 
The things I learned about S/370...


I can still read manuals and learn stuff unlike most of the 
current crop of kids. Which is what started this thread. But in 
my case I just wanna SCREAM!!  Because I ended up writing tech 
manuals or parts of them for IBM and various ISVs over the years. 
And in my last position, I wrote a utility to generate all the 
JCL needed to do COBOL compiles, for CICS, DB2, PROCOBOL, IDMS... 
And these kids couldn't be bothered to use PF1 (all field level 
help, besides screen level help).


Typical call, The compiler is broken. Which compiler They 
thought the tool was a compiler. And they didn't understand the 
message(s) it put out. Or the JOB failed because their changes 
were syntactically incorrect.


When we all are gone, I'm afraid that what one of the old SCI-FI 
writers said in a story that I've now forgotten the title to, 
that the society will collapse because no one knows how to fix 
anything. Maybe some old COBOL programmer will be left in a 
cryocrypt that they can get out and solve their medical problem, 
for them to be able to explain how to fix.


Steve Thompson

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Re: I want to cry

[Gibney, Dave]

It's been a long time since I keypunched. Never had to for work. 
I was going to write S370, but as I seemingly often do, I held the shift and 
did S#&)

Digressing from my statement that COBOL was not hard to learn. And as has been 
also stated, modern Cobol is capable of many things that used to be tricky to 
do, but were possible even then. (1980s)

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2023 1:20 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: I want to cry
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> 
> On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 21:11:34 +, Gibney, Dave  wrote:
> 
> >370 assembler . Sticky shift finger
> >
> Keypunch?
> 
> --
> gil
> 
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Re: I want to cry

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 21:11:34 +, Gibney, Dave  wrote:

>370 assembler . Sticky shift finger
>
Keypunch?

-- 
gil

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Re: I want to cry

[Gibney, Dave]

370 assembler . Sticky shift finger

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Gibney, Dave
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2023 1:11 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: I want to cry
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> 
> COBOL was almost trivial to learn, after a semester of #&) Assemble out of
> Struble. But, I guess by then it was at least my 4th or 5th language.
> 
> I came up from application programming, then supporting a few (CA)
> products to sysprog about the time of ESA
> 
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Re: I want to cry

[Gibney, Dave]

COBOL was almost trivial to learn, after a semester of #&) Assemble out of 
Struble. But, I guess by then it was at least my 4th or 5th language.

I came up from application programming, then supporting a few (CA) products to 
sysprog about the time of ESA

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Re: I want to cry

[Seymour J Metz]

I started out in assembler, but I  worked with operators who later became 
programmers and systems programmers.











































From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
william janulin <008d52e04f2e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 1:49 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

Good points. A lot of us started off in operations first then went on to 
application development. Eventually, some of us moved over to systems 
programming. Then.later the silos were created for operating systems 
maintenance, networking, and database.
Today circling back, all those roles were melded into one individual wearing 
many hats, thanks to the Muckety mucks trying to kill the mainframe.
So here we are.
Bill Janulin.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

  On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 13:37, Paul Gorlinsky wrote:   
Absolutely! They should be taught how to program and debug first, then the 
constructs of individual languages.

Many of us have programed on all sorts of machines from the IBM mainframe, to 
the IBM PC, 8080s, z80s, Univac 1050-II, Xeon, Arm, etc. and different 
languages from all the of different assemblers, PL/I, COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, 
REXX, C, JAVA, et.al.

And can move freely between them.

But alas, even company trained systems programmers AREN'T systems 
programmers... They are installers, administrators, etc. that can't write a 
lick of assembler code ...

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: I want to cry

[Paul Gorlinsky]

For the state of Oregon DMV, I wrote a set of pure CICS Cobol programs that 
implemented a TCPIP client and server for interaction with the states law 
enforcement windows based message switching system. It provided photos and text 
data to Cop cars and other devices … 

Cobol was chosen because C was not used as a shop standard.

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: I want to cry

[Pommier, Rex]

They had a bad COBOL instructor!  We were writing our first program in the 
first 2 weeks of my first COBOL course.  We didn't understand all the details 
of the FILE DIVISION et al at that point, but we were at least learning the 
language and applying it.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 1:27 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: I want to cry

I hesitate at this first line, Paul.  I can't tell its context (because you 
deleted the post you're responding to, ahem!), but I'm remembering how I got 
into programming when I first encountered it:

Professor, on the VERY FIRST DAY of class: So if you're writing a program to 
compare two numbers and display the larger one, what's the first thing you have 
to do?

Class, after thoughtful silence: Well, you print the larger number...
Class: You compare the numbers
Class: [Other ideas]

Professor: Nope.  The VERY FIRST thing you have to do is GET THE FIRST NUMBER!

...And he wrote on the blackboard:  GET N1

Then: GET N2

And eventually: PUT ANSWER

The language was PL/C (a subset of PL/1), so the verbs GET and PUT are in the 
language; without knowing it, we (well, he) had just written our first 
syntactically correct PL/1 program.

On the first or second day of class he handed out cards with JCL on them that 
we could wrap around the programs we wrote so as to get answers back at the 
printer at the data center.  A week or two in he required us to write a program 
that would read data from a catalogued dataset, so we had to code for unknown 
inputs.  The realization that other languages used other syntax came later; we 
were coding, even with an imperfect understanding of how it works.

Meanwhile I talked with students of a COBOL course who were six weeks into the 
class and only then encountering loops - but only in books, for they were a 
long way from being permitted to write a program for themselves.  I heartily 
recommend how my own teacher did it.

Of course you may not have meant any differently.  But it sounded a little like 
it.  Me, I was immediately hooked, and started spending all my free time at the 
data center, teaching myself FORTRAN and Basic and writing games and accounting 
utilities (accounting being my major).  Had I taken that COBOL course, I'm sure 
it would have confirmed me in my initial supposition that programming must be 
boring.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

* Political correctness is the opposite of thought. It proceeds by moral 
condemnation and emotional outrage: Anyone who can imagine such a thought must 
be a bad person, or a crazy one.  -Maggie Gallagher, 2005-02-22 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gorlinsky
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 13:37

Absolutely! They should be taught how to program and debug first, then the 
constructs of individual languages. 

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Re: I want to cry

[Paul Gorlinsky]

Oregon State was using a pseudo language system to teach ... not a mainstream 
language.

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Re: I want to cry

[Bob Bridges]

I hesitate at this first line, Paul.  I can't tell its context (because you 
deleted the post you're responding to, ahem!), but I'm remembering how I got 
into programming when I first encountered it:

Professor, on the VERY FIRST DAY of class: So if you're writing a program to 
compare two numbers and display the larger one, what's the first thing you have 
to do?

Class, after thoughtful silence: Well, you print the larger number...
Class: You compare the numbers
Class: [Other ideas]

Professor: Nope.  The VERY FIRST thing you have to do is GET THE FIRST NUMBER!

...And he wrote on the blackboard:  GET N1

Then: GET N2

And eventually: PUT ANSWER

The language was PL/C (a subset of PL/1), so the verbs GET and PUT are in the 
language; without knowing it, we (well, he) had just written our first 
syntactically correct PL/1 program.

On the first or second day of class he handed out cards with JCL on them that 
we could wrap around the programs we wrote so as to get answers back at the 
printer at the data center.  A week or two in he required us to write a program 
that would read data from a catalogued dataset, so we had to code for unknown 
inputs.  The realization that other languages used other syntax came later; we 
were coding, even with an imperfect understanding of how it works.

Meanwhile I talked with students of a COBOL course who were six weeks into the 
class and only then encountering loops - but only in books, for they were a 
long way from being permitted to write a program for themselves.  I heartily 
recommend how my own teacher did it.

Of course you may not have meant any differently.  But it sounded a little like 
it.  Me, I was immediately hooked, and started spending all my free time at the 
data center, teaching myself FORTRAN and Basic and writing games and accounting 
utilities (accounting being my major).  Had I taken that COBOL course, I'm sure 
it would have confirmed me in my initial supposition that programming must be 
boring.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

* Political correctness is the opposite of thought. It proceeds by moral 
condemnation and emotional outrage: Anyone who can imagine such a thought must 
be a bad person, or a crazy one.  -Maggie Gallagher, 2005-02-22 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gorlinsky
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 13:37

Absolutely! They should be taught how to program and debug first, then the 
constructs of individual languages. 

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Re: I want to cry

[Paul Gorlinsky]

Spend a year reading customers dumps on paper upside down ... 

Most were S0C7 ... what do you do when the debuggers are broken?

Yes, you have to understand the machine instructions, but not every one of them 
...

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Re: I want to cry

[Tom Marchant]

It is very difficult to debug an abend in a Cobol program unless you can at 
least read the generated assembler. Of course, these days, there are programs 
that will do it for you.

-- 
Tom Marchant

On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 18:27:57 -0500, Tony Thigpen  wrote:

>Ok, so exactly why is that a problem?
>
>Tony Thigpen
>
>Bob Bridges wrote on 2/3/23 13:09:
>> It is a little distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how many 
>> "programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.
>>
>> ---
>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>>
>> /* How agitated I am when I am in the garden, and how happy I am to be so 
>> agitated.  Nothing works just the way I thought it would, nothing looks just 
>> the way I had imagined it, and when sometimes it does look like what I had 
>> imagined (and this, thank God, is rare) I am startled that my imagination is 
>> so ordinary.  -Jamaica Kincaid, _My Garden Book_ */
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>> zMan
>> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50
>>
>> And unless COBOL is the only programming language you've ever seen, it seems 
>> unlikely that you wouldn't know what a variable is.
>>
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Re: I want to cry

[Carmen Vitullo]

Absolutely!
I fall into the last category now :( - went to tech school for data processing, 
RPG and RPG II some COBOL in the 70's
went for my fist job with Chilton Research for a programmers position, I ended 
up being one of those folks you don't want to get a call from.
 I left there and was able to get a job with Sears hoping to be a programmer 
only to get a job as an operator, but I was provided the opportunity to learn 
application level assembler programing, everyone, even my managers and supers 
were assembler programmers, it was then I was taught how to shoot a dump, but 
my ability was limited in assembler, moving on from Sears to other gigs I had 
the opportunity to learn exit routines and update some JES2 MOD's (when IBM 
provided source) but most of my job(s), especially working with IBM was as you 
said, install, adim and debug system and product issues.
Over time I learned how to design and build sysplex systems along with all the 
other  all all the other cool stuff that goes with administering a z/OS SYSPLEX.
most managers now only want us to document (desktop) procedures thinking it's 
so easy just for us to document what we do so the next kid can take over, yeah, 
I'd like to see that.
sorry for the expanded version of my response.
Carmen

On 2/6/2023 12:37 PM, Paul Gorlinsky wrote:

Absolutely! They should be taught how to program and debug first, then the 
constructs of individual languages.

Many of us have programed on all sorts of machines from the IBM mainframe, to 
the IBM PC, 8080s, z80s, Univac 1050-II, Xeon, Arm, etc. and different 
languages from all the of different assemblers, PL/I, COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, 
REXX, C, JAVA, et.al.

And can move freely between them.

But alas, even company trained systems programmers AREN'T systems 
programmers... They are installers, administrators, etc. that can't write a 
lick of assembler code ...

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Carmen

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Re: I want to cry

[william janulin]

Good points. A lot of us started off in operations first then went on to 
application development. Eventually, some of us moved over to systems 
programming. Then.later the silos were created for operating systems 
maintenance, networking, and database. 
Today circling back, all those roles were melded into one individual wearing 
many hats, thanks to the Muckety mucks trying to kill the mainframe.
So here we are.
Bill Janulin. 
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 13:37, Paul Gorlinsky wrote:   
Absolutely! They should be taught how to program and debug first, then the 
constructs of individual languages. 

Many of us have programed on all sorts of machines from the IBM mainframe, to 
the IBM PC, 8080s, z80s, Univac 1050-II, Xeon, Arm, etc. and different 
languages from all the of different assemblers, PL/I, COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, 
REXX, C, JAVA, et.al.

And can move freely between them. 

But alas, even company trained systems programmers AREN'T systems 
programmers... They are installers, administrators, etc. that can't write a 
lick of assembler code ...

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Re: I want to cry

[Paul Gorlinsky]

Absolutely! They should be taught how to program and debug first, then the 
constructs of individual languages. 

Many of us have programed on all sorts of machines from the IBM mainframe, to 
the IBM PC, 8080s, z80s, Univac 1050-II, Xeon, Arm, etc. and different 
languages from all the of different assemblers, PL/I, COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, 
REXX, C, JAVA, et.al.

And can move freely between them. 

But alas, even company trained systems programmers AREN'T systems 
programmers... They are installers, administrators, etc. that can't write a 
lick of assembler code ...

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Re: I want to cry

[Michael Watkins]

I'd guess there is no one that receives these emails who has an interest in 
every topic discussed, whether those topics are in technical threads or more 
the more 'off-topic' threads.

If a thread does not interest me, I simply ignore it. I find that works for me, 
whether the thread is technical or off-topic. If or when that doesn't work for 
me, I'll unsubscribe.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 12:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Texas Comptroller's email 
system.
DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you expect them from the sender 
and know the content is safe.

Bingo. There are more people here who never help versus those that do. Also, 
there are far more mainframe people who aren’t even subscribed to IBM-MAIN than 
are subscribed. I have rarely needed assistance but when I did, I RTFM, or went 
directly to IBM or IBMers. Sent direct emails to Mr. Thomen,(RIP) Mr. 
Quackenbush, and others whose expertise is beyond this forum. Do I think there 
are talented individuals here? Of course. But, there are also some who are full 
of crap or just here for the professional networking.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 12:52 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

It's a bit more complicated. While there ma be people who never help and people 
who always help, there are also people whose response depends on how busy they 
are at the time and who is requesting assistance.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Tom 
Brennan 
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 12:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

"IT was just the means to an end"

Ah, that explains why I can't remember you ever helping someone here with a 
technical issue.  Pretty-much anyone I've ever worked with who got into this 
business *only* because they saw money, was generally less-technical and often 
ended up in management.  The folks who were truly interested in computers were 
the ones who got things done technically and were always ready to help others.

On 2/6/2023 9:01 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Me too. People who post non-stop, every day, all day, obviously have no life 
> outside of IBM-MAIN. Whereas, I rarely post because I’m doing a ton of 
> traveling. But, that’s been true throughout my IT career. Whether it was my 
> travels to NY to be on the MILLIONAIRE show, my $10,000 reward for helping 
> the FBI solve a robbery of an armored car facility, to global travels, IT was 
> just the means to an end. Not what defined me. Back to lurking.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, February 6, 2023, 11:50 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:
>
> I do feel sorry for those of you who evidently have no social life 
> whatsoever outside of IBM-MAIN.
>
> But most of us would be very gratified if you'd STFU about off-topics.
> You're polluting the forum and wasting our time.
>
> sas
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>

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Re: I want to cry

[Bill Johnson]

Bingo. There are more people here who never help versus those that do. Also, 
there are far more mainframe people who aren’t even subscribed to IBM-MAIN than 
are subscribed. I have rarely needed assistance but when I did, I RTFM, or went 
directly to IBM or IBMers. Sent direct emails to Mr. Thomen,(RIP) Mr. 
Quackenbush, and others whose expertise is beyond this forum. Do I think there 
are talented individuals here? Of course. But, there are also some who are full 
of crap or just here for the professional networking. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 12:52 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

It's a bit more complicated. While there ma be people who never help and people 
who always help, there are also people whose response depends on how busy they 
are at the time and who is requesting assistance.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Tom 
Brennan 
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 12:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

"IT was just the means to an end"

Ah, that explains why I can't remember you ever helping someone here
with a technical issue.  Pretty-much anyone I've ever worked with who
got into this business *only* because they saw money, was generally
less-technical and often ended up in management.  The folks who were
truly interested in computers were the ones who got things done
technically and were always ready to help others.

On 2/6/2023 9:01 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Me too. People who post non-stop, every day, all day, obviously have no life 
> outside of IBM-MAIN. Whereas, I rarely post because I’m doing a ton of 
> traveling. But, that’s been true throughout my IT career. Whether it was my 
> travels to NY to be on the MILLIONAIRE show, my $10,000 reward for helping 
> the FBI solve a robbery of an armored car facility, to global travels, IT was 
> just the means to an end. Not what defined me. Back to lurking.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, February 6, 2023, 11:50 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:
>
> I do feel sorry for those of you who evidently have no social life
> whatsoever outside of IBM-MAIN.
>
> But most of us would be very gratified if you'd STFU about off-topics.
> You're polluting the forum and wasting our time.
>
> sas
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>

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Re: I want to cry

[Seymour J Metz]

It's a bit more complicated. While there ma be people who never help and people 
who always help, there are also people whose response depends on how busy they 
are at the time and who is requesting assistance.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Tom 
Brennan 
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 12:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

"IT was just the means to an end"

Ah, that explains why I can't remember you ever helping someone here
with a technical issue.  Pretty-much anyone I've ever worked with who
got into this business *only* because they saw money, was generally
less-technical and often ended up in management.  The folks who were
truly interested in computers were the ones who got things done
technically and were always ready to help others.

On 2/6/2023 9:01 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Me too. People who post non-stop, every day, all day, obviously have no life 
> outside of IBM-MAIN. Whereas, I rarely post because I’m doing a ton of 
> traveling. But, that’s been true throughout my IT career. Whether it was my 
> travels to NY to be on the MILLIONAIRE show, my $10,000 reward for helping 
> the FBI solve a robbery of an armored car facility, to global travels, IT was 
> just the means to an end. Not what defined me. Back to lurking.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, February 6, 2023, 11:50 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:
>
> I do feel sorry for those of you who evidently have no social life
> whatsoever outside of IBM-MAIN.
>
> But most of us would be very gratified if you'd STFU about off-topics.
> You're polluting the forum and wasting our time.
>
> sas
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>

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Re: I want to cry

[Bill Johnson]

Your analysis is incorrect. I’m highly technical. But, my expertise is varied. 
I’m a jack of all trades. Programming, DASD management, DBA, MQ, z/OS, lots of 
third party software, Security, etc. Why do I need to add my cents when there 
are plenty of know it alls with no actual work to do other than post here?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 12:30 PM, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:

"IT was just the means to an end"

Ah, that explains why I can't remember you ever helping someone here 
with a technical issue.  Pretty-much anyone I've ever worked with who 
got into this business *only* because they saw money, was generally 
less-technical and often ended up in management.  The folks who were 
truly interested in computers were the ones who got things done 
technically and were always ready to help others.

On 2/6/2023 9:01 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Me too. People who post non-stop, every day, all day, obviously have no life 
> outside of IBM-MAIN. Whereas, I rarely post because I’m doing a ton of 
> traveling. But, that’s been true throughout my IT career. Whether it was my 
> travels to NY to be on the MILLIONAIRE show, my $10,000 reward for helping 
> the FBI solve a robbery of an armored car facility, to global travels, IT was 
> just the means to an end. Not what defined me. Back to lurking.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, February 6, 2023, 11:50 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:
> 
> I do feel sorry for those of you who evidently have no social life
> whatsoever outside of IBM-MAIN.
> 
> But most of us would be very gratified if you'd STFU about off-topics.
> You're polluting the forum and wasting our time.
> 
> sas
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 
> 

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Re: I want to cry

[Tom Brennan]

"IT was just the means to an end"

Ah, that explains why I can't remember you ever helping someone here 
with a technical issue.  Pretty-much anyone I've ever worked with who 
got into this business *only* because they saw money, was generally 
less-technical and often ended up in management.  The folks who were 
truly interested in computers were the ones who got things done 
technically and were always ready to help others.


On 2/6/2023 9:01 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:

Me too. People who post non-stop, every day, all day, obviously have no life 
outside of IBM-MAIN. Whereas, I rarely post because I’m doing a ton of 
traveling. But, that’s been true throughout my IT career. Whether it was my 
travels to NY to be on the MILLIONAIRE show, my $10,000 reward for helping the 
FBI solve a robbery of an armored car facility, to global travels, IT was just 
the means to an end. Not what defined me. Back to lurking.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 11:50 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:

I do feel sorry for those of you who evidently have no social life
whatsoever outside of IBM-MAIN.

But most of us would be very gratified if you'd STFU about off-topics.
You're polluting the forum and wasting our time.

sas

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Re: I want to cry

[Bill Johnson]

Me too. People who post non-stop, every day, all day, obviously have no life 
outside of IBM-MAIN. Whereas, I rarely post because I’m doing a ton of 
traveling. But, that’s been true throughout my IT career. Whether it was my 
travels to NY to be on the MILLIONAIRE show, my $10,000 reward for helping the 
FBI solve a robbery of an armored car facility, to global travels, IT was just 
the means to an end. Not what defined me. Back to lurking.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 11:50 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:

I do feel sorry for those of you who evidently have no social life
whatsoever outside of IBM-MAIN.

But most of us would be very gratified if you'd STFU about off-topics.
You're polluting the forum and wasting our time.

sas

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Re: I want to cry

[Steve Smith]

I do feel sorry for those of you who evidently have no social life
whatsoever outside of IBM-MAIN.

But most of us would be very gratified if you'd STFU about off-topics.
You're polluting the forum and wasting our time.

sas

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Re: I want to cry

[Mohammad Khan]

At least they listened to the esteemed professor with respect to teaching it 
... and it looks like he didn't say anything about coding in it :)

MKK

On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 19:42:12 -0500, Steve Smith  wrote:

>Well, Dijkstra [in]famously said “The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its
>teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense.”
>

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Re: I want to cry

[Bill Johnson]

lol bully? The opposite. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 9:53 AM, Carmen Vitullo  
wrote:

checking my trash folder, the best place to find your responses, my 
question to "

I didn’t start the off topic discussion but I’m not going to let bullsh*t go 
unchallenged."
*is WHY? *
why do you feel you HAVE TO?
bully?
who cares
go back to your political forum where you can bully people there
- don't bother responding, I will not spend the time sorting thru my trash for 
any response
Carmen

On 2/6/2023 8:47 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I didn’t start the off topic discussion but I’m not going to let bullsh*t go 
> unchallenged.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, February 6, 2023, 9:35 AM, Lionel B. Dyck  wrote:
>
> It is time to remember that this is a technical forum.
>
>
> Lionel B. Dyck <><
> Website:https://www.lbdsoftware.com
> Github:https://github.com/lbdyck
>
> “Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
> are, reputation merely what others think you are.”  - - - John Wooden
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Bill Johnson
> Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 8:30 AM
> To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: I want to cry
>
> The World Health Organization rates the US health care system 37th in the 
> world. France is rated number 1. The US health care system isn’t even close 
> to being better than most. And those social democratic countries get better 
> health care for half the costs. I’m also all for higher taxes on corporations 
> that currently pay no taxes yet make billions. Even Warren Buffett says taxes 
> on the wealthy should be higher.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, February 6, 2023, 7:45 AM, Allan 
> Staller<0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>  wrote:
>
> Classification: Confidential
>
> Social democratic countries have *MUCH* higher tax rates. Somebody has to pay 
> for all of those services.
> Social democratic countries have generally poorer medical care
>
> Everything has its pros and cons. You pays your money and takes your choice.
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Bill Johnson
> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:28 PM
> To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: I want to cry
>
> [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
> sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
> which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]
>
> Social democratic countries have much better quality of lives than America. 
> Very few would like pure capitalism. No social security, medicare, military, 
> police/fire, public schools, etc. Most people would be making very little to 
> benefit the wealthy. Unions fought for the benefits we all now take for 
> granted.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, February 3, 2023, 11:21 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:
>
>> The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The 
>> inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. Under 
>> capitalism man exploits his fellow man. Under socialism it's the other way 
>> around. CharlesSent from a mobile; please excuse the brevity.
>  Original message From: Bob Bridges  
> Date: 2/3/23  5:10 PM  (GMT-08:00) To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU  Subject: Re: 
> I want to cry I don't run in those circles enough.  I write in VBA and VBS a 
> lot, but I don't work in a shop where it's common.  But I was a COBOL 
> developer for 15 years and I knew coworkers who know COBOL and nothing 
> else.---Bob Bridges,robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313/* The inherent 
> vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The inherent virtue 
> of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.  -Churchill */-Original 
> Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of John McKownSent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:13Or Visual Basic.--- 
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2023, 12:10 Bob Bridges  wrote:> It is 
> a little distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how > many 
> "programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.>> -Original 
> Message-> From: zMan> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50>> And unless 
> COBOL is the only programming language you've ever seen, it > seems unlikely 
> that you wouldn't know what a variable 
> is.--For 
> IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,send email 
> tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with t

Re: I want to cry

[Carmen Vitullo]

checking my trash folder, the best place to find your responses, my 
question to "


I didn’t start the off topic discussion but I’m not going to let bullsh*t go 
unchallenged."
*is WHY? *
why do you feel you HAVE TO?
bully?
who cares
go back to your political forum where you can bully people there
- don't bother responding, I will not spend the time sorting thru my trash for 
any response
Carmen

On 2/6/2023 8:47 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:

I didn’t start the off topic discussion but I’m not going to let bullsh*t go 
unchallenged.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 9:35 AM, Lionel B. Dyck  wrote:

It is time to remember that this is a technical forum.


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website:https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github:https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”  - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 8:30 AM
To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

The World Health Organization rates the US health care system 37th in the 
world. France is rated number 1. The US health care system isn’t even close to 
being better than most. And those social democratic countries get better health 
care for half the costs. I’m also all for higher taxes on corporations that 
currently pay no taxes yet make billions. Even Warren Buffett says taxes on the 
wealthy should be higher.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 7:45 AM, Allan 
Staller<0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>  wrote:

Classification: Confidential

Social democratic countries have *MUCH* higher tax rates. Somebody has to pay 
for all of those services.
Social democratic countries have generally poorer medical care

Everything has its pros and cons. You pays your money and takes your choice.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:28 PM
To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

Social democratic countries have much better quality of lives than America. 
Very few would like pure capitalism. No social security, medicare, military, 
police/fire, public schools, etc. Most people would be making very little to 
benefit the wealthy. Unions fought for the benefits we all now take for granted.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, February 3, 2023, 11:21 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:


The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The 
inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. Under capitalism 
man exploits his fellow man. Under socialism it's the other way around. 
CharlesSent from a mobile; please excuse the brevity.

 Original message From: Bob Bridges  Date: 2/3/23  5:10 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU  Subject: Re: I want to cry I don't run in those circles enough.  I write in VBA and VBS a lot, but I 
don't work in a shop where it's common.  But I was a COBOL developer for 15 years and I knew coworkers who know COBOL and nothing 
else.---Bob Bridges,robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313/* The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  
The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.  -Churchill */-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe 
Discussion List  On Behalf Of John McKownSent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:13Or Visual Basic.--- On 
Fri, Feb 3, 2023, 12:10 Bob Bridges  wrote:> It is a little distressing, though (at least to me), to 
observe how > many "programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.>> -Original Message-> From: 
zMan> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50>> And unless COBOL is the only programming language you've ever seen, it > 
seems unlikely that you wouldn't know what a variable is.--For 
IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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::DISCLAIMER::

The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and intended 
for the named recipien

Re: I want to cry

[Bill Johnson]

I didn’t start the off topic discussion but I’m not going to let bullsh*t go 
unchallenged.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 9:35 AM, Lionel B. Dyck  wrote:

It is time to remember that this is a technical forum.


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”  - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 8:30 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

The World Health Organization rates the US health care system 37th in the 
world. France is rated number 1. The US health care system isn’t even close to 
being better than most. And those social democratic countries get better health 
care for half the costs. I’m also all for higher taxes on corporations that 
currently pay no taxes yet make billions. Even Warren Buffett says taxes on the 
wealthy should be higher.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 7:45 AM, Allan Staller 
<0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Classification: Confidential

Social democratic countries have *MUCH* higher tax rates. Somebody has to pay 
for all of those services.
Social democratic countries have generally poorer medical care

Everything has its pros and cons. You pays your money and takes your choice.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

Social democratic countries have much better quality of lives than America. 
Very few would like pure capitalism. No social security, medicare, military, 
police/fire, public schools, etc. Most people would be making very little to 
benefit the wealthy. Unions fought for the benefits we all now take for granted.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, February 3, 2023, 11:21 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:

> The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The 
> inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. Under capitalism 
> man exploits his fellow man. Under socialism it's the other way around. 
> CharlesSent from a mobile; please excuse the brevity.
 Original message From: Bob Bridges  
Date: 2/3/23  5:10 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: I 
want to cry I don't run in those circles enough.  I write in VBA and VBS a lot, 
but I don't work in a shop where it's common.  But I was a COBOL developer for 
15 years and I knew coworkers who know COBOL and nothing else.---Bob Bridges, 
robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313/* The inherent vice of capitalism is 
the unequal sharing of blessings.  The inherent virtue of socialism is the 
equal sharing of misery.  -Churchill */-Original Message-From: IBM 
Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of John 
McKownSent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:13Or Visual Basic.--- On Fri, Feb 3, 
2023, 12:10 Bob Bridges  wrote:> It is a little 
distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how > many "programmers" never 
~have~ seen anything but COBOL.>> -Original Message-> From: zMan> Sent: 
Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50>> And unless COBOL is the only programming 
language you've ever seen, it > seems unlikely that you wouldn't know what a 
variable 
is.--For 
IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: I want to cry

[Bill Johnson]

The US is 50th in infant mortality. Hardly great health care. 

The mortality rate in the United States was 5.44 in 2020. This rate was 50th 
among the 195 countries and territories measured, and significantly higher than 
in dozens of other developed countries such as Sweden (2.15), Japan (1.82), and 
Australia(3.14).


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 7:45 AM, Allan Staller 
<0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Classification: Confidential

Social democratic countries have *MUCH* higher tax rates. Somebody has to pay 
for all of those services.
Social democratic countries have generally poorer medical care

Everything has its pros and cons. You pays your money and takes your choice.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

Social democratic countries have much better quality of lives than America. 
Very few would like pure capitalism. No social security, medicare, military, 
police/fire, public schools, etc. Most people would be making very little to 
benefit the wealthy. Unions fought for the benefits we all now take for granted.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, February 3, 2023, 11:21 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:

> The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The 
> inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. Under capitalism 
> man exploits his fellow man. Under socialism it's the other way around. 
> CharlesSent from a mobile; please excuse the brevity.
 Original message From: Bob Bridges  
Date: 2/3/23  5:10 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: I 
want to cry I don't run in those circles enough.  I write in VBA and VBS a lot, 
but I don't work in a shop where it's common.  But I was a COBOL developer for 
15 years and I knew coworkers who know COBOL and nothing else.---Bob Bridges, 
robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313/* The inherent vice of capitalism is 
the unequal sharing of blessings.  The inherent virtue of socialism is the 
equal sharing of misery.  -Churchill */-Original Message-From: IBM 
Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of John 
McKownSent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:13Or Visual Basic.--- On Fri, Feb 3, 
2023, 12:10 Bob Bridges  wrote:> It is a little 
distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how > many "programmers" never 
~have~ seen anything but COBOL.>> -Original Message-> From: zMan> Sent: 
Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50>> And unless COBOL is the only programming 
language you've ever seen, it > seems unlikely that you wouldn't know what a 
variable 
is.--For 
IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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::DISCLAIMER::

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The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore 
not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or 
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---

Re: I want to cry

[Lionel B. Dyck]

It is time to remember that this is a technical forum.


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 8:30 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

The World Health Organization rates the US health care system 37th in the 
world. France is rated number 1. The US health care system isn’t even close to 
being better than most. And those social democratic countries get better health 
care for half the costs. I’m also all for higher taxes on corporations that 
currently pay no taxes yet make billions. Even Warren Buffett says taxes on the 
wealthy should be higher.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 7:45 AM, Allan Staller 
<0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Classification: Confidential

Social democratic countries have *MUCH* higher tax rates. Somebody has to pay 
for all of those services.
Social democratic countries have generally poorer medical care

Everything has its pros and cons. You pays your money and takes your choice.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

Social democratic countries have much better quality of lives than America. 
Very few would like pure capitalism. No social security, medicare, military, 
police/fire, public schools, etc. Most people would be making very little to 
benefit the wealthy. Unions fought for the benefits we all now take for granted.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, February 3, 2023, 11:21 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:

> The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The 
> inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. Under capitalism 
> man exploits his fellow man. Under socialism it's the other way around. 
> CharlesSent from a mobile; please excuse the brevity.
 Original message From: Bob Bridges  
Date: 2/3/23  5:10 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: I 
want to cry I don't run in those circles enough.  I write in VBA and VBS a lot, 
but I don't work in a shop where it's common.  But I was a COBOL developer for 
15 years and I knew coworkers who know COBOL and nothing else.---Bob Bridges, 
robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313/* The inherent vice of capitalism is 
the unequal sharing of blessings.  The inherent virtue of socialism is the 
equal sharing of misery.  -Churchill */-Original Message-From: IBM 
Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of John 
McKownSent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:13Or Visual Basic.--- On Fri, Feb 3, 
2023, 12:10 Bob Bridges  wrote:> It is a little 
distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how > many "programmers" never 
~have~ seen anything but COBOL.>> -Original Message-> From: zMan> Sent: 
Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50>> And unless COBOL is the only programming 
language you've ever seen, it > seems unlikely that you wouldn't know what a 
variable 
is.--For 
IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore 
not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or 
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may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any 
form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, 
distributio

Re: I want to cry

[Bill Johnson]

The World Health Organization rates the US health care system 37th in the 
world. France is rated number 1. The US health care system isn’t even close to 
being better than most. And those social democratic countries get better health 
care for half the costs. I’m also all for higher taxes on corporations that 
currently pay no taxes yet make billions. Even Warren Buffett says taxes on the 
wealthy should be higher.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 6, 2023, 7:45 AM, Allan Staller 
<0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Classification: Confidential

Social democratic countries have *MUCH* higher tax rates. Somebody has to pay 
for all of those services.
Social democratic countries have generally poorer medical care

Everything has its pros and cons. You pays your money and takes your choice.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

Social democratic countries have much better quality of lives than America. 
Very few would like pure capitalism. No social security, medicare, military, 
police/fire, public schools, etc. Most people would be making very little to 
benefit the wealthy. Unions fought for the benefits we all now take for granted.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, February 3, 2023, 11:21 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:

> The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The 
> inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. Under capitalism 
> man exploits his fellow man. Under socialism it's the other way around. 
> CharlesSent from a mobile; please excuse the brevity.
 Original message From: Bob Bridges  
Date: 2/3/23  5:10 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: I 
want to cry I don't run in those circles enough.  I write in VBA and VBS a lot, 
but I don't work in a shop where it's common.  But I was a COBOL developer for 
15 years and I knew coworkers who know COBOL and nothing else.---Bob Bridges, 
robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313/* The inherent vice of capitalism is 
the unequal sharing of blessings.  The inherent virtue of socialism is the 
equal sharing of misery.  -Churchill */-Original Message-From: IBM 
Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of John 
McKownSent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:13Or Visual Basic.--- On Fri, Feb 3, 
2023, 12:10 Bob Bridges  wrote:> It is a little 
distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how > many "programmers" never 
~have~ seen anything but COBOL.>> -Original Message-> From: zMan> Sent: 
Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50>> And unless COBOL is the only programming 
language you've ever seen, it > seems unlikely that you wouldn't know what a 
variable 
is.--For 
IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore 
not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or 
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may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any 
form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, 
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immediately. Before opening any email and/or attachments, please check them for 
viruses and other defects.


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Re: I want to cry

[Allan Staller]

Classification: Confidential

Social democratic countries have *MUCH* higher tax rates. Somebody has to pay 
for all of those services.
Social democratic countries have generally poorer medical care

Everything has its pros and cons. You pays your money and takes your choice.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

Social democratic countries have much better quality of lives than America. 
Very few would like pure capitalism. No social security, medicare, military, 
police/fire, public schools, etc. Most people would be making very little to 
benefit the wealthy. Unions fought for the benefits we all now take for granted.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, February 3, 2023, 11:21 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:

> The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The 
> inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. Under capitalism 
> man exploits his fellow man. Under socialism it's the other way around. 
> CharlesSent from a mobile; please excuse the brevity.
 Original message From: Bob Bridges  
Date: 2/3/23  5:10 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: I 
want to cry I don't run in those circles enough.  I write in VBA and VBS a lot, 
but I don't work in a shop where it's common.  But I was a COBOL developer for 
15 years and I knew coworkers who know COBOL and nothing else.---Bob Bridges, 
robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313/* The inherent vice of capitalism is 
the unequal sharing of blessings.  The inherent virtue of socialism is the 
equal sharing of misery.  -Churchill */-Original Message-From: IBM 
Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of John 
McKownSent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:13Or Visual Basic.--- On Fri, Feb 3, 
2023, 12:10 Bob Bridges  wrote:> It is a little 
distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how > many "programmers" never 
~have~ seen anything but COBOL.>> -Original Message-> From: zMan> Sent: 
Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50>> And unless COBOL is the only programming 
language you've ever seen, it > seems unlikely that you wouldn't know what a 
variable 
is.--For 
IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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::DISCLAIMER::

The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and intended 
for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not guaranteed to be 
secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, 
destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses in transmission. 
The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore 
not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or 
opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely those of the author and 
may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any 
form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, 
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consent of authorized representative of HCL is strictly prohibited. If you have 
received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender 
immediately. Before opening any email and/or attachments, please check them for 
viruses and other defects.


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Re: I want to cry

[Tony Thigpen]

Most non-Cobol programmers, or even that have not been exposed to shops 
that can use the language as it was intended, think Cobol is a 
simplistic language.


I was lucky and spent several years in a shop that really knew how to 
sling Cobol code. And, before you say it must have been unreadable, that 
is not the case.


This shop was a banking software vendor that was supplied to the 
customers in Cobol. This was back in the late 80's, so no internet to 
look at code at night. The rule was that you had to be able to debug 2am 
problems so code could not be too complex.


There was *heavy* use of common copybooks, such as date routines, etc. 
Psedu-OO before OO.


This was my third job and I learned a lot.

Now, I write 99% in assembler, but many of the techniques I use are 
based on what I learned about 'programming' at that shop.


But, it did make me aware of what good programmers were like. In almost 
every shop I have been at, it would take 2 or 3 programmers to do what 
just one programmer did at that vendor.


I have truly seen 'unicorn' Cobol programmers, so I know they do exist.

Tony Thigpen

Bob Bridges wrote on 2/5/23 19:30:

Well, obviously, because I'm not that way and I don't think anyone else should 
be either, duh!

Seriously, I guess you have a point.  If someone wants to do just one thing, it 
has to be his choice.  Sounds dull, though, and also less marketable, and less 
valuable to our customers.  But if I want to be self-serving about it, I guess 
it makes the rest of us the more valuable.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I don't want yes men around me.  I want everyone to tell the truth, even if 
it costs them their jobs.  -Samuel Goldwyn */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Tony Thigpen
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2023 18:28

Ok, so exactly why is that a problem?

--- Bob Bridges wrote on 2/3/23 13:09:

It is a little distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how many 
"programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.


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Re: I want to cry

[Steve Smith]

Well, Dijkstra [in]famously said “The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its
teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense.”

That aside, the real problem is programmers who have no grasp of the
fundamentals of programming.  IT is about where medicine was in the middle
ages, when barbers did surgery on the side, and blood-letting and
witchcraft were about the best you could do about disease.`

sas


On Sun, Feb 5, 2023 at 6:28 PM Tony Thigpen  wrote:

> Ok, so exactly why is that a problem?
>
> Tony Thigpen
>
>

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Re: I want to cry

[Bob Bridges]

Well, obviously, because I'm not that way and I don't think anyone else should 
be either, duh!

Seriously, I guess you have a point.  If someone wants to do just one thing, it 
has to be his choice.  Sounds dull, though, and also less marketable, and less 
valuable to our customers.  But if I want to be self-serving about it, I guess 
it makes the rest of us the more valuable.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I don't want yes men around me.  I want everyone to tell the truth, even if 
it costs them their jobs.  -Samuel Goldwyn */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Tony Thigpen
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2023 18:28

Ok, so exactly why is that a problem?

--- Bob Bridges wrote on 2/3/23 13:09:
> It is a little distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how many 
> "programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.

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Re: I want to cry

[Charles Mills]

When doing support I once asked the guy on the other end of the phone some 
gentle question about his possibly having read the manual. His reply

"Oh, I don't have any of the manuals. Fred has all of the manuals. He's in 
charge of the documentation. I'm just in charge of installing the product."

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Dean Kent
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2023 2:33 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

OK - real story.   Working as an L2 support tech for a well known 
software company.  New release of the product required a new SVC because 
an area in the F1 DSCB that was previously unused by IBM was now being 
used - so that critical bit of data had to be moved to a new unused 
area.   The manual for the new release had a note, in bold type, at the 
bottom of the instruction page discussing the SVC install that indicated 
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Re: I want to cry

[Tony Thigpen]

Ok, so exactly why is that a problem?

Tony Thigpen

Bob Bridges wrote on 2/3/23 13:09:

It is a little distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how many 
"programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* How agitated I am when I am in the garden, and how happy I am to be so 
agitated.  Nothing works just the way I thought it would, nothing looks just 
the way I had imagined it, and when sometimes it does look like what I had 
imagined (and this, thank God, is rare) I am startled that my imagination is so 
ordinary.  -Jamaica Kincaid, _My Garden Book_ */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of zMan
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50

And unless COBOL is the only programming language you've ever seen, it seems 
unlikely that you wouldn't know what a variable is.

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Re: I want to cry

[Bob Bridges]

Here's one that still causes me mild amazement:  Why do programmers confuse
Halloween and Christmas?  Because Oct 31 is Dec 25.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Vague and insignificant forms of speech, and abuse of language, have so
long passed for mysteries of science; and hard and misapplied words, with
little or no meaning, have, by prescription, such a right to be mistaken for
deep learning and height of speculation, that it will not be easy to
persuade either those who speak or those who hear them, that they are but
the covers of ignorance, and hindrance of true knowledge.  -John Locke, _An
Essay Concerning Human Understanding_ (1690) */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2023 01:52

Real programmers do it in octal. Silly wabbit, trits are for kids.

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Re: I want to cry

[Dean Kent]

OK - real story.   Working as an L2 support tech for a well known 
software company.  New release of the product required a new SVC because 
an area in the F1 DSCB that was previously unused by IBM was now being 
used - so that critical bit of data had to be moved to a new unused 
area.   The manual for the new release had a note, in bold type, at the 
bottom of the instruction page discussing the SVC install that indicated 
existing users must perform the conversion to move the data in that 
field and make sure to NOT use the old SVC.


Customer calls angry because he is experiencing all kinds of problems 
after installing the new release.  One of the other techs received the 
call, but very soon handed it to me because he said he was at his wits 
end.   After a bit of diagnosis, I tell him he is running the old SVC 
and he has corrupted his F1 DSCBs.   He gets angry and starts yelling 
about there not being any warnings and that he is going to sue the 
company.   I tell him the page it is on, and his reply was "Well, it 
wasn't on the page *I* was reading!".


I walked him through recovering all of his data and making sure the 
installation was done correctly.   3 straight days on the phone for a 
full 8 hours.  The first two days he did nothing but complain, grumble, 
make accusations, etc.   In the end everything was just fine, and he was 
very nice, and he thanked me profusely for helping him out.    In our 
last chat he said "I want to apologize for my behavior when I initially 
called.   I had just turned 40 that day".    What I didn't say, but 
wanted to was "So you are saying that when you were 39 you weren't an 
asshole".


I'm sure he was panicking and probably thought it would cost him his 
job.  But it was a stressful 3 days for both of us.


I have other stories, as I'm sure others doing tech support have.    
Some even better than this one...


On 2/5/2023 1:58 PM, Leonard D Woren wrote:

You could ask if the customer still has the box that the product came in.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/word-imperfect/

/Leonard

Hank Oerlemans wrote on 2/2/2023 7:28 PM:

Customer : Could you please have a look and help us to fix the issue .
Customer log :  IEA992I SLIP TRAP ID=S047 MATCHED.

ME :
1. Hire a sysprog
2. RTFM
3. Google Play and hit update
4. Apple store and hit update
5. Check calendar and mortgage and see when I can retire
6. Tears welling up realising I can't actually say any of 1-4.

.

It's slow today down under.

haveagoodweegend.

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Re: I want to cry

[Leonard D Woren]

You could ask if the customer still has the box that the product came in.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/word-imperfect/

/Leonard

Hank Oerlemans wrote on 2/2/2023 7:28 PM:

Customer : Could you please have a look and help us to fix the issue .
Customer log :  IEA992I SLIP TRAP ID=S047 MATCHED.

ME :
1. Hire a sysprog
2. RTFM
3. Google Play and hit update
4. Apple store and hit update
5. Check calendar and mortgage and see when I can retire
6. Tears welling up realising I can't actually say any of 1-4.

.

It's slow today down under.

haveagoodweegend.

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Re: I want to cry

[Charles Mills]

Customer: "You gotta help us with this problem. It's happening all the time. 
It's killing us."
Me: "Turn on these diagnostic options, run it again, and send us the output."
Customer: "Well, gee, it's really hard to duplicate ..."

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Art Gutowski
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2023 1:03 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 20:15:21 -0500, Bob Bridges  wrote:

>[...]

>When nearly an hour had passed, the phone rang again:
>
>Customer:  I need a new power supply.
>
>Technician:  How did you come to that conclusion?
>
>Customer:  Well, I called Microsoft and told the technician what you said, and 
>he started asking me questions about the make of the power supply.
>
>Technician:  What did he tell you?
>
>Customer:  He said my power supply isn't compatible with NOSMOKE.

Well done!  That has got to be the most creative, tag-team problem solving 
effort I've read.  The attention to detail...  I am in tears (of laughter).

Art Gutowski

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Re: I want to cry

[Art Gutowski]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 20:15:21 -0500, Bob Bridges  wrote:

>[...]

>When nearly an hour had passed, the phone rang again:
>
>Customer:  I need a new power supply.
>
>Technician:  How did you come to that conclusion?
>
>Customer:  Well, I called Microsoft and told the technician what you said, and 
>he started asking me questions about the make of the power supply.
>
>Technician:  What did he tell you?
>
>Customer:  He said my power supply isn't compatible with NOSMOKE.

Well done!  That has got to be the most creative, tag-team problem solving 
effort I've read.  The attention to detail...  I am in tears (of laughter).

Art Gutowski

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Re: I want to cry

[Seymour J Metz]

I hold firmly to the idea that students should be exposed to a variety of very 
different languages, and that students of assembler should be exposed to a 
variety of hardware architectures.

Real programmers do it in octal. Silly wabbit, trits are for kids.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 5:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

At the risk of being contrarian relative to the culture of this group, how is 
that inherently worse than some programmers have never seen anything but 
Assembler -- 360/370/390/Z assembler at that?

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Bob Bridges
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

It is a little distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how many 
"programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* How agitated I am when I am in the garden, and how happy I am to be so 
agitated.  Nothing works just the way I thought it would, nothing looks just 
the way I had imagined it, and when sometimes it does look like what I had 
imagined (and this, thank God, is rare) I am startled that my imagination is so 
ordinary.  -Jamaica Kincaid, _My Garden Book_ */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of zMan
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50

And unless COBOL is the only programming language you've ever seen, it seems 
unlikely that you wouldn't know what a variable is.

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Re: I want to cry

[Seymour J Metz]

I've certainly seen that for other languages, but I don't recall seeing it for 
COBOL.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 3:53 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 15:43:04 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>The name of ther song is called Haddock Eyes. Data names are variable names; 
>the fields holding the data are variables. In fact, the manual uses the term 
>"condition variable".
>
"Identifier"?

--
gil

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Re: I want to cry

[Seymour J Metz]

Adam Smith believed that a free market was impossible without government 
intervention to prevent monopolies.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 11:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

Social democratic countries have much better quality of lives than America. 
Very few would like pure capitalism. No social security, medicare, military, 
police/fire, public schools, etc. Most people would be making very little to 
benefit the wealthy. Unions fought for the benefits we all now take for granted.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, February 3, 2023, 11:21 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:

> The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The 
> inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. Under capitalism 
> man exploits his fellow man. Under socialism it's the other way around. 
> CharlesSent from a mobile; please excuse the brevity.
 Original message From: Bob Bridges  
Date: 2/3/23  5:10 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: I 
want to cry I don't run in those circles enough.  I write in VBA and VBS a lot, 
but I don't work in a shop where it's common.  But I was a COBOL developer for 
15 years and I knew coworkers who know COBOL and nothing else.---Bob Bridges, 
robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313/* The inherent vice of capitalism is 
the unequal sharing of blessings.  The inherent virtue of socialism is the 
equal sharing of misery.  -Churchill */-Original Message-From: IBM 
Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of John 
McKownSent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:13Or Visual Basic.--- On Fri, Feb 3, 
2023, 12:10 Bob Bridges  wrote:> It is a little 
distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how > many "programmers" never 
~have~ seen anything but COBOL.>> -Original Message-> From: zMan> Sent: 
Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50>> And unless COBOL is the only programming 
language you've ever seen, it > seems unlikely that you wouldn't know what a 
variable 
is.--For 
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Re: I want to cry

[Bill Johnson]

Social democratic countries have much better quality of lives than America. 
Very few would like pure capitalism. No social security, medicare, military, 
police/fire, public schools, etc. Most people would be making very little to 
benefit the wealthy. Unions fought for the benefits we all now take for granted.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, February 3, 2023, 11:21 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:

> The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The 
> inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. Under capitalism 
> man exploits his fellow man. Under socialism it's the other way around. 
> CharlesSent from a mobile; please excuse the brevity.
 Original message From: Bob Bridges  
Date: 2/3/23  5:10 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: I 
want to cry I don't run in those circles enough.  I write in VBA and VBS a lot, 
but I don't work in a shop where it's common.  But I was a COBOL developer for 
15 years and I knew coworkers who know COBOL and nothing else.---Bob Bridges, 
robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313/* The inherent vice of capitalism is 
the unequal sharing of blessings.  The inherent virtue of socialism is the 
equal sharing of misery.  -Churchill */-Original Message-From: IBM 
Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of John 
McKownSent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:13Or Visual Basic.--- On Fri, Feb 3, 
2023, 12:10 Bob Bridges  wrote:> It is a little 
distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how > many "programmers" never 
~have~ seen anything but COBOL.>> -Original Message-> From: zMan> Sent: 
Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50>> And unless COBOL is the only programming 
language you've ever seen, it > seems unlikely that you wouldn't know what a 
variable 
is.--For 
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Re: I want to cry

[Charles Mills]

> The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The 
> inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. Under capitalism 
> man exploits his fellow man. Under socialism it's the other way around. 
> CharlesSent from a mobile; please excuse the brevity.
 Original message From: Bob Bridges  
Date: 2/3/23  5:10 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: I 
want to cry I don't run in those circles enough.  I write in VBA and VBS a lot, 
but I don't work in a shop where it's common.  But I was a COBOL developer for 
15 years and I knew coworkers who know COBOL and nothing else.---Bob Bridges, 
robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313/* The inherent vice of capitalism is 
the unequal sharing of blessings.  The inherent virtue of socialism is the 
equal sharing of misery.  -Churchill */-Original Message-From: IBM 
Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of John 
McKownSent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:13Or Visual Basic.--- On Fri, Feb 3, 
2023, 12:10 Bob Bridges  wrote:> It is a little 
distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how > many "programmers" never 
~have~ seen anything but COBOL.>> -Original Message-> From: zMan> Sent: 
Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50>> And unless COBOL is the only programming 
language you've ever seen, it > seems unlikely that you wouldn't know what a 
variable 
is.--For 
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Re: I want to cry

[Bob Bridges]

Boy, and how!  Not a computer issue, but I remember the first winter my wife 
and I had in our first apartment.  We woke up suddenly in the middle of the 
night smelling something burning, and ran frantically around the apartment 
looking for the fire.

I no longer panic at that smell at the onset of winter; dust builds up during 
the warm months and gives that smell you're talking about when the furnace 
first comes on during cold weather.  But it sure got my adrenaline going that 
first time.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The main thing we learn from a serious attempt to practise the Christian 
virtues is that we fail.  If there was any idea that God had set us a sort of 
exam and that we might get good marks by deserving them, that has to be wiped 
out.  If there was any idea of a sort of bargain -- any idea that we could 
perform our side of the contract and thus put God in our debts so that it was 
up to Him, in mere justice, to perform his side -- that has to be wiped out.  
-C S Lewis, "Christian Behavior" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Schwab
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 20:20

Actually, if just a burning smell, might be a lot of dust inside the computer.

--- On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 7:15 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
> Technician:  Hello.  How can I help you today?
>
> Customer:  There's smoke coming from the power supply on my computer.
>
> Technician:  Looks like you need a new power supply.
>
> Customer:  No, I don't!  I just need to change the startup files.
>
> Technician:  Sir, what you described is a faulty power supply.  You need to 
> replace it.
>
> Customer:  No way!  Someone told me that I just had to change the system 
> startup files to fix the problem!  All I need is for you to tell me the right 
> command.
>
> For the next ten minutes, in spite of the technician's efforts to explain the 
> problem and its solution, the customer adamantly insisted that he was right.  
> So, in frustration, the technician responded:
>
> Technician:  I'm sorry.  We don't normally tell our customers this, but 
> there's an undocumented DOS command that will fix the problem.
>
> Customer:  I knew it!
>
> Technician:  Just add the line "LOAD NOSMOKE.COM" at the end of the 
> CONFIG.SYS file and everything should work fine.  Let me know how it goes.
>
> About ten minutes later, the technician received a call back from the 
> customer:
>
> Customer:  It didn't work.  The power supply is still smoking.
>
> Technician:  Well, what version of DOS are you using?
>
> Customer:  MS-DOS 6.22...
>
> Technician:  Well, that's your problem.  That version of DOS doesn't include 
> NOSMOKE.  You'll need to contact Microsoft and ask them for a patch.  Let me 
> know how it all works out.
>
> When nearly an hour had passed, the phone rang again:
>
> Customer:  I need a new power supply.
>
> Technician:  How did you come to that conclusion?
>
> Customer:  Well, I called Microsoft and told the technician what you said, 
> and he started asking me questions about the make of the power supply.
>
> Technician:  What did he tell you?
>
> Customer:  He said my power supply isn't compatible with NOSMOKE.

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Re: I want to cry

[Mike Schwab]

Actually, if just a burning smell, might be a lot of dust inside the computer.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 7:15 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> LOL!  I had a customer whom I repeatedly nagged about error messages.  One 
> day he called and said my program "didn't work".  What did it do?, I asked.  
> No, don't tell me "nothing"; there must have been an error message; what did 
> it say?
>
> "Oh, it said some damn thing", he grumbled.  I'm pretty sure he was laughing 
> at himself as he said it, because this was an old quarrel between us.
>
> Here's one I archived back in 1998:
>
> Technician:  Hello.  How can I help you today?
>
> Customer:  There's smoke coming from the power supply on my computer.
>
> Technician:  Looks like you need a new power supply.
>
> Customer:  No, I don't!  I just need to change the startup files.
>
> Technician:  Sir, what you described is a faulty power supply.  You need to 
> replace it.
>
> Customer:  No way!  Someone told me that I just had to change the system 
> startup files to fix the problem!  All I need is for you to tell me the right 
> command.
>
> For the next ten minutes, in spite of the technician's efforts to explain the 
> problem and its solution, the customer adamantly insisted that he was right.  
> So, in frustration, the technician responded:
>
> Technician:  I'm sorry.  We don't normally tell our customers this, but 
> there's an undocumented DOS command that will fix the problem.
>
> Customer:  I knew it!
>
> Technician:  Just add the line "LOAD NOSMOKE.COM" at the end of the 
> CONFIG.SYS file and everything should work fine.  Let me know how it goes.
>
> About ten minutes later, the technician received a call back from the 
> customer:
>
> Customer:  It didn't work.  The power supply is still smoking.
>
> Technician:  Well, what version of DOS are you using?
>
> Customer:  MS-DOS 6.22...
>
> Technician:  Well, that's your problem.  That version of DOS doesn't include 
> NOSMOKE.  You'll need to contact Microsoft and ask them for a patch.  Let me 
> know how it all works out.
>
> When nearly an hour had passed, the phone rang again:
>
> Customer:  I need a new power supply.
>
> Technician:  How did you come to that conclusion?
>
> Customer:  Well, I called Microsoft and told the technician what you said, 
> and he started asking me questions about the make of the power supply.
>
> Technician:  What did he tell you?
>
> Customer:  He said my power supply isn't compatible with NOSMOKE.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* In America, anyone can be President.  That's one of the risks you take. */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Charles Mills
> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:18
>
> How about this one?
>
> Customer on phone: Your product blew up.
> Me: Oh, very sorry, what was the error message?
> Customer: I don't know. We already deleted the SYSOUT. Something about an 
> error occurred.
>
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: I want to cry

[Bob Bridges]

LOL!  I had a customer whom I repeatedly nagged about error messages.  One day 
he called and said my program "didn't work".  What did it do?, I asked.  No, 
don't tell me "nothing"; there must have been an error message; what did it say?

"Oh, it said some damn thing", he grumbled.  I'm pretty sure he was laughing at 
himself as he said it, because this was an old quarrel between us.

Here's one I archived back in 1998:

Technician:  Hello.  How can I help you today?

Customer:  There's smoke coming from the power supply on my computer.

Technician:  Looks like you need a new power supply.

Customer:  No, I don't!  I just need to change the startup files.

Technician:  Sir, what you described is a faulty power supply.  You need to 
replace it.

Customer:  No way!  Someone told me that I just had to change the system 
startup files to fix the problem!  All I need is for you to tell me the right 
command.

For the next ten minutes, in spite of the technician's efforts to explain the 
problem and its solution, the customer adamantly insisted that he was right.  
So, in frustration, the technician responded:

Technician:  I'm sorry.  We don't normally tell our customers this, but there's 
an undocumented DOS command that will fix the problem.

Customer:  I knew it!

Technician:  Just add the line "LOAD NOSMOKE.COM" at the end of the CONFIG.SYS 
file and everything should work fine.  Let me know how it goes.

About ten minutes later, the technician received a call back from the customer:

Customer:  It didn't work.  The power supply is still smoking.

Technician:  Well, what version of DOS are you using?

Customer:  MS-DOS 6.22...

Technician:  Well, that's your problem.  That version of DOS doesn't include 
NOSMOKE.  You'll need to contact Microsoft and ask them for a patch.  Let me 
know how it all works out.

When nearly an hour had passed, the phone rang again:

Customer:  I need a new power supply.

Technician:  How did you come to that conclusion?

Customer:  Well, I called Microsoft and told the technician what you said, and 
he started asking me questions about the make of the power supply.

Technician:  What did he tell you?

Customer:  He said my power supply isn't compatible with NOSMOKE.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* In America, anyone can be President.  That's one of the risks you take. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Charles Mills
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:18

How about this one?

Customer on phone: Your product blew up.
Me: Oh, very sorry, what was the error message?
Customer: I don't know. We already deleted the SYSOUT. Something about an error 
occurred.

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Re: I want to cry

[Bob Bridges]

I don't run in those circles enough.  I write in VBA and VBS a lot, but I don't 
work in a shop where it's common.  But I was a COBOL developer for 15 years and 
I knew coworkers who know COBOL and nothing else.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.  The 
inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.  -Churchill */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
John McKown
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 17:13

Or Visual Basic.

--- On Fri, Feb 3, 2023, 12:10 Bob Bridges  wrote:
> It is a little distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how 
> many "programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: zMan
> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50
>
> And unless COBOL is the only programming language you've ever seen, it 
> seems unlikely that you wouldn't know what a variable is.

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Re: I want to cry

[Charles Mills]

At the risk of being contrarian relative to the culture of this group, how is 
that inherently worse than some programmers have never seen anything but 
Assembler -- 360/370/390/Z assembler at that?

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Bob Bridges
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

It is a little distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how many 
"programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* How agitated I am when I am in the garden, and how happy I am to be so 
agitated.  Nothing works just the way I thought it would, nothing looks just 
the way I had imagined it, and when sometimes it does look like what I had 
imagined (and this, thank God, is rare) I am startled that my imagination is so 
ordinary.  -Jamaica Kincaid, _My Garden Book_ */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of zMan
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50

And unless COBOL is the only programming language you've ever seen, it seems 
unlikely that you wouldn't know what a variable is.

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Re: I want to cry

[Charles Mills]

How about this one?

Customer on phone: Your product blew up.
Me: Oh, very sorry, what was the error message?
Customer: I don't know. We already deleted the SYSOUT. Something about an error 
occurred.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Bob Bridges
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

It is a little distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how many 
"programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* How agitated I am when I am in the garden, and how happy I am to be so 
agitated.  Nothing works just the way I thought it would, nothing looks just 
the way I had imagined it, and when sometimes it does look like what I had 
imagined (and this, thank God, is rare) I am startled that my imagination is so 
ordinary.  -Jamaica Kincaid, _My Garden Book_ */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of zMan
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50

And unless COBOL is the only programming language you've ever seen, it seems 
unlikely that you wouldn't know what a variable is.

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Re: I want to cry

[John McKown]

Or Visual Basic.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2023, 12:10 Bob Bridges  wrote:

> It is a little distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how many
> "programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* How agitated I am when I am in the garden, and how happy I am to be so
> agitated.  Nothing works just the way I thought it would, nothing looks
> just the way I had imagined it, and when sometimes it does look like what I
> had imagined (and this, thank God, is rare) I am startled that my
> imagination is so ordinary.  -Jamaica Kincaid, _My Garden Book_ */
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of zMan
> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50
>
> And unless COBOL is the only programming language you've ever seen, it
> seems unlikely that you wouldn't know what a variable is.
>
> --
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Re: I want to cry

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 15:43:04 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>The name of ther song is called Haddock Eyes. Data names are variable names; 
>the fields holding the data are variables. In fact, the manual uses the term 
>"condition variable".
>
"Identifier"?

-- 
gil

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Re: I want to cry

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

W dniu 03.02.2023 o 16:38, Paul Gorlinsky pisze:

Never let and new operator go and practice IPLing the machine…

Yes it has happened to a production environment at UNM…


Well, I did it.
Some auditor asked about procedures. The procedures were in Polish, but 
he was English-speaking.

So he wanted operator to shutdown and IPL some system (non-production one).
It was quite new person hired one week ago. Yes, one week.
And he did it.
The operator did not understand that I was assessed, not him.
BTW: Now he's a sysprog and we're friend. :-)


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: I want to cry

[Bill Johnson]

This is part of the same “Mainframe is dead” BS.


New research on the global scale of the COBOL programming language suggests 
that there are upwards of 800 billion lines of COBOL code being used by 
organizations and institutes worldwide, some three times larger than previously 
estimated.

A global study with 1,104 respondents from 49 countries found that more than 
nine in 10 organizations continue to view COBOL as a strategic priority. It 
also found that 83% of organizations believe their COBOL-based applications 
will see out another 10 or more years.

Prior estimates were in the 200-220 billion lines.




https://www.zdnet.com/google-amp/article/programming-languages-how-much-cobol-code-is-out-there-the-answer-might-surprise-you/




While other languages come and go. I have coworkers who believed language xxx 
was going to replace COBOL. Never happened. Fill in the xxx with dozens of 
languages over the years.







Bill J




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, February 3, 2023, 1:10 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:

It is a little distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how many 
"programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* How agitated I am when I am in the garden, and how happy I am to be so 
agitated.  Nothing works just the way I thought it would, nothing looks just 
the way I had imagined it, and when sometimes it does look like what I had 
imagined (and this, thank God, is rare) I am startled that my imagination is so 
ordinary.  -Jamaica Kincaid, _My Garden Book_ */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of zMan
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50

And unless COBOL is the only programming language you've ever seen, it seems 
unlikely that you wouldn't know what a variable is.

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Re: I want to cry

[Bob Bridges]

It is a little distressing, though (at least to me), to observe how many 
"programmers" never ~have~ seen anything but COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* How agitated I am when I am in the garden, and how happy I am to be so 
agitated.  Nothing works just the way I thought it would, nothing looks just 
the way I had imagined it, and when sometimes it does look like what I had 
imagined (and this, thank God, is rare) I am startled that my imagination is so 
ordinary.  -Jamaica Kincaid, _My Garden Book_ */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of zMan
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:50

And unless COBOL is the only programming language you've ever seen, it seems 
unlikely that you wouldn't know what a variable is.

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Re: I want to cry

[zMan]

TBH I had wondered about a terminology difference, but the fact that nobody
else jumped in convinced me that I wasn't the only one going "Wow".

And unless COBOL is the only programming language you've ever seen, it
seems unlikely that you wouldn't know what a variable is.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 10:11 AM Hobart Spitz  wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 9:00 AM zMan  wrote:
>
> > O my.
> >
> > I was on a call with a bunch of customers a few years ago. One of them
> was
> > having a very basic problem with a COBOL program calling our product. I
> > explained that they needed to put the name of  into a variable
> > that gets passed as the first parameter. Silence, then..."What's a
> > variable?"
> >
> > COBOL, and its programmers, use the term "data name", almost exclusively,
> instead of the term "variables".  Why?  Because "data name" includes file
> definitions, structures, 77 levels, 88 levels, etc., none of which are
> variables.
>
> Just because we know a lot of things that few others know, doesn't mean
> that others don't know what they are talking about..
>
> --
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-- 
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

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Re: I want to cry

[Seymour J Metz]

The name of ther song is called Haddock Eyes. Data names are variable names; 
the fields holding the data are variables. In fact, the manual uses the term 
"condition variable".

In the process of confirming this, I saw the syntax of UTF-8 literals. I had to 
rinse out my eyes.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Hobart Spitz [orexx...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 9:00 AM zMan  wrote:

> O my.
>
> I was on a call with a bunch of customers a few years ago. One of them was
> having a very basic problem with a COBOL program calling our product. I
> explained that they needed to put the name of  into a variable
> that gets passed as the first parameter. Silence, then..."What's a
> variable?"
>
> COBOL, and its programmers, use the term "data name", almost exclusively,
instead of the term "variables".  Why?  Because "data name" includes file
definitions, structures, 77 levels, 88 levels, etc., none of which are
variables.

Just because we know a lot of things that few others know, doesn't mean
that others don't know what they are talking about..

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Re: I want to cry

[Paul Gorlinsky]

Never let and new operator go and practice IPLing the machine…

Yes it has happened to a production environment at UNM…

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Re: I want to cry

[Hobart Spitz]

On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 9:00 AM zMan  wrote:

> O my.
>
> I was on a call with a bunch of customers a few years ago. One of them was
> having a very basic problem with a COBOL program calling our product. I
> explained that they needed to put the name of  into a variable
> that gets passed as the first parameter. Silence, then..."What's a
> variable?"
>
> COBOL, and its programmers, use the term "data name", almost exclusively,
instead of the term "variables".  Why?  Because "data name" includes file
definitions, structures, 77 levels, 88 levels, etc., none of which are
variables.

Just because we know a lot of things that few others know, doesn't mean
that others don't know what they are talking about..

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Re: I want to cry

[Seymour J Metz]

I don't want to believe it, but, alas, I do :-(


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
zMan [zedgarhoo...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:00 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

O my.

I was on a call with a bunch of customers a few years ago. One of them was
having a very basic problem with a COBOL program calling our product. I
explained that they needed to put the name of  into a variable
that gets passed as the first parameter. Silence, then..."What's a
variable?"

On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 5:31 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> C: My COBOL program got 
> M: What's in Register 14
> C: But COBOL doesn't use registers
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Hank Oerlemans [03c4d8bf55f3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 10:28 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: I want to cry
>
> Customer : Could you please have a look and help us to fix the issue .
> Customer log :  IEA992I SLIP TRAP ID=S047 MATCHED.
>
> ME :
> 1. Hire a sysprog
> 2. RTFM
> 3. Google Play and hit update
> 4. Apple store and hit update
> 5. Check calendar and mortgage and see when I can retire
> 6. Tears welling up realising I can't actually say any of 1-4.
>
> .
>
> It's slow today down under.
>
> haveagoodweegend.
>
> --
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Re: I want to cry

[zMan]

O my.

I was on a call with a bunch of customers a few years ago. One of them was
having a very basic problem with a COBOL program calling our product. I
explained that they needed to put the name of  into a variable
that gets passed as the first parameter. Silence, then..."What's a
variable?"

On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 5:31 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> C: My COBOL program got 
> M: What's in Register 14
> C: But COBOL doesn't use registers
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Hank Oerlemans [03c4d8bf55f3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 10:28 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: I want to cry
>
> Customer : Could you please have a look and help us to fix the issue .
> Customer log :  IEA992I SLIP TRAP ID=S047 MATCHED.
>
> ME :
> 1. Hire a sysprog
> 2. RTFM
> 3. Google Play and hit update
> 4. Apple store and hit update
> 5. Check calendar and mortgage and see when I can retire
> 6. Tears welling up realising I can't actually say any of 1-4.
>
> .
>
> It's slow today down under.
>
> haveagoodweegend.
>
> --
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Re: I want to cry

[Seymour J Metz]

Pretend to not have  a copy of Systems Codes and ask them to read to you what 
the manual says and to tell you which part is unclear. Lather, rinse, repeat.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Tony Thigpen 
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 8:25 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

You guys do realize he does not need the answer? He knows the answer and
is complaining about a dumb customer that will not even look up the
error message.

Tony Thigpen

Shelia Chalk wrote on 2/3/23 08:17:
> The librarys In your steplib or joblib in a batch job, one of them is not apf 
> authorized.  Also, another place to check is your tso logon proc. Look for 
> the steplib, all of these must be apf authorized to make it work.
>
> Thanks
> Shelia Chalk
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Gibney, Dave
> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 10:56 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: I want to cry
>
> Part of the tears could be that a SLIP trap is not a terribly useful answer 
> to S047 
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
>> Behalf Of Retired Mainframer
>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2023 8:36 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: I want to cry
>>
>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
>>
>> Look in the System Codes manual.  047 means a program that is not
>> running "authorized" requested a service that only one that is running 
>> "authorized"
>> can access.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
>> Behalf Of Hank Oerlemans
>> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 7:28 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: I want to cry
>>
>> Customer : Could you please have a look and help us to fix the issue .
>> Customer log :  IEA992I SLIP TRAP ID=S047 MATCHED.
>>
>> ME :
>> 1. Hire a sysprog
>> 2. RTFM
>> 3. Google Play and hit update
>> 4. Apple store and hit update
>> 5. Check calendar and mortgage and see when I can retire 6. Tears
>> welling up realising I can't actually say any of 1-4.
>>
>> --
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Re: I want to cry

[Steve Smith]

Maybe they want him to cry some more.

sas

On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 8:26 AM Tony Thigpen  wrote:

> You guys do realize he does not need the answer? He knows the answer and
> is complaining about a dumb customer that will not even look up the
> error message.
>
> Tony Thigpen
>
>

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Re: I want to cry

[Tony Thigpen]

You guys do realize he does not need the answer? He knows the answer and 
is complaining about a dumb customer that will not even look up the 
error message.


Tony Thigpen

Shelia Chalk wrote on 2/3/23 08:17:

The librarys In your steplib or joblib in a batch job, one of them is not apf 
authorized.  Also, another place to check is your tso logon proc. Look for the 
steplib, all of these must be apf authorized to make it work.

Thanks
Shelia Chalk


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gibney, Dave
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 10:56 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

Part of the tears could be that a SLIP trap is not a terribly useful answer to 
S047 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
Behalf Of Retired Mainframer
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2023 8:36 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

Look in the System Codes manual.  047 means a program that is not
running "authorized" requested a service that only one that is running 
"authorized"
can access.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
Behalf Of Hank Oerlemans
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 7:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: I want to cry

Customer : Could you please have a look and help us to fix the issue .
Customer log :  IEA992I SLIP TRAP ID=S047 MATCHED.

ME :
1. Hire a sysprog
2. RTFM
3. Google Play and hit update
4. Apple store and hit update
5. Check calendar and mortgage and see when I can retire 6. Tears
welling up realising I can't actually say any of 1-4.

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Re: I want to cry

[Paul Gorlinsky]

Also note that libraries in the linklst are protected by extents, not by name… 
that is it you add members that ultimately extend the dataset, and you have 
issued your F LLA,REFRESH you can still get an abend if you are trying to use 
an authorized program that resides in the new extent.

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Re: I want to cry

[Shelia Chalk]

The librarys In your steplib or joblib in a batch job, one of them is not apf 
authorized.  Also, another place to check is your tso logon proc. Look for the 
steplib, all of these must be apf authorized to make it work.

Thanks
Shelia Chalk


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gibney, Dave
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 10:56 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: I want to cry

Part of the tears could be that a SLIP trap is not a terribly useful answer to 
S047 

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Retired Mainframer
> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2023 8:36 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: I want to cry
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> 
> Look in the System Codes manual.  047 means a program that is not 
> running "authorized" requested a service that only one that is running 
> "authorized"
> can access.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Hank Oerlemans
> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 7:28 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: I want to cry
> 
> Customer : Could you please have a look and help us to fix the issue .
> Customer log :  IEA992I SLIP TRAP ID=S047 MATCHED.
> 
> ME :
> 1. Hire a sysprog
> 2. RTFM
> 3. Google Play and hit update
> 4. Apple store and hit update
> 5. Check calendar and mortgage and see when I can retire 6. Tears 
> welling up realising I can't actually say any of 1-4.
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: I want to cry

[Seymour J Metz]

C: My COBOL program got 
M: What's in Register 14
C: But COBOL doesn't use registers


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Hank Oerlemans [03c4d8bf55f3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 10:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: I want to cry

Customer : Could you please have a look and help us to fix the issue .
Customer log :  IEA992I SLIP TRAP ID=S047 MATCHED.

ME :
1. Hire a sysprog
2. RTFM
3. Google Play and hit update
4. Apple store and hit update
5. Check calendar and mortgage and see when I can retire
6. Tears welling up realising I can't actually say any of 1-4.

.

It's slow today down under.

haveagoodweegend.

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Re: I want to cry

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

   Hush you bye, don’t you cry,
   Go to sleepy, little baby.
   when you wake,
   You shall have,
   all the pretty little horses.

   Blacks and Bays,
   dapples and grays,
   Coach and six a little horses.
   Hush-a-by, Don't you cry,
   Go to sleep, my little
   
baby.^




W dniu 03.02.2023 o 04:28, Hank Oerlemans pisze:

Customer : Could you please have a look and help us to fix the issue .
Customer log :  IEA992I SLIP TRAP ID=S047 MATCHED.

ME :
1. Hire a sysprog
2. RTFM
3. Google Play and hit update
4. Apple store and hit update
5. Check calendar and mortgage and see when I can retire
6. Tears welling up realising I can't actually say any of 1-4.

.

It's slow today down under.

haveagoodweegend.

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--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: I want to cry

[Gibney, Dave]

Part of the tears could be that a SLIP trap is not a terribly useful answer to 
S047 

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Retired Mainframer
> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2023 8:36 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: I want to cry
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> 
> Look in the System Codes manual.  047 means a program that is not running
> "authorized" requested a service that only one that is running "authorized"
> can access.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of
> Hank Oerlemans
> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 7:28 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: I want to cry
> 
> Customer : Could you please have a look and help us to fix the issue .
> Customer log :  IEA992I SLIP TRAP ID=S047 MATCHED.
> 
> ME :
> 1. Hire a sysprog
> 2. RTFM
> 3. Google Play and hit update
> 4. Apple store and hit update
> 5. Check calendar and mortgage and see when I can retire
> 6. Tears welling up realising I can't actually say any of 1-4.
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: I want to cry

[Retired Mainframer]

Look in the System Codes manual.  047 means a program that is not running 
"authorized" requested a service that only one that is running "authorized" 
can access.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Hank Oerlemans
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 7:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: I want to cry

Customer : Could you please have a look and help us to fix the issue .
Customer log :  IEA992I SLIP TRAP ID=S047 MATCHED.

ME :
1. Hire a sysprog
2. RTFM
3. Google Play and hit update
4. Apple store and hit update
5. Check calendar and mortgage and see when I can retire
6. Tears welling up realising I can't actually say any of 1-4.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN