KR>FW: Re: KR flight characteristics

[Ryan]

-Original Message-
From: Ryan [mailto:rr...@san.rr.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 7:27 PM
To: 'KRnet'
Subject: RE: KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

Larry and group,

I just purchased this KR 2 months ago. It is old with a 2100cc Revmaster with 
CDI ignition.
Anyone weighing around 200# or less can get some stick time with me by Texting 
me with their name.
I am at KSDM Brown Field airport in San Diego, CA.

I am working on ergonomics now for comfort, seating, controls and CG issues 
that have made it more comfortable for me.

Ryan
N81BP KR-2 Tri-Gear
Text me any time 858-229-4875


-Original Message-
From: Flesner [mailto:fles...@frontier.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 4:31 PM
To: krnet@list.krnet.org
Subject: KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

On 8/24/2021 5:14 PM, Ryan wrote:
> My standard KR2 with Tri-Gear was pitch sensitive at 25% chord. I moved the 
> 12# battery behind the seatback to get 22% chord and now it is not pitch 
> sensitive with 1 person aboard. I have flown with 160# of ballast with a 
> similar result.
> Text me if you are in my area for some stick time. Copilot should be under 
> 200#.
> Ryan

+++

Ryan,

Thanks for your post.  With your permission I will attempt to add some clarity 
to what you posted.

The plans call for a CG range of 15%-35% of chord, 8-16 inches aft of the wing 
center section lead edge.  You stated you were at 25% (12") and "move the 
battery behind behind the back seat".  We can only assume you meant "from 
behind the back set forward" and that put you at 22% (10.56").  Moving the CG 
forward would certainly improve pitch stability but it seems 1.44" is not 
significant enough to make a major improvement.  Can you give us an idea of how 
accurately your scales were and how close your measurements were?  What was the 
distance forward you moved the battery?  Is it again pitch sensitive with a 
passenger?  It seems a passenger would have moved the CG back at least to the 
25% where it was once pitch sensitive.

Don't take my questions as disbelief in your results but as a means to 
determine accuracy so that others may benefit from your findings.  I know it 
has been stated hundreds of times but I'll repeat once more. For standard 
KR2's, stay out of the last 2" of the published CG range.

Ryan and others.  If you have info to share, my all means do so. Just try to be 
as thorough and as detailed as possible.  We'd like to hear from you.

For those attending the Gathering I'm scheduled to give a Power Point 
presentation on W&B.  We'll cover "what it is", "all the factors" , "why we 
care", and "how to determine the CG on YOUR airplane".

How many more days?

Larry Flesner

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KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

[Flesner]

On 8/24/2021 5:14 PM, Ryan wrote:

  what kind of trim control does a KR have? Some KR
folks have installed various trim devices and even auto-pilots with some
success, so not sure where this discussion should go.

Mark W


+

I don't recall anyone addressing your question.  These are the types of 
things learned at a KR Gathering with a chance to actually look at 
options live and in person.  Every builder should attend.


I'm using the "Ray Allen" servo or whatever it is called now.  I started 
with a cable system to a tab on the elevator but didn't like amount of 
free play in the tab.  I bit the bullet and ordered the "Ray Allen" unit 
and installed it in the elevator with a very short push rod.  I ran the 
wires to the instrument panel for the rocker switch.  The indicator 
burned out in a very short time but I never repaired it as I don't look 
at or reference it anyway.  My switch is actually mounted below the 
panel on the sidewall out of site.


Others use bungees or springs attached to the control system with some 
means of changing the tension on the stick.  Photos can be seen at


https://www.dropbox.com/s/iyqod5cb5pmeom3/IMG_8615.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dn8dgb5y836j3um/IMG_8611.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8yrzf99baj1zeg/IMG_8612.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pggv503t8li98om/IMG_8613.JPG?dl=0

If you look at the center left, past the throttle and below what I once 
used for a GPS before switching to IFLY and a 10 inch tablet you can see 
my trim switch and indicator.  Now you know why I never bothered to fix 
the indicator, I can't see it.  That is never a problem.


Larry Flesner

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KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

[Flesner]

On 8/24/2021 5:14 PM, Ryan wrote:

My standard KR2 with Tri-Gear was pitch sensitive at 25% chord. I moved the 12# 
battery behind the seatback to get 22% chord and now it is not pitch sensitive 
with 1 person aboard. I have flown with 160# of ballast with a similar result.
Text me if you are in my area for some stick time. Copilot should be under 200#.
Ryan


+++

Ryan,

Thanks for your post.  With your permission I will attempt to add some 
clarity to what you posted.


The plans call for a CG range of 15%-35% of chord, 8-16 inches aft of 
the wing center section lead edge.  You stated you were at 25% (12") and 
"move the battery behind behind the back seat".  We can only assume you 
meant "from behind the back set forward" and that put you at 22% 
(10.56").  Moving the CG forward would certainly improve pitch stability 
but it seems 1.44" is not significant enough to make a major 
improvement.  Can you give us an idea of how accurately your scales were 
and how close your measurements were?  What was the distance forward you 
moved the battery?  Is it again pitch sensitive with a passenger?  It 
seems a passenger would have moved the CG back at least to the 25% where 
it was once pitch sensitive.


Don't take my questions as disbelief in your results but as a means to 
determine accuracy so that others may benefit from your findings.  I 
know it has been stated hundreds of times but I'll repeat once more.  
For standard KR2's, stay out of the last 2" of the published CG range.


Ryan and others.  If you have info to share, my all means do so. Just 
try to be as thorough and as detailed as possible.  We'd like to hear 
from you.


For those attending the Gathering I'm scheduled to give a Power Point 
presentation on W&B.  We'll cover "what it is", "all the factors" , "why 
we care", and "how to determine the CG on YOUR airplane".


How many more days?

Larry Flesner

-Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
-Change list delivery options at 
https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board
-Search recent KRnet Archives at  
https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/
-Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at 
https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/ 

KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

[Ryan]

My standard KR2 with Tri-Gear was pitch sensitive at 25% chord. I moved the 12# 
battery behind the seatback to get 22% chord and now it is not pitch sensitive 
with 1 person aboard. I have flown with 160# of ballast with a similar result.
Text me if you are in my area for some stick time. Copilot should be under 200#.

Ryan
N81BP
Text 858-229-4875

-Original Message-
From: Mark Wegmet [mailto:markweg...@charter.net] 
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 7:22 PM
To: KRnet; Jeff Scott
Subject: KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

Okay, I'll bite... what kind of trim control does a KR have? Some KR 
folks have installed various trim devices and even auto-pilots with some 
success, so not sure where this discussion should go.

Mark W(N952MW res) But I'm interested... done collecting parts, starting 
to build!

On 8/23/2021 9:02 PM, Jeff Scott wrote:
> A Bonanza can be properly trimmed and is dynamically stable.  A stock KR can 
> do neither.  I guess 1400 hrs in a KR wasn't enough training to hone my 
> skills.
>
> Still not a qualified as a "real" KR pilot, but at least I'm a slow learner. 
> :o) <- smiley face just in case someone misses my humor.
>
> -Jeff Scott
>
>
>
>> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 at 9:48 AM
>> From: "Tommy Waymack" <5blind...@gmail.com>
>> To: "KRnet" 
>> Subject: KR>Re: KR flight characteristics
>>
>> After 27 years of flying a stock kr2 . I Still hear here people complaining
>> about how the airplane is pitch sensitive. Maybe there is something to be
>> said for pilot training. would not change a thing.Beech Bonanza is pitch
>> sensitive too. Tommy W.
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 3:21 PM Flesner  wrote:
>>
>>> n 8/22/2021 1:25 PM, Jeff Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>> I flew my KR for 500 hrs without any drag producing devices.  Then I
>>>> added flaps and significantly modified the tail.  I don't think I ever
>>>> landed without flaps again other than for training purposes.  The
>>>> larger tail and deployable drag greatly expanded the operating
>>>> envelope of my KR with much improved crosswind performance.  My KR
>>>> suddenly changed from a calm day flyer to a plane that I could fly in
>>>> almost any VFR weather.
>>>>
>>>> -Jeff Scott
>>> +++
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's unfortunate that the KR's have the reputation they have based on
>>> the original KR2.  The 2S built now days is a sleeper on the market.
>>> When Jeff moved up to a larger air frame (RV6) he sold one of the best
>>> equipped KR's on the market, 50% faster on the same fuel burn, than a
>>> C150 for less than $20K.  The Wisconsin KR2S just auctioned off is
>>> another example of a great bargain.
>>>
>>> The major problem with the KR is that people have out grown the design.
>>> A 200 pound pilot wants to carry a180 pound passenger in a small air
>>> frame using 75 h.p.  If the 200 pound owner would consider the airplane
>>> to be a great single place, and make a few mods to improve the flying
>>> characteristics if desired, they would enjoy owning and flying the KR.
>>> Mark Langford, being the size person the KR was designed for 50 years
>>> ago, flies one of the most stock KR2's all over the Midwest on a regular
>>> basis.  The flying characteristics are acceptable enough so that he is
>>> not yet motivated to repair the 2S he flew prior to that and put it back
>>> in the air.
>>>
>>> The KR has it's flaws but all are well know and can be designed out to
>>> have a great flying, economical airplane.  That's why it still has it's
>>> followers.
>>>
>>> Larry Flesner
>>> 
>>> -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>>> -Change list delivery options at
>>> https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board
>>> -Search recent KRnet Archives at
>>> https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/
>>> -Search <https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/-Search>
>>> John Bouyea's decades of archive at
>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
>> 
>> -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>> -Change list delivery options

KR>Flight Characteristics.

[colin hales]

Why would anyone say you can't trim out a KR2?

My Kr2 can be trimmed out just fine and easily with a simple spring balance 
trim mechanism and it is also Dynamically stable in pitch as any other aircraft 
on the forward C of G limit. The aircraft only becomes neutrally stable in 
pitch at 6 inches aft and divergent beyond that. All quite normal.

I rest my arm on my leg or just fly the aircraft with my legs if my hands are 
busy map folding or I'm eating lunch. If the aircraft is in good trim but gets 
disturbed a little with turbulence, I can return the aircraft to level flight 
by moving my hands around the cockpit. If I lean forward, the nose goes down, 
if I put my hands behind my head, the nose lifts. Having the pilots weight as 
such a large percentage of the aircrafts MAUW means you can do this.

But normally the aircraft is so stable, I don't touch the controls much. To 
climb - add power, to descend - lower the power. You can steer and use 
secondary effect of rudder to turn and bank the aircraft. I have a short 
control column. You move it at slow speeds such as take off and landing, but at 
cruise speeds you just apply pressure to direct the aircraft where you want it 
to go. I haven't got flaps or speed brakes, I just use the propeller as a drag 
device. I don't have an idle setting, I can stop the engine simply by closing 
the throttle. But in the air, the prop windmills with the throttle fully closed 
and creates sufficient drag to reduce speeds back to approach speed easily with 
a 500+ feet decent rate. My plane is totally stock.

The people who continually question the design of the aircraft either haven't 
got theirs set up right or haven't finished building or are just as persistent 
about raising this subject as I am bored of defending the delightful flight 
characteristics.

Watch this again if you want to see how little you move the control column.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FJuTyf2sJc

Colin H.



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KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

[Phillip Matheson]

760 odd hours in a stock kr  (try gear) heavy engine. Needs minimum 70kg pilot 
to fly. First flight scared me with PIO. After that no other aircraft  compares 
to the pleasure I get from my Kr2 ( except my mates 300 hp turbo glass air, 
it’s also very light on the side joystick.  

Just fly it and you will love it too. If concerned, maybe you need a different 
plane. 
But please stop knocking this fantastic little joy to fly aircraft. 
My two cents worth 
Phil Matheson 
Australian ( or maybe the down under atmosphere is just better for the KR2 
😂



Sent from my iPhone

> On 24 Aug 2021, at 12:58, Luis Claudio via KRnet  wrote:
> 
>  I am yet to fly my KR but "stability be dammed" I yelled as I installed a 
> Roll and Pitch servo for my Dynon EFIS. I am that eternal optimist that sees 
> good in all including the KR2... On Monday, August 23, 2021, 09:25:58 PM 
> CDT, Chris Pryce  wrote:  
> 
> I have the ray allen servo for pitch trim and recently added a dynon servo
> for altitude hold. It works great.
> 
> Chris Pryce
> Vacaville, CA
> 
> -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> -Change list delivery options at 
> https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board
> -Search recent KRnet Archives at  
> https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/
> -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at 
> https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/ 
> 
> 
> -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> -Change list delivery options at 
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> https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/
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> https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/

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KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

[Jeff Scott]

I must not be the right person to train with, cause apparently I don't know 
nothin'.  -Jeff

> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 at 9:58 PM
> From: "Luis Claudio via KRnet" 
> To: "KRnet" 
> Cc: "Luis Claudio" 
> Subject: KR>Re: KR flight characteristics
>
>  I am yet to fly my KR but "stability be dammed" I yelled as I installed a 
> Roll and Pitch servo for my Dynon EFIS. I am that eternal optimist that sees 
> good in all including the KR2... On Monday, August 23, 2021, 09:25:58 PM 
> CDT, Chris Pryce  wrote:  
>  
>  I have the ray allen servo for pitch trim and recently added a dynon servo
> for altitude hold. It works great.
> 
> Chris Pryce
> Vacaville, CA

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KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

[Luis Claudio via KRnet]

 I am yet to fly my KR but "stability be dammed" I yelled as I installed a Roll 
and Pitch servo for my Dynon EFIS. I am that eternal optimist that sees good in 
all including the KR2... On Monday, August 23, 2021, 09:25:58 PM CDT, Chris 
Pryce  wrote:  
 
 I have the ray allen servo for pitch trim and recently added a dynon servo
for altitude hold. It works great.

Chris Pryce
Vacaville, CA

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KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

[Chris Pryce]

I have the ray allen servo for pitch trim and recently added a dynon servo
for altitude hold. It works great.

Chris Pryce
Vacaville, CA

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KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

[Mark Wegmet]

Okay, I'll bite... what kind of trim control does a KR have? Some KR 
folks have installed various trim devices and even auto-pilots with some 
success, so not sure where this discussion should go.


Mark W(N952MW res) But I'm interested... done collecting parts, starting 
to build!


On 8/23/2021 9:02 PM, Jeff Scott wrote:

A Bonanza can be properly trimmed and is dynamically stable.  A stock KR can do 
neither.  I guess 1400 hrs in a KR wasn't enough training to hone my skills.

Still not a qualified as a "real" KR pilot, but at least I'm a slow learner. :o) 
<- smiley face just in case someone misses my humor.

-Jeff Scott




Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 at 9:48 AM
From: "Tommy Waymack" <5blind...@gmail.com>
To: "KRnet" 
Subject: KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

After 27 years of flying a stock kr2 . I Still hear here people complaining
about how the airplane is pitch sensitive. Maybe there is something to be
said for pilot training. would not change a thing.Beech Bonanza is pitch
sensitive too. Tommy W.

On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 3:21 PM Flesner  wrote:


n 8/22/2021 1:25 PM, Jeff Scott wrote:


I flew my KR for 500 hrs without any drag producing devices.  Then I
added flaps and significantly modified the tail.  I don't think I ever
landed without flaps again other than for training purposes.  The
larger tail and deployable drag greatly expanded the operating
envelope of my KR with much improved crosswind performance.  My KR
suddenly changed from a calm day flyer to a plane that I could fly in
almost any VFR weather.

-Jeff Scott

+++



It's unfortunate that the KR's have the reputation they have based on
the original KR2.  The 2S built now days is a sleeper on the market.
When Jeff moved up to a larger air frame (RV6) he sold one of the best
equipped KR's on the market, 50% faster on the same fuel burn, than a
C150 for less than $20K.  The Wisconsin KR2S just auctioned off is
another example of a great bargain.

The major problem with the KR is that people have out grown the design.
A 200 pound pilot wants to carry a180 pound passenger in a small air
frame using 75 h.p.  If the 200 pound owner would consider the airplane
to be a great single place, and make a few mods to improve the flying
characteristics if desired, they would enjoy owning and flying the KR.
Mark Langford, being the size person the KR was designed for 50 years
ago, flies one of the most stock KR2's all over the Midwest on a regular
basis.  The flying characteristics are acceptable enough so that he is
not yet motivated to repair the 2S he flew prior to that and put it back
in the air.

The KR has it's flaws but all are well know and can be designed out to
have a great flying, economical airplane.  That's why it still has it's
followers.

Larry Flesner

-Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
-Change list delivery options at
https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board
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-Search <https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/-Search>
John Bouyea's decades of archive at
https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/


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KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

[Jeff Scott]

A Bonanza can be properly trimmed and is dynamically stable.  A stock KR can do 
neither.  I guess 1400 hrs in a KR wasn't enough training to hone my skills.

Still not a qualified as a "real" KR pilot, but at least I'm a slow learner. 
:o) <- smiley face just in case someone misses my humor.

-Jeff Scott



> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 at 9:48 AM
> From: "Tommy Waymack" <5blind...@gmail.com>
> To: "KRnet" 
> Subject: KR>Re: KR flight characteristics
>
> After 27 years of flying a stock kr2 . I Still hear here people complaining
> about how the airplane is pitch sensitive. Maybe there is something to be
> said for pilot training. would not change a thing.Beech Bonanza is pitch
> sensitive too. Tommy W.
>
> On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 3:21 PM Flesner  wrote:
>
> >
> > n 8/22/2021 1:25 PM, Jeff Scott wrote:
> >
> > > I flew my KR for 500 hrs without any drag producing devices.  Then I
> > > added flaps and significantly modified the tail.  I don't think I ever
> > > landed without flaps again other than for training purposes.  The
> > > larger tail and deployable drag greatly expanded the operating
> > > envelope of my KR with much improved crosswind performance.  My KR
> > > suddenly changed from a calm day flyer to a plane that I could fly in
> > > almost any VFR weather.
> > >
> > > -Jeff Scott
> >
> > +++
> >
> >
> >
> > It's unfortunate that the KR's have the reputation they have based on
> > the original KR2.  The 2S built now days is a sleeper on the market.
> > When Jeff moved up to a larger air frame (RV6) he sold one of the best
> > equipped KR's on the market, 50% faster on the same fuel burn, than a
> > C150 for less than $20K.  The Wisconsin KR2S just auctioned off is
> > another example of a great bargain.
> >
> > The major problem with the KR is that people have out grown the design.
> > A 200 pound pilot wants to carry a180 pound passenger in a small air
> > frame using 75 h.p.  If the 200 pound owner would consider the airplane
> > to be a great single place, and make a few mods to improve the flying
> > characteristics if desired, they would enjoy owning and flying the KR.
> > Mark Langford, being the size person the KR was designed for 50 years
> > ago, flies one of the most stock KR2's all over the Midwest on a regular
> > basis.  The flying characteristics are acceptable enough so that he is
> > not yet motivated to repair the 2S he flew prior to that and put it back
> > in the air.
> >
> > The KR has it's flaws but all are well know and can be designed out to
> > have a great flying, economical airplane.  That's why it still has it's
> > followers.
> >
> > Larry Flesner
> > 
> > -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> > -Change list delivery options at
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KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

[Tommy Waymack]

After 27 years of flying a stock kr2 . I Still hear here people complaining
about how the airplane is pitch sensitive. Maybe there is something to be
said for pilot training. would not change a thing.Beech Bonanza is pitch
sensitive too. Tommy W.

On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 3:21 PM Flesner  wrote:

>
> n 8/22/2021 1:25 PM, Jeff Scott wrote:
>
> > I flew my KR for 500 hrs without any drag producing devices.  Then I
> > added flaps and significantly modified the tail.  I don't think I ever
> > landed without flaps again other than for training purposes.  The
> > larger tail and deployable drag greatly expanded the operating
> > envelope of my KR with much improved crosswind performance.  My KR
> > suddenly changed from a calm day flyer to a plane that I could fly in
> > almost any VFR weather.
> >
> > -Jeff Scott
>
> +++
>
>
>
> It's unfortunate that the KR's have the reputation they have based on
> the original KR2.  The 2S built now days is a sleeper on the market.
> When Jeff moved up to a larger air frame (RV6) he sold one of the best
> equipped KR's on the market, 50% faster on the same fuel burn, than a
> C150 for less than $20K.  The Wisconsin KR2S just auctioned off is
> another example of a great bargain.
>
> The major problem with the KR is that people have out grown the design.
> A 200 pound pilot wants to carry a180 pound passenger in a small air
> frame using 75 h.p.  If the 200 pound owner would consider the airplane
> to be a great single place, and make a few mods to improve the flying
> characteristics if desired, they would enjoy owning and flying the KR.
> Mark Langford, being the size person the KR was designed for 50 years
> ago, flies one of the most stock KR2's all over the Midwest on a regular
> basis.  The flying characteristics are acceptable enough so that he is
> not yet motivated to repair the 2S he flew prior to that and put it back
> in the air.
>
> The KR has it's flaws but all are well know and can be designed out to
> have a great flying, economical airplane.  That's why it still has it's
> followers.
>
> Larry Flesner
> 
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KR>Re: KR flight characteristics

[Mark Langford]

Larry Flesner wrote:

Mark Langford, being the size person the KR was designed for 50 years 
ago, flies one of the most stock KR2's all over the Midwest on a regular 
basis.  The flying characteristics are acceptable enough so that he is 
not yet motivated to repair the 2S he flew prior to that and put it back 
in the air.


I wouldn't say I lack the motivation, it's just that it's further down 
the priority list than the majority of other things going on in my life 
for the last ten years.  I've been flying the KR2 that Jim Faughn built 
in 1991, and it's almost perfectly per the plans, except it now has 
fixed gear on it, rather than the original retracts that he started out 
with. It certainly does get me around, usually throttled back a bit 
getting 150 mph True Airspeed at my favorite 9500'-10,500' altitude 
range, burning less than 4 gallons per hour with the 2180cc VW.


 But it's not a plane that you can let go of the stick in, generally 
speaking, unless it's calm air.  Then you can fly it by simply leaning a 
little left or right, or moving a leg or arm a few inches in the 
direction you want to go.  That's fun, but it's not something you want 
to do for long before you go back to hand-flying it.   But that shows 
you how pitch sensitive it is, and how in general it won't go straight 
ahead on its ownit requires attention.  It does have a tendency to 
drift off left or right and eventually into a banking dive if you sit 
back and just watch it, but just a few ounces of pressure on the stick 
keeps it centered and away from that kind of stuff. I only know that 
because of testing, not because it happens all the time.


I'll be quick to tell you that the KR2 is still a great way to get from 
point A to point B in a hurry, and quite capable of handling decent 
grass strips too.


 But it can't hold a candle to my longer KR2S, N56ML, which has large 
flaps, longer horizontal stabilizers, and taller vertical stab/rudder. 
It was very easy to fly and especially land, mainly due to improved 
visibility with the Dragonfly canopy,  longer tailwheel moment, and 
wider main gear (none of which are "per the plans".  And with the 3100cc 
Corvair engine, my standard speed was 175 mph, burning about 5.5 gallons 
per hour.


I'll get it back in the air eventually, but unfortunately it's still a 
way down the To Do list.


See  http://www.n56ml.com for more on my KR2S, as well as some stuff on 
the KR2 (at the top).


--
Mark Langford
m...@n56ml.com
http://www.n56ml.com
Huntsville, AL

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KR>KR flight characteristics and more

[Flesner]

On 8/22/2021 3:22 PM, Flesner wrote:
The KR has it's flaws but all are well know and can be designed out to 
have a great flying, economical airplane.  That's why it still has 
it's followers.


Larry Flesner 


++

Besides believing the Kr is a great flying airplane, here is another 
life fact I've been sharing with others lately that you'll find hard to 
believe.  I recall that as a youngster of about 6 years old I sat in the 
room with my mother as she visited with my great grandfather who was 12 
years old when Abraham Lincoln was shot and 50 years old when the Wright 
Brothers first flew. Doesn't seem possible.


To that I'll add my latest "Observation of life".  "AGING IS NOT A 
LINEAR PROCESS"  You best get back to the workshop and finish up that 
project.  How many days till Lees Summit?


Larry Flesner

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KR>KR flight characteristics

[Flesner]

n 8/22/2021 1:25 PM, Jeff Scott wrote:

I flew my KR for 500 hrs without any drag producing devices.  Then I 
added flaps and significantly modified the tail.  I don't think I ever 
landed without flaps again other than for training purposes.  The 
larger tail and deployable drag greatly expanded the operating 
envelope of my KR with much improved crosswind performance.  My KR 
suddenly changed from a calm day flyer to a plane that I could fly in 
almost any VFR weather.


-Jeff Scott


+++ 



It's unfortunate that the KR's have the reputation they have based on 
the original KR2.  The 2S built now days is a sleeper on the market.  
When Jeff moved up to a larger air frame (RV6) he sold one of the best 
equipped KR's on the market, 50% faster on the same fuel burn, than a 
C150 for less than $20K.  The Wisconsin KR2S just auctioned off is 
another example of a great bargain.


The major problem with the KR is that people have out grown the design.  
A 200 pound pilot wants to carry a180 pound passenger in a small air 
frame using 75 h.p.  If the 200 pound owner would consider the airplane 
to be a great single place, and make a few mods to improve the flying 
characteristics if desired, they would enjoy owning and flying the KR.  
Mark Langford, being the size person the KR was designed for 50 years 
ago, flies one of the most stock KR2's all over the Midwest on a regular 
basis.  The flying characteristics are acceptable enough so that he is 
not yet motivated to repair the 2S he flew prior to that and put it back 
in the air.


The KR has it's flaws but all are well know and can be designed out to 
have a great flying, economical airplane.  That's why it still has it's 
followers.


Larry Flesner

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KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability

[Kogelmann Christian - OS ETA]

I thought I share the final authority check on my KR-2S/GPAS2180 plans
build, taildragger, but with belly board.

After the paperwork check the inspector wanted to fly. It should be the
inspectors first flight in KR.
I wasn't keen on letting the inspector fly, but he insisted as he had more
than 1000 flight hours on 80 different types including taildragger (PA18 I
found out later). Pilot in command was the authority guy and I was the
shivering passenger...

The airplane has 37:18 flighthours and 215 landings so far and here is the
(problem-)report issued by our experienced pilot:

Take off:
take off roll was initially stable once the tail was off the ground at about
30kts the airplane veered to the right.
We departed the runway at about 40 knots to the right and into 2in of slushy
snow.
However the airplane still accelerated and he yanked it of the soft ground
at 50kts.
The inspector was upset with the aircraft and recommended to "do something"
with the ground handling.

The flight:
-)we did some normal stalls at around 46kts-ok
-)we did stalls at 45° bank angle - scary but ok you can still hold
direction and the airplane does not fall on its back
-)we did slips - all ok and maneuverable
-)flat turns - ok
-)directional stability - ok
-)static longitudinal stability - trimmed to 90kts and moving the stick and
let go will decelerate or accelerate the airplane to destruction -
conclusion unstable - not ok 
-)dynamic longitudinal stability - trimmed to 100kts moving the stick 2in
forward and 2in aft and then let go will induce  
increasing up-down motion with the stick moving after the 3rd motion into
full down and you end up with negative G (oil pressure light came on and
everything not tied down flew up)
not acceptable - unstable
otherwise the inspector was impressed by the performance of the little bird.
He recommended to install a elevator spring to stabilize the stick and
therefore stabilizing the plane.

After we finished our program we dove under the clouds, and the countryside
covered with white snow looked the same everywhere we looked...it took us 15
minutes of finding the 655m long asphalt runway in amidst off all the white
surfaces.

Landing:
I told him that I do long stabilized approaches at "exactly!!" 70kts and
between 1800 and 2000 RPM.
He did a short approach between 70 and 80kts.
Flare was very high as he is not used to a very low KR.
We bounced 3 times and went all over the place with the left gear ending on
the left outer barrier of the runway and the airplane slid sideways. And
stopped without a full ground loop (I guess it was a half loop)

His comment - I guess we did not break itand think about improving the
ground handling characteristics
I was mad, under shock and my mouth was extremely dry and I did not get
final certification as I need to sort out the longitudinal stability issue
eg. installing a Spring loaded stick.

My conclusion, after my training with a former Air Force pilot for about 70
landings I am halfway capable of landing the little bird on my 655m (approx
1900ft) home airport. My landings are (please don't flame me) 3 pointers or
something similar
and I (120 flight hours experience + glider time) would have done a better
job than my professional inspector.
However the belly board is a huge improvement when landing on a short strip
655x30m (1900x90) its worth its weight in gold.

I hope I didn't bore you too much but it shows if you don't know the plane
you can have all sorts of take off and landing problems in what the
inspector called "Giftnudel"-KR.

Cheers
Christian
OE-VPD
http://www.members.aon.at/oevpd

KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability

[Bob]

K..your inspector may have some time but is not a proficient pilot..and
indications are he is a poor inspector..take heart and forget
him..bob..4200inst in T-6..usaf test.14000tt..

Kogelmann Christian - OS ETA wrote:
> 
> I thought I share the final authority check on my KR-2S/GPAS2180 plans
> build, taildragger, but with belly board.
> 
> After the paperwork check the inspector wanted to fly. It should be the
> inspectors first flight in KR.
> I wasn't keen on letting the inspector fly, but he insisted as he had more
> than 1000 flight hours on 80 different types including taildragger (PA18 I
> found out later). Pilot in command was the authority guy and I was the
> shivering passenger...
> 
> The airplane has 37:18 flighthours and 215 landings so far and here is the
> (problem-)report issued by our experienced pilot:
> 
> Take off:
> take off roll was initially stable once the tail was off the ground at about
> 30kts the airplane veered to the right.
> We departed the runway at about 40 knots to the right and into 2in of slushy
> snow.
> However the airplane still accelerated and he yanked it of the soft ground
> at 50kts.
> The inspector was upset with the aircraft and recommended to "do something"
> with the ground handling.
> 
> The flight:
> -)we did some normal stalls at around 46kts-ok
> -)we did stalls at 45° bank angle - scary but ok you can still hold
> direction and the airplane does not fall on its back
> -)we did slips - all ok and maneuverable
> -)flat turns - ok
> -)directional stability - ok
> -)static longitudinal stability - trimmed to 90kts and moving the stick and
> let go will decelerate or accelerate the airplane to destruction -
> conclusion unstable - not ok
> -)dynamic longitudinal stability - trimmed to 100kts moving the stick 2in
> forward and 2in aft and then let go will induce
> increasing up-down motion with the stick moving after the 3rd motion into
> full down and you end up with negative G (oil pressure light came on and
> everything not tied down flew up)
> not acceptable - unstable
> otherwise the inspector was impressed by the performance of the little bird.
> He recommended to install a elevator spring to stabilize the stick and
> therefore stabilizing the plane.
> 
> After we finished our program we dove under the clouds, and the countryside
> covered with white snow looked the same everywhere we looked...it took us 15
> minutes of finding the 655m long asphalt runway in amidst off all the white
> surfaces.
> 
> Landing:
> I told him that I do long stabilized approaches at "exactly!!" 70kts and
> between 1800 and 2000 RPM.
> He did a short approach between 70 and 80kts.
> Flare was very high as he is not used to a very low KR.
> We bounced 3 times and went all over the place with the left gear ending on
> the left outer barrier of the runway and the airplane slid sideways. And
> stopped without a full ground loop (I guess it was a half loop)
> 
> His comment - I guess we did not break itand think about improving the
> ground handling characteristics
> I was mad, under shock and my mouth was extremely dry and I did not get
> final certification as I need to sort out the longitudinal stability issue
> eg. installing a Spring loaded stick.
> 
> My conclusion, after my training with a former Air Force pilot for about 70
> landings I am halfway capable of landing the little bird on my 655m (approx
> 1900ft) home airport. My landings are (please don't flame me) 3 pointers or
> something similar
> and I (120 flight hours experience + glider time) would have done a better
> job than my professional inspector.
> However the belly board is a huge improvement when landing on a short strip
> 655x30m (1900x90) its worth its weight in gold.
> 
> I hope I didn't bore you too much but it shows if you don't know the plane
> you can have all sorts of take off and landing problems in what the
> inspector called "Giftnudel"-KR.
> 
> Cheers
> Christian
> OE-VPD
> http://www.members.aon.at/oevpd
> 
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability

[Jack Cooper]

Christian
  Is it normal for the final authority to fly the airplane? This inspector
should have known better than to take control (especially on take off and
landing) of an airplane which he was unfamiliar with. I wonder what his
comment would have been if he had brooken it? Proficiency in several types
of aircraft don't mean proficiency in every type of aircraft. I have flown
highly experienced fighter pilots in a Cessna 150 and found that they were
completely out of their environment and had to take control to recover
their landing. Of course it didn't take them long to master the C-150 but
first take off or landings can be disastrous in unfamiliar airplanes.
Jack Cooper


> [Original Message]
> From: Kogelmann Christian - OS ETA 
> To: KRnet 
> Date: 2/26/2004 12:11:42 PM
> Subject: KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability
>
> I thought I share the final authority check on my KR-2S/GPAS2180 plans
> build, taildragger, but with belly board.
>
> After the paperwork check the inspector wanted to fly. It should be the
> inspectors first flight in KR.
> I wasn't keen on letting the inspector fly, but he insisted as he had more
> than 1000 flight hours on 80 different types including taildragger (PA18 I
> found out later). Pilot in command was the authority guy and I was the
> shivering passenger...
>
> The airplane has 37:18 flighthours and 215 landings so far and here is the
> (problem-)report issued by our experienced pilot:
>
> Take off:
> take off roll was initially stable once the tail was off the ground at
about
> 30kts the airplane veered to the right.
> We departed the runway at about 40 knots to the right and into 2in of
slushy
> snow.
> However the airplane still accelerated and he yanked it of the soft ground
> at 50kts.
> The inspector was upset with the aircraft and recommended to "do
something"
> with the ground handling.
>
> The flight:
> -)we did some normal stalls at around 46kts-ok
> -)we did stalls at 45° bank angle - scary but ok you can still hold
> direction and the airplane does not fall on its back
> -)we did slips - all ok and maneuverable
> -)flat turns - ok
> -)directional stability - ok
> -)static longitudinal stability - trimmed to 90kts and moving the stick
and
> let go will decelerate or accelerate the airplane to destruction -
> conclusion unstable - not ok 
> -)dynamic longitudinal stability - trimmed to 100kts moving the stick 2in
> forward and 2in aft and then let go will induce  
> increasing up-down motion with the stick moving after the 3rd motion into
> full down and you end up with negative G (oil pressure light came on and
> everything not tied down flew up)
> not acceptable - unstable
> otherwise the inspector was impressed by the performance of the little
bird.
> He recommended to install a elevator spring to stabilize the stick and
> therefore stabilizing the plane.
>
> After we finished our program we dove under the clouds, and the
countryside
> covered with white snow looked the same everywhere we looked...it took us
15
> minutes of finding the 655m long asphalt runway in amidst off all the
white
> surfaces.
>
> Landing:
> I told him that I do long stabilized approaches at "exactly!!" 70kts and
> between 1800 and 2000 RPM.
> He did a short approach between 70 and 80kts.
> Flare was very high as he is not used to a very low KR.
> We bounced 3 times and went all over the place with the left gear ending
on
> the left outer barrier of the runway and the airplane slid sideways. And
> stopped without a full ground loop (I guess it was a half loop)
>
> His comment - I guess we did not break itand think about improving the
> ground handling characteristics
> I was mad, under shock and my mouth was extremely dry and I did not get
> final certification as I need to sort out the longitudinal stability issue
> eg. installing a Spring loaded stick.
>
> My conclusion, after my training with a former Air Force pilot for about
70
> landings I am halfway capable of landing the little bird on my 655m
(approx
> 1900ft) home airport. My landings are (please don't flame me) 3 pointers
or
> something similar
> and I (120 flight hours experience + glider time) would have done a better
> job than my professional inspector.
> However the belly board is a huge improvement when landing on a short
strip
> 655x30m (1900x90) its worth its weight in gold.
>
> I hope I didn't bore you too much but it shows if you don't know the plane
> you can have all sorts of take off and landing problems in what the
> inspector called "Giftnudel"-KR.
>
> Cheers
> Christian
> OE-VPD
> http://www.members.aon.at/oevpd
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability

[Dan Heath]

Fire the inspector, report him to the FAA and don't do anything to your
plane to make it unsafe.

If an inspector that had no time in a KR and who I didn't know asked,
insisted, to fly my plane, I would tell him to take a hike.

We have an experienced RV conventional gear pilot giving RV lessons to a
high time F-16 pilot and it took him a little while to get used to it. 

See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics

Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC

da...@kr-builder.org

See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering

See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org

KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability

[jsmon...@aol.com]

Might ask the inspector for his log book to see if he has been previously 
checked out in KR.  Probably illegal for him to fly it without being checked 
out 
in it first.

John Monday
KR2S
Laguna Beach, CA

KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability

[joe]

I got the impression this flight was done outside the US.
Which could explain the diversity the inspector had. I could be wrong.

- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Heath" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability


Fire the inspector, report him to the FAA and don't do anything to your
plane to make it unsafe.

If an inspector that had no time in a KR and who I didn't know asked,
insisted, to fly my plane, I would tell him to take a hike.

We have an experienced RV conventional gear pilot giving RV lessons to a
high time F-16 pilot and it took him a little while to get used to it. 

See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics

Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC

da...@kr-builder.org

See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering

See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org



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KR>Flight Characteristics

[ronev...@cox.net]

Mr. Monday;
 Single-engine land.  If he is a private pilot he can fly a KR.  Whether or 
not the insurance company likes the fact that he is flying a KR is a different 
issue.

RV

KR>Flight Characteristics

[Kogelmann Christian - OS ETA]

Netters,

thanks for your comments:

-) the flight was in LOGF Austria (Europe)
-) I build an will have to register the airplane in Austria under the
following conditions:
-) 51 percent like with the FAA
-) extensive 60 page test protocols to complete
-) 50 hours total test flight time
-) noise certificate
-) and a flight characteristics review by the local authority
-) we were trying to do the flight characteristics review last Wednesday 
-) review went ok expect for the inspector induced ground handling problem
and the longitudinal stability
-) next review is scheduled in 3 months (hopefully with a different
inspector)
-) the inspector never flew a KR before, his taildragger experience is
limited to PA18, but he did a test pilot course in the US.
-) if the authority inspector flies (I am already afraid of that happening
again) my airplane the Austrian government covers the insurance

my experience with the KR-2S/GPAS2180 plans build + belly board
-) first flight was done by another local authority inspector 1.Aug 2002 -
he overran the runway, slight prop damage
-) the next 5 flight hours were at an Air Force Base (12000ft runway) with a
retired Air Force pilot...super experienced and very interesting to work
with...using such a huge airfield is best to get to know the plane...
-) the remaining time to the 37 hours were flown by a glider tow pilot at a
1900ft long tar sealed airfield.
-) the glider tow pilot is also very experienced and he trained me on the KR
-) as of yet I have about 10 hours and I took off, flew and landed the KR
without my safety pilot interfering.
-) I still have to wait for the right timing to go for my real solo
-) the airplane is very easy and delightful however it is a handful once it
is on the ground.

Cheers
Christian
OE-VPD
http://www.members.aon.at/oevpd