On 18/06/13 21:08, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple
people come to thank me afterwards for making that point I don't
consider it pontificating.
sorry, just point it out, sometimes you said it right, but that does not
guarantee
On 18 jun 2013, at 18:54, Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net wrote:
As for the rest of the discussion - I'm sure there are things to be improved
in ICANN. I'd suggest though that some of the feedback might be better placed
in an ICANN discussion than on IETF list. And is not like there'd be
Hi Patrik,
At 23:25 18-06-2013, Patrik Fältström wrote:
I think this is the correct strategy, BUT, I see
as a very active participant in ICANN (chair of
SSAC) that work in ICANN could be easier if some
more technical standards where developed in
IETF, and moved forward along standards track,
On 19 jun 2013, at 10:59, SM s...@resistor.net wrote:
I'll highlight part of a comment from Steve Crocker:
(I sometimes have to explain to my colleagues at ICANN who have not had the
benefit of the IETF experience that let's send it over to the IETF doesn't
work. The IETF isn't a
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 2:13 AM, Aaron Yi DING yd...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
On 18/06/13 21:08, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple people
come to thank me afterwards for making that point I don't consider it
pontificating.
sorry,
So I was looking at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/WikiStart to check
the sdnssd BoF text, and was surprised to see a total of 15 proposed BoFs. That
seems to be something of a record?
That people are coming to the IETF with proposals to do work is probably a
healthy thing; it would
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the
IETF constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to
maintain control in their own hands. Peter is a member of the IETF
establishment so of course he sees no structural problem.
PSA's
On 19/06/13 14:44, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 2:13 AM, Aaron Yi DING yd...@cs.helsinki.fi
mailto:yd...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
On 18/06/13 21:08, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
When I make a statement at the microphone and then have multiple
people come to
Well, one of the BOFs is for 6Lo, which is meant to replace a WG (6LoWPAN) that
is closing.
So make that 14 potential new WGs, but it is still a large number indeed.
(Actually, not all BOF descriptions are entirely explicit about the desire to
have a new WG as an outcome...)
Grüße, Carsten
Tim,
was surprised to see a total of 15 proposed BoFs
That is a relatively big number. There is a very high attrition rate, however.
That people are coming to the IETF with proposals to do work is probably a
healthy thing; it would be more worrying if there were no BoFs proposed.
Indeed!
Given that this document was revved twice and had it's requested status
change during IETF last call in response to discussion criticism and new
contribution I am going to rerun the last call.
Thanks
joel
On 5/20/13 6:44 AM, The IESG wrote:
The IESG has received a request from an individual
On Jun 19, 2013, at 2:27 AM, Patrik Fältström p...@frobbit.se wrote:
And do not let me get started on EPP or Whois issues... ;-)
Actually, let's let you get started. :-)
Part of the problem you are seeing with the lack of RFCs desired by ICANN is
that it is now harder to get an individual
On 6/18/2013 7:23 PM, Arturo Servin wrote:
We created an IETF-TF in LACNOG;
Arturo,
Many thanks for the summary of efforts within the region; they sound
quite promising.
Just to be clear, my question was specifically concerning the activity
of the IAOC that Jari cited.
That effort
On 6/19/2013 5:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF
constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to maintain
control in their own hands. Peter is a member of the IETF establishment
so of course
On 6/19/13 8:32 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:
On 6/19/2013 5:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF
constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to maintain
control in their own hands. Peter is a
On 6/19/2013 8:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 8:32 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:
On 6/19/2013 5:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF
constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to
On 6/19/13 6:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF
constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to maintain
control in their own hands. Peter is a member of the IETF establishment
so of course
Commenting is already an action taken, so we thank who made effort to bring
the points forward. I always add my comments even though I had given no
title. However, thoes folks that have been given titles by the IETF I think
they should do actions more regarding this diversity issue as
On 6/19/13 9:15 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:
On 6/19/2013 8:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 8:32 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:
On 6/19/2013 5:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the
IETF
constitution which
On 6/19/13 7:16 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Actually I see lots of structural problems -- I just happen to be of the
mindset that working from the bottom up is the only sustainable model
for change.
Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal mandates
have typically led social
On 6/19/13 11:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
My point, poorly expressed though it was, is that it's not productive
for us all to wait from word on high before taking positive action.
Members of the IESG, IAB, IOAC, or any other official body are just
folks who are temporarily serving the
On 6/19/13 9:22 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 7:16 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Actually I see lots of structural problems -- I just happen to be of the
mindset that working from the bottom up is the only sustainable model
for change.
Don't know about that one. In the US, at least,
On 6/19/13 7:26 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 9:22 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal mandates
have typically led social change, at least when it comes to civil
rights, etc.
That's a topic for the ietf-philosophy discussion list,
On 6/19/13 9:26 AM, Brian Haberman wrote:
On 6/19/13 11:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
My point, poorly expressed though it was, is that it's not productive
for us all to wait from word on high before taking positive action.
Members of the IESG, IAB, IOAC, or any other official body are
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.comwrote:
On 6/19/13 7:16 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Actually I see lots of structural problems -- I just happen to be of the
mindset that working from the bottom up is the only sustainable model
for change.
Don't know
On 6/19/13 11:31 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 9:26 AM, Brian Haberman wrote:
On 6/19/13 11:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
My point, poorly expressed though it was, is that it's not productive
for us all to wait from word on high before taking positive action.
Members of the IESG,
I think all need mentoring. It is a both way learning for top and down
levels. So maybe newcomer can be mentoring to management of what is a
newcomer like these days :-)
AB
It is one thing to follow this practice of, for lack of a better word,
ignorance, for yourself but to advocate it as a whole for the rest of
the community to follow is probably not the optimal path when addressing
the diversity conflicts. Everyone has a motive and interest in what
they do,
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On 6/19/13 9:29 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 7:26 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 9:22 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal
mandates have typically led social change, at least when it
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On 6/19/13 9:36 AM, Brian Haberman wrote:
On 6/19/13 11:31 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 9:26 AM, Brian Haberman wrote:
On 6/19/13 11:08 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
My point, poorly expressed though it was, is that it's not
On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been
thinking and reading about social, cultural, and personal change for a
very long time.
You made an assertion that's at least a little ahistorical, you
used it to support an argument
On Jun 19, 2013, at 10:01, Paul Hoffman wrote:
But there is no EPP WG. And WEIRDS is supposed to only be forward-looking,
not dealing with practices with the current protocol.
Brief history and then maybe a point. (Written as one of the co-chairs of the
PROVREG WG.)
In December 2000 a BoF
A little earlier in the thread, ways to improve things came up. I presented at
an international conference in Bangkok this week on the subject area covered by
MILE. While the focus was intended to be more on how we can look at the
problem space to make faster/more effective progress,
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On 6/19/13 10:00 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been
thinking and reading about social, cultural, and personal change
for a very long time.
You
On 6/19/13 9:01 AM, Edward Lewis wrote:
Looking back in hindsight, what would help is to have some means for
the IETF to provide a maintenance vehicle for it's products. Or
realize that the waterfall model that seems to be in place is no
longer appropriate. (As if you've never heard that
On 6/19/13 8:12 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:00 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have been
thinking and reading about social, cultural, and personal change
for a very long time.
You
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On 6/19/13 10:25 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 8:12 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:00 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 7:56 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Why do you believe that my opinions are unexamined? I have
been thinking
On Jun 19, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote:
Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal mandates
have typically led social change, at least when it comes to civil
rights, etc.
Yup. First the Civil Rights act, then Selma... ;)
Looking back in hindsight, what would help is to have some means for the
IETF to provide a maintenance vehicle for it's products.
I think there is some truth to this.
The reality has at times been that some WGs get a bit out of control
after they've been around a while, and getting them to
From: Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com
it's likely that for a few cycles nomcoms will try to be sensitive to
the question of the underrepresentation of women and then it will be
back to business as usual ...
It's unusual for people to voluntarily surrender their
On 19 jun 2013, at 18:01, Edward Lewis ed.le...@neustar.biz wrote:
Looking back in hindsight, what would help is to have some means for the IETF
to provide a maintenance vehicle for it's products. Or realize that the
waterfall model that seems to be in place is no longer appropriate. (As
From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Edward
Lewis
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 12:01 PM
To: ietf
Cc: Edward Lewis
Subject: Lessons from PROVREG WG was Re: IETF, ICANN and Whois...
[snip]
This is an example of an ICANN initiated piece of work that barely
I stand corrected.
My recollection about the initial pushback should be clarified...by the time
the reason got to me, EPP was something ICANN had asked of the IETF. Consider
that to be subject to the telephone game
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_game) syndrome. ;)
On Jun 19, 2013,
On 06/19/2013 09:45 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Jun 19, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote:
Don't know about that one. In the US, at least, legal mandates
have typically led social change, at least when it comes to civil
rights, etc.
Yup. First the Civil Rights act,
On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse
participation, we won't need legislation to fix the problem.
I'd like it if that were true but I don't think it is. For example,
the majority of academic librarians are women (one
On 06/19/2013 11:11 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse
participation, we won't need legislation to fix the problem.
I'd like it if that were true but I don't think it is. For example,
the
On 6/19/13 10:16 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
It's not clear to me how this example relates to the IETF.
Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of
practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or
management positions are men. Everybody's got good
intentions - I'd be very surprised if
On 6/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of
practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or
management positions are men. Everybody's got good
intentions
indeed, almost everyone claims that they are a better than average driver.
On 19/06/13 21:16, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 11:11 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse
participation, we won't need legislation to fix the problem.
I'd like it if that were true but I don't
Hi Aaron,
At 11:40 19-06-2013, Aaron Yi DING wrote:
Relating to the statement above(I assume Phillip is addressing the
US Academia), not quite sure are we still discussing the same topic?
sorry, I am bit confused .. since IETF is an international organization.
I changed the subject line as I
On 06/19/2013 11:40 AM, Aaron Yi DING wrote:
On 19/06/13 21:16, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 11:11 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse
participation, we won't need legislation to fix the
On 6/19/13 1:12 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 11:40 AM, Aaron Yi DING wrote:
On 19/06/13 21:16, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 11:11 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:03 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
Short version, if everyone does what they can to encourage diverse
participation, we
On Jun 19, 2013, at 10:07 PM, SM s...@resistor.net
wrote:
Hi Aaron,
At 11:40 19-06-2013, Aaron Yi DING wrote:
Relating to the statement above(I assume Phillip is addressing the US
Academia), not quite sure are we still discussing the same topic?
sorry, I am bit confused .. since IETF is
Well, this is a cultural thing :-) Some of our American colleagues cannot avoid
using examples related to the American constitution, history or academy,
forgetting that out-of-the-US interlocutors may not that familiar with them.
Luckily, they did not mention any baseball rule in this
On Jun 19, 2013, at 10:12 PM, Doug Barton do...@dougbarton.us
wrote:
On 19/06/13 18:33, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
Academia is still one of the worst environments for discrimination.
They don't have formal barriers as in the past but the informal
barriers are steep.
Relating to
On 06/19/2013 12:14 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 1:12 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
We can point to all kinds of examples that are outside the IETF of where
various biases exist. It's not at all clear that the existence of those
problems elsewhere corresponds to any actual problem within
I think this is the correct strategy, BUT, I see as a very active participant
in ICANN
(chair of SSAC) that work in ICANN could be easier if some more technical
standards where
developed in IETF, and moved forward along standards track, that ICANN can
reference.
As a concrete example, the EPP
On 06/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 6/19/13 10:16 AM, Doug Barton wrote:
It's not clear to me how this example relates to the IETF.
Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of
practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or
management positions are men.
So again,
On 6/19/13 1:27 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 12:14 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 6/19/13 1:12 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
We can point to all kinds of examples that are outside the IETF of where
various biases exist. It's not at all clear that the existence of those
problems elsewhere
On Jun 19, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Brian Haberman br...@innovationslab.net wrote:
To help facilitate the mentoring aspect, there will be a call soon for
volunteers to act as mentors for newcomers (starting with IETF 87). Once the
web page for the mentoring program with all the information is up,
On 06/19/2013 12:21 PM, Yoav Nir wrote:
On Jun 19, 2013, at 10:12 PM, Doug Barton do...@dougbarton.us
wrote:
We can point to all kinds of examples that are outside the IETF of where
various biases exist. It's not at all clear that the existence of those
problems elsewhere corresponds to
On 19/06/13 22:56, Yoav Nir wrote:
On Jun 19, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Brian Haberman br...@innovationslab.net wrote:
To help facilitate the mentoring aspect, there will be a call soon for
volunteers to act as mentors for newcomers (starting with IETF 87). Once the
web page for the mentoring
On 19/06/2013 18:25, Patrik Fältström wrote:
On 18 jun 2013, at 18:54, Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net wrote:
As for the rest of the discussion - I'm sure there are things to be improved
in ICANN. I'd suggest though that some of the feedback might be better
placed in an ICANN discussion
On Jun 19, 2013, at 3:18 PM, Yoav Nir y...@checkpoint.com wrote:
Yeah, and act is what Americans call statutes, and Selma is a city in
Alabama where there was some controversy about voting rights. You sure need
to know a lot of Americana to participate meaningfully in some of these
On Jun 19, 2013, at 3:43 PM, John Levine jo...@taugh.com wrote:
Assuming we care about stability and interoperability, wouldn't it
make sense for the IETF to spin up a WG, collect these drafts, clean
up the language, make sure they agree with the widely implemented
reality, and publish them?
Given that this document was revved twice and had it's requested status
change during IETF last call in response to discussion criticism and new
contribution I am going to rerun the last call.
the recent changes resolved my issue. thanks joe and joel.
randy
On 6/19/13 12:40 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
Sorry. That was directed largely at Melinda who is, to the best of
my understanding, an American.
Binational. Thanks for asking.
Melinda
On Jun 19, 2013, at 3:43 PM, John Levine jo...@taugh.com wrote:
I think this is the correct strategy, BUT, I see as a very active
participant in ICANN
(chair of SSAC) that work in ICANN could be easier if some more technical
standards where
developed in IETF, and moved forward along
On 2013-06-19, at 17:03, Warren Kumari war...@kumari.net wrote:
On Jun 19, 2013, at 3:43 PM, John Levine jo...@taugh.com wrote:
Assuming we care about stability and interoperability, wouldn't it
make sense for the IETF to spin up a WG, collect these drafts, clean
up the language, make sure
On Jun 19, 2013, at 4:29 PM, Brian E Carpenter brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com
wrote:
On 19/06/2013 18:25, Patrik Fältström wrote:
On 18 jun 2013, at 18:54, Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net wrote:
As for the rest of the discussion - I'm sure there are things to be
improved in ICANN. I'd
On Jun 19, 2013, at 3:43 PM, John Levine jo...@taugh.com wrote:
Assuming we care about stability and interoperability, wouldn't it
make sense for the IETF to spin up a WG, collect these drafts, clean
up the language, make sure they agree with the widely implemented
reality, and publish them?
On Jun 19, 2013, at 12:07 PM, SM s...@resistor.net wrote:
Hi Aaron,
At 11:40 19-06-2013, Aaron Yi DING wrote:
Relating to the statement above(I assume Phillip is addressing the US
Academia), not quite sure are we still discussing the same topic?
sorry, I am bit confused .. since IETF is
On Jun 19, 2013, at 2:35 PM, Dave Crocker d...@dcrocker.net wrote:
On 6/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of
practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or
management positions are men. Everybody's got good
intentions
In message m2mwqlyglu.wl%ra...@psg.com, Randy Bush writes:
Given that this document was revved twice and had it's requested status
change during IETF last call in response to discussion criticism and new
contribution I am going to rerun the last call.
the recent changes resolved my
On 19/06/13 22:56, Yoav Nir wrote:
On Jun 19, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Brian Haberman br...@innovationslab.net wrote:
To help facilitate the mentoring aspect, there will be a call soon for
volunteers to act as mentors for newcomers (starting with IETF 87). Once the
web page for the mentoring
Thanks for the text, some revision to address
On Jun 18, 2013, at 12:34 PM, Black, David
david.bl...@emc.commailto:david.bl...@emc.com wrote:
[Joe] Good points, the text can be more specific:
In environments where EAP is used for purposes other than network access
authentication all EAP
--On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 19:43 + John Levine
jo...@taugh.com wrote:
...
As a concrete example, the EPP systems used in production by
TLD registries use extensions that are documented only in
I-Ds, often expired I-Ds, or in dusty I-D like web documents.
If you look at the
On 6/19/13 2:47 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of
practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or
management positions are men.
So again, it's not at all clear how that relates to the IETF (given
On Jun 19, 2013, at 3:57 PM, Aaron Yi DING yd...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
Well, if the dominant ones later being replaced by other groups, do we need
to revamp again? What will be the end?
I'm told that white babies are now a minority of the population in the US.
--On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 17:14 -0400 Warren Kumari
war...@kumari.net wrote:
I think this is the correct strategy, BUT, I see as a very
active participant in ICANN (chair of SSAC) that work in
ICANN could be easier if some more technical standards
where developed in IETF,
+ lots.
Para los interesados.
Slds
as
Original Message
Subject:[ISOC] Applications open for ISOC Fellowship to IETF 88
(Vancouver)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 20:02:37 +
From: Steve Conte co...@isoc.org
To: isoc-members-annou...@elists.isoc.org
Ignore!
Wrong list. Jetlag.
my apologies,
as
On 06/19/2013 05:09 PM, Pete Resnick wrote:
On 6/19/13 2:47 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
On 06/19/2013 11:31 AM, Melinda Shore wrote:
Even in fields in which the overwhelming majority of
practitioners, the majority of people in leadership or
management positions are men.
So again, it's not at all
Kathleen,
Thanks, well understood indeed... I hear you.
Medel Ramirez
Globe Telecom, Inc.
Manila , Philippines.
+++
-Original Message-
From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 12:11
Thanks, Medel.
I just wanted to clarify that my closing 'in this space' was intended for
diversity improvements. Getting more users, operators, and vendors involved
will help. Having diverse input will help us have better solutions come out of
the WG.
Thanks,
Kathleen
Sent from my iPhone
Hi -
It seems as though participants in this thread are operating
with different understandings of what constitutes institutional
bias. A critical difference is whether *intent* is necessary
for bias to exist. As I understand it, institutional bias
can exist in the absence of ill intent, and
On 06/19/2013 10:13 PM, Randy Presuhn wrote:
Hi -
It seems as though participants in this thread are operating
with different understandings of what constitutes institutional
bias. A critical difference is whether *intent* is necessary
for bias to exist. As I understand it, institutional bias
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