Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Belarusian/Belorussian translation

[Yury Tarasievich]

Also, I still can't readily find on LO sites the 
authoritative description of the .PO based L10N 
process. Pootle isn't acceptable for the 
languages with the comparatively weak 
terminological base . In such cases it's common 
for everybody to translate just as one sees 
fit. Sasha's contribution on Pootle is already 
deviating from the terminology used in the 
existing Belarusian translation.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Belarusian/Belorussian translation

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 03/04/2011 09:53 AM, Sophie Gautier wrote:


3) The .PO technological cycle isn't documented comprehensively on LO
sites.


What do you mean by technological cycle? I've begin to write some

...

In this context, I'd expect something on the 
lines of:


(Provided your work is based on the .PO files 
set, )in order to have your updates integrated 
in the subsequent builds of the LO, you need to 
do the following:


1) Form the submitted material. (In this case, 
)The structure of the archived content (repeats 
the structure of the POT distribution) consists 
of the /po/ subdirectory, containing, in its 
turn, the further subdirectories, containing, in 
their turn, the .po files.


2) validate the .PO . Do the following: run 1, 
run 2. OK is when there's no output.


3) Archive the material. The material needs to 
be archived in the .tar.gz or . tar.bz2 or .zip 
format.


4) Submit the material. The following forms of 
submission are accepted:
4.1) Publishing the material on the internet 
(http or ftp), with the notification made to 
(one of )the following address(es)
4.2) Creating the issue ticket on the Bugzilla 
system and attaching the material
4.3) Emailing the material to (one of )the 
following address(es)


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Belarusian/Belorussian translation

[Yury Tarasievich]

Many thanks, Andras!

-Yury

On 03/04/2011 01:16 PM, Andras Timar wrote:
...

Initially we thought that l10n of LibreOffice 3.3 will be as simple as

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translations from Pootle pushed to git (for 3.4 beta2), bugs to fix

[Yury Tarasievich]

Also, same word in English may indeed relate to 
a different words in translation depending on 
context.


-Yury

On 04/19/2011 03:21 PM, Andras Timar wrote:
...

This is not a false positive. You need to translate Heading and Title
to different words, otherwise you'll have troubles with default styles
in the localized product. See for example


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] [ANN] LibreOffice 3.4.4 RC1 available

[Yury Tarasievich]

Will there be KeyID builds, possibly?

On 10/27/2011 12:38 PM, Thorsten Behrens wrote:
...

for 3.4.4 rc1, we're now uploading builds to a public (but

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] [ANN] LibreOffice 3.4.4 RC1 available

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 10/27/2011 06:35 PM, Andras Timar wrote:

No, 3.4.4 is stable. You can use an older KeyID build (3.4.0beta2),
strings are 99.99% percent the same.


Thanks. You should note, that that KeyID build 
can't be used directly on some systems:


$ ldd -r libpyuno.so
ldd: warning: you do not have execution 
permission for `./libpyuno.so'
undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_DecodeUTF8 
(./libpyuno.so)
undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_GetSize 
(./libpyuno.so)
undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_AsUnicode 
(./libpyuno.so)
undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_FromUnicode 
(./libpyuno.so)
undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_AsUTF8String 
(./libpyuno.so)

...

So I had to substitute the libpyuno.so for the 
one from today's 3.4.4 build.


Also, is there a possibility to have two 
instances of LibO from different installations 
(e.g., 3.4.4 and KeyID), running simultaneously? 
Right now if I have one running, starting 
another just activates the already running 
instance. Bit of a bother.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] PO files updated in Pootle for LibO 3.5

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 11/01/2011 10:08 AM, Andras Timar wrote:
...

You can still expect string changes, string freeze is due to Dec 19. Let
me know, if you have questions.

...

New templates are for 3.5. Do you expect a 
significant string changes in 3.4 series, though?


Yury


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[libreoffice-l10n] PO set custom comments?

[Yury Tarasievich]

Would it be possible to maintain a custom 
comments in PO files of the template set? Sort 
of what translate-toolkit utils add, # (pofilter)?


The use I have in mind for that right now is 
keeping meta-information, e.g., hints for 
translators. Sort of: the term XYZ in this 
record relates to record ID4 (e.g., 
namedlg.src#RID_SCDLG_NAMES.STR_HEADER_RANGE.string.text) 
or translate in line with ID1, ID2, ID3 or 
option name, not command.


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] PO set custom comments?

[Yury Tarasievich]

I was rather referring to the possibility of 
'just' having extra comments associated with 
certain 'strings' and kept there.
Would this be equivalent to the introduction of 
extra source code? What serves as a master-copy 
of (en-US) templates then, actually, a Pootle or 
PO set?


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] PO set custom comments?

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 11/08/2011 01:52 PM, Yury Tarasievich wrote:

I was rather referring to the possibility of

...
Just after sending, saw Andras' answer to 
Martin. Scratch my questions, as the problem is 
of another scale than I thought.


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] cryptic english

[Yury Tarasievich]

If you ask for the meaning, it's:

In OOO internal representation, a cell which 
spans the rows is represented by nested table.
In wiki representation, a cell which spans the 
rows is represented by column and row spans.


That's the reason why you can't export cells 
which span the rows to a wiki format.


Yury

On 11/27/2011 03:52 PM, Olivier Hallot wrote:

Hi

Can someone improve or rephrase the following
string:

wikiformats.xhp#par_id8253730.help.text

OpenDocument and especially LibreOffice
represent tables that have joined cells that
span rows as tables with nested tables. In
contrast, the wiki model of table is to declare
column and row spans for such joined cells.


Thanks



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] [ANNOUNCE] Locale data date acceptance patterns, localizers HEADS UP please :)

[Yury Tarasievich]

For Belarusian, D.M with no more than two digits 
per part might do (is the two-digit limit 
enforcable?).


Actually, it'd be better to have possibility of 
switching off the feature altogether, across 
the installation, as the traditional fractional 
part separator /comma/ tends quite often to be 
substituted by the /dot/, in these times.


Historically, it was often D/M (D in Arabic 
numerals, M in Roman).


Yury

On 01/12/2012 03:43 PM, Eike Rathke wrote:

In order to get rid of the annoying accept every input as date that
might resemble some date in almost any locale behavior I recently
implemented locale dependent date acceptance patterns that need to be

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] [ANNOUNCE] Locale data date acceptance patterns, localizers HEADS UP please :)

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 01/17/2012 05:23 PM, Eike Rathke wrote:

On Tuesday, 2012-01-17 07:41:42 +0200, Yury Tarasievich wrote:



Actually, it'd be better to have possibility of switching off the
feature altogether, across the installation, as the traditional
fractional part separator /comma/ tends quite often to be
substituted by the /dot/, in these times.


I'm not sure I understand. If you're saying that people tend to input
decimal numbers as #.# instead of #,# then better not define the D.M
date acceptance pattern to prevent confusion, and a #.# input will just
be a textual string. Is that what you meant?


No, no. Just that these times some people 
(who've taken pains to learn computer, for 
example) tend to use *both* traditional /comma/ 
and non-traditional /dot/ indiscriminately. Sort 
of, putting /dot/ in decimal separator place, 
because it's so in computer.


E.g., once upon a time I myself wanted a quick 
spreadsheet or something, and began to enter 
numbers with /dot/ (what blessed difference 
does it make?). Imagine an annoyment when my 
inputs were one by one converted to dates (what 
about user working on an installation without a 
favourite locale?) And then I had to hunt for 
the switch-off, because the first place I turned 
to was in Preferences-OOO-General, and there 
wasn't anything about this besides the 
interpret two-digit year as.


Now, I've noticed that guys from ru_RU team 
requested D/M/ and D.M., precisely for that 
reason, I believe (/slash/ is, of course, a 
traditional symbol for a fraction or division 
sign; single /dot/ is handier to have just as a 
fractional part separator).


But, in fact, both forms are somewhat 
counterproductive, because these 1) are not 
guessable and will require separate learning by 
the user (nobody without specifically learning 
those will enter one of the sequences 
deliberately), and 2) are anyway two digits away 
from the short form of the date (DD.MM.YY).


Of course, if the functionality is there, 
anyway, and has to be fed something, even such 
not-quite-intuitive forms will do. *In fact, I 
hereby request D/M/ and D.M. for the be_BY, 
please.*


But it would be ever so better to have a 
possibility for computer to not second-guess at 
all, as such guesses might even be culturally 
irrelevant.



Historically, it was often D/M (D in Arabic numerals, M in Roman).


With roman numbers that wouldn't work. We could define a D/M pattern,
but input would have to be in Arabic numerals.


No need to, as it was historical example, anyway.

Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] [ANNOUNCE] Locale data date acceptance patterns, localizers HEADS UP please :)

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 01/18/2012 03:50 PM, Eike Rathke wrote:
...

But it would be ever so better to have a possibility for computer to
not second-guess at all, as such guesses might even be culturally
irrelevant.


... I'm confused now, does be-BY want incomplete date patterns, yes or
no?


Yes. Sorry.

And also it wants a possibility to switch off 
incomplete date recognition completely? Is 
this doable?


Thanks!

Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] [ANNOUNCE] Locale data date acceptance patterns, localizers HEADS UP please :)

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 01/19/2012 11:46 PM, Eike Rathke wrote:


And also it wants a possibility to switch off incomplete date
recognition completely? Is this doable?


No (not yet?)  Best would be to implement an editable list of not
auto-generated patterns, so the user could add/remove to her likes.

...

Well, I really believe we could do without 
another editable list in the auto-correction. :)


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] contribute in Korean translation

[Yury Tarasievich]

Generally speaking, producing the quality 
translation is as much a function of
formal (self-)training and hard work as 
producing the quality code.
Just being native speaker (and I'm sort of 
sadly privileged to know the emptiness of terms 
such as this) is not enough.
Least of all is it a function of being eager 
and (or) available.


Yury

On 07/20/2012 03:54 PM, Michael Bauer wrote:

A suggestion in general, arising from this -
perhaps locale leaders should be under some
common-sense review every 6 months or something,
to see if they're active and if not, see if
someone else is up for taking on the job. It's a
bit of a first-come-first-serve at the moment
(understandably, for new locales) but there
seems to be little in the way structures to deal
with dormant leaders or indeed rogue leaders.
Just had such a problem on VLC.


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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: /be/ team, coordinator privileges

[Yury Tarasievich]

Right, thank you.

On 08/26/2012 07:24 PM, Rimas Kudelis wrote:

I just gave Mikalai admin rights on /be/. Now
there are two users with such privileges: him
and sasha.


Yury

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[libreoffice-l10n] bibliography entries and formatting

[Yury Tarasievich]

I'd appreciate a quick answer on l10n-related 
aspect of bibliography index (not involving 
exhaustive source digging):


The default set of bib entries types (Article, 
Book etc.), with their default formattings -- is 
it programmed in or, possibly, put as a xml-form 
somewhere in a system template file?


The built-in bib processing and formatting does 
not really fit in well with the local, 
well-established requirements for bib (GOST 7, 
as a matter of fact); involves too much of extra 
work. And yes, I know of Zotero (and a few of 
other similar packages), and those do not really 
address my issue.


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] [ANNOUNCE] LibreOffice 4.0 translation has started

[Yury Tarasievich]

Will there be a pot files set for a download and 
non-pootle work?


On 11/19/2012 07:59 PM, Andras Timar wrote:

We have two LibreOffice branches, and there is no automatic migration

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] [ANNOUNCE] LibreOffice 4.0 translation has started

[Yury Tarasievich]

Thanks. BTW and FWIW, since 2.0 times, I was 
doing the migration with the pot2po.


On 11/19/2012 09:35 PM, Andras Timar wrote:

Yes, 
http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/libreoffice-4.0-en-US-2012-11-18.pot.zip

I recommend that you download your migrated po files from Pootle.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Do translations from Pootle go to nighly builds?

[Yury Tarasievich]

Building OpenOffice these days isn't SO 
difficult. Of course, you'd have to be prepared 
to spend some GBs and some bandwidth and some 
time building. Several gigs of storage, about 1 
gig of downloads, several hours on a fairly 
modern desktop.


Not a negligible effort, yes. I also wouldn't 
mind seeing the result of a quick fix, well, 
quickly.


So I'll reformulate Baurzhan's question.

Assuming one has:
1) binary build versioned A.B.C installed,
2) the POT set known to be used to compile the 
translation for the A.B.C,


could one proceed like following, assuring the 
IDs remains fixed:
1) pull the strings' IDs from .res files of the 
installation,
2) (re)build the updated .res files from the 
updated POT/PO set?


It's possible to do such thing with binary 
editor, so why not with LibO standard/SDK/... 
toolset?


Yury


On 02/05/2013 07:09 AM, Baurzhan Muftakhidinov 
wrote:

Hello,

Assuming that I have a full git copy of libreoffice's core repository,
(and a .zip snapshot of translations repo)
can I build a langpack for my language only?
Is it necessary to build the whole LibreOffice?

Regards.

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 4:20 PM, Andras Timar tima...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

Translations were updated for LibreOffice 4.0.0 beta2, rc1, rc2. Next
comes rc3, then 4.0.1 rc1, rc2 and so on. Basically you get updated
language pack in every second week. If you need it more frequently,
you can build LibreOffice yourself.

Best regards,
Andras


On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Dashamir Hoxha dashoho...@gmail.com wrote:

I think that the important question is how to test the translations.
I asked this question more than a year ago and there was no answer.
So, we just have to bear with this and try to do our best for the rest.

Dashamir

Lior Kaplan kaplanl...@gmail.com wrote:


They go manually into the source control and from there to the builds.
Andras does the commit before official builds (beta, RC), not on a daily
basis.

Kaplan

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Baurzhan Muftakhidinov 
baurthefi...@gmail.com wrote:


Hello,

I am working on Kazakh localization of LibreOffice, on official Pootle
server.

And I was wondering how to test these translations?

I have installed nightly build of LO. But it seems like translations do
not go
to nightly builds of localization packs.

Thanks,

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Do translations from Pootle go to nighly builds?

[Yury Tarasievich]

Well, yes, kinda, provided you can spare the cycles.
I'm somewhat surprised, though, that nobody else 
replied to that.


Yury

On 02/25/2013 08:31 AM, Baurzhan Muftakhidinov 
wrote:

Hello,

I kinda solved this issue by making a nightly builds of LO 4.0,
at each build I pull zip file for my language from pootle with latest
translations,
and replace old translations.

Build takes ~8 Hours on my hardware


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

[Yury Tarasievich]

In a modern world, I think it might even be the 
time to do away with the locale-language 
connection. Even the locale data regulation span 
might be reduced somewhat.


More, with the major culture-data-employing 
entities (CLDR, Google, what-have-you) all 
having their outlooks competitively grown by 
crowdsource, it's becoming progressively more 
inconvenient to rely on the traditional 
locale-based ways to do things.


E.g., personally, I'm not thrilled when google 
constantly tries to force some off-beat -- 
what's worse, unmodifiable -- version of 
Belarusian on me if I'm accessing it from 
geographical location in Belarus.


Topic-wise, it's not always convenient to have 
locale dictating some of the choices in OOO 
components -- what is to be gained these days 
from the locale's default currency (eh?) field 
or from locale's language field? Or one might 
want to prepare a paper for a journal founded on 
quite a different conventions for what a 
thousand separator is.


To conclude, it's seems reasonable to expect of 
a person installing to know one language of 
choice and so to offer the choice of 
installation process language. It seems 
reasonable to expect the language of UI and help 
also to be a subject of preference. And that's 
that, really. No second-guessing anything else, 
please?


On 03/12/2013 01:18 AM, Michael Bauer wrote:

This reminds me a bit of Android actually. I use
an app called custom locale to get around the
frustrating force-locale issue in order to force
various apps to show up in Gaelic but that
aside, it has a bizarre impact on the weather
app. It cause the app to fluctuare between
English and Gaelic city/town names. Some days I
get Glasgow, some days I get Glaschu - even
though AFAIK the app hasn't been localized (just
the standard weather app that comes with my

...

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[libreoffice-l10n] default default template

[Yury Tarasievich]

I understand this isn't the first time the 
question comes up, but:


Everybody knows any template file may be set 'as 
default'.


Is there any way to access the 'default default' 
template, the one which the documents with empty 
'template' property refer to? All those 
undeletable style definitions have to come from 
somewhere?


Method using XML editors and binary editors 
would be okay, too. :)


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] [BUG] Fomula SYD description

[Yury Tarasievich]

Might be the English descriptions for Calc 
functions were initially translated, at least 
partially, from German.


-Yury

On 07/20/2013 11:31 PM, Mihovil Stanic wrote:

Dana 20.7.2013. 18:31, Mirosław Zalewski je

...

Personally, I favor precise and hermetic
language. People who need certain
information will understand; people who don't,
they don't care.


I'm also in favor of writing it in language
which people who needs it will understand. But
some descriptions are complicated without reason.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] [BUG] Fomula SYD description

[Yury Tarasievich]

But what about providing some clues in the help 
for those who know what they want but are 
unacquainted with the developing system in the 
first place? Your approach leaves too high entry 
threshold.


Continuing with the Calc functions, I might know 
what statistical distributions are but to find 
the concrete function I'd still turn to the 
search function, to which I'll feed a set of 
plain English words which I would expect to be 
in description.


-Yury

On 07/21/2013 03:17 PM, Mirosław Zalewski wrote:

On 21/07/2013 at 10:26, Krunoslav Šebetić kruno0...@gmail.com wrote:


Precision doesn't mean it has to be hermetic. People how know, don't
need help. Don't you find contradictory to write _help_ in hermetic
language?


Yes, no and no.

First thing: by hermetic I mean understood by people with some preliminary
knowledge about certain subject.

Precise language does not have to be hermetic, agreed. But being hermetic is
often the most efficient way to precisely communicate what you mean. Moreover,
it is generally safe to use, because it is highly unlikely that someone
without presumed knowledge will even look there.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

That's a difficult one to keep track of. With no 
meta-info in POT/PO base. E.g., this has been 
corrected in /be/ for years, but after the 
recent massive changes sort of crept in again.


Indeed, what do we do now?

-Yury

On 07/22/2013 11:04 PM, Sophie wrote:

egrep -A3
(STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

Just change the *_HEADLINE_BASE one to something 
like *, main one.
You do not commonly use that style from UI, 
anyway, that's the root node for the headings 
settings.


-Yury

On 07/22/2013 11:40 PM, Mihovil Stanic wrote:
...

I can try to change translation on one of those
strings but it will look bad in UI.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

The change I suggested sounds better in, well, 
East Slavonic languages.


Come to think of it, and thanks for reminding, 
the *_TITEL one also might be usefully expanded 
to smth. like Showname of the document.


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 08:57 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

Hi Yury, *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Yury Tarasievich
yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com wrote:

Just change the *_HEADLINE_BASE one to something like *, main one.
You do not commonly use that style from UI, anyway, that's the root node for
the headings settings.


Yes, but main one is misleading and IMHO wrong.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of 
Heading Base Style.


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading - Heading Base Style
2) Title - Document title

And yes, other root (not-for-end-user) styles 
might be changed on the lines of (1), too. 
Wouldn't hurt, would reduce confusion. However, 
such change would quite an undertaking, as the 
basic set of stylenames is hardcoded in source. 
I don't see it happening...


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:54 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
The style thats called Title is not the base
style of the headings, it's rather the
document/book title.
Since there are other styles based on Heading
could we run into trouble if we change the name?

If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then
what about other styles that serve as base
styles?
For example: Index, Caption, List.
Other base styles that is used more as a normal
styles includes Text body, Table Contents.

Should it be a question for UX-advise?

/Niklas

Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of
Heading Base Style.

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...






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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

Better comprehensibility would also be good.
The Title-Name of the document variant might 
also be considered for (2).


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 02:42 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading - Heading Base Style
2) Title - Document title
If the only problem is same translation for
Heading and Title my proposal is change only
Title to Document Title. The other should
stay as is.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Yury Tarasievich]

Would such comment be a solution, really?

For one, PO fileset is local. Work put there is 
being constantly lost, if slowly.


Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the root 
source of English strings?

Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 05:35 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
...

And yes, a comment in the po file is one way to avoid that. And yes,
not using the translated names as internal IDs of course is better. It
will confuse the heck out of users to have two styles with the same
name, with no way to distinguish them. But at least the document state
would stay consistent. So you would still need the additional
checks/hint for translators.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

'Title', 'Heading', 'Name of the document' -- 
all these are good and bad. That string (being 
the label for the 1st field on the 2nd tab 
'Description' in Document properties) is too 
vague in its purpose and use, anyway. And it 
seems it's a rudiment from times of restrictive 
filenames, never set deliberately.


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 04:46 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:



2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com
mailto:yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com

Better comprehensibility would also be good.
The Title-Name of the document variant
might also be considered for (2).


I don´t think so as Christian explained:

The TITEL one is for the Document Title, The
title of a book that
usually only appears once at the beginning/on
the cover of the
document, or also used as chapter title.

So if this is document title, it´s not de
document name. That might even be confuse
because of I also understand Name of document
as Filename.

Regards


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 02:42 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
 Actually, I mean changing both:
 1) Heading - Heading Base Style
 2) Title - Document title
If the only problem is same translation for
Heading and Title my proposal is
change only
Title to Document Title. The other
should
stay as is.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 07/23/2013 06:48 PM, Sophie wrote:
...

Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the
root source of English strings?
Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?


The latest pot file is published here by Andras
http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/

Some of us do not use Pootle for translation or
as a repository.


Yes, us for one. :) That's why I'm asking: what 
is the definitive source for the English strings 
and their context? E.g., in the pre-split days 
there was SDF root source and POT fileset was a 
derivative.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 07/23/2013 07:23 PM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

SDF is deprecated - POT files are generated directly from code, and PO
files are directly checked back into code.


So where would the comment come from after the 
re-generation?


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

My cryptic point is: the terse string 'Title' 
(having ID *_TITEL) in this particular case is 
not only uninformative, but also is capable of 
producing an error after translation.


Hence, it'd be good not only to obtain 
divergence of English originals for this and for 
*_HEADLINE_BASE, but also to put into *_TITEL 
something more informative.


Therefore, suggestions to the tune of 'Name of 
the document' or even 'Heading of the document' 
(to clearly indicate it's not about filename, 
but about some sort of key entry).


BTW, Help, at least in 3.6.7, contains precious 
nothing on this string.


-Yury


On 07/23/2013 08:50 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Yury Tarasievich
yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com wrote:

'Title', 'Heading', 'Name of the document' -- all these are good and bad.


No - in this context Name of the document is simply wrong for either
of the two strings.

And honestly: What is your point? You throw in random strings from
other places, but I seriously fail to see your point.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Yury Tarasievich]

So effectively such placing of the comments is a 
thing of future, relying on several changes in 
the technological process (comments proper + 
toolkit refactored)?


I was more interested in what might be done in 
that matter sort of now and read your message 
from a wrong perspective.


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 07:40 PM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com:


So where would the comment come from after the re-generation?



I have written that already in another mail - from the code, from the
same place where the string comes. There should be some refactoring of
the toolkit to get pot files generated, of course.

Lp, m.



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Leading - translate tip

[Yury Tarasievich]

That's a term from lead blocks typography times. 
Means always add fixed amount *between* the text 
lines. As that sort of the specialized 
terminology went out of use somewhat, yes, it's 
rather hard to translate meaningfully and tersely.


-Yury

On 07/26/2013 11:48 AM, Mihovil Stanić wrote:

Hi all,

Just wanted to give you heads up on this word
since some of you maybe translated it wrong
(like me).

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Selection from in Pivot table - propose of changing English string

[Yury Tarasievich]

Make it Source cells, better.

-Yury

On 09/02/2013 12:41 AM, Mirosław Zalewski wrote:
...

LibreOffice Calc, main pivot table window (Data → Pivot table →
Create... with at least two cells selected; skip first window), in
expandable part of window (More button) .

What:
Label for very first input box - Selection from.

Change to:
Source or Data source

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Advice on translating large Odt documents

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 10/11/2013 11:26 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
...

OmegaT sounds like the main tool i was looking for.

...

I feel I still ought to warn you from my own 
experience.


Yes, OmegaT is, /de facto/, the only serious 
tool of description available open-sourcely (and 
not tied-in into some specific context).


However, OmegaT's automation may covertly 
skew/corrupt the result when working with object 
having complicated structure, as I learned to my 
own detriment when trying to apply OT to the LO 
PO files set.


I believe the root reason for that is 
segment-based translation for which OT was 
initially created. This is from memory so there 
are no more details.


I understand you'll translate (monolithic) LO 
documents so you'll likely be okay, but still, 
beware. :) Backup early etc. :)


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Advice on translating large Odt documents

[Yury Tarasievich]

In fact, I believe I've seen an OOO/LO add-on 
for parallel (segment-by-segment) translation. 
It was called translator's friend or in the 
similar vein. I didn't try it.


-Yury

On 10/12/2013 09:49 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
...

Firefox has a lot of different add-ons that are quite good MTs.  Quite a few 
combine

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Advice on translating large Odt documents

[Yury Tarasievich]

Ah, I found the reference to this add-on in my 
notes. It's named 'translation table' :), and 
it's function isn't exactly CAT (for which 
functionality authors refer to Anaphraseus 
add-on for OmegaT :), just a two-column segment 
layout helper (still very useful for what you 
seem to have in mind). In fact, I think I'll 
have a go with it myself.


http://extensions.libreoffice.org/extension-center/translation-table

As for the automation, you 'tend to not to' 
(commendable :) but may still end having relied 
(or not been careful) too much. Just like I did :).


-Yury

On 10/12/2013 01:28 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
...

I've not heard of translators friend before
but it sounds useful.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Advice on translating large Odt documents

[Yury Tarasievich]

Tom, Thomas,
From what I can see in the code, Anaphraseus 
seems to be at least partially self-contained 
CAT (relying on OO for UI functionality (?)), 
and so the OmegaT reference in the 'Translation 
table' annotation looks somewhat bogus.


On the other hand, Anaphraseus definitely knows 
about OmegaT, and seems to be capable of two-way 
exchange with OT's TM via TMX format.


Tom,
the TT looks just like helper with layout for 
segment-by-segment translation. Something like 
OmegaT's main screen.


All this gleaned just from looking into the 
code/jars. I'm not yet *installing* any of 
these, as I want to keep my already cluttered 
installation fucntional. :)


-Yury

On 10/12/2013 03:40 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
...

Does Anaphraseus do the same job?  Is it also
OpenSource?  Would it be better to go with that?
  Does it look like the Translation Table
Extension avoids needing a separate 3rd party
tool and just does the whole job inside
LibreOffice?


Translation

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] string freeze has been broken in libreoffice-4-1

[Yury Tarasievich]

The translate-toolkit which I suppose is used in 
Pootle, is intelligent enough to migrate the 
content based on the combination of msgid and 
identifier (in msgcomment), but not intelligent 
to pass on the result as a 'sure thing', only as 
a fuzzy hit. You'd still have to go through the 
fuzzies manually and 'approve'. Still takes time 
but no big problem.


But when identifiers change, there is nothing 
sensible at all translate-toolkit might do, and 
you've got to work manually through lots of 
'best guesses', re-translating, sort of.


-Yury

On 11/06/2013 06:23 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:

On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 02:10:15PM +0100, Andras Timar wrote:

Hi Sérgio,

On 2013.11.06. 1:11, Sérgio Marques wrote:

Hi Andras,

I´ve run Update from templates and now I have 205 words in sbasic
and 470 in shared. Is this ok?

These are to many changes from a brach that it is supposed to be freezed.



Well, we could have avoided re-translating the 470 words in shared,
because the translatable strings have not changed, only identifiers.
That's a pity. If only Pootle were more intelligent, and distinguished
tags from text...


Can you elaborate on this issue?


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] translating dialogs using OmegaT

[Yury Tarasievich]

That is all fine, but be advised that OT if used 
incautiously may insert lots of untranslated 
strings into the result. First it's all dandy, 
next moment you're looking at 20% of English 
strings in your product.


After all, OT isn't the specialised UI 
translation tool like kbabel, poedit, and virtaal.


-Yury

On 11/30/2013 09:56 AM, Milos Sramek wrote:
...

I've tried to use OmegaT for translation - it
can provide reference to 4.1 and in general it
significantly speeds up the procedure

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Some hickups in English strings

[Yury Tarasievich]

Integrals have top/bottom indices (upper and 
lower integration limits, strictly speaking); 
these are aligned with 'int' sign.


Super-/sub- scripts indices denote other things 
and are drawn to the side of what they are 
indexes of.


Yury

On 01/04/2014 05:14 AM, Sérgio Marques wrote:

And another one:

File: starmath/source.po
Context: commands.src RID_INT_FROMX_HELP string.text
Comments: SCvrE

Integral Subscript Top should be Integral Subscript Bottom


But what I really loved to see was xxx with Top Index, xxx with Bottom
Index and xxx with Top/Bottom Index instead of xxx Superscript Top,
xxx Subscript Bottom and xxx Sup/Sub script.

It´s easier to understand (I think)

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Untranslated strings in Labels and Business Cards dialog

[Yury Tarasievich]

These look like standard names for stick-on 
labels (?).
In harmonisation practive, the standards' codes 
(cyphers) usually are only transcribed, indeed, 
but titles *are* translated. How else? :)


Yury

On 03/31/2014 08:18 AM, Andras Timar wrote:


You will see strings like CIL-W227 Diskette Face or CIL-W224
Audio Cassette. I think, they should be translatable as well ... ;)



In my opinion, these are product names and therefore should not be translated.


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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 11/30/2014 05:13 AM, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos 
wrote:

...

In case you guys didn’t know, Apple [1], Microsoft [2] and GNOME [3]
are all recommending the use of typographical apostrophes and
quotation marks, among other characters that have been historically

...

Said recommendations, while formaly correct, are 
subverted by the fact that there are no commonly 
accessible methods to keyboard-input all those 
fancy glyphs.


In OpenOffice (and in Word?) you may have 
add-ons, auto-correcting some of those cases. 
Otherwise than that you'd have to install 
smarty-pants (often, pain-in-the-..., too) 
keyboard input correctors or resort to 
mouse-clicking in the glyph tables.



I am actually planning to update the rest of strings in LibreOffice to
use the correct characters, but I guessed I had already annoyed the
other translators too much for this version, so that would be in 4.5.


So you will still annoy the translators, only more.

Program UI isn't a typography showcase. Why not 
leave the pragmatic simplification which serves 
it purpose? Does it break anything?


Yury

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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 11/30/2014 11:23 AM, Rimas Kudelis wrote:

2014.11.30 07:38, Yury Tarasievich rašė:

...


And if you use Windows and want to make inputting these characters even
more convenient, you can always customize your keyboard layout adding
missing typographical  symbols to the AltGr (or any other) layer. Here's
a free tool to do that:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx.


Well, as Adolfo tells us, it's bah to Windows 
users. However, Linux's en_US keymap (which I'm 
using right now) also does not have any of 
mentioned glyphs on the compose key.


I'm heavily using several fancy glyphs input 
add-ons in LO itself, and I tell you, it's not 
all fun.



Program UI isn't a typography showcase. Why not leave the pragmatic
simplification which serves it purpose? Does it break anything?


I agree this will be annoying, because at the very least, the localizers
will have to re-approve a lot of their old translations when these
changes land. At least in the case of don't though, maybe this change
could be automated, if we ask Andras or Christian nicely? :)


I can guess with some confidence that having to 
redo apostrophes in, like, thousand strings by 
hand (and you can't automate, apostrophe's use 
in technology being what it is) just to have 
correct characters in the UI feels more like a 
slap in a face.


What's strictly incorrect in straight 
apostrophe, anyway?
Is any REAL purpose actually served by this 
change? Like, will anybody notice this or 
appreciate this or-so-nice touch in the computer 
screen material?
Will this conceal the fact that LibreO/ApacheOO 
itself isn't that great in typography in the 
documents it produces?


Yury

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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 11/30/2014 12:07 PM, Yury Tarasievich wrote:
...

What's strictly incorrect in straight
apostrophe, anyway?

...

Anyway, here's an idea for you guys about to 
suffer from this: diff the en_US source before 
and after apostrophe nice-fication, then create 
a program which looks at the apostrophe-change 
IDs only in source, and at the corresponding IDs 
in your translation, and does only the 
apo-nice-fication of the translation (straight 
confirmation, for that matter) if the diff boils 
down to apostrophes.


Shouldn't be too difficult, 10 years ago I was 
able to throw together AWK script doing 
approximately this for the Opera UI translation 
and maintain win/unix pair for a while with 
(almost) no pain.


Yury

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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 11/30/2014 02:33 PM, Jesper Hertel wrote:


Just because you do not like an idea or are
afraid of its consequences there is no reason to
shoot it down with sarcasm or other violent
methods. That is never helpful.


Oh dear. What to do then, if one doesn't like 
the idea and does NOT in fact have fears, only 
dislike for the extra work for close to none 
good reason?


I think sarcasm is valid here, likewise shooting 
down that which flies where it shouldn't.


Anyway, I have suggested the *technology* of 
dealing with the problem generally, for ALL 
translations here. I have been exploiting the 
principle for years, back then.


Yury

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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 11/30/2014 09:30 PM, Akerbeltz.org wrote:
...

Yes, we're translating pro bono publico but it's still a callous way of treating
donated lifetime.

...

Did you notice how I've left out that angle? :)
And 'callous' is the right word here (incorrect 
apostrophes!).


Yury

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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10

[Yury Tarasievich]

In fact, this is a good idea, not in sarcastic 
way whatsoever. Point the translation origin to 
the uncorrcted, un-nicefied English (updated 
only if the semantics change). Make production 
en_US a 'translation' of this.


Yury

On 11/30/2014 08:13 PM, Olivier Hallot wrote:
...

I suggest to create a new entry in Pootle, named en-US so that we get a
translation from Liboish to English. Other languages translates directly
from Liboish and we are all happy not to redo our work.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] New(?) colors in UI svx

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 12/01/2014 07:07 AM, Donald wrote:

In the UI: svx/source/dialog.po there are some colors to be translated:
Tango green, Tango red and others with Tango in the name. What is the
significance of the word Tango? Is it part of the color name or is it
software or something else?


Tango scheme.


What colors are Sunburst, Brownie, Sunset and Clay?


Why not look on those in the LibO itself? These 
are artist descriptive names anyway.


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 12/01/2014 01:11 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Yury Tarasievich
yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com wrote:

On 11/30/2014 11:52 PM, Rimas Kudelis wrote:

And why is not anyone (besides me) discussing automation, of that same
problem, too?


Probably because there is nothing to discuss as it has already been
explained that it can be done/to what extend it can be done/how it can
be done.


Excepting whether anything actually would be 
done, and by whom.


Right now the issue is being gracefully shoveled 
off into the translators' hands.


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Follow-up on en_US changes

[Yury Tarasievich]

I may be completely misunderstanding this, but 
it seems to me the point is the en_US strings 
should be translations as well. That would put 
much needed damper on the changes introduced 
just because they can be introduced. As a 
secondary gain, translations are (hopefully) 
created by folks with at least some native 
language preparation; right now master strings 
which anybody can write -- as I know from my 
own practice and from this list -- may be 
awkward in expression and/or convoluted in 
meaning (fixing which creates more work for 
everybody).


Yury

On 12/04/2014 02:58 AM, Jesper Hertel wrote:

2014-12-01 14:57 GMT+01:00 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com:

...

Some changes are necessary and the en_US version has to be maintained
too but that shouldn't have an impact or at least, as limited as
possible on the l10n work.

I do believe discussing the English strings are somewhat related to the
translation of them, so maybe because of that I fail to see a very sharp
division between them and the localization. The English strings are, in
principle, also a type of localization, I would say. They just have a much
higher authority, as they become the authoritative source for the rest of
the localizations.

...

Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Yury Tarasievich]

Those changes, while possibly worthwhile from 
en_US perspective, are not related to what 
localised interface looks like. Since version 2 
the workload in ui strings might easily 
constitute +100% of initial 25k. Did the ui 
change that much? No.


Yury

On 12/13/2014 03:22 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:00:45PM +, Michael Bauer wrote:

the nonsense around cosmetic changes to en-US


As a localiser, I find it worrying that “localisers” think that using
correct capitalisation or punctuation marks “nonsense cosmetics”, really
scary. I can understand people being annoying about changes in source

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Yury Tarasievich]

Not so feasible, I think.

Work based on another translation would very 
likely mean missing important nuances. 
Ironically, this was the case with English (!) 
in times of OO 2.0, when it was somewhat more 
instructive to look into German strings 
(originating from StarOffice) for the precise 
meaning of some financial maths terms.


Yury

On 12/13/2014 08:35 AM, Tom Davies wrote:


Earlier there was a suggestion of creating some
sort of buffer-language between English (US) and
all the other languages.

Is there a language that doesn't have so many
'little' changes that affect so much?  One that
gets all the translations done really fast?
Perhaps Spanish, Portugese (Br), German, French,
Italian?

If so might that be a better language to use as
the base-line to translate from?

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 12/14/2014 09:19 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
...

But that was not my point, I was complaining about people who think that
consistency, following linguistic rules and proper typography are usless
cosmetics. Regardless of how localisation will be done or what language is

...

Then you completely misunderstood the point of 
localisers, and defeated a strawman.


It's commendable to strive for proper typography 
in the source etc.


But the translation may have had the proper 
typography (for its language context) first 
time, couldn't it?


However, localisers (why did you quote the term, 
anyway?) have to redo the work already 
(properly) done, repeatedly. Reviewing and 
approving 1k of strings isn't peanuts, whatever 
one may think.


To put it into context assuredly familiar to you 
- how would you like to have to redo from 
scratch one specific curve in the font, 
verbatim, several times? Would it strike you as 
a not quite an optimal way to spend the time you 
dedicate to open projects?


And I have yet to see those technical marvels 
we've been promised will compensate for this 
problem (promised with lot of eff-ing at silly 
localisers, by the way).


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 12/14/2014 11:07 AM, Sophie wrote:
...

And I have yet to see those technical marvels we've been promised will
compensate for this problem (promised with lot of eff-ing at silly
localisers, by the way).


Hey, those scripts are done by people to help us, so don't shout on
them. We will discuss these heavy changes after the code/string freeze
with developers and designers. We have to find a way that allow to
maintain the sources without impacting the targets when it's not needed,
let's try to find a solution and keep working in a good mood.


But I do not shout at anybody. Do I?..

Just that I'll believe there are positive 
changes in this part of workflow, when I'll see 
an announcement going like (hyperbolised): 
We've corrected the fixed space use in 10k 
worth of strings, but don't worry, your 
translations won't be kicked out of release, if 
you'll not redo your 10k worth of translations 
by tomorrow.


Right now, I'd risk stating that for small teams 
the task begins to look more trouble than it's 
worth.


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes?

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 12/14/2014 11:59 AM, Rimas Kudelis wrote:

2014.12.14 02:43, jonathon wrote:

...

The more fundamental error is assuming that what is in source is
consistently en_US, or any other en_* variant.


It should be. You can look at it the other way around: anything that
gets in the source should consistently be en_US, not just
whatever_lingo_the_developer_had_in_mind.


Are the sources mentioned by Jonathon and by 
Rimas one thing or two different things?


I would say the source of translation should 
be only semantically correct, as regarding the 
functionality of the entity/activity it refers 
to. The en_US is just a translation in this 
regard, and activities regading, say, its 
typography tradition should be excluded from the 
lifecycle of non en_US translations.


That won't change anything w/r to the Help pages 
(in which the text itself is the entity), but it 
definitely relates to UI strings, which are sort 
of a primary step in localisation process.


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 12/14/2014 12:47 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:


I have been localising software for much longer
than I have been making fonts (or even writing
software) and I know that reviewing a few
hundred strings that were trivially changed is
not the end of the world. Usually the tool I'm
using (be it Pootle or Virtaal) would present me
of translation memory of this string which will
show the old source string and highlight the
differences from the current one, so it is just
few seconds to review, and one can review
hundreds of strings this way in a couple of
hours. Believe me, I have done it countess times
and I don't understand all the whining.


I consider that haughty disdain somewhat 
misplaced. Anybody is free to allocate a couple 
of hours of life as they please. Maybe to spend 
those on unpaid (quality) translation work.


However, it's not nice to treat a couple of 
hours of somebody else's life as throwaway 
resource.


It's not the case, too, that localisers (I see 
now your quotes use wasn't accidental) are some 
low-level plebes, allowed to play at translation 
and meanwhile ride on the coattails of the 
sky-high (LibO) popularity. These people do hard 
work and create the product (or product 
enhancement, if you please).


I think that attitude originates in widely 
spread misconception that anybody by virtue of 
speaking the language is automatically an expert 
in all issues related, (technical) translation 
included. Unlimited pool of free labour, as it were.


Mind you, I do not witness this light-hearted 
attitude to the unsolicited work in the software 
developers community, present product team 
included, for a very good reason, and I at least 
understand this completely.


Yury

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Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-l10n] Help text for MIDB

[Yury Tarasievich]

I won't pretend I understood the Chinese and 
Japanese cases, however, seems to me ALL this, 
or at least the most representative parts, 
should go into help, all languages, possibly not 
into the specific Basic function but into some 
separate subclause (handling the multi-byte 
codings?).
This shouldn't be considered a duplicate of 
the relevant standards, but an explanation of 
what is actually implemented in LO.


On 01/20/2015 04:32 PM, Naruhiko Ogasawara wrote:
...

I wonder if HELP should describe such a detail, though.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] vaguely formulated strings, procedure?

[Yury Tarasievich]

Re Khaled's comment, too:

Then, 'Standard', or, even, something to the 
tune of 'Standard for your language/input 
direction'?


Translators have to plod through myriads of 
those 'Default' strings, which may or may be not 
explained in help files.


-Yury

On 06/01/2015 11:04 AM, Andras Timar wrote:

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 9:54 AM, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote:

Yury Tarasievich wrote on 28-05-15 07:50:



E.g., in Writer's 'Edit paragraph style' dialog, 'Alignment' tab, 'Last
line' combobox (activated if 'alignment' is set to 'Justified'), the 1st
variant is 'Default'.


I happen to see the word 'Left' in 500beta1.
So maybe that one already has been improved?



It is Left, when you don't have CTL languages enabled. Otherwise it is
Default, because in case of RTL paragraph, it will be aligned to right
to to left, when you choose Default.


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[libreoffice-l10n] vaguely formulated strings, procedure?

[Yury Tarasievich]

Hello all,

What is the correct (and productive) workflow 
procedure if the UI string is just vaguely 
formulated? Not incorrect as such, just vague, 
inconcrete, overly cryptic?


E.g., in Writer's 'Edit paragraph style' dialog, 
'Alignment' tab, 'Last line' combobox (activated 
if 'alignment' is set to 'Justified'), the 1st 
variant is 'Default'.
Choosing the 'Default' there left-aligns the 
last line of the justified paragraph (predicted 
by the graphic preview, too). This string is 
definitely asking to be changed to 'Left'. There 
are similar examples, I believe.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] templates updated in master projects (for 5.0 release)

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 06/29/2015 04:13 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Yury Tarasievich
yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com wrote:

Regardless of non-trivial effort and commendable result,


I think trivial effort :-)


Not that trivial, surely.




I'm aghast, guys.

So that's how manpower is spent these days in text-processing projects of LO
calibre?


Don't understand what you mean with that.

A volunteer provided a list of characters and a corresponding
replacement table -  that is not rocket science...


Serving the transition from language to pictograms? Pointing and grunting
next, I suppose (oh, it's there already, androids).


People like their emojis. I myself also wouldn't necessarily enter
them using autocorrect codes, but offering that easy way doesn't hurt,
does it?


God forbid me telling noble selfless volunteers 
what to do with their time :) (however, I do 
share the irony of Bruce Sterling, 
open-source-wise).


However, I'd like to see the manpower spent more 
wisely -- as there are industry-grade 
mis-functions in LO yet.


This is my personal opinion to which I, too, am 
entitled, I believe. If not as a muck-common 
user, then as a (very very minor) contributor.



Sorry for that rant, I'm envisioning doing the 1,5k of these.


If you think it is stupid to translate, just don't translate and reuse
the english one.


Not stupid as such. But surely it could be, 
well, postponed indefinitely, or something.



Or ignore altogether if the count of untranslated words doesn't bother you.


Oh, but it does. It sets me back 5% in UI 
strings. I'm maintaining a certain translation 
(such as it is) for 10 years now, virtually alone.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] templates updated in master projects (for 5.0 release)

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 06/29/2015 11:53 AM, Mihkel Tõnnov wrote:

2015-06-29 11:40 GMT+03:00 Serg Bormant borm...@gmail.com:

emoji autocorrect file, what is it exactly? Do we need to translate

See here ;) https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Emoji


Regardless of non-trivial effort and commendable 
result, I'm aghast, guys.


So that's how manpower is spent these days in 
text-processing projects of LO calibre?
Serving the transition from language to 
pictograms? Pointing and grunting next, I 
suppose (oh, it's there already, androids).


Sorry for that rant, I'm envisioning doing the 
1,5k of these.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] What does mean "Search Formatted Display String"

[Yury Tarasievich]

Apologies, all, but shouldn't we "use the 
source" at this juncture?


All this sounds like guessing, and the likely 
outcome would be another wild-guess translation 
(well, translationS) -- in the spirit of MSword 
localisations, anyway. :)


-Yury

PS I don't have the blob in question on hand at 
the moment.


On 11/16/2015 11:27 PM, anne-ology wrote:

To me that line means -

...

From: Adolfo Jayme Barrientos 

...

2015-11-15 12:08 GMT-06:00 Mihkel Tõnnov :


I was wondering about its meaning as well, when I first saw the string.
Perhaps the wording could be improved so it would be clearer -- something
like "Match cell format"?


Suits me. +1
I’ll rename the option shortly, if no other suggestions come up.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: No-break space between number and percent sign done for locales listed in CLDR

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 13/06/16 11:58, Eike Rathke wrote:

On Friday, 2016-06-10 07:40:36 +0300, Yury Tarasievich wrote:

*Safer* to have no space there at all, and for Belarusian, too.

...

Anyway, programs neither help with entering the glyph, nor highlight its
non-breakability.


It's for display purposes only anyway, you don't have to enter a blank
when entering percentage values.


Right, and it's exactly the issue -- in most of 
the 'real world' fonts the U+202F isn't actually 
narrow (enough). And the redactors DO grumble. :)



However, I'll remove it from ru-RU and be-BY.


Thanks, and thanks for thinking ahead, too, even 
if it was a teensy bit overmuch :)


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] "Hit apply to update" string

[Yury Tarasievich]

Your explanation, while lingually flawless, 
would confuse the askers, too, I guess. :)


The string means that for updates to take effect 
one must press/click something (button?) 
labelled 'Apply'.


-Yury

On 01/18/2016 07:43 PM, anne-ology wrote:

Well, whoever typed this must have meant to type whatever would send
the message  ;-)

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] "Hit apply to update" string

[Yury Tarasievich]

My apologies, but I'd like to offer some 
corrections to this -- assuredly off-topic -- 
thread.


On 01/21/2016 01:15 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:


Interesting reaction but I am afraid we are bothing peope doing real work here.
Anne-ology, you and I are the ONLY three people top posting in this thread. The 
others seem to follow the netiquette. Are they out-dated? Are the majority of 
posters


It's not the top-posting that's the problem, the 
problem is the top-posting dragging the complete 
preceding thread with it.


The bottom-posting (or whatever it's called) can 
be bothersome just as well, if the quoter (or 
quoter's software) can't make the right choices 
about how to and what to... well, quote. In the 
winded discussions, always.


And may I remind you, that the breaks and 
indents (as well as the person's letteredness) 
aren't the netiquette topics?


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] "Hit apply to update" string

[Yury Tarasievich]

There are (still) lots of artifacts of a string 
kind in LO, I believe.


However, if you do not know the string is 
actually displayed, how do you know there is 
nothing appropriate to click?


Generally -- is there any way to mark the 
actually unused strings, so as to waste not the 
effort? Some script processing the sources?..


-Yury

On 01/19/2016 03:55 PM, Stanislav Horáček wrote:

I see my question should have been clearer - so: is the string
incorrect because there is no "apply" to be hit (and the string should
be modified), or am I missing anything?

Sorry for bothering the list with such a marginal string (which is
maybe even not shown in UI), but I don't like any blind translation.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] many fuzzy strings due to xlm tags move in 5.2 help files

[Yury Tarasievich]

By my estimates -- I'm looking at the kbabel 
stats, which aren't perfect, -- last three years 
(half 2013--end 2015) brought about 100% overall 
"change" (untranslatedness) in UI strings corpus 
(up to 30K units). Of course, this includes 
strings going fuzzy without real change in the 
content, but confirming fuzzy units is real 
work, still.


JFYI.

-Yury

On 19/03/16 21:02, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

It's an old story. Developers of OOo/LO think localizers are enjoying this
kind of manual work. As if it was a mandala or knitting.
So they rework tags every now and then, without caring about our feelings.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating without Pottle

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 20/08/16 13:07, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:


I would like to know if Libreoffice can be translated without Pottle. I


Yes, it's doable, and there are precedents of it 
being done that way.



or upload. Can the translation be done continuously? Or it is "block"
per release (a cycle)?


There is only a "cycle" of POT templates 
packages being updated (fairly rarely).

Look here:
http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/

-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Menu item wording

[Yury Tarasievich]

Does keyboard layout actually affect the (new) 
text paragraphs language setting?
On my Linux system I have three keyboard layouts 
set up and no check in the 'Ignore...' box and 
LO sets the text language just as it's set in 
the config.


On 16/11/16 13:20, Michael Bauer wrote:
...

Ok so it seems that one of my long-standing
bugbears has actually been fixed - the one where
LO keeps changing the language of the text
regardless of the default document language or
what you just set the page/paragraph to :D


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Some measurements are hard-coded in inches

[Yury Tarasievich]

That would be 4.5 points, in typographic 
measure, so no, shouldn't convert that (and 
please nobody start on there being two kinds of 
typographic points )).


Only I wonder what's measured that precisely, in UI?

On 22/12/16 22:39, Olivier Hallot wrote:


I found some measurements in inches in the UI. For example:

spacing.src RID_SVXSTRARY_SPACING Extra Small (1/16") itemlist.text

...

-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Some measurements are hard-coded in inches

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 24/12/16 16:54, Gabor Kelemen wrote:

Hi Yuri

This is on the new Page side pane. Under the Header and Footer sections
you can set the spacing using these preset values from the dropdown
list. There are similar values under the Format section for the page
margin (like Normal 1").

However when you set the spacing like this and then open the Page style
panel you see the spacing value represented in cm.


I see, thanks. But that would depend on the 
measurement unit selected, I guess.


I get all my spacings lovingly set in points 
converted to centimeters, which tells me nothing.


And some twenty years ago there already existed 
DTP apps, capable of remembering a separate 
measurement unit for the field.



I'd suggest to change these in the original strings to cm units, or even
to drop them entirely.


I'd say it's better to translate the 'intented' 
meaning in this case.




2016-12-23 13:07 keltezéssel, Yury Tarasievich írta:

That would be 4.5 points, in typographic measure, so no, shouldn't
convert that (and please nobody start on there being two kinds of
typographic points )).

Only I wonder what's measured that precisely, in UI?

On 22/12/16 22:39, Olivier Hallot wrote:


I found some measurements in inches in the UI. For example:

spacing.src RID_SVXSTRARY_SPACING Extra Small (1/16") itemlist.text

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fonts in "Book" style

[Yury Tarasievich]

Totally no need to bother with deeper sense of 
it, really.

Just translate it literally.
Same story with 'oblique'/'italic' dichotomy.

On 21/06/17 16:50, Olivier Hallot wrote:


"Book" font style seems to be a term/jargon used by the printing
industry, and careless translation may lead to mistake. Can somenone
shed some light here?


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] gettext and translations

[Yury Tarasievich]

I've used the .PO based workflow from the 
beginning of my OOO/LO L10N stint, and yes, 
you'd get those problems in such environment.


You'd just have to keep the IDs for strings 
translations' variants/exceptions/etc. separately.


That was how I was dealing with the problem, 
anyway -- last time I looked, there was no easy 
way to save this in .PO files created from the 
POT sets published by OOO/LO teams. Can't 
rightly remember, seems the extra info was lost 
in migration from POT set to POT set.


-Yury

On 01/06/17 22:45, Mihkel Tõnnov wrote:

2017-06-01 18:14 GMT+03:00 Sophie :

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Yury Tarasievich]

Seconding this. The project just throws away the 
l10n people man-hours (but just you try to get 
them dev guys to fix something in the code!).


That's not right, and in OSS you'd definitely 
want to pay attention to putting things right 
(the crypto-currency here!).


On 13/10/17 15:10, Michael Bauer wrote:
...

It's not funny. I don't expect paying for

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 16/10/17 16:00, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos wrote:
...

Because they have a better model [...]

...

Yes.


It might be helpful to know that there are plans to build automated
Pootle pushes [2], which in turn should give us much more frequent

...

I'd say things ought to be organised so that 
changes like case changes would NEVER create an 
*obligatory* workload, but... oh, well, let's 
hope for this, at least.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Yury Tarasievich]

You are talking wisely

On 16/10/17 13:47, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos wrote:

2017-10-13 7:45 GMT-05:00 Yury Tarasievich <yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com>:

Seconding this. The project just throws away the l10n people man-hours (but
just you try to get them dev guys to fix something in the code!).


What are you talking about? Developers are committing many patches per
day, even on holidays (see e.g. our GitHub Pulse or our dashboard).
This is a ridiculous accusation.


No. And you are turning things upside down.

Developers do much, providing they like what 
they do (are about to do). On the other hand, 
the important and visible functionality may sit 
there *virtually* broken for years (like, hey, 
ms word import/export involving formulas).


Returning to question at hand: people here are 
expressing their frustration because the actual 
workflow model allows for cascading workloads 
for everybody with very little rationale behind.


BTW, does developer side suffer from such kind 
of problem? Never, I believe. Everything is 
coordinated (and rightly so!)


Also, I've translated mozilla stack in my day, 
and I know it allows for *economising* 
translator's effort -- much of the content is 
replicated. And I've NEVER seen a 25-30% 
'update' of the kind we are talking about here.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Please read: minutes of ESC meeting

[Yury Tarasievich]

Just the marker char, providing its activator 
char wasn't changed. Then you could auto-change 
the translated string(s) -- provided there'd be 
no ambiguities in the translation (like extra 
pairs of chars starting with the old marker).


Should/would work even for activation char 
translated.


On 17/10/17 11:14, Krunose wrote:



On 17.10.2017 09:39, Yury Tarasievich wrote:


shortcut=autochange (change just the marker in
the translated)


You mean that system automatically replace
shortcut position or just character: _New : ~New
: N_ew : N~ew.

This could be tricky.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Please read: minutes of ESC meeting

[Yury Tarasievich]

Some thoughts for guys capable of implementing. 
Of course, I have no idea whether any of these 
are feasible.


So, change in English string (tEh original) 
brings some checks with the previous value:

1) capitalisation changed? set flag 1
2) shortcut markup changed (like _ to &)? set flag 2
3) typography changed (like ... to …)? set flag 3
4) something else which nobody in the world 
*needs* to react to?


Then, the flags for the strings are checked 
against the matrix of 'action values' for those 
flags and languages.


Just sketching:
'ru', caps=no_reaction, shortcut=autochange 
(change just the marker in the translated), 
typography=autochange (no error if there's no 
corresponding), words_changed=react (!)


No 'criticality' in the matrix means the new 
original is set with the 'NONCRITICAL' (not 
FUZZY!) flag (needs to be implemented, at least 
in the online l10n system?). The team would wish 
to see and check those changes, after all.

And even one 'criticality' sets the FUZZY flag, etc.

-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Yury Tarasievich]

Well, I'm 'out of loop' ATM, but thank you for 
your effort, the organising team, *really*. I 
understand all this's a difficult undertaking.


The problem (on which guys are commenting) is -- 
certain kinds of changes should never 
generate/cause an obligatory workload.
In your place (I know, it's easy to advise 'from 
sidelines'), I'd try to look at ways to automate 
this.


-Yury

On 16/10/17 16:05, Sophie wrote:


Did you read my mail reporting ESC minutes we had last week? Wasn't it
about scripting and the time we have to find to do it?
I'm weekly reporting l10n issues to the ESC, and if you want to join,
you are welcome too.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Please read: minutes of ESC meeting

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 18/10/17 12:31, Sveinn í Felli wrote:

I guess changes in quotation marks ('→" "→ˮ)
inside of text strings would fall into category 3)?


I'd say those, as culture-dependent, would merit 
a separate category. OTOH, ellipsis vs. 
three-dots is implementation-specific (so, #3).



One frequent case for category 4): When there's
a typographic symbol like an ' (apostrophe),


Apostrophe-to-doublequote definitely #3. 
Apostrophe-to-apostrophe (like, U+0027 to 
U+20xx)... *rather* #3.


In fact, there's no need to create a complete 
matrix of things typography-related, but rather 
those actually being implemented and the most 
likely scenarios.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: [Tuxpaint-i18n] Call for translation updates

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 03/12/17 17:46, Chris Leonard wrote:

I know this is off-topic for this list, but I assume many of you are also


Well, I know this is off-topic for this list, 
but I assume many of you are also wishing all 
kids of the world well, right?


So, is this such a good idea to hand kids a 
computer with painting application? Handling the 
motorics of real-world 
painting/sculpting/younameit develops the brain 
in specific areas.


Painting application of the kind I see on app's 
site, with all respect to author's work and 
intentions, does not. "Ages 3 to 12", for pete's 
sake!!


Shudder.

I should've cross-post this, but I rather won't.

-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: [Tuxpaint-i18n] Call for translation updates

[Yury Tarasievich]

The idea of handing a kid 'from 3 to 12' 
something like this is the sole reason for 
'shuddering'.


Of course, such outbursts as mine aren't really 
proper, so my apologies, all.


-Yury

On 04/12/17 15:46, Tom Davies wrote:
I haven't looked into it much so I don't know 

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LibreOffice 6.2 New Features video script for translations

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 29/01/19 12:25, Mike Saunders wrote:
> Sure -- I've added full section names to the EN version:

One good turn deserves another, could you please
redo with continued numbering? :)

>> without the context. E.g., #16: the
> "After this commit: * The initial search time went down from ~40 seconds
> to ~6 seconds"

So, it's, like, only "the search on internet
site with themes" is now faster. "Options"
dialog as such never was exactly "slow".

More clear now, thank you.

-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LibreOffice 6.2 New Features video script for translations

[Yury Tarasievich]

Guys, please add the components names to the
list points. E.g., I couldn't understand right
away the importance of #24, and I still don't
know what's #25 about.

#8--#10 are about the same change

Not all features/changes are comprehensible
without the context. E.g., #16: the
personalization dialog, how can it be "faster"?
was it "slow"?

On 28/01/19 15:31, Mike Saunders wrote:
> I'm making a video showing off the new features in the upcoming 6.2
> release. The script is here, for those who'd like to translate it:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Videos/6.2_New_Features_Script

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Better English term for Sidebar "decks"

[Yury Tarasievich]

The AOO wiki link (from where the term
supposedly came):

https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Sidebar#Decks

clearly shows that that 'deck' has the meaning
as in the 'deck of cards' (well, 'of panels').

So you might translate it as if it was a 'set
(of panels)' or a 'spread (of panels)' or


On 10/03/20 10:01, Ilmari Lauhakangas wrote:
> The word "deck" in "Sidebar deck" seems like a
> rather unintuitive term for translators. It
> mainly brings to mind the Star Trek Holodeck.
> Are we running an office suite or a (space)ship?










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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fakes

[Yury Tarasievich]

That kind of use of the word feels singularly 
inappropriate in the modernworld.

Likely to cause confusion, even indignation.

I mean, how come your program calls my manual 
numbering 'fake'?? It is 'unautomated' 
numbering, certainly, but 'fake'?


Isn't this taking a bit too much on ourselves?

On 28/08/2023 18:44, Milos Sramek wrote:


https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/swriter/01/accessibility_check.html


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Document Liberation Project flyer for translations

[Yury Tarasievich]

There was a lot of talk about how certain fonts 
look good or bad in certain writing systems.


Maybe I'm missing something, but were there any 
actual comments from people sort of representing 
those (non-Latin-based) writing systems?


-Yury

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